Should the service sector replace/supplement the manufacturing sector as a vehicle to build the middle class?

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mattbbpl

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Poll: Should the service sector replace/supplement the manufacturing sector as a vehicle to build the middle class? (16 votes)

Yes 38%
No 31%
I don't know 6%
Just let me see the other answers! 25%

With the angst around the loss of good paying manufacturing jobs, particularly in certain regions of the country, some economists have been discussing the possibility of shifting our supply of good paying but low skill jobs from the manufacturing sector to the service sector. The predominant reason to do this would be the shifting of manufacturing jobs overseas which is more difficult to do in the service sector so employees aren't competing with Vietnamese citizens making a few thousand dollars a year. It also allows for minimal supply chain disruption, still allows for other economies outside the US to grow using their competitive wage advantage, and it can even be paired with sectoral bargaining agreements to increase bargaining power across the relative workforces similar to how manufacturing unions progressed wages and benefits in years past.

One big hurdle, of course, is the fact that people love to berate others for flipping burgers, working for daycares, or landscaping, but I fail to see much a difference in skills between these jobs and screwing in screws or running a sheet metal press on an assembly line - the difference seems to be primarily cultural.

Do you think we should encourage such a transition and work towards it?

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HoolaHoopMan

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#1 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

We've already transitioned to a service based economy so it seems inevitable that growth in the service sector should rise as manufacturing declines. This would probably require an increase in wage growth for the sector though. Large swathes of the service sections are even exempt from minimum wage laws (food service).

Would it be nice to see this supplant manufacturing? Sure. Do I think it will? Probably not. There would probably need to be some organization of service labor like manufacturing had decades ago.

One thing to note though; self service is quickly replacing some service jobs. Self checkout, online shopping, etc. Any service worker is still a costly barrier for a company that they'd happily give up if possible. Then we have to think about other forms of automation, which like self service, is technology replacing humans. Call centers could eventually be outsourced to AI software for customer inquiries, the same could be said for shipping and transportation with self driving cars. Self service and robotics/automation are the name of the game right now.

TLDR: The service economy is already under siege so it may be hard to have it replace manufacturing for the middle class.

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sonicare

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#2 sonicare
Member since 2004 • 56897 Posts

Manufacturing jobs were essential in building the middle class back in the 50's and 60's, but unfortunately that pipeline is drying up. Whether due to cheaper labor overseas or automation, there just aren't as many factory based jobs anymore. And I think hoolahoopman gives compelling reasons that service jobs may also be at risk.

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joebones5000

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#3 joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2800 Posts

This has already happened. We are full throttle into a service economy. 67% of GDP is due to services sector. Republicans killed unions and manufacturing, and manufacturing is not coming back.

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sonicare

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#4 sonicare
Member since 2004 • 56897 Posts

@joebones5000 said:

This has already happened. We are full throttle into a service economy. 67% of GDP is due to services sector. Republicans killed unions and manufacturing, and manufacturing is not coming back.

I thought automation and cheap overseas labour killed manufacturing.

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mattbbpl

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#5 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

@HoolaHoopMan said:

We've already transitioned to a service based economy so it seems inevitable that growth in the service sector should rise as manufacturing declines. This would probably require an increase in wage growth for the sector though. Large swathes of the service sections are even exempt from minimum wage laws (food service).

Would it be nice to see this supplant manufacturing? Sure. Do I think it will? Probably not. There would probably need to be some organization of service labor like manufacturing had decades ago.

One thing to note though; self service is quickly replacing some service jobs. Self checkout, online shopping, etc. Any service worker is still a costly barrier for a company that they'd happily give up if possible. Then we have to think about other forms of automation, which like self service, is technology replacing humans. Call centers could eventually be outsourced to AI software for customer inquiries, the same could be said for shipping and transportation with self driving cars. Self service and robotics/automation are the name of the game right now.

TLDR: The service economy is already under siege so it may be hard to have it replace manufacturing for the middle class.

There is fierce (and I mean FIERCE with a capital every letter) debate occurring in economics circles whether the service economy is actually under siege from automation as a whole or just specific jobs are. They're not sure that it will lead to a decrease in jobs in total or not.

These are economists I respect on both sides, and the numbers are surely not currently decisive one way or the other, so I'm reserving judgement until something develops.

That being said, assuming it is indeed the case that it will lower the number of jobs in total, I can't see a situation in which shuffling sector emphasis or increasing union emphasis will result in shared prosperity and growth. What's a reasonable path forward under those circumstances?

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mattbbpl

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#6 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

BTW, I forgot to add a related link.

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#7  Edited By gootall
Member since 2019 • 3 Posts

Visitors spent 18.8 billion dollars in Louisiana. 1.9 billion in local and state taxes. I would say the service sector is huge.

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Master_Live

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#8 Master_Live  Online
Member since 2004 • 19749 Posts

Down with all tariff. Let manufacturing go where it wants to, no propping up by government (Trump et al.). Let the service sector unionized if workers choose to. Strong unions (in the private sector), for good wages and benefits.

Automation will be dealt with too.

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jeezers

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#9  Edited By jeezers
Member since 2007 • 3396 Posts

I prefer manufacturing jobs over service jobs, manufacturing pays more most of the time and why prop up other nations who exploit thier employees wages, workers rights in exchange for some savings on production. How about America fights for both manufacturing and service jobs. I say we try sustaining ourselves on both fronts.

We can build our shit and service our shit.

Ya feel me? lol

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mrbojangles25

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#10 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44574 Posts

I'd rather see a shift towards better education first and foremost. With manufacturing and traditional "blue collar" jobs being taken out of the country, but innovation and research still being prominant in the US, it's even more important to keep that trend going.

Just because we don't produce any tangible goods doesn't mean we can't produce ideas. And while I support a migration for a lot of people to go from production to service jobs, the last thing I want is a country full of people that don't do anything except serve people and be served.

We'd basically be like the people on the spaceship in WALL-E at that point

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mrbojangles25

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#11  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44574 Posts

@jeezers said:

I prefer manufacturing jobs over service jobs, manufacturing pays more most of the time and why prop up other nations who exploit thier employees wages, workers rights in exchange for some savings on production. How about America fights for both manufacturing and service jobs. I say we try sustaining ourselves on both fronts.

We can build our shit and service our shit.

Ya feel me? lol

But are you willing to pay for it? Are you going to spend 15 dollars on a wrench instead of 10 based on where it came from?

I agree with you, but people vote with their wallets and they generally vote for the cheaper option, for better or worse.

Personally I don't mind paying more for a quality product, or local products especially (local food, local beer, etc).

That's what I'd really like to see, a resurgence of "craft" manufacturing.

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jeezers

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#12 jeezers
Member since 2007 • 3396 Posts

@mrbojangles25: yeah i'm willing to pay it and i'm far from rich. Its worth it knowing we are less dependent on other nations out of our control. But i look at it as a long term game, imagine if there was a resurgence of manufacturing in the US over an extended period of time (like seriously push for it for at least 20 years). I mean at one point the US was an industrial power house, before we shipped the work over seas. the long term benefits of what that could do for America seems good to me, more jobs, opportunity, money to be made for the lower and middle class. Look at what happened to Detroit when their manufacturing left, they were crushed economically.

I say lets bring it back and we still can have the service jobs like we always had. Id rather us be putting our money into America than another county, why are we growing their economy while weakening our own to sell some goods slightly cheaper. Shipping these jobs overseas hurt the lower class, it benefited the upper class/the CEO's.

(To be honest its hard to even blame the guys at the top, when your competition is outsourcing but you decide not too, you start getting wrecked on price, going out of business is on the horizon, so then you have to outsource to compete)

Paying Americans doesn't seem worth it when they could get some country that doesn't follow proper workers right ethics and pays less than the American minimum wage.

even though its cheaper technically to build there because of this, we give them control, now we listen to what they are going to charge us and much of the time they are squeezing as much out of us they can while cost is very low for themselves, that wrench should be 6 dollars for what they are spending to make it.

All that money used to be negotiated within our own country. When Americans are doing business with Americans we aren't outsourcing the jobs or money. It helps grow the economy on multiple fronts.

Outsourcing has always just been the quick and easy way to flip a quick buck, but it doesn't last, it fucks us in the long run.

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npiet1

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#13 npiet1
Member since 2018 • 2561 Posts

@mrbojangles25: During the early 2000's (?), We (Australia) had a "Made in Australia" logo start to be put on things. They found that sales increased when the product had the symbol, obviously companies found a way around that with loopholes and now it's a percentage on the box, but it does show people are willing to spend more if it means it's made in the country.

I know I am as long as it's not a ridiculous price difference.

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#14 JimB
Member since 2002 • 2575 Posts

@joebones5000 said:

This has already happened. We are full throttle into a service economy. 67% of GDP is due to services sector. Republicans killed unions and manufacturing, and manufacturing is not coming back.

The service industry does not create wealth. They just support it.

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Serraph105

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#15 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34114 Posts

We should just be the country that fully embraces automating everything and see what comes of it. Really go at automation full throttle and leave people to deal with the new reality of huge swaths of traditional jobs no longer being available. Theoretically this would mean that others countries doing these jobs more cheaply wouldn't have the option of relying on those jobs either.

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mattbbpl

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#16 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

@Serraph105: "We should just be the country that fully embraces automating everything"

I completely agree.

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plageus900

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#17 plageus900
Member since 2013 • 2749 Posts

@mattbbpl: It depends. Manufacturing encompasses a very broad spectrum of jobs. For instance, semiconductor manufacturing is very complex. In most cases, positions at the technician level require an AS or BS. I wouldn't compare them metal-press operators or screw spinners.

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mattbbpl

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#18 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

@plageus900: Yeah, but there are similar upscale positions in service. The sectors are quite similar in that regard.

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comp_atkins

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#19 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35932 Posts

as others have said, we already have a service economy. there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

i don't think we're going to return to a time when 40 millions americans are working high paying manufacturing jobs.

our priority ought not to be pining over those lost days and fighting the tide of progress. how many people used to work in agriculture before mechanization eliminated those jobs and brought about an order of magnitude increase in productivity?

where are all those would-be farmers now? they developed new skills the market is looking for an are working other jobs ( likely service sector at this point )

should we build a bubble around the US where within everything is inflated in price so that we can keep low skilled manufacturing jobs here rather than accept the realities that the jobs can be either 1) shipped overseas or 2) automated?

we should no longer be teaching our youth that a low-skilled manufacturing job is the ticket to the american dream.

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jeezers

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#20  Edited By jeezers
Member since 2007 • 3396 Posts

@comp_atkins: Yeah but not everyone is built for higher education, its good having both manufacturing and service positions, a country cant sustain with nothing but college grads. That's actually a huge issue right now, an over saturation of degrees. Then you have the people that arent built for school, there are no manufacturing jobs, mainly service, that's why we have so many people juggling jobs from taco bell to outback steakhouse...

Automation is for sure a concern but it hasn't wiped out manufacturing, manufacturing is still HUGE, all products always need to be made, we still need humans for this. Look at China... manufacturing literally is their economy. Much like service is a huge portion of ours now. We probably wont be able to get to levels of production of the early 1900s. But there is still alot of money to be made and jobs to be gained from that kind of work. We should always want to diversify our economy.

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comp_atkins

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#21 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35932 Posts

@jeezers: emphasis on low-skilled. nothing wrong with not going to college, but continue building your skills regardless. learn a trade, do an apprenticeship, etc. seek out careers that are difficult to outsource. if my furnace stops working in january, i'm not shipping it to china for repairs.

not all service sector work is "white collar"

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jeezers

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#22 jeezers
Member since 2007 • 3396 Posts

@comp_atkins: never said its white collar, i think there is a misunderstanding, that's why i used the food industry like taco bell as an example of low level service jobs, definitely not white collar. I agree on trades, that's definitely a good route to go, you can make a good living as an electrician, plumber, hvac, welding. But I think it is disingenuous to treat manufacturing as lower level than service. Many manufacturing plants pay very well and offer great benefits. I have a couple friends who work at a nearby manufactuer (DuPont.) and they are all making over 6 figures, granted they work alot of graveyard shifts. But still its good work. Check them out they make alot of different stuff, been around since the early 1900s. https://www.dupont.com/

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Nuck81

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#23 Nuck81
Member since 2005 • 7805 Posts

There are tons of manufacturing jobs in America.

America has a labor shortage.

One of the reasons companies are moving overseas is to have enough labor to fulfill their manufacturing demands.

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Jacanuk

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#24 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19048 Posts
@Nuck81 said:

There are tons of manufacturing jobs in America.

America has a labor shortage.

One of the reasons companies are moving overseas is to have enough labor to fulfill their manufacturing demands.

That is not entirely true, there might be certain manufacturing jobs available but they are also limiting their employment especially because a lot are either moving to Mexico or hiring illegals.

Also, no the reason why companies are moving is because they can lower the cost by a huge margin not to mention they don´t have to deal with "American labour unions" and politicians like Sanders.

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LJS9502_basic

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#25  Edited By LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167391 Posts

@Jacanuk said:
@Nuck81 said:

There are tons of manufacturing jobs in America.

America has a labor shortage.

One of the reasons companies are moving overseas is to have enough labor to fulfill their manufacturing demands.

That is not entirely true, there might be certain manufacturing jobs available but they are also limiting their employment especially because a lot are either moving to Mexico or hiring illegals.

Also, no the reason why companies are moving is because they can lower the cost by a huge margin not to mention they don´t have to deal with "American labour unions" and politicians like Sanders.

Yeah corporations should be able to screw over employees.

Also you aren't American are you?

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Serraph105

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#26 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34114 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@Serraph105: "We should just be the country that fully embraces automating everything"

I completely agree.

On that same note, the fast food industry may be next in line for serious automation. It's essentially an assemble line currently so automating it may be fairly simple with the increase in technology/software.

https://gizmodo.com/why-fast-food-is-the-ticking-time-bomb-of-job-automatio-1837898231

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mattbbpl

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#27 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

@Serraph105: Oh yeah, that's already on the way.

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#28 PurpleMan5000
Member since 2011 • 9792 Posts

Service industries don't typically make enough money to pay workers the way the manufacturing industry does. At some point, we probably need to accept that automation is going to eliminate the need for a lot of jobs and supplement everyone with a universal base income.

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Serraph105

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#29 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34114 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@Serraph105: Oh yeah, that's already on the way.

One more thing to add to that, meet flippy :)

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HoolaHoopMan

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#30 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

@mattbbpl said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:

We've already transitioned to a service based economy so it seems inevitable that growth in the service sector should rise as manufacturing declines. This would probably require an increase in wage growth for the sector though. Large swathes of the service sections are even exempt from minimum wage laws (food service).

Would it be nice to see this supplant manufacturing? Sure. Do I think it will? Probably not. There would probably need to be some organization of service labor like manufacturing had decades ago.

One thing to note though; self service is quickly replacing some service jobs. Self checkout, online shopping, etc. Any service worker is still a costly barrier for a company that they'd happily give up if possible. Then we have to think about other forms of automation, which like self service, is technology replacing humans. Call centers could eventually be outsourced to AI software for customer inquiries, the same could be said for shipping and transportation with self driving cars. Self service and robotics/automation are the name of the game right now.

TLDR: The service economy is already under siege so it may be hard to have it replace manufacturing for the middle class.

There is fierce (and I mean FIERCE with a capital every letter) debate occurring in economics circles whether the service economy is actually under siege from automation as a whole or just specific jobs are. They're not sure that it will lead to a decrease in jobs in total or not.

These are economists I respect on both sides, and the numbers are surely not currently decisive one way or the other, so I'm reserving judgement until something develops.

That being said, assuming it is indeed the case that it will lower the number of jobs in total, I can't see a situation in which shuffling sector emphasis or increasing union emphasis will result in shared prosperity and growth. What's a reasonable path forward under those circumstances?

I just don't see how it isn't decreasing service sector jobs to be honest. An argument can be made that automation and self service is creating an equal amount of lateral jobs, but I'm doubtful they would be considered 'service level' in that capacity. Let's call them vocational in that stead.

My reasonable path forward response is to say we should embrace the race towards automation. It's an inevitability in my mind. Provide people the opportunity for jobs training if their positions are made obsolete. The only other factor being.....a UBI? If jobs are being replaced at a rate that is greater than created it's going to create a vacuum. Hell, even Milton Friedman believed in a negative income tax.

However, I'm willing to admit that the horizon of speculation might be hard to accurately predict with the rate at which technology is advancing.

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mattbbpl

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#31 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

@HoolaHoopMan: "An argument can be made that automation and self service is creating an equal amount of lateral jobs"

That is the argument, yes.

Good post, there's a lot chew on there.

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#32 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@HoolaHoopMan: "An argument can be made that automation and self service is creating an equal amount of lateral jobs"

That is the argument, yes.

Good post, there's a lot chew on there.

For some context, I work closely with my company's robotics program which is essentially a macro driven software program that mimics 'human' processing. We need more people to create, preform maintenance, and modify these programs for future use. But the number of people it can out perform (again from my own personal experience) is tipping the scale. I'll admit that my own view is very biased.

The future will simply need more 'thinkers' than 'doers'. If that makes any sense. It's a hard question and I don't have a concrete answer.

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SUD123456

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#33 SUD123456
Member since 2007 • 5369 Posts

@HoolaHoopMan: What you seem to be describing is RPA which is the tip of the iceberg. True AI, combined with ongoing improvements in traditional robotics for manual labor, will fundamentally alter the equation for employment and there is no possibility of stopping it or going backwards.

This is going to be massively disruptive over the next 50 years and it needs to be understood in a global context. It would already be a lot worse if not for the fact that a large portion of the world's population is still catching up to western standards of living.

This is important to recognize especially in manufacturing. Take automobiles for example. The US used to be far and away the largest market....now China crushes the US in market size. Every one already has a car in the US and has for decades ...growth is modest and most sales are just replacements. A small % of China owns a car. Growth is massive.

Examine relative standards of living, relative population distribution worldwide and ask yourself where the market demand growth will be in the next three decades? It surely isn't going to traditional auto markets all of which are already saturated with limited population growth. Now when the west experienced huge auto growth the manufacturing was very labour dependent...not the case now. So when the other 75% of the world population start acquiring autos in larger numbers where will that manufacturing take place and just how many jobs will actually be created?

Now apply that against all manufacturing. And then apply that against increasing parts of service sectors due to AI. Now assume that we continue to have free mobility of capital and that business will squat wherever it feels is in its private interest. There is only one way this is going.

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Nuck81

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#34 Nuck81
Member since 2005 • 7805 Posts

@Jacanuk: there are literally 2 jobs for every person looking for work in America right now.

Companies hire illegal workers because there aren't enough legal workers to carry the labor load.

Just like chicken factory last month were they lost 243 illegals. They had a job fair two weeks ago and less than 100 people showed up. So how are they to keep up with production with 200 less people working?

Right now the only option in America is, you move your business to where there is labor, or you close and even more people are out of a job.

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Jacanuk

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#35 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19048 Posts
@Nuck81 said:

@Jacanuk: there are literally 2 jobs for every person looking for work in America right now.

Companies hire illegal workers because there aren't enough legal workers to carry the labor load.

Just like chicken factory last month were they lost 243 illegals. They had a job fair two weeks ago and less than 100 people showed up. So how are they to keep up with production with 200 less people working?

Right now the only option in America is, you move your business to where there is labor, or you close and even more people are out of a job.

Again you are loose with the truth.

Some areas might see a lack of jobs but a lot of areas in America are not like that, and the reason why your area might be hiring illegals especially the manufacturing

Just go to Baltimore and check or Detroit or go to the leftist's dream state of California.

And that chicken factory should have been shut down and fined their entire years income for hiring just one illegal. If they are lacking employees go through the legal channels to get them legally here.

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#36 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11004 Posts

@SUD123456 said:

@HoolaHoopMan: What you seem to be describing is RPA which is the tip of the iceberg. True AI, combined with ongoing improvements in traditional robotics for manual labor, will fundamentally alter the equation for employment and there is no possibility of stopping it or going backwards.

This is going to be massively disruptive over the next 50 years and it needs to be understood in a global context. It would already be a lot worse if not for the fact that a large portion of the world's population is still catching up to western standards of living.

This is important to recognize especially in manufacturing. Take automobiles for example. The US used to be far and away the largest market....now China crushes the US in market size. Every one already has a car in the US and has for decades ...growth is modest and most sales are just replacements. A small % of China owns a car. Growth is massive.

Examine relative standards of living, relative population distribution worldwide and ask yourself where the market demand growth will be in the next three decades? It surely isn't going to traditional auto markets all of which are already saturated with limited population growth. Now when the west experienced huge auto growth the manufacturing was very labour dependent...not the case now. So when the other 75% of the world population start acquiring autos in larger numbers where will that manufacturing take place and just how many jobs will actually be created?

Now apply that against all manufacturing. And then apply that against increasing parts of service sectors due to AI. Now assume that we continue to have free mobility of capital and that business will squat wherever it feels is in its private interest. There is only one way this is going.

You're right, I am talking about RPA, which again is just software automation and not true AI. People are starting to realize that white collar jobs are in danger to losing them to automation similar to manufacturing in the past. As for true AI, I'm not sure if such a thing can truly exist. Unless of course we just define it as a series of complex embedded IF statements and Boolean logic gates.

As to what you're describing with respect to manufacturing, I'd agree and say that these changes will always find the lowest level 'cost state'. Whether that's with cost to building machines, pay limited workers, or just find a tax haven, it would all follow that it naturally finds it lowest level of cost to produce anything. Fighting to keep manufacturing contained to certain borders is doomed to fail.

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Nuck81

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#37 Nuck81
Member since 2005 • 7805 Posts

@Jacanuk: cool. So you really don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Typical

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mattbbpl

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#38 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

@Nuck81: I tend to be pretty skeptical of the "shortage of [x workers]," claims. I've seen too many cases of people complaining that they can't find workers when they're offering sub-par wages/benefits, and the widespread claims of a skills gap causing the high unemployment years ago has left me further jaded on such claims.

Can't find workers? Raise wages/benefits or otherwise entice them to enter the workforce.

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LJS9502_basic

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#39 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167391 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

Can't find workers? Raise wages/benefits or otherwise entice them to enter the workforce.

That cuts into their profit and they can't overpay the CEO.

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Baconstrip78

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#40 Baconstrip78
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@mattbbpl: People in low skill jobs just need to suck it up and realize in this modern economy, not only do you need to invest in a skill that is valuable, but continue to invest in building new skills as the market shifts.

That is not unrealistic, at any working age. Our company just hired a guy on the infrastructure side who came from a manufacturing job and now is a data warehousing specialist. Sets up the storage for private clouds for companies. He’s 63 years old and his first day in an entirely new career was like 3 months ago, and he’s doing great.

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Baconstrip78

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#41  Edited By Baconstrip78
Member since 2013 • 1408 Posts

@Nuck81: You mean they can’t find people willing to work for the wage they are paying.

Honestly, what other fields besides agriculture or construction do we still call “legitimate business” when they are 100% based around breaking the law? It’s absurd. Pay more and charge more if necessary. Maybe a rotisserie chicken should cost $7 instead of $5. Would the country fall apart if it did?

Having said all of that, Trump still has to go. He’s a con artist and he has lied so much that nothing that comes out of his mouth even means anything anymore.

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Horgen

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#42 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121343 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@Nuck81: I tend to be pretty skeptical of the "shortage of [x workers]," claims. I've seen too many cases of people complaining that they can't find workers when they're offering sub-par wages/benefits, and the widespread claims of a skills gap causing the high unemployment years ago has left me further jaded on such claims.

Can't find workers? Raise wages/benefits or otherwise entice them to enter the workforce.

Isn't it common to have some absurd demands when they first have a position available so that it can't be filled with an American, thus have to use foreign workers?

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mattbbpl

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#43 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

@horgen: I can't speak to the intent behind it, but credential creep was a common problem during the "skills gap crisis," yes.

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Jacanuk

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#44 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19048 Posts
@Nuck81 said:

@Jacanuk: cool. So you really don't have any idea what you're talking about.

Typical

I hope you know that your own opinion is not what is the truth, your experiences are yours and cannot be fit to the entire country.

But ya typical in debates with you, you know your wrong and then end up with one-liners.

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Nuck81

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#45 Nuck81
Member since 2005 • 7805 Posts

@Jacanuk: you're

And it's two liners, monkey

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Horgen

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#46 Horgen  Moderator
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@mattbbpl said:

@horgen: I can't speak to the intent behind it, but credential creep was a common problem during the "skills gap crisis," yes.

How long did this period last? If we are talking a few selected sectors for a short time, it could be a real shortage, if it is all over over lets say period of 5 years or more, it's more likely a "created" problem.

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comp_atkins

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#47 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35932 Posts

service or manufacturing, we're all screwed.

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mattbbpl

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#48 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17531 Posts

@horgen: Those ringing alarm bells over it began in 2009. Many of those same people were writing articles on it as recently as February 2019.

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#49 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121343 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@horgen: Those ringing alarm bells over it began in 2009. Many of those same people were writing articles on it as recently as February 2019.

10 years... I am leaning towards it being a manufactured/created problem, so companies can hire foreigners cheaper.

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#50 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19048 Posts
@comp_atkins said:

service or manufacturing, we're all screwed.

Machines can never replace the human contact so service is secured for ages.

It will take at least a few generations before humans can "devolve" into being ok with a machine.