Ron DeSantis has banned Critical race theory from being taught in the state of Florida.

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appariti0n

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#1 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

A great win against Neo-racism and forced indoctrination of school children.

https://thecapitolist.com/florida-board-of-education-passes-rule-banning-critical-race-theory-in-public-schools/

Proponents of the proposal say that critical race theory is a philosophical movement that seeks to undermine American principles and indoctrinate students into believing that the country was largely built on racism.

The Governor added that critical race theory has brought “ideology and political activism into the forefront of education,” noting that the teachings are “toxic” and sow division.

“Some of this stuff is, I think, really toxic,” DeSantis continued. “I think it’s going to cause a lot of divisions. I think it’ll cause people to think of themselves more as a member of a particular race based on skin color, rather than based on the content of their character and based on their hard work and what they’re trying to accomplish in life.”

Great start. Let's go back to judging people by the content of their character, rather than the color of their skin imo.

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Silentchief

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#2 Silentchief
Member since 2021 • 1567 Posts

I'm liking this guy more and more.

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Ghost_of_Phobos

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#3 Ghost_of_Phobos
Member since 2020 • 2220 Posts

It's not surprising to see the establishment banning something that the sole purpose is to question that same establishment.

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LJS9502_basic

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#4 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 172997 Posts

Anytime the right whines about indoctrination then I know it's knowledge they fear.

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appariti0n

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#5 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@ghost_of_phobos: Really? Kinda thought the idea was to examine everything through the lens of race, rather than content of character.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory

"Critical race theory (CRT), intellectual movement and loosely organized framework of legal analysis based on the premise that race is not a natural, biologically grounded feature of physically distinct subgroups of human beings but a socially constructed (culturally invented) category that is used to oppress and exploit people of colour. Critical race theorists hold that the law and legal institutions in the United States are inherently racist insofar as they function to create and maintain social, economic, and political inequalities between whites and nonwhites, especially African Americans."

Replace "Whites" with "Jews", and "non-Whites" with "Aryans", and what does this read exactly like?

Any unjust policy one could target using critical race theory, using "race" as the criteria could just as easily be achieved by targeting "class" instead. Without labelling one particular skin color as the historical "big bad".

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appariti0n

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#6 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

Anytime the right whines about indoctrination then I know it's knowledge they fear.

That's a Kafka trap unfortunately.

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TheNation

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#7  Edited By TheNation
Member since 2021 • 422 Posts

Critical race theory (CRT) is an academic movement of civil rights scholars and activists in the United States who seek to critically examine the law as it intersects with issues of race and to challenge mainstream liberal approaches to racial justice.[1] Critical race theory examines social, cultural and legal issues as they relate to race and racism.[2][3]

I wonder why………. Vote him out

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appariti0n

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#8 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@thenation: Can you name a specific "systemically racist" policy that could not be corrected if the criteria for it was "class" instead of "race"?

Also, please link where you got your definition from.

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TheNation

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#9 TheNation
Member since 2021 • 422 Posts

@appariti0n: Are you really arguing systemic racism doesn’t exist because if you change it from race to class it’s not racist anymore. That has to be the weakest argument against systemic racism in history. You can change the focus of anything to do that. Do better.

And Wikipedia.

“ Proponents of the proposal say that critical race theory is a philosophical movement that seeks to undermine American principles and indoctrinate students into believing that the country was largely built on racism”

Ummm…….. It was built on racism. That’s why conservatives try to get rid of this, they don’t want that known. They want the evils of the past hidden.

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appariti0n

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#10 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@thenation: Nah, more than just conservatives want it gone, because it teaches black kids they're oppressed, and white kids they're the oppressors.

When in reality a poor white guy has far more in common with a poor black guy than he ever would have on common with a rich white guy.

You can go ahead and try to lump me into the "conservative" monolith all you want but it won't work. I hold far too many other views that are not typically associated with conservatives.

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LJS9502_basic

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#12 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 172997 Posts

@appariti0n said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Anytime the right whines about indoctrination then I know it's knowledge they fear.

That's a Kafka trap unfortunately.

Nope. It's the right stifling opposing views again.

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appariti0n

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#13 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@LJS9502_basic: Well, if you're claiming that ANY time someone says "indoctrination", that it's simply fear of knowledge, thats a Kafka trap.

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TheNation

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#14 TheNation
Member since 2021 • 422 Posts

@appariti0n: No. That’s not what that means.

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#15  Edited By appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@thenation:

@LJS9502_basic

Ok.

So let's say a school starts teaching that Jesus Christ is our lord and savior, and we can achieve eternal life only through him.

Would you call that indoctrination?

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TheNation

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#16 TheNation
Member since 2021 • 422 Posts

@appariti0n: Yes. And unconstitutional.

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#17 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 2933 Posts
@silentchief said:

I'm liking this guy more and more.

I hope he runs in 2024 with a Trump endorsement.

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appariti0n

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#18  Edited By appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@thenation said:

@appariti0n: Yes. And unconstitutional.

No, that's just the left fearing knowledge/stifling opposing views.

See what I mean?

Under those conditions, even actual indoctrination is dismissed as "fear of knowledge".

Very much a Kafka trap.

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appariti0n

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#19 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@thenation said:

@appariti0n: Love how you ignore the whole post. And black people are oppressed, denying racism exists won’t fix it.

Lmao! No that white kid wouldnt because his options and chances to get himself out of poverty and his treatment while he is poor are way different.

Jokes? That wasn’t pointed directly at you.

Where did I deny that racism exists? This is a strawman now.

I'm saying it's counterproductive to enact policies on the basis of race to correct injustice, when "class" could be used equally well.

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#20 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 20255 Posts

@appariti0n said:

@ghost_of_phobos: Really? Kinda thought the idea was to examine everything through the lens of race, rather than content of character.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/critical-race-theory

"Critical race theory (CRT), intellectual movement and loosely organized framework of legal analysis based on the premise that race is not a natural, biologically grounded feature of physically distinct subgroups of human beings but a socially constructed (culturally invented) category that is used to oppress and exploit people of colour. Critical race theorists hold that the law and legal institutions in the United States are inherently racist insofar as they function to create and maintain social, economic, and political inequalities between whites and nonwhites, especially African Americans."

Replace "Whites" with "Jews", and "non-Whites" with "Aryans", and what does this read exactly like?

Any unjust policy one could target using critical race theory, using "race" as the criteria could just as easily be achieved by targeting "class" instead. Without labelling one particular skin color as the historical "big bad".

What's controversial about that definition? We have documented proof of legal and political systems, both past and present, causing inequalities between whites and nonwhites. It's not exactly a secret.

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#21 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 20255 Posts

@appariti0n said:
@thenation said:

@appariti0n: Love how you ignore the whole post. And black people are oppressed, denying racism exists won’t fix it.

Lmao! No that white kid wouldnt because his options and chances to get himself out of poverty and his treatment while he is poor are way different.

Jokes? That wasn’t pointed directly at you.

Where did I deny that racism exists? This is a strawman now.

I'm saying it's counterproductive to enact policies on the basis of race to correct injustice, when "class" could be used equally well.

This is an entirely separate thing from banning critical race theory, but it's one I can get behind for a number of reasons. You should make this - using class based policies to combat racist inequities - your central argument rather than arguing about the presence of systemic racism.

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appariti0n

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#22 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@mattbbpl:

What's controversial about that definition? We have documented proof of legal and political systems, both past and present, causing inequalities between whites and nonwhites. It's not exactly a secret.

Yes fair enough, maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not saying there are no inequalities caused by policies which were originally enacted with racist intent. I'm trying to state that teaching kids they are oppressed/oppressor in a "racist country" is the wrong approach. And teaching kids to view each other as oppressed/oppressor because of their skin color is neo-racism imo.

This is an entirely separate thing from banning critical race theory, but it's one I can get behind for a number of reasons. You should make this - using class based policies to combat racist inequities - your central argument rather than arguing about the presence of systemic racism.

Yes, and I'm really puzzled why this wasn't done from the beginning, rather than the focus on skin color.

IE: If there are 20,000 kids across various schools who are far behind everyone else and need help, and 18,000 of them are black, the other 2,000 are white, the solution is not to extend an olive branch to only the black kids.

Not only does this alienate white folks, but it also alienates some of the black folks who are succeeding, by essentially implying their race can't succeed without white saviors coming in to help them.

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#23 rmiller365
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I see it as both class and race. like the the Anti-drug use act of 1986 when the Crack Cocaine epidemic hit the US in the 1980s. Crack's availability and cheapness made it hit the minority community the hardest (poor class), while at the same time powder Cocaine was everywhere in the rich community (predominantly white WASPs)

The act made a "mandatory minimum 5 year prison sentence" for 5 grams of Crack, while with Cocaine, it was 500 grams to a pound (100 times more) for the same 5 year sentence. So Essentially you'd get a slap on the wrist for the rich (and predominantly white class) drug and a prison sentence for the poor (and predominantly minority class) drug.

This can be both seen as a class biased issue due to the more wealthy getting away with more and also a race issue due to the fact that, in that time, the classes affected where of a predominant race in said class. With that being said, the devil is in the details. Dan Lungren, who helped draft the act even said "we didn't have an evidentiary basis for it." You can assess the rationale from there. Food for thought.

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appariti0n

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#24 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@rmiller365 said:

I see it as both class and race. like the the Anti-drug use act of 1986 when the Crack Cocaine epidemic hit the US in the 1980s. Crack's availability and cheapness made it hit the minority community the hardest (poor class), while at the same time powder Cocaine was everywhere in the rich community (predominantly white WASPs)

The act made a "mandatory minimum 5 year prison sentence" for 5 grams of Crack, while with Cocaine, it was 500 grams to a pound (100 times more) for the same 5 year sentence. So Essentially you'd get a slap on the wrist for the rich (and predominantly white class) drug and a prison sentence for the poor (and predominantly minority class) drug.

This can be both seen as a class biased issue due to the more wealthy getting away with more and also a race issue due to the fact that, in that time, the classes affected where of a predominant race in said class. With that being said, the devil is in the details. Dan Lungren, who helped draft the act even said "we didn't have an evidentiary basis for it." You can assess the rationale from there. Food for thought.

See, I'm not sure if the war on drugs was intentionally designed to put more black people in Jail, but it certainly had that effect. And if I recall correctly, Cocaine was a different schedule drug than Crack?

But yes, I am in favor 100% of no jail time for simple possession of small amounts of any drugs, favoring treatment instead. I never really WAS for incarceration for simple possession. Which is one of the reason why I laugh when I get labeled a "right wing" or "conservative".

Don't even get me started on private/for profit companies managing prisons either lol.

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#25 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 4119 Posts

So can anyone point out a systemically racist law yet?

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#26  Edited By appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@eoten said:

So can anyone point out a systemically racist law yet?

I think Gerrymandering has come up before?

Though one could argue that's less about race, and more about ensuring one political party wins a district.

Edit: Though I guess that's not so much a "law" as a policy.

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#27 firedrakes
Member since 2004 • 3180 Posts

also voter id cards to..

btw fl wont teach about . the mass death of African Americans in a single day. due to a flood. oh and the owners of the land they lived on. force them to clean up all the bodies. whites first then there...

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#28 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 20255 Posts

@appariti0n: The secret, of course, is that any policies of significance that will be enacted will be class based.

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#29 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 172997 Posts

@appariti0n said:

@LJS9502_basic: Well, if you're claiming that ANY time someone says "indoctrination", that it's simply fear of knowledge, thats a Kafka trap.

You're twisting in the wind trying to excuse this. And no, it's not a Kafka trap.

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#30 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 20255 Posts

@appariti0n said:
@eoten said:

So can anyone point out a systemically racist law yet?

I think Gerrymandering has come up before?

Though one could argue that's less about race, and more about ensuring one political party wins a district.

Edit: Though I guess that's not so much a "law" as a policy.

That's a winner. The documents from Hofeller explicitly mention suppressing black peoples' votes for political gain.

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#31  Edited By appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@appariti0n said:

@LJS9502_basic: Well, if you're claiming that ANY time someone says "indoctrination", that it's simply fear of knowledge, thats a Kafka trap.

You're twisting in the wind trying to excuse this. And no, it's not a Kafka trap.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Kafkatrap

"A sophisticalrhetorical device in which any denial by an accusedpersonserves as evidence of guilt"

Hence, if a conservative claims they are NOT just trying to suppress knowledge, and that it's indoctrination, it doesn't matter. They're just trying to suppress knowledge.

Or the other option is to admit they are trying to suppress knowledge.

Do you see a third option a conservative could use when accused of trying to suppress knowledge?

If there's no 3rd option, it's a Kafka trap. Plain and simple.

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appariti0n

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#32 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts
@firedrakes said:

also voter id cards to..

btw fl wont teach about . the mass death of African Americans in a single day. due to a flood. oh and the owners of the land they lived on. force them to clean up all the bodies. whites first then there...

Voter ID cards is a tough one, and a brilliant strategy by the Republicans actually.

Because ID cards are required by all, one can't accuse Republicans of being racist, unless you also admit you believe that Black people for some reason aren't smart enough/motivated enough to go get ID cards. The Democrats fell for it too. Hook line and sinker.

The smart course of action would have been "We don't think there was any widespread election fraud, but we do support strengthening the integrity of our voting system".

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LJS9502_basic

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#33 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 172997 Posts

@appariti0n: Indoctrination is a loaded word but we hear conservatives use it for college all the time. Which means they don't know what the word means, use it to instill fear, or both. Like I said when they throw that word around then I do not take them seriously. Also why is the right so afraid to learn about race in this country?

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#34 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 20255 Posts

@appariti0n: "unless you also admit you believe that Black people for some reason aren't smart enough/motivated enough to go get ID cards"

Not at all! The law of large numbers indicates that all you need for the strategy to be effective is to make it more inconvenient than it already is. Out of tens of millions of affected citizens, discouraging just a small fraction from participating in the the process which is usually decided by small margins is very effective.

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#35 Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14969 Posts

Classic Republican move. Don't like a problem? Pretend it doesn't exist. Always works out.

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#36 appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

@appariti0n: Indoctrination is a loaded word but we hear conservatives use it for college all the time. Which means they don't know what the word means, use it to instill fear, or both. Like I said when they throw that word around then I do not take them seriously. Also why is the right so afraid to learn about race in this country?

I'm not so sure banning Critical Race theory actually prevents all discussions of race period does it?

Rather the intent is to ban the idea that America is an inherently racist country, and that whites are the oppressors/blacks are the oppressed.

I hear what you're saying, but unless you qualify with "most of the time" or "very often" etc before the statement about conservatives wanting to suppress knowledge any time they use the word "indoctrination", it's unfortunately a Kafka trap. As there's no option where it actually IS indoctrination.

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#37  Edited By appariti0n
Member since 2009 • 3797 Posts
@mattbbpl said:

@appariti0n: "unless you also admit you believe that Black people for some reason aren't smart enough/motivated enough to go get ID cards"

Not at all! The law of large numbers indicates that all you need for the strategy to be effective is to make it more inconvenient than it already is. Out of tens of millions of affected citizens, discouraging just a small fraction from participating in the the process which is usually decided by small margins is very effective.

Oh yeah, I can clearly see the intent behind it. I'm just saying as soon as some Democrats started labelling it as a "racist" policy, it's all too easy for the Republicans to flip it around and call the Democrats racist for assuming black people are too lazy/unmotivated etc to vote.

Essentially they walked right into that one, when they should have jumped onboard without batting an eye. It would have totally defeated the purpose imo. Could have even instituted something at the federal level to help anyone who needs an ID get one quickly and for free etc.

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#38 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 172997 Posts

@appariti0n said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

@appariti0n: Indoctrination is a loaded word but we hear conservatives use it for college all the time. Which means they don't know what the word means, use it to instill fear, or both. Like I said when they throw that word around then I do not take them seriously. Also why is the right so afraid to learn about race in this country?

I'm not so sure banning Critical Race theory actually prevents all discussions of race period does it?

Rather the intent is to ban the idea that America is an inherently racist country, and that whites are the oppressors/blacks are the oppressed.

I hear what you're saying, but unless you qualify with "most of the time" or "very often" etc before the statement about conservatives wanting to suppress knowledge any time they use the word "indoctrination", it's unfortunately a Kafka trap. As there's no option where it actually IS indoctrination.

I have yet to find an instance where they use the word against further education on subjects. Feel free to show some examples. It's like the word socialist. They throw that around all the time as well to gin up fear.

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#39 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 20255 Posts

@appariti0n: Such IDs were proposed in the past. I think the last push was in the early 2010s, IIRC.

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#40 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 2933 Posts

I like how liberals think that YouTube videos and social media shitposts are capable of radicalizing people into terrorists, but actually radicalizing youth with years of educational indoctrination is just expanding their minds.

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#41 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 4119 Posts

So, going back to that "voter ID is racist" story? Really digging deep aren't we? Since it's been disproven that voter ID is even racist. Gerrymandering is a laugh. It's extensively done by both parties and hard to prove it's ever done based on race. In fact, most blacks live in the major cities which get redrawn the most, and divided the most to increase the number of seats in office, and those redrawn major city districts, where the vast majority of blacks live, are almost entirely blue.

So if anybody is actually guilty of any kind of systemic racism towards blacks, it's the same party pushing critical race theory. I mean, y'all did vote for a segregationalist.

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#42 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 20255 Posts

@eoten: Nope, you've been shown numerous times that what you just said above is false. You're simply complicit.

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#44 Solaryellow
Member since 2013 • 6220 Posts

@eoten said:

So if anybody is actually guilty of any kind of systemic racism towards blacks, it's the same party pushing critical race theory. I mean, y'all did vote for a segregationalist.

IMO holding down a certain group of people based on the ideas they are unable to function w/o help of said political party appears quite systemic on its own.

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#45 Eoten
Member since 2020 • 4119 Posts

@Solaryellow said:
@eoten said:

So if anybody is actually guilty of any kind of systemic racism towards blacks, it's the same party pushing critical race theory. I mean, y'all did vote for a segregationalist.

IMO holding down a certain group of people based on the ideas they are unable to function w/o help of said political party appears quite systemic on its own.

It does. Do they also not run the cities that pick the commissioners that hire the chief that hire the cops they're also screaming are Klan members out to murder blacks for fun? Yet, those on the left on here have assured me time and time again that there's no racism in their party, the parties also switched from when they were using national guard to keep blacks out of public schools as well. That's why we need to listen those same leftists pushing critical race theory because it couldn't possibly be designed to do anything nefarious, right?

Critical race theory is indoctrination, creating a victim class, a new class of "have nots", while demonizing the "haves" (just like Marx taught) which by contrast, is whites. It's designed to create racism by creating racial division and worsening race relations by convincing large portions of the population that they're entitled to things the rest of us are not, and by not giving it to them, we're oppressing and victimizing them. It's designed to indoctrinate children into an incorrect far left ideology while their minds are still young and impressionable.

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#46 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 12313 Posts

The people complaining the most about 'cancel culture' are dead set on canceling any mention of race and the impacts it has had, or continues to have, on our country today. Unsurprisingly the same people who would love to dismiss evolution and global warming being taught as well. Just another reason to vote these people out of office.

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#47 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 12313 Posts
@mattbbpl said:
@appariti0n said:

I think Gerrymandering has come up before?

Though one could argue that's less about race, and more about ensuring one political party wins a district.

Edit: Though I guess that's not so much a "law" as a policy.

That's a winner. The documents from Hofeller explicitly mention suppressing black peoples' votes for political gain.

We've got our hands on Hofeller's documents which are very explicit in their intent, which people tend to always 'forget' (or ignore). It isn't coded language, it isn't nuanced, it's stated out loud. Hell, his own daughter turned them in since she was so disgusted by him. This is the republican play book. There's no denying it.

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#48 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 15404 Posts

lol culture war nonsense.

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#49  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 15404 Posts
@eoten said:

So can anyone point out a systemically racist law yet?

I do know of strictly systemic race based practices to gain advantages in elections. Racial Gerrymandering and attempted census questions which fortunately get shot down. I know because they literally admitted to it in leaked documents.

Deceased G.O.P. Strategist’s Hard Drives Reveal New Details on the Census Citizenship Question - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Several of the areas that Republicans tried to over turn the election from 2020 were primarily black. Several of these phony 2020 election lie based bills appear to specifically target black areas or black heavy voting times. I'm not sure if they are intentionally racist, but they harm a specific people more so. Whether it was intentional or not, the effect would be clear.

These are just statistical facts,

Trump Lawsuits Target Votes In Largely Black Cities, Alarm Civil Rights Groups : NPR

How The Republican Push To Restrict Voting Could Affect Our Elections | FiveThirtyEight

This is all quite a bit more worse than "muh school class".

@eoten said:

Gerrymandering is a laugh. It's extensively done by both parties and hard to prove it's ever done based on race.

Literally both things you said in this sentence are highly mis-leading or false. Some are race based and the GOP does it far more.

Partisan Gerrymandering Has Benefited Republicans More Than Democrats (businessinsider.com)

The Secret Files of the Master of Modern Republican Gerrymandering | The New Yorker

Do some better research next time.

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#50  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 15404 Posts

@eoten said:

the parties also switched from when they were using national guard to keep blacks out of public schools as well.

I'm glad you read my historical links last time and accept reality.