Protests about Islamophobia in Western Countries

What would happen if Christians protested "Christianophobia" in Muslim majority countries...

I think its pretty amazing. Its a disgrace to human society to not respect their peaceful religion. People want to condemn people, but theyre condemning the wrong people. Muslims are peaceful, we know this for a fact.

Love will unite and change us. Hate will only cause divide and destruction. Too many people want to act like their way is the right way. No respect for other peoples culture and customs.

Your question is easily answered. Hindus protest peacefully against hinduphobia in majority Muslim countries.

Islam countries are so in control of their nations, they will never fear christians.

#alternativefacts

@foxhound_fox: Thats Conservatives for you,

@iandizion713 said:

@foxhound_fox: Thats Conservatives for you,

Have you read the Qur'an? Are you familiar with the history and development of Islam? Do you know how Islam spread throughout the Middle East and Southeast Asia?

I am criticizing you for calling Islam a peaceful religion. Your response makes no sense with regard to this discussion. Islam is at it's core a violent religion, and many of it's advocates support a literal interpretation of the central religious text... which involves passages that advocate killing people for a vast array of reasons.

Sure, there are many "moderate Muslims" out there who try and convince themselves that those passages are just "metaphor" or an "internal/spiritual struggle" as opposed to an outward, literal one... but when a large quantity of a religion's practitioners call for a literal interpretation of a text, and call for that text to be the sole source of law in countries where secular law already exists, then I draw issue with that.

And let me also suffix this by saying I know several Muslims, both practicing and former, who do agree with me. Islam as a political entity in the world is a threat to humanity. During an era where nuclear bombs and motorized warfare didn't exist, it wasn't as big of a global threat, but this ideology (I'm not talking about a privately held belief here) is a threat, and many Western countries, especially in Europe, are not recognizing the threat and if they are, it's too late to do anything about it.

Muslims can and are incredibly bright, successful and loving people, who can contribute to a cosmopolitan society in many unique ways... but letting them overrule secular law, giving them special privileges under the law, and turning a blind eye to the crimes they do commit within their own communities against their own people... that is downright shameful and anti-humanist. They should want to become a part of OUR society and contribute their unique viewpoints/skills to a greater whole, not enforce their will and dominate over Western culture.

@foxhound_fox: Im just stating facts, Islam is a peaceful religion. You got evidence that proves otherwise? Bring it. Show me Islam is so much worst than other religions or ideologies. Show me the Koran scriptures that support the killing of innocent people.

Islam has been practiced in America to extremely peaceful success. Id even argue more peaceful than Christians.

I proof-read my post after posting it, and you responded in less time than it took me to re-read it.

@foxhound_fox: I read your post. But now i need facts. Your so sure Islam is evil, it should be easy for you to prove it. Just find me that Koran scripture that says kill innocent people. Show me the stats that Islam causes more deaths or harm than other ideologies. Show me why we should waste our time with Islamophobia.

'Violence more common' in Bible than Quran, text analysis reveals

"Of the three texts, the content in the Old Testament appears to be the most violent.

"Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%), but the Old Testament clearly leads—more than twice that of the Quran—in mentions of destruction and killing (5.3%)."

@iandizion713: However, I will indulge your request, as you seem so deluded into thinking Islam is peaceful. But, I doubt you'll actually read what I give you, and just dismiss it because "reasons".

Plus, you added two qualifiers to your call for proof that I did not originally express. "Innocent people" was not what I was talking about, I was talking about violence in general. "Worse than other religions" is not the point I was making, I was saying, in general, Islam is a violent religion. full stop. There are many violent sects within all world religions, including Buddhism of all four varieties (Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Zen) both historical and modern, and the only truly "peaceful" religion in existence, based on actual teachings, is Jainism.

Anyways, here we go...

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx

Here is a list of all the passages in the Qur'an promoting violence. Be sure to read the introduction, as it gives reasoning behind choosing those specific passages and how they define "promoting violence".

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/muhammad/life-of-muhammad.aspx

Here is a full history of the life of Muhammad. This one however reports on the facts that historians have gathered from as many sources as possible, and contains no optimistic tendencies. Muhammad was a warlord, a child rapist and man who created the world's second largest religion through mostly violent means. It pulls no punches, so read at your own risk.

And because I'm sure you are going to commit the logical fallacy of calling into question the authority of my source, and disregarding anything it has to offer, I'll use Wikipedia to support my next and final point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spread_of_Islam

The entire spread of Islam throughout the world up until the modern era has been through warfare and dominating through forceful conversion of local populations. Every history textbook out there, not written by an apologist author, states this as fact and cites countless sources backing this up.

Islam came into existence through violence, propagated itself through violence, and bases it's entire existence on the violence committed in it's name. What I'd like to see, and what I've been saying for years, is these so-called "moderate" Muslims come out of the woodwork, condemn the actions of the violent groups within their communities and usher in a Renaissance of sorts, a "reformation" of the beliefs, to bring it about into the modern era, much like how Christianity did in the 16th century.

There are plenty of peaceful moderates out there already, they just need to wrest control from the incredibly powerful, politically motivated side of their religion that is doing actual harm to this planet and it's people.

Now list the number of Christians that call for a literal interpretation of the ENTIRE Old Testament (not just the fundamental evangelicals who use Leviticus to support their hatred of homosexuals), and using it to enforce actual judicial law in a secular country.

Whilst we should not paint all Muslims with the same brush, we have to acknowledge the fact that there are underlying issues with Islam that need to be changed... and it'll only happen from within.

Sam Harris is the voice of reason on this topic and sums it up perfectly here with Bill Maher:

Link

@foxhound_fox: Everything is taking out of context, id need something more concrete. Your defense is all over the place. Lots of religions have violence in them. And sure, maybe Islam was spread by violence, so was Christianity back then. They were primitive beings.

Islam does allow you to go to war. Buts its a very rare and strict practice. Its also a peaceful practice. As the Koran stats if the enemy wants peace, you must make peace. It is also forbidden to kill innocent women, children, and infidels during the rare occasion.

Westboro Baptist Church, in the US.

Lord's Resistance Army, the deadliest terrorist group in Africa.

Agreed, many still support the Old Testament. Jews even reject the New Testament.

Sam should come more forward with those outlines. Sam jumps all over the place with condemning Islam. Hell take some weird tribe that has some backward law and condemn Islam for it. He does the same with all religions.

He wrote a whole book on how we should condemn Christianity. Im all for condemning religions. But lets wage war on them all if were gonna do that. And lets also be faced with the reality of the consequences of doing so.

You ready to go to war with religion and die fighting such ideologies? Cause i promise you, many will die.

So you literally just played into my expectations. Instead of countering the evidence presented, you just dismiss it because it doesn't fall in line with your sunshine-and-rainbows view of Islam and it's history.

Link me to the passages in the Qur'an where it forbids the killing of women, children and infidels. Because I can find you ones that support the killing of woman and infidels.

And based on Islamic scholarship, and the official position of the religion on it's texts, those earlier "peaceful" passages are superseded by the violent passages that come later.

I'm not one to fall into this sort of behaviour, but I have a degree in religious studies. I literally went to university and learned about world religions, their beliefs, their histories and the cultural developments they created and paid for the privilege. I learned a lot, including the history and development of Islam. If you haven't already realized, I don't draw issue with Muslims, I draw issue with Islam.

@Jag85: The worst thing that the Westboro Baptist Church did to my knowledge was protest at funerals and tell people that God is killing US troops for not banning homosexuality, a far cry from radical Islamic terrorists that murder people. As far as I know, they are disgusting, but they haven't broken the law.

If I wanted to discredit Christianity in the US, then I would bring up the KKK, since they have actually participated in horrendous activities to include murdering minorities. I'll be sure to read about the other group that you mentioned to see what they have done in Africa.

Absolutely agree... but the fact still remains that whilst all religions have crazy people (ie. the KKK), as Sam said in the interview, no other religion has the sheer numbers of not only radicals, but just a general desire to enforce their own "laws" on everyone (Sharia Law). You heard the statistics Sam mentioned from the UK, and that would be similar all over the democratic world. This creates a huge conflict with our way of life that needs to be addressed from within the Muslim community.

Westboro Baptist Church: 40 members

I see your Lord's Resistance Army, and I raise you Boko Haram.

Africa is a bit of a clusterfuck when it comes to religiously-motivated extremist groups killing/raping innocent people. It's only worth discussing if we label them all as a problem and figure out ways to deal with them.

If you were going to cover the topic of Christian terrorism, you should have brought out all the groups/persons committing acts of actual terrorism against Planned Parenthood in the US.

I'm not denying there is Christian terrorism. I'm merely saying Islam is a violent religion, from it's core tenets to it's historical spread. Feel free to disagree with me, I'm just presenting my opinion and the facts supporting my opinion.

Honestly, is any religion truly peace loving? I may not totally buy it from Muslims, but frankly, Christianity, Buddhism (this is also called a religion of peace), Shintoism, and Mormonism have ALL had enough crimes to deter it's credibility.

Jainism is the only true religion of peace, in both teaching and practice. It's central tenet is that of ahimsa or "non-violence". Unlike Hindus and Buddhists, Jains take that teaching to it's most extreme. They wear masks to avoid breathing in bugs, and sweep the ground wherever they walk to avoid crushing anything.

And the highest spiritual achievement within the tradition is starving to death, so that you die in a state of literal perfect non-violence (even to plants). Granted, it's only done by a very few people, and only recognized if done during a supreme meditative state.

If you'd like, I could get started on the history of Buddhist violence as well. Buddhism was my topic of focus in university, and it is one of the most violent religions in human history. Especially the Tibetans. They conquered China at one point.

It's alright. I looked up a more recent one on Buddhist violence where a Burmese Buddhist terrorist was quite the anti-semite to Muslims. Crazy shit! But all the same, it annoys me when this one religion gets heat for it's violent histories, but the others don't get jack by comparison.

KKK is probably a better example, like ad1x2 mentioned. The atrocities perpetrated by the KKK were extremely horrific.

As for the Lord's Resistance Army, they've murdered 100,000 civilians, which is greater than ISIS and Boko Haram combined.

@foxhound_fox said:

@iandizion713 said:

@foxhound_fox: Everything is taking out of context, id need something more concrete. Your defense is all over the place. Lots of religions have violence in them. And sure, maybe Islam was spread by violence, so was Christianity back then. They were primitive beings.

Islam does allow you to go to war. Buts its a very rare and strict practice. Its also a peaceful practice. As the Koran stats if the enemy wants peace, you must make peace. It is also forbidden to kill innocent women, children, and infidels during the rare occasion.

So you literally just played into my expectations. Instead of countering the evidence presented, you just dismiss it because it doesn't fall in line with your sunshine-and-rainbows view of Islam and it's history.

Link me to the passages in the Qur'an where it forbids the killing of women, children and infidels. Because I can find you ones that support the killing of woman and infidels.

And based on Islamic scholarship, and the official position of the religion on it's texts, those earlier "peaceful" passages are superseded by the violent passages that come later.

I'm not one to fall into this sort of behaviour, but I have a degree in religious studies. I literally went to university and learned about world religions, their beliefs, their histories and the cultural developments they created and paid for the privilege. I learned a lot, including the history and development of Islam. If you haven't already realized, I don't draw issue with Muslims, I draw issue with Islam.

1. Terrorism is above all murder. Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an. Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

2. If the motive for terrorism is religious, it is impermissible in Islamic law. It is forbidden to attempt to impose Islam on other people. The Qur’an says, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error.” (-The Cow, 2:256). Note that this verse was revealed in Medina in 622 AD or after and was never abrogated by any other verse of the Quran. Islam’s holy book forbids coercing people into adopting any religion. They have to willingly choose it.

3. Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare. The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

4. In the Islamic law of war, not just any civil engineer can declare or launch a war. It is the prerogative of the duly constituted leader of the Muslim community that engages in the war. Nowadays that would be the president or prime minister of the state, as advised by the mufti or national jurisconsult.

5. The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)

6. Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, which groups it with brigandage, highway robbery and extortion rackets– any illicit use of fear and coercion in public spaces for money or power. The principle of forbidding the spreading of terror in the land is based on the Qur’an (Surah al-Ma’ida 5:33–34). Prominent [pdf] Muslim legal scholar Sherman Jackson writes, “The Spanish Maliki jurist Ibn `Abd al-Barr (d. 464/ 1070)) defines the agent of hiraba as ‘Anyone who disturbs free passage in the streets and renders them unsafe to travel, striving to spread corruption in the land by taking money, killing people or violating what God has made it unlawful to violate is guilty of hirabah . . .”

7. Sneak attacks are forbidden. Muslim commanders must give the enemy fair warning that war is imminent. The Prophet Muhammad at one point gave 4 months notice.

8. The Prophet Muhammad counseled doing good to those who harm you and is said to have commanded, “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

9. The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.”[5:8]

10. The Qur’an assures Christians and Jews of paradise if they believe and do good works, and commends Christians as the best friends of Muslims. I wrote elsewhere, “Dangerous falsehoods are being promulgated to the American public. The Quran does not preach violence against Christians.

Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): “Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.”

http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html

Well, I'm not sure of the motivation for bringing out the quantity argument is, it's kind of like saying "Who's worse, Hitler (6+ million), Pol Pot (1-3 million), Stalin (3-60 million) or Mao (40-70 million)?" in an argument about worst dictator. They are all terrible people who did awful things to humanity and should all be vilified regardless of ethnicity or religious affiliation.

Same thing about religious terrorist organizations. Sure, the Lord's Resistance Army have killed more people, but Boko Haram have done some absolutely atrocious things as well, that are equally despicable except in sheer quantity.

My original intent here was to bring up the fact that Islam is at it's core a violent religion. Christianity definitely is not. It's central teaching is essentially "turn the other cheek" and Jesus as a "reformer" of the Old Testament law. Among faith, prayer, charity, fasting and pilgrimage (the Five Pillars of Islam), jihad is one of the core teachings of Islam, and while we could argue endlessly between literal or metaphorical/spiritual interpretations of the word, it is recognized as something that is incredibly important to Muslims around the world, whether literal or otherwise.

I'm not denying the violence in other religions, I'm just trying to showcase the violence within Islam and why Muslim extremists have the motivation to do what they do. When a politically motivated Buddhist group tries to justify their acts of violence (i.e. Burma/Myanmar), they have to dig really deep into their religious texts to find that justification, and usually only through a translated commentary on an original text can they find that justification. But in Islam, it's presented in rather plain form that "killing the infidel/non-believer" is not only a duty of Muslims, but a laudable goal.

This is what I like, open discussion about a topic, rather than just sitting behind a keyboard, asserting an opinion as fact and then just dismissing anyone that tries to say otherwise.

@foxhound_fox:

WHAT JIHAD IS

• The Arabic word "jihad" is often translated as "holy war," but in a purely linguistic sense, the word " jihad" means struggling or striving.
• The arabic word for war is: "al-harb".
• In a religious sense, as described by the Quran and teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (s), "jihad" has many meanings. It can refer to internal as well as external efforts to be a good Muslims or believer, as well as working to inform people about the faith of Islam.
• If military jihad is required to protect the faith against others, it can be performed using anything from legal, diplomatic and economic to political means. If there is no peaceful alternative, Islam also allows the use of force, but there are strict rules of engagement. Innocents - such as women, children, or invalids - must never be harmed, and any peaceful overtures from the enemy must be accepted.
• Military action is therefore only one means of jihad, and is very rare. To highlight this point, the Prophet Mohammed told his followers returning from a military campaign: "This day we have returned from the minor jihad to the major jihad," which he said meant returning from armed battle to the peaceful battle for self-control and betterment.
• In case military action appears necessary, not everyone can declare jihad. The religious military campaign has to be declared by a proper authority, advised by scholars, who say the religion and people are under threat and violence is imperative to defend them. The concept of "just war" is very important.
• The concept of jihad has been hijacked by many political and religious groups over the ages in a bid to justify various forms of violence. In most cases, Islamic splinter groups invoked jihad to fight against the established Islamic order. Scholars say this misuse of jihad contradicts Islam.
• Examples of sanctioned military jihad include the Muslims' defensive battles against the Crusaders in medieval times, and before that some responses by Muslims against Byzantine and Persian attacks during the period of the early Islamic conquests.

WHAT JIHAD IS NOT

• Jihad is not a violent concept.
• Jihad is not a declaration of war against other religions. It is worth noting that the Koran specifically refers to Jews and Christians as "people of the book" who should be protected and respected. All three faiths worship the same God. Allah is just the Arabic word for God, and is used by Christian Arabs as well as Muslims.
• Military action in the name of Islam has not been common in the history of Islam. Scholars says most calls for violent jihad are not sanctioned by Islam.
• Warfare in the name of God is not unique to Islam. Other faiths throughout the world have waged wars with religious justifications

http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/understanding-islam/legal-rulings/5-jihad-a-misunderstood-concept-from-islam.html?start=9

Again, Koran forbids the killing of innocent people.

1. Terrorism is above all murder. Murder is strictly forbidden in the Qur’an. Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

2. If the motive for terrorism is religious, it is impermissible in Islamic law. It is forbidden to attempt to impose Islam on other people. The Qur’an says, “There is no compulsion in religion. The right way has become distinct from error.” (-The Cow, 2:256). Note that this verse was revealed in Medina in 622 AD or after and was never abrogated by any other verse of the Quran. Islam’s holy book forbids coercing people into adopting any religion. They have to willingly choose it.

3. Islamic law forbids aggressive warfare. The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

4. In the Islamic law of war, not just any civil engineer can declare or launch a war. It is the prerogative of the duly constituted leader of the Muslim community that engages in the war. Nowadays that would be the president or prime minister of the state, as advised by the mufti or national jurisconsult.

5. The killing of innocent non-combatants is forbidden. According to Sunni tradition, ‘Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, the first Caliph, gave these instructions to his armies: “I instruct you in ten matters: Do not kill women, children, the old, or the infirm; do not cut down fruit-bearing trees; do not destroy any town . . . ” (Malik’s Muwatta’, “Kitab al-Jihad.”)

6. Terrorism or hirabah is forbidden in Islamic law, which groups it with brigandage, highway robbery and extortion rackets– any illicit use of fear and coercion in public spaces for money or power. The principle of forbidding the spreading of terror in the land is based on the Qur’an (Surah al-Ma’ida 5:33–34). Prominent [pdf] Muslim legal scholar Sherman Jackson writes, “The Spanish Maliki jurist Ibn `Abd al-Barr (d. 464/ 1070)) defines the agent of hiraba as ‘Anyone who disturbs free passage in the streets and renders them unsafe to travel, striving to spread corruption in the land by taking money, killing people or violating what God has made it unlawful to violate is guilty of hirabah . . .”

7. Sneak attacks are forbidden. Muslim commanders must give the enemy fair warning that war is imminent. The Prophet Muhammad at one point gave 4 months notice.

8. The Prophet Muhammad counseled doing good to those who harm you and is said to have commanded, “Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil.” (Al-Tirmidhi)

9. The Qur’an demands of believers that they exercise justice toward people even where they have reason to be angry with them: “And do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness.”[5:8]

10. The Qur’an assures Christians and Jews of paradise if they believe and do good works, and commends Christians as the best friends of Muslims. I wrote elsewhere, “Dangerous falsehoods are being promulgated to the American public. The Quran does not preach violence against Christians.

Quran 5:69 says (Arberry): “Surely they that believe, and those of Jewry, and the Christians, and those Sabeaans, whoso believes in God and the Last Day, and works righteousness–their wage waits them with their Lord, and no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow.”

http://www.juancole.com/2013/04/islamic-forbids-terrorism.html

Hot damn I wish I had time to counter all of this. Whew, I'm going to try.

1. Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

You shouldn't cherry-pick the Qur'an for peaceful passages, because there are 2-3 more elsewhere that contradict them.

2. If this is the case, then why throughout Islam's history did all of it's leader conquer nations then kill anyone who refused to submit and covert? Oops...

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/forced-conversion.aspx

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Suras 9 and 5 are the last major chapters that Muhammad narrated - hence abrogating what came before, including the oft-quoted verse 2:256 -"There is no compulsion in religion...".

Pay attention to the bolded/underlined, it's important. Abrogation:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naskh_(tafsir)

3. You need to read this again: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/violence.aspx It addresses this point better than I can.

4. Okay, now I'm starting to suspect you of just posting a single apologist response... oh wait, that link at the bottom of your post is just that. None of these are actually your own arguments, just someone else's taken out of context which you think actually address my points.

Thank you, you saved me a lot of time.

Please respond to my original claim here. Islam is a violent religion, that promotes violence in the name of the religion, was spread through the use of violence and coercion (fact of history here, even if the Qur'an contains a single passage that "forbids" it) and modern politically-motivated Islamic terror groups are a severe threat to humanity and secular society.

I'm done arguing with you if all you are going to do is ignore my points and throw out a red herring to distract from the point I was trying to make. Learn how to debate properly, then come back and present a counter-argument to what I have presented.

@foxhound_fox: Again you are taking things out of context and not making any sense. You could do the same to many religions. Your gonna sit here and act like Christianity didnt kill non believers in the past? Such a silly argument.

Islam is a religion of peace, it has coexisted in America for how many years? We can find radical thinkers no matter were we look who use out of context scripture to justify their evil. Judaism is a religion of peace too. And yet it has way more violent scripture and teachings than the Koran. Yet i bet you condemn their religion will you?

@Skarwolf:

But America is not a Muslim country. It's a free nation and has to lead by example.

@iandizion713: Instead of copying and pasting someone else's work, why don't you put your own thoughts into words? I'm more interested in that then some silly semantics argument that is only really justifiable between two people who speak/read fluent Arabic.

Jihad as interpreted by Muslims is both a spiritual AND literal holy war. It all depends on who you ask, and if, for the love of fvck, if you bring out a No True Scotsman, I'm done.

@foxhound_fox: I have used my own thoughts. You asked for scriptures promoting peace and i found them. I thought you were a religious scholar? Yet you seem dumbfounded by the evidence.

You seem to think Muslims just run around promoting violence all day everyday. But its a proven fact they dont. They have coexisted with our society for a very long and peaceful amount of time.

No, I asked for a counter-argument to my claim. YOU asked for scriptural evidence supporting MY claim. Jesus fvck you can't argue for shit.

@foxhound_fox: You asked me to find you scripture that Islam is a religion of peace. I did just that. Youll find no stats supporting Islam is a main supporter of violence. They have lived peaceful with Americans for ages. We have more statistical evidence that supports Christianity is a more harmful than Islam in America.

Regarding the argument about Islam being violent at its core, the same argument applies to Christianity, which is what this study demonstrates:

Not only is the Old Testament twice as violent as the Quran, but the surprising thing is that even the New Testament contains more references to violence than the Quran.

I've read a large bit of the New Testament and it didn't strike me nearly as violent as the Qur'an. Especially considering a difference of 0.7%. I guess I just missed the passages that are considered violent.

But hey, textual scholars know more than I do, and that's a very interesting conclusion they've made. At the very least, I won't be defending the non-violence of Christianity in comparison to the violence of Islam as much as I once did. That said, since the Reformation, Christianity, at least on a social level, not necessarily a textual one, has mellowed out a lot compared to pre-Reformation times.

Which is why I've been calling for an Islamic Reformation for years now. Rise of the moderates and *gasp* perhaps even liberal Muslims.

No, again, I asked you to counter my argument.

And that's great, all the moderate Muslims fleeing the extremists in their home country live peacefully in Western countries. How about we talk about Muslims killing Coptic Christians in Egypt?

@foxhound_fox: Why would Muslims flee such evil men? Sounds like the people who fled Christianity and escaped to America. Lets talk about Christians killing Muslims around the world. Lets talk about Hindu's killing Muslims around the world. Lets talk about America killing Muslims around the world.

Religion is crap. Period. It doesn't matter if its Islam, Christianity, etc. Its all fake and needs to go away.

Having said that, have you ever been to a country controlled by Muslims? If you care about women's rights, you'd have a heart attack.

Okay, let's also talk about Muslims killing Muslims around the world (Sunni on Shi'a and vice versa, Wahabbi on Kurd, everyone on Sufi, etc).

You are being the worst kind of apologist right now. You are ignoring facts to help further along your delusion that somehow Islam, out of every single world religion, is the least violent of them all, when in fact, it's one of the most violent throughout it's history and it's existence as the second largest religion in the world is almost entirely based around coercive conversion, a thing you claim it's holy book forbids, yet history shows us the complete opposite.

I'm going to stop beating around the bush here, I am largely anti-religion for the most part. I would advocate people adopt a stance of irreligiosity full stop, especially in light of things like secular humanism, where someone is inclined to do good for it's own sake, rather than do good out of fear of supernatural reprisal or for some otherworldly reward.

Religion has played it's role in human history and has enough blood on it's hands to justify giving it up at this point, for anyone interested in the betterment of our civilization. But hey, so long as people respect the law of the land, treat others as they wish to be treated, and in general be nice people, I couldn't give a flying fvck about what they believe in the privacy of their own homes. That's their delusion to have and they have every right to have it.

Politicized religion is the greatest of evils that humanity has thrust upon itself. Whether theistic or atheistic religion (talking about the cult of personalities like Stalin or Mao), it has done nothing but bad things, and Islam is no different. If Muslims want to be treated as equals, they need to do their part to take control of their political voice back from the extremist minority and start expressing this "peace" they claim to have, because until the last couple years, there has been a absolute shit-ton of indifference on their parts. And their holy book calling for the death of infidels isn't helping things.

They need a Martin Luther to come along and "cut the fat" so to speak.

Islamaphobia is a term created by the Muslim Brotherhood, a terrorist organization. There is no such thing as a phobia of any of these big religions. They all contain mountains of life destroying gibberish. Islam is currently the one that is attacking free expression, and claiming the right to violent repression of expression in expiation of their feelings.

If something is dangerous, being wary of it is not a phobia. You are only prejudiced against something if you dont know anything about it. I'm postjudiced towards Islam.

I havnt stated such. All ive stated is Islam is a religion of peace and we should respect their religion and costumes. Your the one trying to argue like its the worst religion in the world and we should ban it. It makes zero sense. People are free to believe whatever the hell they want. As long as they arent running around in America killing so called infidels, i see no reason to fear or condemn them and their ways.

You want to ban religion? Good luck with that. Youll cause more harm then youll cause good. Again, ive showed you already it is against Islam to kill innocent people, including infidels. You said it yourself, what they choose to believe is up to them. So why do you stand and defend persecuting them? Why not unite, support, and love them?

dont bother with him. he is an insipid troll.

@hillelslovak: Were having a respectful debate, please dont waste our time with your childish insults.

Hadith

Muslim (20:4645) – “…He (the Messenger of Allah) did that and said: There is another act which elevates the position of a man in Paradise to a grade one hundred (higher), and the elevation between one grade and the other is equal to the height of the heaven from the earth. He (Abu Sa’id) said: What is that act? He replied: Jihad in the way of Allah! Jihad in the way of Allah!”

Muslim (20:4696) – “the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: ‘One who died but did not fight in the way of Allah nor did he express any desire (or determination) for Jihid died the death of a hypocrite.'”

Tabari 9:69 “Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us”

Ibn Ishaq: 327 – “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq: 992 – “Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah.”

Quran

Quran (2:191-193) – “And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution [of Muslims] is worse than slaughter [of non-believers]… but if desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah.”

Quran (2:216) – “Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.”

Quran (3:56) – “As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help.”

Quran (4:74) – “Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward.”

I'm not the one posting absurdity about a religion of peace, like you. I just bring the foundational precepts from the Quran and Hadith. And just realize, if I were a practicing Muslim, and you told me how none of the passages above are not true, I would be obliged by those books to murder you.

I should never be forced to respect anyone. Respect is earned, not given.

And good lord, you have trouble debating. Please, enlighten me to where I said it's "the worst religion in the world" and "we should ban it". Go ahead, I know I never said such things.

Did you even read what I wrote or are you just glazing over the words in front of you and constructing their meaning through your own deluded mind? Where did I say I wanted to ban religion? I said people should GIVE UP religion because it's lost it's value to modern, secular society, and if they want to hold private, non-political religious beliefs, that is entirely their right. But hey, you don't like arguing with an opposing view, just what you want to argue with, even if it's a strawman.

You are really naive my friend, REALLY naive. Especially when you look at your style of argumentation and how you literally don't address any of my point in your responses, you just make something up, claim I said it, then argue against it. You have yet to address a single point I've made.

I said several posts ago, I do NOT have an issue with Muslims, I have an issue with Islam. I'm not sure you can understand the subtle difference here, but it is worth understanding if you give it time. I have an issue with most religions and their teachings. Most of them are archaic and morally defunct systems that serve no purpose but to divide people based on several factors rather than uniting them... especially when they are politically empowered.

There is clear evidence contained in the Qur'an that contradicts what you say. Not only that, but textual scholars point out that later passages supersede those earlier passages containing "peaceful" messages, and this comes directly from the Islamic textual authority itself, not some outside, secular group. But you can just continue ignoring these facts and replacing them with your own... which is exactly why I initially responded to you with "#alternativefacts".

@hillelslovak: I don't even think he does it on purpose, honestly. He seems incredibly naive and intellectually abated, only going by what others tell him to think, rather than forming his own thoughts and conclusions about things. A perfect example of the result of a "participation award" based society.

It's worse. At so many points, issue after issue, he is pinned down with facts, whilst refusing to support his assertions in the least. He then ripostes to an attack never formed, and insults when his assertions fail to impress. HE states flat out irrational nonsense, this thread is proof. I think he is actively trolling. Look at the arguments he is going against, that were never even made. He is arguing you as if you hate all Muslims, and want to ban Islam. I have never heard anybody make either argument,aside from some other psychotic religious folks on the christian sides. He's being actively dishonest, and he grinds every thread to a halt with this shit.

A debate usually involves an equal back and forth exchange of ideas and facts. All you've given me is someone else's thoughts.