Donald Trump tells Nato allies to spend 4% of GDP on defence

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Treflis

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#51  Edited By Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts

@Jacanuk said:
@Treflis said:
@Jacanuk said:
@Treflis said:
@Jacanuk said:

It´s more interesting to see the hypocrisy among the Europeans than it is to see Trump not wanting to pay the tap for Europes party.

Not to mention it´s interesting to see Germany's role in all this, there are sanctions against Russia, yet Germany is pressuring Denmark and other Nordic countries at the Baltic sea to get them to agree on a gas pipeline that will bypass Ukraine completely. And make Germany even more dependent on Russian gas.

Trump may be a clown, but he has the long end of the stick on this topic.

I was unaware that military defense was a party, and it's amusing that the host who brought the liquor and kept saying " let's keep this party going" now start to complain that the others are drinking the booze and dancing. Also as far as Germany is concerned, Stoltenberg isn't wrong when he said that even during the cold war nations did trade deals that equally benefited nations that were on paper hostile to one another. Even today many nations do some pretty shady stuff just to ensure their access to funds and resources remain. Is it good? Possibly.

A content nation is less likely to do anything hostile towards another nation then one who isn't, and while I personally think the sanctions ought to be respected I can understand why Germany wants that pipeline. For the same reason why I understand that the US keeps backing up Israel and used to put people they wanted in power in nations that had resources the US wanted.

The thing is that the US has the right to demand Europe to start bringing their own booze to the party, but with Trump it's announced for all to see. Including Russia. It doesn't show strength but it shows a fracture that Russia can use to wedge the whole thing apart and when that happens, who do you think will come out on top? A US that's ostracized their European allies, Or Russia whom Europe will then turn to and go " So...wanna party together?"

Well, what Europe has been able to do, feels like a party on America's dime. But you are right, America's previous governments have been weak and not been hard on Europe and demanding that they start paying their own way. So it's about time right?

And ya nations do some pretty shady stuff, which makes it kinda refreshing to have a leader like Trump who speaks his mind and doesn´t go behind closed doors and to a place where nothing will be done. Which is exactly the way to do it, And another point here is that Europe seem to gather together to respond to the pressaure from Trump and also seem more united than ever before. So it´s not all bad and it´s good to see Trump hitting the nail spot on with the Germans, they have long enough played the good guy while their dealings as far from it.

Especially with Ukraine, the only reason anyone cares about them is because they are a major hub for Russian pipelines

You call it refreshing, I call it not being able to do diplomacy.

Diplomacy is useless when it´s behind closed doors.

I thought you guys were for transparency?

You guys?
Anyways, Transparency is good but within reasons. Let's take the situation at hand. Trump is angry cause the EU isn't spending what he sees is a acceptable amount of money on Military defense and instead of bringing it up behind closed doors and come to an arrangement before revealing it to the press and the rest of the world. He waves the dirty laundry out for all to see, including those who sees a benefit for their nations if the entire US-EU alliance falls apart. It also allows them more leverage in attempting to convince various nations to turn away from the UN and thus further fracturing it.
Now maybe this is what you want, the UN and NATO to be dissolved, There are plenty of people that want that for various reasons.

To put diplomacy behind doors in a more simpler therm, If a member of your family does something shocking then you handle it within your family. You don't run out and broadcast on international news that your brother touches himself to your DVD copy of Barb Wire.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#52 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

Does this mean Donald wants to bump up our military another 100 billion a year then? We just had a gut breaking 75 billion deficit posted for June. Europe sees the problems with having a robust military industrial complex keeping a nation hostage like the US. They'd be insane to follow suit.

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vl4d_l3nin

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#53  Edited By vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3700 Posts

@HoolaHoopMan said:

Does this mean Donald wants to bump up our military another 100 billion a year then? We just had a gut breaking 75 billion deficit posted for June. Europe sees the problems with having a robust military industrial complex keeping a nation hostage like the US. They'd be insane to follow suit.

Greece, Poland and Estonia; the most stagnant and the fastest growing economies in NATO, can make their targets. There is no reason why the others can't.

If I was German, I'd be pretty embarrassed that Germany, with its well functioning economy, doesn't meet the defense expectations of our allies, when a severely indebted country like Greece does.

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mandzilla

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#55 mandzilla  Moderator
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@vl4d_l3nin: Germany is already committed to spending 2% by 2024. Greece has always had higher than average defence spending due to regional tensions with Turkey, another NATO member. I don't see why any German should be embarrassed that their government isn't wastefully pouring money into the military during peace time, when there are plenty of other things to prioritise within the budget.

It's actually quite interesting how the dynamics in the alliance have changed over the years. Lord Ismay, NATO's first Secretary General and one of its biggest advocates famously said that it was created to "keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.” Ironically, now Germany is expected to play a leading role in the alliance.

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LJS9502_basic

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#56 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178833 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:

Does this mean Donald wants to bump up our military another 100 billion a year then? We just had a gut breaking 75 billion deficit posted for June. Europe sees the problems with having a robust military industrial complex keeping a nation hostage like the US. They'd be insane to follow suit.

Greece, Poland and Estonia; the most stagnant and the fastest growing economies in NATO, can make their targets. There is no reason why the others can't.

If I was German, I'd be pretty embarrassed that Germany, with its well functioning economy, doesn't meet the defense expectations of our allies, when a severely indebted country like Greece does.

I'm more embarrassed that the US increased military spending when there was no need to do so.

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vl4d_l3nin

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#57 vl4d_l3nin
Member since 2013 • 3700 Posts

@mandzilla said:

@vl4d_l3nin: Germany is already committed to spending 2% by 2024. Greece has always had higher than average defence spending due to regional tensions with Turkey, another NATO member. I don't see why any German should be embarrassed that their government isn't wastefully pouring money into the military during peace time, when there are plenty of other things to prioritise within the budget.

It's actually quite interesting how the dynamics in the alliance have changed over the years. Lord Ismay, NATO's first Secretary General and one of its biggest advocates famously said that it was created to "keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.” Ironically, now Germany is expected to play a leading role in the alliance.

It's a very uneasy peace we are in right now. Poland and Estonia have expressed concerns over Russian territorial ambitions, and it's not without merit. And if military ambitions are "wastefully pouring money" why the hell did the EU greenlight the military expansion of PESCO last year? Just to spite the US and the UK? because that what it seems like

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HoolaHoopMan

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#58 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin said:
@HoolaHoopMan said:

Does this mean Donald wants to bump up our military another 100 billion a year then? We just had a gut breaking 75 billion deficit posted for June. Europe sees the problems with having a robust military industrial complex keeping a nation hostage like the US. They'd be insane to follow suit.

Greece, Poland and Estonia; the most stagnant and the fastest growing economies in NATO, can make their targets. There is no reason why the others can't.

If I was German, I'd be pretty embarrassed that Germany, with its well functioning economy, doesn't meet the defense expectations of our allies, when a severely indebted country like Greece does.

My comment was a reflection that spending should be bumped up to 4%, which is twice as much as his original push for NATO. If Trump were serious to make the US match this amount we would increase our expenditures by hundreds of billions.

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mandzilla

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#59  Edited By mandzilla  Moderator
Member since 2017 • 4686 Posts
@vl4d_l3nin said:
@mandzilla said:

@vl4d_l3nin: Germany is already committed to spending 2% by 2024. Greece has always had higher than average defence spending due to regional tensions with Turkey, another NATO member. I don't see why any German should be embarrassed that their government isn't wastefully pouring money into the military during peace time, when there are plenty of other things to prioritise within the budget.

It's actually quite interesting how the dynamics in the alliance have changed over the years. Lord Ismay, NATO's first Secretary General and one of its biggest advocates famously said that it was created to "keep the Soviet Union out, the Americans in, and the Germans down.” Ironically, now Germany is expected to play a leading role in the alliance.

It's a very uneasy peace we are in right now. Poland and Estonia have expressed concerns over Russian territorial ambitions, and it's not without merit. And if military ambitions are "wastefully pouring money" why the hell did the EU greenlight the military expansion of PESCO last year? Just to spite the US and the UK? because that what it seems like

I don't see overt Russian military action being so much of a concern these days, but rather covert aggression, such as election meddling, cyber warfare and political assassinations etc. Of course it is good to be prepared, but at what point do you enter into the realm of diminishing returns? Russia's defence spending is about $69 billion, over 4% of their GDP. It's actually falling now though, as sanctions start to bite, and the economy is struggling. Meanwhile the combined military spending of EU countries is over $226 billion, while still being on average under 2%, so it's really much of a comparison. If anything, Russia wastefully pours money into their military in order to try and match the levels of Europe, when in reality, they are much weaker now than they were back in the Soviet Union days.

Now in terms of PESCO, and Europe developing an alternative to NATO, that is not to spite the US or UK. Rather, I'd say that they have reached a stage where they can't rely upon either country in the same way that they did in the past, due to Trump administration and Brexit rhetoric. If all you hear is how useless and obsolete NATO is, or that the US might withdraw from it (after having pulled out of several other international organisations) then of course you're going to develop a plan B.

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AFBrat77

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#60 AFBrat77
Member since 2004 • 26848 Posts

I say 3% for everyone in nato,, that's reasonable

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horgen

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#62 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127501 Posts

@AFBrat77: some countries gonna need more time than 2024 for that. Hell even Norway doesn’t have a decent plan for reaching 2% in 6 years.