Do you believe in Systematic Oppresion? Are Jewish people considered oppressed or oppressors?

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SargentD

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SargentD  Online

Poll Do you believe in Systematic Oppresion? Are Jewish people considered oppressed or oppressors? (17 votes)

No I don't believe in Systematic Oppression. The jewish people are neither oppressed or oppressors. 41%
Yes I believe in Systematic Oppresion. And believe Jewish people are oppressed by Systematic Oppresion. 18%
Yes I believe in Systematic Oppresion. And believe Jews benefit from Systematic Oppresion, similar to Whites. 41%

Hey I was thinking about this and was wondering what other people think. With all this anti semite talk with Ye and people accusing Trump of being anti semite.

Now me personally I don't buy into systematic oppression here in America. This is a theory that has been toxic imo and led people to see groups of people as either oppressors or oppressed. I'm not into collectivism or identity politics. Truly believe everyone is an individual and where they end up will depend on the choices made by the individual.

But for those who do believe in Systematic Oppresion I want to ask something in regards to the Jewish community compared to the White community.

So CNN, The View, MSNBC, the Atlantic, NPR, WaPo, Vice, all these big media corporations, can write and tell stories How white people are oppressive, have white privilege, hold much of the power/money, due to a theory of Systematic Oppression, but if someone happens to call the group who owns the majority of the Media, Hollywood/entertainment, and Banks "They". And if they say who "They" are... They will be deplatformed, deals pulled, and have your name dragged through the dirt...like why is it so blasphemous to mention Jewish people have been very successful and are in high places of power and influence?

How do people get away with accusing white people of "Systematic Oppression" when the "Theys" take a huge slice of the pie in the highest places of power and influence...

Is it just the fact that Jewish people in WW2 went through the Holocaust in Germany that we can't point out there are a lot of Jewish people in high positions and are very successful as an overall group?I mean I don't see it as a bad thing but it is true, the Jewish community is not hurting they are doing well as a whole. It seems like it's perfectly fine to generalize white people as being in positions of power/money but not Jewish people??

I don't even believe in Systematic Oppression, but for those who do doesn't this seem hypocritical to you at all?

Genuinely interested in what you guys think.

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KathaarianCode

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#2 KathaarianCode
Member since 2022 • 1400 Posts

The Jewish went to several holocausts that's why it's complicated. And when you talk about white people, that can mean a lot of different people, Jewish included.

Of course when it's racists like Trump or Ye(?) having that kind of conversation it gets extra complicated. But it's not less truth that Jewish people play the victim card to get exempt from criticism, but in a way they are entitled to, as they have legitimate fears, even if it gets exploited by some unscrupulous members of the community. I'm 100% in favour of calling out Israel for their crimes and doing something about it. As I am of not accepting the Holocaust card as a immunity play for mistakes done by the individual.

If there was a time when white people had been persecuted and slaughtered by the millions, and if similar events had happened through history, targeting white identity (which outside white supremacists isn't even a real cultural identity) then maybe one could draw some equivalence.

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SargentD

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#3 SargentD  Online
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@kathaariancode: you don't think white people have an identity?

Why is it different to where white identity isn't real but black identity can be real? Are black people who identify with their race also supremacist like you say whites who identify with their race are? Just because they identify with their race?

Vice versa with all others?

How does that even make sense?

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KathaarianCode

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#4 KathaarianCode
Member since 2022 • 1400 Posts

@sargentd: White people can definitely have an identity, what I said was that except for white supremacists I don't think being white in itself is an identity. African Americans due to having their cultural identity reset due to slavery and segregation is a different case, such as any group who was persecuted for who they are.

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SargentD

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#5  Edited By SargentD  Online
Member since 2020 • 5182 Posts

@kathaariancode: honestly I feel like both white Americans and black Americans cultural identity was reset by being in America.

Being black isn't an identity anymore than it is being white.

I'd agree with you if you felt the same for both. But you give credence to black identity but not white identity.

I say both are bs

But to each their own

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KathaarianCode

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#6 KathaarianCode
Member since 2022 • 1400 Posts

@sargentd: Everything is an identity if people choose to. I'm not disputing that.

My opinion is that, as someone who feels no need to identify as part of anything, I still can understand how I might feel inclined to seek an identity if I was labelled as something, persecuted for a specific set of characteristics and/or seen as inferior.

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br0kenrabbit

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#7 br0kenrabbit
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@sargentd said:
we can't point out there are a lot of Jewish people in high positions and are very successful as an overall group?

Do you not know your history?

Historically, Christians and Muslims were forbidden to charge usury. Finance was one of the few markets Jews were allowed to work in. Kings and governments would keep them around just for this reason.

Old money makes new money.

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Nirgal

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#8  Edited By Nirgal
Member since 2019 • 1050 Posts

In reference to the op, i don't think Jewish people right now are in a position of suffering oppression. As a group they are among the most educated, politically powerful and economically successful groups in every country they reside.

Sure some people dislike them, like it happens with many other groups of people, but does that dislike has an effect on achieving the previously mentioned characteristics? And is being disliked and looked down by some a characteristic that is uncommon among the general population?

On a more general note, I think systematic oppression views come from reading current reality as an extension of the past and assuming wrong doings in the past have a lingering effect on the present with the same degree of influence as the original actions.

For instance, a person may say that women are an opressesed "minority", by claiming they could not vote before 1919 ( in the USA) so you will get even Hollywood celebrity actresses appear on camera claiming to be victims themselves (as a part of that opressesed group).

Of course, their individual lives, and even the collective lives of some subsets of the female population (like females of European decent) are currently among the wealthiest groups in that country.

But a reductionist view of a person's single characteristic, coupled with the disingenuous proposition that past grievances affect current members of a group as much as it affected their ancestors, allows otherwise privileged individual to both enjoy their current level of wealth and power, and also play the role of the disadvantaged underdog fighting against the odds.

In their own heads of course.

I am not saying that discrimination doesn't exist, but it does not to the extent it happened even 50 years ago and using historical examples doesn't reflect the present circumstances.

More So, it's important to refer specifically to which kind of oppression or discrimination is taking place, who is the recipient of such (based on more than one single characteristics as such simplifications don't reflect how reality works) , and what's the system behind that oppression (are we talking about law, social customs, specific contexts)

Otherwise it becomes a blanket statement without much meaning or any actionable solution.

And much like the current trend of Hollywood pop sociology, all we get is an instrument for people to build their ego and reputation within certain groups.

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shellcase86

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#10 shellcase86
Member since 2012 • 6450 Posts

Systemic oppression? Sure.

I wouldn't consider Jewish people oppressed, for the most part. They could be viewed as oppressors, though, in some light.

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#11 GirlUSoCrazy
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SargentD

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#12 SargentD  Online
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@nirgal: well said.

Thanks for sharing, genuinely enjoyed reading this take. Can't say I disagree with anything

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#13 Nirgal
Member since 2019 • 1050 Posts

@sargentd: good to know we agree on some things! :)

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#14  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 55067 Posts

@sargentd: ROFL did you watch the Tim Pool show with the unholy trinity of Ye, Milo, and Fuentes? Is that where this is coming from?

As for the question, they are non-Christians that are often viewed as part of a non-white racial/ethnic group...so yes, they are generally oppressed in white-dominant, Christian-dominant societies.

If you want to argue those points, that's fine; all I'm going to say is that synagogues keep getting shot up, Jews are still stereotyped and targeted for criticism more than most...so yes, they are oppressed.

Rarely are they the oppressor outside of Israel.

@nirgal said:

In reference to the op, i don't think Jewish people right now are in a position of suffering oppression. As a group they are among the most educated, politically powerful and economically successful groups in every country they reside.

Sure some people dislike them, like it happens with many other groups of people, but does that dislike has an effect on achieving the previously mentioned characteristics? And is being disliked and looked down by some a characteristic that is uncommon among the general population?

...

I somewhat agree with your stance but I think if you take the historical average of how they are treated, you could still say they are oppressed.

Things have gotten better, but I don't think they are good enough yet.

As for Israel, well, that's a tough situation. They certainly seem like oppressors and they are in many regards. But keep in mind that Syria, Iran, Egypt, and more want to wipe them off the face of the Earth.

At the end of the day, I think the best we can say to Jews around the world is "Oh well things aren't as bad as they used to be" and that's not good enough.

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#15  Edited By SargentD  Online
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@mrbojangles25: I did watch it lol, I saw the line up, said "holy shit, Nick, Ye, and Milo that's going to be a wild talk"

Started to listen and it just turned into Tim Pool not wanting Ye to say the word Jew.

Like Tim looked so scared and steered the entire conversation into a self defense mode, because at the end of the day Tim knows his livelihood will be stripped from him if he didn't constantly push back on Ye any time he said anything about Jewish people.

The irony of it too, when Tim starts off the podcast with a big blown up article by the Hill, of Mike Pence Condemning Kanye as anti-Semite, and mad Trump he had dinner with him.

Like what did Tim expect after starting the podcast with that article?? He acted all offended when Ye responded to it lol... He started the conversation and then got all bitchy Ye started talking about it. so Ye said screw this show, ✌️ and dipped.

I was genuinely disappointed, what could have been such a good episode, and Tim just proved he himself must walk on egg shells and censor himself and others that come on his show. He would have just been better off not inviting him.

The podcast with Nick, Ye, and Alex was lit tho. Very entertaining. Info Wars has it's own platform infrastructure, so no YouTube rules. Don't have to walk on eggshells. Which made for a great show.

Tim Pool is being a salty bitch about it too. Accusing Ye of trying to "set him up" and claiming he was setting up to leave on purpose, pathetic. honestly. Tim Pool exposed himself.

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#16  Edited By SargentD  Online
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@mrbojangles25: as far as the oppressor thing. Aren't the oppressors the upper class of society? People with real power and money?

If you believe in systematic oppression, why can Jews be both one the most successful and powerful groups as a collective while also claim to be the victims?

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mrbojangles25

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#17  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 55067 Posts

@sargentd: I'll need to look for that Jones, Fuentes, and Ye episode. Alex is always good for a laugh (a scary one, though), I can't imagine what an episode with a certified white-supremacist holocaust denier and a Clayton Bigsby would be like.

@sargentd said:

@mrbojangles25: as far as the oppressor thing. Aren't the oppressors the upper class of society? People with real power and money?

If you believe in systematic oppression, why can Jews be both one the most successful and powerful groups as a collective while also claim to be the victims?

I suppose so, but are there enough of them? Do they have enough power? And who exactly are they oppressing?

The whole discussion is frankly anti-Semitic to me because the notion that Jews are some elite cabal is, well...anti-Semitic.

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#18 SargentD  Online
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@mrbojangles25: I find the ideology behind systemic oppression stupid. And I don't get why it's been appropriate to call out white people for having power/money and be openly labeled as oppressors. When statistically Jewish people do even better than White people in America. Education, wealth, they do great, nothing wrong with that. That's great.

I would agree that It's anti semetic to talk about Jewish people as a collective if people would also say that doing the same thing to white people is wrong too. But the double standard by the people who push systematic oppresion are just to blunt and in my face.

Like I said I flat out just don't believe in that ideology or systematic oppression

If talking about Jews as a collective in regards to power and money is wrong, then it's wrong to do it to white people too imo.

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#19 Nirgal
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@mrbojangles25: does not necessary has to be a "cabal" as you put it.

But being generally of a much higher income and education than average as a group doesnt exactly put you under the opressesed category, unless that word has lost its meaning.

And it's points out to the dangers of using historical examples to describe the current situation of a group of people. Do Jewish people right now live in a way that is even remotely comparative to Auschwitz? In western countries, obviously not.

Do Jewish people enjoy generally higher economical wellbeing than the average population? Yes, they do.

No, does that justify conspiracy theories against them? Well no, but let's ts put things in to perspective. The world isn't made of absolutes.

You are not always either an victim or a victimizer.

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#20  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 55067 Posts

@sargentd: I think the reason we call out white people for it is because they tend to be the perpetrator, whereas with Jews they tend to be the victim. Not trying to be judgmental, just using a historical lens and sort of stating the obvious. Compare the last 200 years of Imperialism at the hands of England, Europe, and the US and then compare the last 200 years of the suffering of the Jewish people.

Yes, Jews are often seen to be in positions of wealth, power, and influence but there has been research done that this is actually because of oppression. Specifically, if your people are historically persecuted, it makes sense to obtain positions of influence so you can, for example, get forged passports to leave a country that wants to execute you. Or it makes sense to horde wealth so you can afford to bribe people to help you escape said country. Ditto for being well-connected to powerful people.

In other words, it's a survival mechanism; not something done to systemically oppress others.

I get where you're coming from with the double standard angle, I just think the history of white folk is (on average) to be the oppressors, whereas with Jewish folks their history (again, on average) is to be the oppressed.

I will concede the idea of systemic oppression is becoming less relevant with time, I don't want to dismiss it out of hand, though.

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#21  Edited By SargentD  Online
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@mrbojangles25: here's the link too it. put on some Factorio and let it just play in the background.

https://banned.video/watch?id=63891b1317ee1975b0dbf7e1

Seriously tho, I'm pretty perplexed.

You guys know im a fan of Trump.

But I'm also a fan of Milo, Ye, and Nick

I never would have imagined 2 years ago, Milo and Fuentes would be working on a presidential campaign for Kanye and be going to Trump to see if they would run together lol

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Nirgal

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#22  Edited By Nirgal
Member since 2019 • 1050 Posts

@mrbojangles25: i think if you study History in the entire world and taking in to consideration its full lengh you would see that recent concepts such as "white" are really irrelevant and that humans as a whole have been both opressors and victims time and time again, regardless of tribe, city, nationality, culture or "race".

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#23 LJS9502_basic  Online
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@nirgal said:

@mrbojangles25: i think if you study History in the entire world and taking in to consideration its full lengh you would see that recent concepts such as "white" are really irrelevant and that humans as a whole have been both opressors and victims time and time again, regardless of tribe, city, nationality, culture or "race".

True. I assume he's looking through the lens of certain countries where they would be the majority but in all cultures throughout history these things were practiced. There is no specific group that never shared in the blame.

I think it's better we move on from blaming the past and deal with the issues today. One thing the trump era did was bring the hate and bigotry to the surface. So we need to start educating people.

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Zaryia

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#24 Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 20491 Posts

@sargentd said:

and Nick

Why are you a fan of an antisemitic white supremacist?

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#25  Edited By LJS9502_basic  Online
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@zaryia said:
@sargentd said:

and Nick

Why are you a fan of an antisemitic white supremacist?

Think about that for a minute.

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#26  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 20491 Posts
@LJS9502_basic said:
@zaryia said:
@sargentd said:

and Nick

Why are you a fan of an antisemitic white supremacist?

Think about that for a minute.

Weird he even made several posts defending Kanye from direct and unquestionable antisemitic remarks. He also defended a quotes from a Republican white supremacist saying this needs to be a Christian nation again while bashing jews, and greed with the quote (wild).

Now he makes this bullshit thread. Hmm........

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mrbojangles25

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#27 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 55067 Posts

@zaryia said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@zaryia said:

Why are you a fan of an antisemitic white supremacist?

Think about that for a minute.

Weird he even made several posts defending Kanye from direct and unquestionable antisemitic remarks. He also defended a quotes from a Republican white supremacist saying this needs to be a Christian nation again while bashing jews, and greed with the quote (wild).

...

I mean it makes sense. Dude comes off relatively civil when discussing things on this website, but I imagine that's more just him taking a hint from these "debaters" like Fuentes, Crowder, Shapiro, et al but it doesn't change the fact that their values are absolutely horrible.

If you like Milo, Fuentes, and even Ye, guess what? You like bigots, and you probably are one yourself.

@zaryia said:

...

Now he makes this bullshit thread. Hmm........

That's why my first question to him was "did you watch the Tim Pool show with Milo, Fuentes, and Ye" and his answer was a gleeful "yes I did!".

I doubt he watched it ironically. Only reason I know about it is because I listen to Knowledge Fight, a podcast that critiques Alex Jones and, occasionally, other far right lunatics.

Anyway, point is: if you watch/listen to these shows non-ironically, you're probably a terrible person.

I don't like the pick on individual posters on here but I feel kind of duped; comes off civil but I've always had my suspicions, now all that has been confirmed and I just can't believe he hasn't been banned yet.