Are politics impacting your life?

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#1 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45435 Posts

Research: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0221870

NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/09/25/764216567/is-politics-stressing-you-out-heres-how-to-keep-caring-without-losing-your-cool

An interesting survey by the University of Nebraska.

It seems that Americans "are suffering some pretty negative consequences because of their attention to and engagement in politics," says author Kevin Smith, a political scientist at the University of Nebraska, Lincoln, discussing the survey results.

...

Nearly 40% of respondents said that politics was a cause of stress in their lives. About 20% reported losing sleep, feeling fatigued or being depressed owing to politics.

Between 10% and 30% of the respondents said that politics took an emotional toll on them, by causing anger, frustration, hate or guilt, or caused them to make comments they later regretted.

About 20% reported that politics had damaged their friendships. And, says Smith, "16% say that politics has made my home life less pleasant."

It's interesting to see how defined people have become by their identity and politics which can be detrimental to someone's health.

An interesting take away from their research as well...

"As of early 2017, the patterns in our data clearly and consistently suggest that people who are more likely to report negative health-related impacts from politics are younger, unemployed, more dogmatic, more liberal, have relatively low opinions of their political opposites, discuss politics frequently, and participate at high rates. Two personality traits—agreeableness and emotional stability—are associated with experiencing fewer of these negative outcomes.

...

Our results also provide insight into the populations most likely to believe politics is adversely affecting them at the time the survey went to the field. They are younger and unemployed; more disagreeable (more critical and quarrelsome), and less emotionally stable (more anxious and easily upset). They tend to be politically liberal, strongly disapprove of President Donald Trump, and have low opinions of their political opposites (they see them as uninformed, closed-minded, and untruthful). They also tend to discuss politics frequently and to be actively involved in a range of political activities."

Clearly in a time and age where we are more connected than ever, but less agreeable and simply lose the human touch of inter-personal skills of communication. Nevermind the mental impact of the technology we have and the less time we spend actually spending with other people... a link from NPR earlier this year about the rise of depression in young adults.

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LJS9502_basic

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#2 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167869 Posts

Yeah it's not like unemployment causes stress to people at all.

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comp_atkins

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#4 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 36002 Posts

personally i don't feel like politics is affecting my quality of life at all. it's kinda a form of entertainment for me.

regarding the study, it seems like one of those "well, duh" kind of results.

people who are active in politics, unemployed ( stressor right there), are young, quarrelsome, and are easily upset feel negatively about politics.


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DaVillain-

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#5 DaVillain-  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 39137 Posts

Never and whoever becomes President, it won't change my way of thinking and as long as the President doesn't change my paycheck, we can be friends.

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LeicaM6

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#6  Edited By LeicaM6
Member since 2019 • 241 Posts

I’m privileged enough that it doesn’t affect me on an existential level but it does affect me in that the field I work in heavily depends on who is in power.

As for the study, I think it’s a good thing that people feel impacted by politics and political news. That means they are engaged in the process and will then hopefully vote for a government that expresses their own views. Without a politically engaged and civic minded populace democracy doesn’t work.

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Litchie

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#7 Litchie
Member since 2003 • 24698 Posts

Sometimes. But I've found that I'm happier when I ignore politics, so I'm trying to do that as best I can.

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Vaasman

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#8  Edited By Vaasman
Member since 2008 • 14047 Posts

I find it hard not to have it impact my life when I'm living on mediocre pay at a job with dubious security. Sometimes I feel like the instant the economy crashes I'll be the first to get dumped.

Add to that, most of my family has been brainwashed informed by 24/7 Fox news, making it near impossible to have a normal conversation with them that doesn't shift in that direction.

And furthermore, me having national pride and patriotism correlate to what direction our leaders are pushing the country in, and I do not favor the current direction.

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HEATHEN75

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#9 HEATHEN75
Member since 2018 • 914 Posts

Politics is just a game played by the rich and powerful while the rest of us slog through life in the real world. They let us vote in their little game to make us feel like we actually matter, but it's just for show. I gave up on caring anymore and view it as entertainment now. We're electing actors, wrestlers, 80's action stars and reality TV people to office these days. What else could it be but entertainment?

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Horgen

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#10 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121586 Posts

Difficult to really answer. Does it affect my personal life? Yes and no. Politics have never affected me as in causing stress or losing friends.

However politicians tends to change the tax rate somewhat and other things, so the policies they implement do affect my life.

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LJS9502_basic

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#11 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167869 Posts

@heathen75 said:

Politics is just a game played by the rich and powerful while the rest of us slog through life in the real world. They let us vote in their little game to make us feel like we actually matter, but it's just for show. I gave up on caring anymore and view it as entertainment now. We're electing actors, wrestlers, 80's action stars and reality TV people to office these days. What else could it be but entertainment?

That's why we have jokes in office. People don't care. It's not a little game. It matters and most countries let you have a voice. Of course when no cares or does any fact gathering this happens. But honestly this apathy is why we have the problem.

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plageus900

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#12 plageus900
Member since 2013 • 2781 Posts

Impact my life? No. However it does provide me with entertainment. I also use our current political climate to make fun of my braindead, conservative relatives. Maybe it will motivate them to stop being contards and start being productive citizens.

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warmblur

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#13  Edited By warmblur
Member since 2017 • 3436 Posts

Yes, I was hoping NY would legalize Marijuana this year but the cowards are afraid to do it. I can't believe it's 2019 and we still have to go state by state to legalize it what a joke. It's not fair to people who are sick and need it we have to suffer because of political BS.

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LJS9502_basic

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#14 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167869 Posts

@warmblur said:

Yes, I was hoping NY would legalize Marijuana this year but the cowards are afraid to do it. I can't believe it's 2019 and we still have to go state by state to legalize it what a joke. It's not fair to people who are sick and need it we have to suffer because of political BS.

Some talk in PA lately about legalizing recreational. Medical already is.

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jeezers

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#15 jeezers
Member since 2007 • 3547 Posts

It has little impact, I will say socially tho I keep much of my political beliefs to myself now, currently live in a city, in my upper 20s ,more than half of my firends are liberals, I do support trump, but im not about rocking maga hats and shit, not worth the hassle, about a year ago I was at a party/get together, a girl in my circle was going on about concentration camps with children in them. Normally I wouldnt engage but had been drinking some lol I brought up that they were detention centers and were actually built durring obamas administration, the pictures of kids in space blankets on the floor were the previous administration, I brought up that more illegals were deported under obama than any other president and thats how he got the name "deporter in chief".

She had a meltdown... She was screaming and crying, like screaming at lvl 10 "THE CHILDREN THE CHILDREN, THEY ARE CHILDRENNN!!!" she was in tears... This was way overkill but I diddnt yell back or anything, she stormed outside and when she came back inside she apologised for yelling and gave me a hug.

But after that i told myself I'm not bringing up politics unless I know everyone around me can handle it. So i keep it in 1v1 conversations now or smaller groups with the boys.Some people do get very emotionally attached to political issues, its triggering for some.

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jeezers

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#16 jeezers
Member since 2007 • 3547 Posts

@warmblur: agree, recreational should be legalized federally, its overdue. Its one of the things i like about yang, even tho I'm not sold on UBI working

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watercrack445

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#17  Edited By watercrack445
Member since 2017 • 2076 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:
@warmblur said:

Yes, I was hoping NY would legalize Marijuana this year but the cowards are afraid to do it. I can't believe it's 2019 and we still have to go state by state to legalize it what a joke. It's not fair to people who are sick and need it we have to suffer because of political BS.

Some talk in PA lately about legalizing recreational. Medical already is.

Its legalized in my state, Illinois. The funny thing is the new governor won't decrease taxes but happy with legalized marijuana that helps pay the state. They are probably raking in billions of dollars and nothing about decreasing taxes. Remember, Illinois is most corrupted state so I don't even think billions of dollars aren't even going into the local economy.

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#18  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14642 Posts

Trump has emboldened my father and has made him actually come out to me and say, verbatim, "Yes, (my name), I am a racist".

Trump has made us the laughing stock of the world acting like a child and throwing tantrums a 12 year old would be proud of.

Trump has demonized entire subsets of people, increasing prejudices against them, to be excused and validated under the umbrella of "policy" by those who lack the moral courage and integrity to stand up for what is right instead of what they desire and benefits them.

I could go on and on. There is every reason to be depressed with Trump in charge of this country. He has been a mirror and shameless encouragement to everything this country should strive no to be.

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rmiller365

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#19 rmiller365
Member since 2010 • 800 Posts

Yes.. yes it has on multiple fronts.

Even ignoring the fact that America's medical cost are a massive joke, paying premiums that go up every single year while I'm forced to use doctors that are only in a specific "network". Ignoring the fact that deductibles are outrageous, and I still with coverage, have to pay out of pocket for meds that my insurance won't cover..

Here's a more esoteric impact:

I work in project management for construction. Trump's trade war has increased the cost of all my materials that are made with any metal going to job sites. That cost doesn't factor into contracts because contracts can be years old. Buildings are planned out years ahead of time before all this crap hit the fan.

That eats profit margins of my jobs which impacts my salary. We make less money- I make less money. People saying "well buy American first" dont understand anything about how businesses work. The company's NEVER absorb the cost, they simply roll the cost down hill to the bottom, IE the American worker. The people actually DOING the work and getting the job done eat the cost, not the company.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#20 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45435 Posts

@jeezers: You definitely have to be cognizant of those who partake in their own perceived "righteous anger" towards opinions that do not reflect their own.

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jeezers

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#21 jeezers
Member since 2007 • 3547 Posts

@Stevo_the_gamer: yeah ive learned... lol

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mrbojangles25

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#22 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44843 Posts

Yes and no. I mean I read what's going on and how, as mentioned by others, people like to identify themselves by their political beliefs a bit too much, and that's kind of sad.

But I don't lose sleep over politics. I don't stress over them, think about them all the time. I usually read up on something, think "Well that's shitty" or "Where my country gone?", and then I move on.

There's a lot of stuff that I hate in politics right now and frankly, as far as the people go, we need a blank slate. Kick them all out of office and start over.

As a moderate, I am never really happy with the outcomes because they're either so so far to the right or left, that the logical/reasonable approach is never really taken.

Honestly, I am more just shocked or surprised (unpleasantly, of course) by politics these days. It's rarely that I get sad, it's just the shit that's going on is just so out of this world and to the extreme. I mean, Trump is president. Think about that for a second. Love him or hate him, that's a pretty crazy thing to have happened.

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Serraph105

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#23 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34196 Posts
@mrbojangles25 said:

Yes and no. I mean I read what's going on and how, as mentioned by others, people like to identify themselves by their political beliefs a bit too much, and that's kind of sad.

But I don't lose sleep over politics. I don't stress over them, think about them all the time. I usually read up on something, think "Well that's shitty" or "Where my country gone?", and then I move on.

There's a lot of stuff that I hate in politics right now and frankly, as far as the people go, we need a blank slate. Kick them all out of office and start over.

As a moderate, I am never really happy with the outcomes because they're either so so far to the right or left, that the logical/reasonable approach is never really taken.

Honestly, I am more just shocked or surprised (unpleasantly, of course) by politics these days. It's rarely that I get sad, it's just the shit that's going on is just so out of this world and to the extreme. I mean, Trump is president. Think about that for a second. Love him or hate him, that's a pretty crazy thing to have happened.

I feel really burned by supporting the moderate, incremental, moves made by Obama. They haven't all been erased, but many of the baby steps he took have been made into......I can't think of a good term for something smaller than baby steps, but you get the point. Larger steps need to be taken while you have power so when the backlash comes, which is inevitable, it can't be so completely undone by the next group of people in charge.

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#24 thehig1
Member since 2014 • 7372 Posts

I'll likely loose my job if the UK leaves the EU with No deal so its about too.

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#25 LeicaM6
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@mrbojangles25 said:

Yes and no. I mean I read what's going on and how, as mentioned by others, people like to identify themselves by their political beliefs a bit too much, and that's kind of sad.

But I don't lose sleep over politics. I don't stress over them, think about them all the time. I usually read up on something, think "Well that's shitty" or "Where my country gone?", and then I move on.

There's a lot of stuff that I hate in politics right now and frankly, as far as the people go, we need a blank slate. Kick them all out of office and start over.

As a moderate, I am never really happy with the outcomes because they're either so so far to the right or left, that the logical/reasonable approach is never really taken.

Honestly, I am more just shocked or surprised (unpleasantly, of course) by politics these days. It's rarely that I get sad, it's just the shit that's going on is just so out of this world and to the extreme. I mean, Trump is president. Think about that for a second. Love him or hate him, that's a pretty crazy thing to have happened.

To be a ”moderate” is an inherently reactionary position and one which implies you have no actual convictions of your own. What does it mean to be a moderate when one side is praising Nazis and 1920’s trade policies and the other side wants free university tuition and free healthcare? What’s the “moderate” view of these two? Explain it for me please, because I don’t understand how someone can be a moderate when the two parties are more extreme and divergent than they’ve ever been.

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LJS9502_basic

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#26 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167869 Posts

@leicam6 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

Yes and no. I mean I read what's going on and how, as mentioned by others, people like to identify themselves by their political beliefs a bit too much, and that's kind of sad.

But I don't lose sleep over politics. I don't stress over them, think about them all the time. I usually read up on something, think "Well that's shitty" or "Where my country gone?", and then I move on.

There's a lot of stuff that I hate in politics right now and frankly, as far as the people go, we need a blank slate. Kick them all out of office and start over.

As a moderate, I am never really happy with the outcomes because they're either so so far to the right or left, that the logical/reasonable approach is never really taken.

Honestly, I am more just shocked or surprised (unpleasantly, of course) by politics these days. It's rarely that I get sad, it's just the shit that's going on is just so out of this world and to the extreme. I mean, Trump is president. Think about that for a second. Love him or hate him, that's a pretty crazy thing to have happened.

To be a ”moderate” is an inherently reactionary position and one which implies you have no actual convictions of your own. What does it mean to be a moderate when one side is praising Nazis and 1920’s trade policies and the other side wants free university tuition and free healthcare? What’s the “moderate” view of these two? Explain it for me please, because I don’t understand how someone can be a moderate when the two parties are more extreme and divergent than they’ve ever been.

There exists moderate Democrats and why is the US the only major country where healthcare is a business?

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LeicaM6

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#27 LeicaM6
Member since 2019 • 241 Posts

@LJS9502_basic: He didn’t specify if he was a moderate Democrat or a moderate Republican.

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Serraph105

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#28 Serraph105
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@leicam6: For me, the answer to your question seems to be that Healthcare and education should be affordable, but not necessarily free. Nazis ideology is bad and going to remain bad, but for the other stuff you mentioned I believe that what we have had in the past (a few decades ago) is that if you work hard you can get ahead and move up the financial ladder. We've always had issues with affordable Healthcare (hence the need for Medicare and medicaid), but housing and education use to be far more affordable and if we could get back to that without simply making things free then that would be a moderate position. There's a whole lot of discussion there as this has generally been true for only certain segments of society, mostly white middle class people, which imo means it was never really true for the country at large

Now whether that is even doable in this era without some extreme measures (even strictly for the white middle class) is up for debate and something I'm really unsure of, but nevertheless, that would be the "moderate" position.

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LJS9502_basic

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#29 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167869 Posts

@leicam6 said:

@LJS9502_basic: He didn’t specify if he was a moderate Democrat or a moderate Republican.

I was replying to your comment. Not his.

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LJS9502_basic

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#30  Edited By LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 167869 Posts
@Serraph105 said:

@leicam6: For me, the answer to your question seems to be that Healthcare and education should be affordable, but not necessarily free. Nazis ideology is bad and going to remain bad, but for the other stuff you mentioned I believe that what we have had in the past (a few decades ago) is that if you work hard you can get ahead and move up the financial ladder. We've always had issues with affordable Healthcare (hence the need for Medicare and medicaid), but housing and education use to be far more affordable and if we could get back to that without simply making things free then that would be a moderate position. There's a whole lot of discussion there as this has generally been true for only certain segments of society, mostly white middle class people, which imo means it was never really true for the country at large

Now whether that is even doable in this era without some extreme measures (even strictly for the white middle class) is up for debate and something I'm really unsure of, but nevertheless, that would be the "moderate" position.

Middle class white people struggle with healthcare and education as well. The middle class does not have the buying power they did in the past.

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#31  Edited By Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34196 Posts

@LJS9502_basic: Oh I'm very aware of that. I just think that that's financial status most moderates, knowingly or unknowingly, want to get back to, higher buying power for the middle class which coincidentally means mostly white people.

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#32 Drunk_PI
Member since 2014 • 2885 Posts

Politics always has an impact because any political decision, or lack thereof, can carry a significant impact. To say otherwise or even suggest it's all a joke, is ignorant.

I can see why younger and even older generations are feeling the burden though. Rising costs, declining benefits, stagnating wages, a bipolar economy, and an outdated political system that benefits minority over the wide-majority. It can go even further on what issues everyone faces, depending on class, race, gender, age, occupation, and so on. Even on the local and state level, and even on mundane things.

To say otherwise, is downright ignorant and why I despise political apathy in this country.

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Xabiss

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#33 Xabiss
Member since 2012 • 2965 Posts

I just find it laughable when people say Trump has caused them PTSD. ROFLMAO!

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#34 joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2871 Posts

Seeing as I pay more in taxes under Trump, yes. Republican politics negatively affects everyone, with the exception of the wealthy.

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mrbojangles25

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#35 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44843 Posts

@leicam6 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

...

To be a ”moderate” is an inherently reactionary position and one which implies you have no actual convictions of your own.

That is completely untrue. Being a moderate is to have common-sense convictions. To believe in progress, but not at the expense of reason and logic. To believe in not regressing to traditional and outdated values, but to still remember one's history.

@leicam6 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

...

What does it mean to be a moderate when one side is praising Nazis and 1920’s trade policies and the other side wants free university tuition and free healthcare? What’s the “moderate” view of these two?

What are moderate views?

That college shouldn't be free, but you shouldn't be in debt for 30 years, either.

I believe that hospitals, doctors, nurses, and equipment all cost money, but at the same time a broken bone should not cost the uninsured so much that they have to decide between buying pain meds or buying groceries.

I believe in regulated capitalism and the opportunities it provides, but I also believe in tempering capitalism with socialist programs because not everyone is afforded those opportunities.

"Moderate" is recognizing that believing Trump is a traitorous scumbag isn't a liberal ideal (it's just common sense and reason), but that doesn't mean Biden, Pelosi, or Sanders is automatically the better choice simply because they are the opposite.

My beliefs, views, and convictions are as strong as anyone's.

@leicam6 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

...

I don’t understand how someone can be a moderate when the two parties are more extreme and divergent than they’ve ever been.

That is exactly why I am a moderate. So are most Americans, they are just forced to choose sides.

I think the problem you have @leicam6 is that you have grown so accustomed to a society obsessed with side-choosing--that is, you need to pick one extreme or another--that you forgot you have other choices. You don't have to choose either extreme. Having moderate views is not apathetic, passivist, or anything like that.

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mrbojangles25

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#36  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44843 Posts
@leicam6 said:

@LJS9502_basic: He didn’t specify if he was a moderate Democrat or a moderate Republican.

Moderate independent :D

@Serraph105 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

As a moderate, I am never really happy with the outcomes because they're either so so far to the right or left, that the logical/reasonable approach is never really taken.

I feel really burned by supporting the moderate, incremental, moves made by Obama. They haven't all been erased, but many of the baby steps he took have been made into......I can't think of a good term for something smaller than baby steps, but you get the point. Larger steps need to be taken while you have power so when the backlash comes, which is inevitable, it can't be so completely undone by the next group of people in charge.

Right, and that's why diplomacy needs to make a come back.

That's why compromise needs to be thought of as a good thing, not as "giving up".

It's why any politician that was active during the Cold War needs to step down. They are so used to simply fighting someone that they have forgotten how to simply work together with their peers.

I am a firm believer that anything meaningful takes time and we really need to look further than four years. Obama's programs would have worked if people were willing to see them through, but it was party before country so that shit got knocked down.

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#37 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19322 Posts

The only way politics can have an impact on my life is in regards to money and laws that will directly impact how I can live.

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#38 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
Member since 2004 • 45435 Posts

@mrbojangles25: Very well articulated and well said. I agree on many accounts.

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sonicare

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#39 sonicare
Member since 2004 • 57013 Posts

I dont stress politics at all. I feel its best to go both ways.

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Maroxad

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#40  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 15315 Posts

@leicam6 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

Yes and no. I mean I read what's going on and how, as mentioned by others, people like to identify themselves by their political beliefs a bit too much, and that's kind of sad.

But I don't lose sleep over politics. I don't stress over them, think about them all the time. I usually read up on something, think "Well that's shitty" or "Where my country gone?", and then I move on.

There's a lot of stuff that I hate in politics right now and frankly, as far as the people go, we need a blank slate. Kick them all out of office and start over.

As a moderate, I am never really happy with the outcomes because they're either so so far to the right or left, that the logical/reasonable approach is never really taken.

Honestly, I am more just shocked or surprised (unpleasantly, of course) by politics these days. It's rarely that I get sad, it's just the shit that's going on is just so out of this world and to the extreme. I mean, Trump is president. Think about that for a second. Love him or hate him, that's a pretty crazy thing to have happened.

To be a ”moderate” is an inherently reactionary position and one which implies you have no actual convictions of your own. What does it mean to be a moderate when one side is praising Nazis and 1920’s trade policies and the other side wants free university tuition and free healthcare? What’s the “moderate” view of these two? Explain it for me please, because I don’t understand how someone can be a moderate when the two parties are more extreme and divergent than they’ve ever been.

That is nonsense. A moderate can have strong convictions. You don't need polarized dogma or tribalism to have convictions.

I agree with Greta Thunberg in just how important it is to protect our environment (This would put me in line with the green party). But I also believe the best way to do so right now is via nuclear, especially thorium power, and letting the capitalist free market develop innovative solutions to make renewables, especially solar power more attractive (a stance that some greens may not be too happy with). I believe this not because of some desire to appear moderate, but because of how successful the track record of this policy has been thus far.

As for your question, a well regulated capitalistic market is ideal. Here in Sweden we technically don't have FREE healthcare, go to the doctor and you still pay around 300ish, Swedish krona. But it is heavily subsidized by the money we pay in taxes. So it is still extremely affordable. This is a very reasonable middle ground between 1920's capitalism, vs Bernie's healthcare plan that will never pass through congress. Bernie's policy would never fly through congress, but a more incremental step could.

As far as I am concerned,

If you go too far left, you will often find yourself backing untested positions unsupported by any rational evidence.

If you go too far right, you will often delude yourself into pursuing a romanticized past that never happened.

Why pick a poison?

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LeicaM6

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#41 LeicaM6
Member since 2019 • 241 Posts
@Maroxad said:

That is nonsense. A moderate can have strong convictions. You don't need polarized dogma or tribalism to have convictions.

I agree with Greta Thunberg in just how important it is to protect our environment (This would put me in line with the green party). But I also believe the best way to do so right now is via nuclear, especially thorium power, and letting the capitalist free market develop innovative solutions to make renewables, especially solar power more attractive (a stance that some greens may not be too happy with). I believe this not because of some desire to appear moderate, but because of how successful the track record of this policy has been thus far.

As for your question, a well regulated capitalistic market is ideal. Here in Sweden we technically don't have FREE healthcare, go to the doctor and you still pay around 300ish, Swedish krona. But it is heavily subsidized by the money we pay in taxes. So it is still extremely affordable. This is a very reasonable middle ground between 1920's capitalism, vs Bernie's healthcare plan that will never pass through congress. Bernie's policy would never fly through congress, but a more incremental step could.

As far as I am concerned,

If you go too far left, you will often find yourself backing untested positions unsupported by any rational evidence.

If you go too far right, you will often delude yourself into pursuing a romanticized past that never happened.

Why pick a poison?

There's absolutely nothing moderate about the position you purport to hold. In fact, from my experience, the ones who tout themselves as "moderate" or "nonpartisan" for example, are the most affected by ideology. Only difference between you and I is that you have essentially had the wool thrown over their eyes so badly you don't see your own ideology. For example, expecting capitalism to fix the exact problem that capitalism caused, the problem being climate change, is proof that you are indoctrinated by capitalist dogma. That's not a moderate position, in fact it's a position deeply rooted in ideology going all the way back to the 1970's and 80's onward of Milton Friedman, Thatcher, Reagan, etc. Said individuals are proponents of a very specific strain of economic liberalism.

That you fail to see that the failures of capitalism have caused the present climate situation shows how indoctrinated you are by that view. There's nothing moderate about that, and it's something you need to think critically about. Political views anyway are more than just "left or right".

Also, you did not define what you meant the capitalist free market system is "successful" for in terms of climate change policy. Successful for producers or consumers? Shareholders and CEOS? If you mean successful for the environment then I shudder to think what you would consider unsuccessful. Are you not aware that the world is warming at an alarming rate and that we are essentially past the point of no return already? Highly developed, capitalist countries, mostly in the west, are failing their already pathetically low Paris climate accords goal en masse. So, where is the success? It literally couldn't be more apparent that the status quo, of which you are staunchly towards, has failed us.

People all over the globe are already seeing the results of climate change. They can't wait for solutions to be economically viable for the market. To advocate such things reeks of privilege that you as an individual in the global north is able to have, while populations in the global south aren't able to sit and twiddle their thumbs until the magic invisible hand of the free market comes to their rescue.

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#42  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 15315 Posts

@leicam6 said:
@Maroxad said:

That is nonsense. A moderate can have strong convictions. You don't need polarized dogma or tribalism to have convictions.

I agree with Greta Thunberg in just how important it is to protect our environment (This would put me in line with the green party). But I also believe the best way to do so right now is via nuclear, especially thorium power, and letting the capitalist free market develop innovative solutions to make renewables, especially solar power more attractive (a stance that some greens may not be too happy with). I believe this not because of some desire to appear moderate, but because of how successful the track record of this policy has been thus far.

As for your question, a well regulated capitalistic market is ideal. Here in Sweden we technically don't have FREE healthcare, go to the doctor and you still pay around 300ish, Swedish krona. But it is heavily subsidized by the money we pay in taxes. So it is still extremely affordable. This is a very reasonable middle ground between 1920's capitalism, vs Bernie's healthcare plan that will never pass through congress. Bernie's policy would never fly through congress, but a more incremental step could.

As far as I am concerned,

If you go too far left, you will often find yourself backing untested positions unsupported by any rational evidence.

If you go too far right, you will often delude yourself into pursuing a romanticized past that never happened.

Why pick a poison?

There's absolutely nothing moderate about the position you purport to hold. In fact, from my experience, the ones who tout themselves as "moderate" or "nonpartisan" for example, are the most affected by ideology. Only difference between you and I is that you have essentially had the wool thrown over their eyes so badly you don't see your own ideology. For example, expecting capitalism to fix the exact problem that capitalism caused, the problem being climate change, is proof that you are indoctrinated by capitalist dogma. That's not a moderate position, in fact it's a position deeply rooted in ideology going all the way back to the 1970's and 80's onward of Milton Friedman, Thatcher, Reagan, etc. Said individuals are proponents of a very specific strain of economic liberalism.

That you fail to see that the failures of capitalism have caused the present climate situation shows how indoctrinated you are by that view. There's nothing moderate about that, and it's something you need to think critically about. Political views anyway are more than just "left or right".

Also, you did not define what you meant the capitalist free market system is "successful" for in terms of climate change policy. Successful for producers or consumers? Shareholders and CEOS? If you mean successful for the environment then I shudder to think what you would consider unsuccessful. Are you not aware that the world is warming at an alarming rate and that we are essentially past the point of no return already? Highly developed, capitalist countries, mostly in the west, are failing their already pathetically low Paris climate accords goal en masse. So, where is the success? It literally couldn't be more apparent that the status quo, of which you are staunchly towards, has failed us.

People all over the globe are already seeing the results of climate change. They can't wait for solutions to be economically viable for the market. To advocate such things reeks of privilege that you as an individual in the global north is able to have, while populations in the global south aren't able to sit and twiddle their thumbs until the magic invisible hand of the free market comes to their rescue.

You are not wrong in the fact that capitalism (and a consumptionalist culture) caused a lot of the environmental problems we face today. Including Climate Change and Plastics screwing us over.

That said, I am well aware of what ideology I follow, I follow Liberalism, which on a political compass would be the center left. That means, I am in favor of a well regulated capitalistic markets, as well as social justice and personal freedom.

Using capitalism to solve an issue capitalism caused may sound crazy. But a well regulated capitalistic market seems to be the solution. By that I mean, I favor an economy that emphasizes freedoms as long as you do not infringe on the rights and freedoms of others. And as far as I am concerned, those rights include the right to drink fresh water and healthy air. Capitalism is a tool, not an ideal to pursue. And a strong healthy economy, often has aspects of both socialistic and capitalistic ideas.

By success stories I mean of enterprisers in china becoming extremely successful, australia's story (their solution was rooted in capitalistic theory, and executed by more socialist practices).

My environmental policy could be summed up like this,

  • Instate heavy carbon taxes.
  • Those following the Cap and Trade model
  • Use the revenue from carbon taxes to provide incentive programs, as well as plant trees and other environmental policies
  • End all ranching subsidies. In an attempt to raise the price of meat. Not only does the meat industry contribute heavily to pollution, but humans are eating WAAAY too much meat. Far more than what is healthy.
  • Foster a less technophobic culture, to make people more open to vatgrown meat.
  • End all oil fossil fuel subsidies. Increase subsidies in the renewable energy sector. To further incentivize people looking into this sector.
  • Consider tax credits for renewable energy, to encourage more individuals to use renewables. Leading to increased demand.

Like I said, you are not wrong in that capitalism caused a lot of these problems in the first place, but at the same time, Capitalism excels at one thing, and that is innovation. And if there is one thing we need to get us out of this mess, it is innovation.

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#43 LeicaM6
Member since 2019 • 241 Posts

@Maroxad: I don’t share your views on the abilities of capitalism to be a public good in the fight against climate change. It being good for the climate may only a side effect, due to green technology and policies being good for the bottom line of corporations. Perhaps it can help in the long run but the only way to actually fight climate change is drastic government policy and central planning from all levels of government, which a lot of the policies you listed are government-led and that I agree with, not market-led policies.

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#44  Edited By Seiki_sands
Member since 2003 • 1949 Posts

The debate for governance? It is one of the great human subjects, along with law, love, the arts, and belief. It gives authority to the affairs of our culture.

The end of net neutrality will effect some users experience with this site in a positive way, and others in a negative way. The site may survive, it may thrive, or it may fold as a result of the decision we have reached to allow ISPs to throttle web traffic. The boundaries have been set. They may prove too noxious. We may change our minds.

In early industrial Manchester, U.K. life expectancy was in the 30's, and significantly lower for factory workers. Children born in the city were far more likely to die, with 57% not reaching the age of 5 in the year 1840, compared with 32% in rural, less polluted areas. Compromises (AKA Politics) held off revolutions in some countries and failed to stem that tide in other countries in response to the unlivable, monstrous beginnings of modern life. Regardless of the form of governments that emerged, it put no end to politics, politics is not the purview of democracies. Government derives from the governed whether they are slave or free, and the debate rages on. The quality of the air you are breathing is in part the result of politics.

This year your state's funds devoted to road repair by localities have been diverted to tax cuts. The broken axle from the pothole you failed to avoid in the resulting minefield is politics. The tendon damage you sustained in the accident, and the time you need to recover may cause you to lose or job or not, depending on politics. The insurance your employer offers because as a company of a certain size it is mandated to provide it, probably covers you thanks to politics.

This year World War III did not occur thanks to politics, may we be so lucky next year and for many to come.

Like the other great human subjects, even those ignorant of it participate in it, shape it and are shaped by it. It is impossible to estimate the thousands of ways in which politics are affecting me. Hundreds of products and services I use are covered by thousands of regulations, most wise and some misguided. Changes to hundreds of laws each year have repeatedly criminalized behaviors, no doubt making me a criminal unbeknownst to myself, but also and more commonly protecting me from potential predation by those wishing to exploit me, while unfortunately other changes are clearing a path through regulations for the express purpose of exploiting me.

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#45  Edited By Sancho_Panzer
Member since 2015 • 919 Posts

Negatively? No. Our UK politicians still have no spine and the press is overwhelmingly condescending and awful but I thank God every day that the Blair era is, it appears, finally truly over. Honestly, I'll take complicity in this mess over the blissful blindfolded march of ignorance that got us here any day of the week.