America's richest 400 families now pay a lower tax rate than the middle class

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mattbbpl

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#1 mattbbpl
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The U.S. tax system is supposed to be progressive, meaning that wealthier households pay a larger share of their income to the taxman than the middle class and the poor. Yet after the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, that's no longer the case: For the first time in a century, America's 400 richest families now pay lower taxes than people in the middle class.

That's according to an analysis of tax data by two prominent economists, Emmanuel Saez and Gabriel Zucman of the University of California at Berkeley, that is a centerpiece of their new book, "The Triumph of Injustice," to be published on October 15. Saez and Zucman, who have worked with the noted French economist Thomas Piketty to produce seminal research on inequality, also advised Senator Elizabeth Warren on the Democratic presidential candidate's plan to impose a wealth tax on ultra-rich families.

The tipping point came last year when the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, which was signed into law by President Donald Trump at the end of 2017, took effect. While Mr. Trump vowed that middle-class families would be helped by the tax overhaul, experts say most working-class families saw only a minimal benefit, while the wealthiest citizens got the lion's share of breaks. In fact, Saez and Zucman argue, the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act turned the tax system on its head.

"In 2018, for the first time in the last hundred years, the top 400 richest Americans have paid lower tax rates than the working class," they write. "This looks like the tax system of a plutocracy."

...

Although advocates of low taxes argue that slashing rates on the rich and corporations boosts economic growth, there's little evidence for that. Instead, the U.S. is facing a number of risks by shifting to a more regressive tax system, the authors say.

For one, the federal government is losing out on a massive amount of tax revenue by slashing levies on the rich. Secondly, that lost revenue must be found elsewhere, which means the middle class and poor are likely to be stuck footing the bill.

But the most important reason, according to Zucman and Saez, is that the U.S. tax system is creating what they call an "inequality spiral." In other words, the rich are getting richer — that allows them to shape public policies to extract further tax breaks and other benefits, boosting their wealth and political clout.

Link

We've touched on this briefly in another thread on another topic which is now locked, and I thought this topic warranted it's own discussion. Do you support this effect of the tax cuts passed earlier in this administration? If not, do you still support the tax cuts overall? Or perhaps you'd like to see this trend amplified due to some perceived benefit from it?

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LJS9502_basic

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#2 LJS9502_basic  Online
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I don't support it now and I didn't support it then. Just disgusting how the US is turning into an oligarchy and the middle class republican voters are cheering it on.

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mrbojangles25

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#3  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 44564 Posts

Wish I could say I am surprised.

I mean honestly we have it backwards. Literally. The poorest should pay less and the richest the most.

"oh but that's not fair"

How is it not? The rich have benefited from the rules and laws of society, and are therefore the most in debt to it. The poorest have not, and therefore don't really owe anything back to society.

@LJS9502_basic said:

I don't support it now and I didn't support it then. Just disgusting how the US is turning into an oligarchy and the middle class republican voters are cheering it on.

It'd be one thing if they weaseled their way out of some taxes, but to get away with what is essentially robbery is pretty insane.

Need to close the loopholes, and make some sort of minimum (for every tax bracket) you can get away with as far as deductions, write-offs, and so on.

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comp_atkins

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#4 comp_atkins
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i know how to fix this.

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Serraph105

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#5 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34113 Posts

I'd be interested in seeing people defend this development. Especially when you consider that Republicans want taxes lowered even further for the rich and would make continued cuts to social safety net programs to do so.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#6 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11000 Posts

I'm sure they're creating a f*ck ton of jobs with that extra cash. Like seriously, so many jobs. Mostly manufacturing jobs too.

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Sancho_Panzer

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#7  Edited By Sancho_Panzer
Member since 2015 • 884 Posts

*edit* Ignore me, I didn't read the article properly - looked up the figures before reading the part about tax breaks being the problem.

Wow, that's crazy.

Is it that they pay a lower rate of tax, though, or that they're better at avoiding paying taxes? These are the 2018 income tax figures I'm seeing:

I only ask because I'm just wondering, if the richest 400 are so good at avoiding taxes, is raising taxes going to do much to fix the problem?

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comp_atkins

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#8 comp_atkins
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@sancho_panzer said:

*edit* Ignore me, I didn't read the article properly - looked up the figures before reading the part about tax breaks being the problem.

Wow, that's crazy.

Is it that they pay a lower rate of tax, though, or that they're better at avoiding paying taxes? These are the 2018 income tax figures I'm seeing:

I only ask because I'm just wondering, if the richest 400 are so good at avoiding taxes, is raising taxes going to do much to fix the problem?

it's also about how income is classified. if you're middle class working an hourly or salaried job, that income is taxed at the federal income tax rates you listed.

if you're wealthy and are collecting income from dividends on stock ownership or profits from stock sales, that income is taxed at a significantly lower rate, i think it is 10% for federal and varies by state.

many who have accumulated sufficient wealth can have very low taxes living on dividend payments alone. you'll sometimes see CEOs take $1 salaries. while that seems like a nice gesture, they make up for it with compensation in the form of stock awards which, again, will be taxed much lower when sold.

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VFighter

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#9 VFighter
Member since 2016 • 5348 Posts

@mrbojangles25: Can't say I disagree with this.

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Jacanuk

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#10 Jacanuk
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@mattbbpl: And? If you know your tax-laws you hopefully also pay a lot less than the average middle-class American? so not sure what you want to be upset over here, because blaming it all on Trump is just dumb, it´s like blaming the last car in a harmonica crash.

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LJS9502_basic

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#11 LJS9502_basic  Online
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@Jacanuk said:

@mattbbpl: And? If you know your tax-laws you hopefully also pay a lot less than the average middle-class American? so not sure what you want to be upset over here, because blaming it all on Trump is just dumb, it´s like blaming the last car in a harmonica crash.

Yeah that tax cut he gave them didn't help them at all...………..smh.

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Jacanuk

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#12 Jacanuk
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@LJS9502_basic said:
@Jacanuk said:

@mattbbpl: And? If you know your tax-laws you hopefully also pay a lot less than the average middle-class American? so not sure what you want to be upset over here, because blaming it all on Trump is just dumb, it´s like blaming the last car in a harmonica crash.

Yeah that tax cut he gave them didn't help them at all...………..smh.

Probably not, but you hopefully also benefitted from that? because I sure did.

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mattbbpl

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#13 mattbbpl
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@Jacanuk: The one and only significant legislative accomplishment he has is a large tax cut aimed primarily at the wealthy. The study cites that legislation as a primary contributing factor.

Besides that, isn't this what you wanted from that legislation, Jac? Leading up to it, weren't you arguing that the job creators were drowning in taxes?

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#14 Jacanuk
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@mattbbpl said:

@Jacanuk: The one and only significant legislative accomplishment he has is a large tax cut aimed primarily at the wealthy. The study cites that legislation as a primary contributing factor.

Besides that, isn't this what you wanted from that legislation, Jac? Leading up to it, weren't you arguing that the job creators were drowning in taxes?

Yes, so far that and the 2 supreme court justices is the biggest things. But that debate is for another thread.

Also yes and I am still for a massive cut to the corporate tax, and it will not take just a few days or years to benefit America, the companies are lucky right now all the media focus are on Trump and not on the massive amount of money they leave abroad in tax havens.

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LJS9502_basic

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#15 LJS9502_basic  Online
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@Jacanuk said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@Jacanuk said:

@mattbbpl: And? If you know your tax-laws you hopefully also pay a lot less than the average middle-class American? so not sure what you want to be upset over here, because blaming it all on Trump is just dumb, it´s like blaming the last car in a harmonica crash.

Yeah that tax cut he gave them didn't help them at all...………..smh.

Probably not, but you hopefully also benefitted from that? because I sure did.

You won't benefit when taxes invariably rise as they need to do. Also you probably don't have all the loopholes for the wealthy either. I don't know why average Americans are so happy to see the wealthy avoid paying taxes. It's ridiculous.

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Jacanuk

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#16 Jacanuk
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@LJS9502_basic said:

You won't benefit when taxes invariably rise as they need to do. Also you probably don't have all the loopholes for the wealthy either. I don't know why average Americans are so happy to see the wealthy avoid paying taxes. It's ridiculous.

Of course, a normal American won´t have the millionaires loopholes, but there are plenty and the benefit from it has my wallet happier than under Obama.

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LJS9502_basic

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#17  Edited By LJS9502_basic  Online
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@Jacanuk said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

You won't benefit when taxes invariably rise as they need to do. Also you probably don't have all the loopholes for the wealthy either. I don't know why average Americans are so happy to see the wealthy avoid paying taxes. It's ridiculous.

Of course, a normal American won´t have the millionaires loopholes, but there are plenty and the benefit from it has my wallet happier than under Obama.

Well as the usual progression goes...…..the Republicans screw the country up and the Democrats have to fix it...which means due to the irresponsible trickle down tax ideology they all implement the taxes HAVE to rise. And soon you will be paying more goods thanks to the tariffs so any temporary benefit you currently have will be erased. But hey...…..keep cheering on the wealthy. Oligarchy for life amirite……….

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Jacanuk

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#18 Jacanuk
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@LJS9502_basic said:
@Jacanuk said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

You won't benefit when taxes invariably rise as they need to do. Also you probably don't have all the loopholes for the wealthy either. I don't know why average Americans are so happy to see the wealthy avoid paying taxes. It's ridiculous.

Of course, a normal American won´t have the millionaires loopholes, but there are plenty and the benefit from it has my wallet happier than under Obama.

Well as the usual progression goes...…..the Republicans screw the country up and the Democrats have to fix it...which means due to the irresponsible trickle down tax ideology they all implement the taxes HAVE to rise. And soon you will be paying more goods thanks to the tariffs so any temporary benefit you currently have will be erased. But hey...…..keep cheering on the wealthy. Oligarchy for life amirite……….

That is hilarious

So when did Obama save the country? in fact he made it so bad that someone like Trump could come in and actually secure enough support to win a place in the white house.

Not to mention his foreign policies were horrific and remember it was under him Crimea was "taken" by Russia not under Trump, and it was under Obama for the first time a Russian jet flew so close by an American military ship that they could smell the vodka in the pilot's breath.

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#19 LeicaM6  Online
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This is just capitalism doing what capitalism does. The process of accumulation is one of the most basic tenets of capitalist systems and one way the capitalists do that is by distorting and abusing the tax system by taking advantage of intentional “loopholes” or storing their money overseas.

None of this will change until nations start sanctioning off-shore tax havens which make it stupidly easy for the wealthy to stash their money overseas. Raising the tax rate will do nothing because the rich aren’t even paying the pittance they own now.

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hrt_rulz01

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#20 hrt_rulz01
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I guess that's what happens when billionaires control the government & the media... it's happening here in Aus too.

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#21 LeicaM6  Online
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This is just capitalism doing what capitalism does. The process of accumulation is one of the most basic tenets of capitalist systems and one way the capitalists do that is by distorting and abusing the tax system by taking advantage of intentional “loopholes” or storing their money overseas.

None of this will change until nations start sanctioning off-shore tax havens which make it stupidly easy for the wealthy to stash their money overseas. Raising the tax rate will do nothing because the rich aren’t even paying the pittance they own now.

I’m glad that this piece mentions that supply-side economics and that low tax rates spur spending and innovation is pure myth that has never been true. What is true however, is that when corporations or “job creators”, receive a tax cut they pocket it and leave it sitting in their bank accounts. It a grotesque system yet some of the poorest, most down-trodden voters still decide to vote on such policies that have no basis in reality. Ask Kansas how it’s doing.

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LJS9502_basic

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#22  Edited By LJS9502_basic  Online
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@Jacanuk said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Well as the usual progression goes...…..the Republicans screw the country up and the Democrats have to fix it...which means due to the irresponsible trickle down tax ideology they all implement the taxes HAVE to rise. And soon you will be paying more goods thanks to the tariffs so any temporary benefit you currently have will be erased. But hey...…..keep cheering on the wealthy. Oligarchy for life amirite……….

That is hilarious

So when did Obama save the country? in fact he made it so bad that someone like Trump could come in and actually secure enough support to win a place in the white house.

Not to mention his foreign policies were horrific and remember it was under him Crimea was "taken" by Russia not under Trump, and it was under Obama for the first time a Russian jet flew so close by an American military ship that they could smell the vodka in the pilot's breath.

trump appealed to those that hated seeing a black man president. He also inherited the fruits of Obama's labor. The job increases for instance. They have since slowed under trump.

The economy rebounded from GWB recession. See this is some of the incorrect ideas you have that helped trump get elected by the Russian interference we talked about. You patently get your facts from the wrong places.

There's a reason Putin wanted trump.

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Jacanuk

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#23 Jacanuk
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@LJS9502_basic said:
@Jacanuk said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Well as the usual progression goes...…..the Republicans screw the country up and the Democrats have to fix it...which means due to the irresponsible trickle down tax ideology they all implement the taxes HAVE to rise. And soon you will be paying more goods thanks to the tariffs so any temporary benefit you currently have will be erased. But hey...…..keep cheering on the wealthy. Oligarchy for life amirite……….

That is hilarious

So when did Obama save the country? in fact he made it so bad that someone like Trump could come in and actually secure enough support to win a place in the white house.

Not to mention his foreign policies were horrific and remember it was under him Crimea was "taken" by Russia not under Trump, and it was under Obama for the first time a Russian jet flew so close by an American military ship that they could smell the vodka in the pilot's breath.

trump appealed to those that hated seeing a black man president. He also inherited the fruits of Obama's labor. The job increases for instance. They have since slowed under trump.

The economy rebounded from GWB recession. See this is some of the incorrect ideas you have that helped trump get elected by the Russian interference we talked about. You patently get your facts from the wrong places.

There's a reason Putin wanted trump.

It´s hilarious that you keep up the "russian" thing

Anyways you and your cohorts on the left all yelled that if Trump was elected it would be the end of the world, but so far it´s been great.

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LJS9502_basic

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#24 LJS9502_basic  Online
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@Jacanuk said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@Jacanuk said:
@LJS9502_basic said:

Well as the usual progression goes...…..the Republicans screw the country up and the Democrats have to fix it...which means due to the irresponsible trickle down tax ideology they all implement the taxes HAVE to rise. And soon you will be paying more goods thanks to the tariffs so any temporary benefit you currently have will be erased. But hey...…..keep cheering on the wealthy. Oligarchy for life amirite……….

That is hilarious

So when did Obama save the country? in fact he made it so bad that someone like Trump could come in and actually secure enough support to win a place in the white house.

Not to mention his foreign policies were horrific and remember it was under him Crimea was "taken" by Russia not under Trump, and it was under Obama for the first time a Russian jet flew so close by an American military ship that they could smell the vodka in the pilot's breath.

trump appealed to those that hated seeing a black man president. He also inherited the fruits of Obama's labor. The job increases for instance. They have since slowed under trump.

The economy rebounded from GWB recession. See this is some of the incorrect ideas you have that helped trump get elected by the Russian interference we talked about. You patently get your facts from the wrong places.

There's a reason Putin wanted trump.

It´s hilarious that you keep up the "russian" thing

Anyways you and your cohorts on the left all yelled that if Trump was elected it would be the end of the world, but so far it´s been great.

Yeah the economy is slowing, the deficit is growing, jobs growth is slowing, tariffs are causing increased cost, allies are being trashed, hate and division is growing, he's committed crimes against the constitution...…...yeah it's been real great......

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Horgen

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#25 Horgen  Moderator
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Imagine just how much the deficit will grow if there is a recession with Trump in office.

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LJS9502_basic

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#26 LJS9502_basic  Online
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@LJS9502_basic said:
@Jacanuk said:

It´s hilarious that you keep up the "russian" thing

Anyways you and your cohorts on the left all yelled that if Trump was elected it would be the end of the world, but so far it´s been great.

Yeah the economy is slowing, the deficit is growing, jobs growth is slowing, tariffs are causing increased cost, allies are being trashed, hate and division is growing, he's committed crimes against the constitution...…...yeah it's been real great......

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Jacanuk

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#27 Jacanuk
Member since 2011 • 19038 Posts
@LJS9502_basic said:
@Jacanuk said:

It´s hilarious that you keep up the "russian" thing

Anyways you and your cohorts on the left all yelled that if Trump was elected it would be the end of the world, but so far it´s been great.

Yeah the economy is slowing, the deficit is growing, jobs growth is slowing, tariffs are causing increased cost, allies are being trashed, hate and division is growing, he's committed crimes against the constitution...…...yeah it's been real great......

Sure it is.

And the deficit is all Trump´s fault right?

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comp_atkins

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#28 comp_atkins
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@leicam6 said:

This is just capitalism doing what capitalism does. The process of accumulation is one of the most basic tenets of capitalist systems and one way the capitalists do that is by distorting and abusing the tax system by taking advantage of intentional “loopholes” or storing their money overseas.

None of this will change until nations start sanctioning off-shore tax havens which make it stupidly easy for the wealthy to stash their money overseas. Raising the tax rate will do nothing because the rich aren’t even paying the pittance they own now.

I’m glad that this piece mentions that supply-side economics and that low tax rates spur spending and innovation is pure myth that has never been true. What is true however, is that when corporations or “job creators”, receive a tax cut they pocket it and leave it sitting in their bank accounts. It a grotesque system yet some of the poorest, most down-trodden voters still decide to vote on such policies that have no basis in reality. Ask Kansas how it’s doing.

temporarily embarrassed millionaire syndrome.

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Horgen

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#29 Horgen  Moderator
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@comp_atkins: Richer people would benefit as well. Not much profit to be earned if the product can’t reach the consumer.

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#30 joebones5000
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@Jacanuk said:
@LJS9502_basic said:
@Jacanuk said:

It´s hilarious that you keep up the "russian" thing

Anyways you and your cohorts on the left all yelled that if Trump was elected it would be the end of the world, but so far it´s been great.

Yeah the economy is slowing, the deficit is growing, jobs growth is slowing, tariffs are causing increased cost, allies are being trashed, hate and division is growing, he's committed crimes against the constitution...…...yeah it's been real great......

Sure it is.

And the deficit is all Trump´s fault right?

$600 billion of it is, though Republicans are to blame as well, and that's just this year. Last year they are responsible for another $300+ billion. Obama left it at $450 billion.

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watercrack445

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#31 watercrack445
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60% tax

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sonicare

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#32 sonicare
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It's somewhat deceiving though. People that earn wages pay more taxes the more they make. However, the rich make the bulk of their money not through wages, but through investments. Capital gains taxes are lower for a variety of reasons. I'd have no problem seeing the wealthy pay a higher amount on those, but as Obama found out, taxing capital gains is far more complex. We want people investing their post tax money in the economy.

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#33 joebones5000
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@sonicare said:

It's somewhat deceiving though. People that earn wages pay more taxes the more they make. However, the rich make the bulk of their money not through wages, but through investments. Capital gains taxes are lower for a variety of reasons. I'd have no problem seeing the wealthy pay a higher amount on those, but as Obama found out, taxing capital gains is far more complex. We want people investing their post tax money in the economy.

It's only more "complex" because Republicans make it so.

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#34 npiet1
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@sonicare said:

It's somewhat deceiving though. People that earn wages pay more taxes the more they make. However, the rich make the bulk of their money not through wages, but through investments. Capital gains taxes are lower for a variety of reasons. I'd have no problem seeing the wealthy pay a higher amount on those, but as Obama found out, taxing capital gains is far more complex. We want people investing their post tax money in the economy.

I was going to ask if there was more to this, cause don't they pay like 50% just at the federal level for wages? They are in a higher tax bracket, so either somethings illegal is going on or there's a lot more to this.

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#35 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35929 Posts
@npiet1 said:
@sonicare said:

It's somewhat deceiving though. People that earn wages pay more taxes the more they make. However, the rich make the bulk of their money not through wages, but through investments. Capital gains taxes are lower for a variety of reasons. I'd have no problem seeing the wealthy pay a higher amount on those, but as Obama found out, taxing capital gains is far more complex. We want people investing their post tax money in the economy.

I was going to ask if there was more to this, cause don't they pay like 50% just at the federal level for wages? They are in a higher tax bracket, so either somethings illegal is going on or there's a lot more to this.

they just make sure most of their income is not in the form of wages to avoid the higher tax on them

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#36 npiet1
Member since 2018 • 2556 Posts

@comp_atkins said:
@npiet1 said:
@sonicare said:

It's somewhat deceiving though. People that earn wages pay more taxes the more they make. However, the rich make the bulk of their money not through wages, but through investments. Capital gains taxes are lower for a variety of reasons. I'd have no problem seeing the wealthy pay a higher amount on those, but as Obama found out, taxing capital gains is far more complex. We want people investing their post tax money in the economy.

I was going to ask if there was more to this, cause don't they pay like 50% just at the federal level for wages? They are in a higher tax bracket, so either somethings illegal is going on or there's a lot more to this.

they just make sure most of their income is not in the form of wages to avoid the higher tax on them

Ah I see they pay 20% from earnings of stocks etc (capital gains), then 37% from wages. 20% is equivalent to the lower middle class, so yeah they could pay more.

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#37 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 35929 Posts
@npiet1 said:
@comp_atkins said:
@npiet1 said:
@sonicare said:

It's somewhat deceiving though. People that earn wages pay more taxes the more they make. However, the rich make the bulk of their money not through wages, but through investments. Capital gains taxes are lower for a variety of reasons. I'd have no problem seeing the wealthy pay a higher amount on those, but as Obama found out, taxing capital gains is far more complex. We want people investing their post tax money in the economy.

I was going to ask if there was more to this, cause don't they pay like 50% just at the federal level for wages? They are in a higher tax bracket, so either somethings illegal is going on or there's a lot more to this.

they just make sure most of their income is not in the form of wages to avoid the higher tax on them

Ah I see they pay 20% from earnings of stocks etc (capital gains), then 37% from wages. 20% is equivalent to the lower middle class, so yeah they could pay more.

yup. nothing illegal. just designed to favor income from investments over income from labor.

which, imo, seems backwards. productive labor is what builds the country. tax labor much less and investment income much more. we seem to have it backwards.

then again, consider the people writing the tax code and who have the power to influence them.

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#38  Edited By LeicaM6  Online
Member since 2019 • 133 Posts

@joebones5000 said:
@sonicare said:

It's somewhat deceiving though. People that earn wages pay more taxes the more they make. However, the rich make the bulk of their money not through wages, but through investments. Capital gains taxes are lower for a variety of reasons. I'd have no problem seeing the wealthy pay a higher amount on those, but as Obama found out, taxing capital gains is far more complex. We want people investing their post tax money in the economy.

It's only more "complex" because Republicans make it so.

See, the problem with such a reply like this is that you are taking a large issue, like the question of taxation, and diluting it down to a simple, brain dead answer that only makes for a good sound bite. The reality is a lot more complex. It’s complex because capitalism and western governments are inherently set up to favour the rich and there are institutions overseas that allow the wealthy to stash their money, no questions asked. Institutions that the Democrats themselves support and take advantage of.

This isn’t even a Democrat or Republican situation, it’s a structural problem that will take a lot more effort to fix than merely voting in a Democratic politician. The Democrats historically since the time of Bill Clinton and then later Obama, are still squarely on the right in terms of economics anyway, openly and wholeheartedly supporting neo-liberal and pro-capitalist ideology with policies like privatization, de-regulation, and further destruction of the welfare state, with their fellow politicians across the aisle. Democrats and Republicans both agree on the need to shelter the rich and protect the status quo how it is now, because they both eat from the same trough.

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#39  Edited By joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2800 Posts

@leicam6: lol. No. It's not a complex issue, and it most certainly is a Republican problem, one that started with Reagan. Tax policy that favors the rich has been their staple for 40+ years. You have Democrats literally calling for tax increase, so, yes, it is that simple.

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#40 LeicaM6  Online
Member since 2019 • 133 Posts

@joebones5000: ... which has been supported by the Democratic establishment since the 70’s. The Democratic Party have conned you into believing they are different on economics and taxes than the Republicans are, which is just plain wrong. Fake leftist icon Barack Obama managed to make the Bush tax cuts permanent and all the “growth” during those years came at the top.

The fact that some Democrats are running on tax increases doesn’t change anything. We will see what happens when they actually begin governing again rather than grandstanding on positions we can’t be sure they’ll even support when they are in control of government.

If you want to ignore decades of bi-partisan support for the low tax, pro-business environment of the US that the Democrats happily supported and believe they’ll suddenly change their tune during the next Democratic administration, feel free to do that. I, however, refuse to fall for hollow campaign promises and lies again after being burned by Barack Obama.

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#41 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17529 Posts

@leicam6: You need to get into the weeds more. You're missing what happens in the fight, how the football is moved, and even misrepresenting the final action on the Bush tax cuts in your effort to paint both parties as the same (which is ludicrous).

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#42  Edited By LeicaM6  Online
Member since 2019 • 133 Posts

@mattbbpl said:

@leicam6: You need to get into the weeds more. You're missing what happens in the fight, how the football is moved, and even misrepresenting the final action on the Bush tax cuts in your effort to paint both parties as the same (which is ludicrous).

I don’t think the weeds are necessarily important here when both parties since the time of Reagan more or less operate under the same neo-liberal economic principles. The fact that Democrats may be considered ”lesser” neo-liberals is grasping at straws trying to find historical differences economically between the two parties. However much that has changed remains to be seen since the left-wing of the Democratic Party hasn’t controled government yet.

Yes, they are different if you want to consider the Democrats to be centre-right and the Republicans far-right, in terms of economics. Both are still awful.

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#43 Mighty-Lu-Bu
Member since 2007 • 2974 Posts

Yeah that article is 100% BS. I guess you guys don't know how the tax bracket system works in America, but the higher your income, you more you pay. In fact, the "evil" *sarcasm* 1% pays most of the taxes. But of course if you get your news from CNN and CBS you would think that rich people don't pay taxes.

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#44 joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2800 Posts

@leicam6 said:

@joebones5000: ... which has been supported by the Democratic establishment since the 70’s. The Democratic Party have conned you into believing they are different on economics and taxes than the Republicans are, which is just plain wrong. Fake leftist icon Barack Obama managed to make the Bush tax cuts permanent and all the “growth” during those years came at the top.

The fact that some Democrats are running on tax increases doesn’t change anything. We will see what happens when they actually begin governing again rather than grandstanding on positions we can’t be sure they’ll even support when they are in control of government.

If you want to ignore decades of bi-partisan support for the low tax, pro-business environment of the US that the Democrats happily supported and believe they’ll suddenly change their tune during the next Democratic administration, feel free to do that. I, however, refuse to fall for hollow campaign promises and lies again after being burned by Barack Obama.

Huh? It seems you have fallen for anti-Obama propaganda. You should be more careful. Barack Obama made permanent the Bush tax cuts for those under $400/450k The Bush tax cuts were eliminated for individuals with earned income of $400k+ and families with $450k+

Democrats are and have been nearly 100% different on where to target tax cuts than the Republicans, who favor the wealthy.

You should learn more about those you criticize.

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#45 LeicaM6  Online
Member since 2019 • 133 Posts
@joebones5000 said:

Huh? It seems you have fallen for anti-Obama propaganda. You should be more careful. Barack Obama made permanent the Bush tax cuts for those under $400/450k The Bush tax cuts were eliminated for individuals with earned income of $400k+ and families with $450k+

Democrats are and have been nearly 100% different on where to target tax cuts than the Republicans, who favor the wealthy.

You should learn more about those you criticize.

The US categorizes middle-class as around $40-$100k. People with $400k are waaaay above and firmly in the top 2-3% of the country... or in other terms, the rich. If you want to argue those aren't rich people please proceed.

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#46 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 17529 Posts

@mighty-lu-bu said:

Yeah that article is 100% BS. I guess you guys don't know how the tax bracket system works in America, but the higher your income, you more you pay. In fact, the "evil" *sarcasm* 1% pays most of the taxes. But of course if you get your news from CNN and CBS you would think that rich people don't pay taxes.

All you've done in this post is demonstrate that you yourself lack the knowledge of how the tax system works in America. Please read the methodology behind the study upon which the article is based.

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#47  Edited By HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 11000 Posts

@horgen said:

Imagine just how much the deficit will grow if there is a recession with Trump in office.

If a recession were to happen they'd be forced to support another stimulus package and bailout, the alternative being austerity cuts which would plunge the economy into an even greater downward spiral.

They're setting us up to be unable to support the former option as a result of their 'Starve the Beast' mentality.

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#48  Edited By joebones5000
Member since 2016 • 2800 Posts

@leicam6: I'm not interested in convincing you of what is middle class. The limit he wanted was $250k. $400k was a Republican demand, thus he compromised. I'm just correctly pointing it that you were mistaken about Obama making the tax cuts permanent.

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#49 Horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 121337 Posts

@HoolaHoopMan said:
@horgen said:

Imagine just how much the deficit will grow if there is a recession with Trump in office.

If a recession were to happen they'd be forced to support another stimulus package and bailout, the alternative being austerity cuts which would plunge the economy into an even greater downward spiral.

They're setting us up to be unable to support the former option as a result of their 'Starve the Beast' mentality.

And thus Republicans have achieved their ultimate goal. The government can't do anything.

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#50 Xabiss
Member since 2012 • 2917 Posts

Flat tax or national sales tax and be done with all this crap with out tax system. Our tax system is a total joke right now and both sides solutions are idiotic as hell.