A Secession inevitable? New poll shows disturbing data

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Maroxad

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#1  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 18167 Posts

— Significant numbers of both Trump and Biden voters show a willingness to consider violating democratic tendencies and norms if needed to serve their priorities. Roughly 2 in 10 Trump and Biden voters strongly agree it would be better if a “President could take needed actions without being constrained by Congress or courts,” and roughly 4 in 10 (41%) of Biden and half (52%) of Trump voters at least somewhat agree that it’s time to split the country, favoring blue/red states seceding from the union. (see Table 3 below)

https://centerforpolitics.org/crystalball/articles/new-initiative-explores-deep-persistent-divides-between-biden-and-trump-voters/

To start with.

I don't want the US to secede, but the direction the winds are blowing cannot be ignored. Considering that Unity will be needed to compete with the sheer manpower superpowers like China and up and coming super powers like India, I do think weakening our nations by division, is a surefire way to allow potential foreign adversaries to conquer.

Not to mention the serious harm done to trade, we all know how much of an absolute disaster Brexit was, and the unfortunate state of the UK these days.

Just like I don't want the States to Secede, I want the EU states to come together and form a proper federation. We Europeans need to adapt to future challenges, and due to the lack of people, none of us can hope to do it alone.

In any case, it would be best for the US, and the rest of the world to prepare for a worst case scenario of tribalistic partisanship does end up tearing the nation apart. Do you think the US will secede, and if so, what would be the best way to mitigate the inevitable harm that comes from it?

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LJS9502_basic

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#2  Edited By LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 174375 Posts

The US isn't going to split up. This will blow over soon enough. The GOP really needs to talk truth about trump though, even if costs some politicians a job. Then we can move on.

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lamprey263

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#3  Edited By lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 40587 Posts

The country is pretty much broken anyways. "Let's deal with global warming"; "global warming is a hoax". "Let's address the pandemic"; "the pandemic is a hoax".... etc

Let's be clear though, there's one side of the sociopolitical divide driving this disfunction.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#4 GirlUSoCrazy
Member since 2015 • 16093 Posts

That's stupid. Democracies work because people agree to compromise. If people split up every time they disagree then any one democracy will be tiny and weak and unable to survive without cooperating with the others anyway. Better to stay together and be strong and agree to disagree on certain things and just go on with their daily lives.

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mattbbpl

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#5 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 21112 Posts

Secessionists envision living together in their new homogenous countries with like minded people, but that's not how it would work at all. They'd end up with a similar divide in a couple smaller, weaker countries.

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Maroxad

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#6  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 18167 Posts
@mattbbpl said:

Secessionists envision living together in their new homogenous countries with like minded people, but that's not how it would work at all. They'd end up with a similar divide in a couple smaller, weaker countries.

Heh, just the point I wanted to bring up.

The division has never been between Texas and New York. A far greater predictor of political leanings and values can be found far more locally. Between highly developed, and concentrated areas vs less developed less dense areas. And should the secessionists get their wish, they will be in for a rude awakening.

It si the same thing happening in europe really. Even though I am swedish, I got more culturally in line with a college town student in Poland than I do with Jimmie Åkesson.

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horgen

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#7 horgen  Moderator
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@Maroxad: Quick question about Brexit. It has already cost UK more than the fee for being in EU for all the years was in EU, hasn't it?

@LJS9502_basic said:

The US isn't going to split up. This will blow over soon enough. The GOP really needs to talk truth about trump though, even if costs some politicians a job. Then we can move on.

While I believe most of the old GOPers doesn't want to actually split the country, I am unsure about some of the younger ones. Such a belief should not take hold.

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Zaryia

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#8  Edited By Zaryia
Member since 2016 • 16799 Posts

It's all talk. They won't. These states are funded by Blue States. The actual politicians know this and are just throwing red meat to their constituents who don't know this.

AP FACT CHECK: Blue high-tax states fund red low-tax states (apnews.com)

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Maroxad

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#9  Edited By Maroxad
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@horgen said:

@Maroxad: Quick question about Brexit. It has already cost UK more than the fee for being in EU for all the years was in EU, hasn't it?

@LJS9502_basic said:

The US isn't going to split up. This will blow over soon enough. The GOP really needs to talk truth about trump though, even if costs some politicians a job. Then we can move on.

While I believe most of the old GOPers doesn't want to actually split the country, I am unsure about some of the younger ones. Such a belief should not take hold.

There isnt quite enough information just yet on that,

https://fullfact.org/europe/online-cost-brexit-net-contributions/

We will see what happens, overall, it doesnt look too good however.

I have seen GOPers support secession ever since obergefell vs hodges. So that is old news, the 41% of biden supporters at least somewhat favoring a secession however, is pretty disturbing. Those are my concern.

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TheNation

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#10 TheNation
Member since 2021 • 1543 Posts

Im one. Im tired of the right destroying this country. Im sick and tired of my priorities not only being blocked but villified. So yes, im down for this.

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SargentD

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#11  Edited By SargentD
Member since 2020 • 1582 Posts

I'm down for it, a peaceful divorce. Don't want anything to do with the policies coming out of CA or NY. They can live how they want but they should not dictate to the rest of the country. Too wide of a spectrum to have the feds try to dictate to the country as a whole at this point. I lean more in favor of state rights. Let the people in each state decide how they want to live. There is nothing United about the States right now. Peaceful Divorce NOW

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Valgaav_219

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#12 Valgaav_219
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@LJS9502_basic said:

The US isn't going to split up. This will blow over soon enough. The GOP really needs to talk truth about trump though, even if costs some politicians a job. Then we can move on.

Pretty much this. People don't even read or try to verify information anymore before spewing repetitive talking points with no actual factual information. It's like that kid that covers his ears and just yells I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!!!

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Stevo_the_gamer

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#13 Stevo_the_gamer  Moderator
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I think there's a higher chance of someone winning the mega-millions lotto twice in a row before any silly secession, but I do foresee lots of overtime in the future regarding rioting/unrest. Maybe the Mrs. will get her wish of a nice pool.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#14  Edited By GirlUSoCrazy
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@mattbbpl said:

Secessionists envision living together in their new homogenous countries with like minded people, but that's not how it would work at all. They'd end up with a similar divide in a couple smaller, weaker countries.

Plus they'd just have kids with ideas of their own. It's impossible to avoid living with people that disagree with you. The very idea of such a reality is the ultimate in snowflake delusion.

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nintendoboy16

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#15  Edited By nintendoboy16
Member since 2007 • 39140 Posts

China and Russia be like: "Good! GOOD!" *keeps eye on PR and Hawaii, who would be most suspect to independence and staging grounds for both hostile powers*

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firedrakes

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#16 firedrakes
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@sargentd said:

I'm down for it, a peaceful divorce. Don't want anything to do with the policies coming out of CA or NY. They can live how they want but they should not dictate to the rest of the country. Too wide of a spectrum to have the feds try to dictate to the country as a whole at this point. I lean more in favor of state rights. Let the people in each state decide how they want to live. There is nothing United about the States right now. Peaceful Divorce NOW

there never been a peaceful divorce ever.

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mrbojangles25

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#17 mrbojangles25
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GOP needs to get their house in order. Democrats aren't perfect and I have issues with a lot of their crap, but the GOP is the party creating issues here.

Trump was voted in because people were pissed, but the GOP is just fanning the flames now. It's time to unite and work together, not widen the divide.

Ask yourselves, I mean reaaaaaaaalllyyyyyy ask yourselves, who is and has been willing to work with the other side more? The GOP, or the democrats? Generally the latter.

@thenation said:

Im one. Im tired of the right destroying this country. Im sick and tired of my priorities not only being blocked but villified. So yes, im down for this.

It won't work, though. As others have said, it's not about Texas vs New York, California vs Florida...states have enough autonomy from one another to do what they need to do without impacting one another too much.

Plus, we all need each other. Or rather, the red states need the blue states. Louisiana, Mississippi, Kentucky, etc. would all become literal third world countries if they had to go it alone.

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mrbojangles25

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#18 mrbojangles25
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@Stevo_the_gamer said:

I think there's a higher chance of someone winning the mega-millions lotto twice in a row before any silly secession...

Yeah, all this talk really is silly. US is one of the greatest democracies ever, we just need to let it work.

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vl4d_l3nin

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#19  Edited By vl4d_l3nin  Online
Member since 2013 • 3451 Posts

Aside from Texas, there is literally no way for states to leave the union without force.

With that said, (other than Texas) there would be no secession from the United States of America. The country would have to be abolished and other countries formed.

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TheNation

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#20 TheNation
Member since 2021 • 1543 Posts

@vl4d_l3nin: What do you think succession is?

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vl4d_l3nin

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#21 vl4d_l3nin  Online
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@thenation said:

@vl4d_l3nin: What do you think succession is?

When states leave the US and the US continues to exist under it's Constitution. I'm saying that wouldn't happen, since leaving the union is unconstitutional. There is no process for it.

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SargentD

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#22 SargentD
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@vl4d_l3nin: your right but at this point the Constitution is swiss cheese anyway, government goes against the constitution all the time..

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TheNation

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#23 TheNation
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@vl4d_l3nin: Since when has that stopped anyone?

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blaznwiipspman1

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#24  Edited By blaznwiipspman1
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I'm all for free speech...even if you're a hardcore racist terrorist, I have no problem with you speaking your mind. Thats how far I will accept free speech. Even the fake news stuff, the right spreading anti global warming drivel, playing down such a disasterous thing, even spreading lies about covid, the russians spreading conspiracy theories, to me thats all part of the package that comes with democracy. Even if it means the country will split and separate, thats fine. I personally don't want to live in a country with people who have these views and spread them to such extremist extent, so it would make me happy if they gather themselves up and take them and their hillbilly states out of the USA.

To me its worse having a bum like mitch mcconnel, and the ridiculous political supreme court justices telling normal people how to live their lives, and pass on their own extremist morals to the rest of us. Actually if it were up to me, I would gut the justice system altogether from the top down, because its currently a sham.

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#25 blaznwiipspman1
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@girlusocrazy said:

That's stupid. Democracies work because people agree to compromise. If people split up every time they disagree then any one democracy will be tiny and weak and unable to survive without cooperating with the others anyway. Better to stay together and be strong and agree to disagree on certain things and just go on with their daily lives.

so in your view, we should combine with communist china, or the jihadist middle east, because according to you disagreements happen, and we should stick together always right? If people actually believed such nonsense, divorce wouldn't be a thing. Currently more than half of all marriages end up in a divorce. Many americans nowadays have communist and terroristic views, and its mainly coming from the right side of the political spectrum. At some point you have to say ok...we need to go our separate ways

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vl4d_l3nin

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#26 vl4d_l3nin  Online
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@thenation said:

@vl4d_l3nin: Since when has that stopped anyone?

Preserving the union was the initial reason for the Civil War. We didn't just let the slave states leave. 🙄

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#27  Edited By GirlUSoCrazy
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@blaznwiipspman1: Yeah it's called the planet earth and we all live here without killing each other hopefully.

We have "countries" and "allies" and "treaties" and "trade agreements". They are worth protecting. Hopefully we strengthen and improve these.

In the US we agree on democracy and have states and a constitution and laws. They are worth protecting. Hopefully we strengthen and improve these.

Divorce or not we still end up together in a society. We still need to be around different people and function together. Like I pointed out earlier, splitting us up makes us smaller, weaker. Our position in the world and our military strength and our constitution makes us strong. It was built on the ideal of different people having common ground and functioning. We need to prove that. We have done it and can continue to.

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blaznwiipspman1

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#28 blaznwiipspman1
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@girlusocrazy: its not like liberal and conservative countries can't be allies. Just take a look at the Saudis, hard-core conservative to the point they still have a monarchy, women can't even show their face or drive a car, rampant racism to people of dark skin, religious extremists. You can see a few parallels with the right wing here, though obviously not as bad. Nobody says we have to be enemies after we split. We will just be separate countries with lots of cooperation.

The way things are going, if conservatives push another trump, and he gets elected, or if dems elect another black/Trans/gay/woman as president, the country will be back on the brink. And on top of that, the Supreme Court being so right centric, and nothing getting done in the government, lots of people are upset. Things may even reach a boiling point. No point in forcing a marriage that has gone past the point of no return. Right now the country is barely hanging on so as you said maybe things can still be salvaged.

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Maroxad

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#29  Edited By Maroxad
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Well, I am glad most people here see just how bad of an idea secession is. Especially with comments like this propping up,

Divorce or not we still end up together in a society. We still need to be around different people and function together. Like I pointed out earlier, splitting us up makes us smaller, weaker. Our position in the world and our military strength and our constitution makes us strong. It was built on the ideal of different people having common ground and functioning. We need to prove that. We have done it and can continue to.

People in the EU have been having anti federal ideas. And oftentimes they fail to acknowledge that a country with only 5-10 million wont be able to stand up to countries that are 140 million strong. Especially as that 140 million country is already causing problems. If we band together, like never before, we may just get them to back off.

@Stevo_the_gamer said:

I think there's a higher chance of someone winning the mega-millions lotto twice in a row before any silly secession, but I do foresee lots of overtime in the future regarding rioting/unrest. Maybe the Mrs. will get her wish of a nice pool.

For now the laws, in place, and whatnot are stopping the union from seceeding.

I expect the US to get a lot of pro-secession politicians in the coming decades. Odds are however, much like the SNP, they probably wont get very far though. As right now, the majority of this support is found in only a few regions, which is to say, they wont get enough congresspeople. To really get anything done.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#30 GirlUSoCrazy
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@blaznwiipspman1 said:

We will just be separate countries with lots of cooperation.

We could always cooperate right now

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blaznwiipspman1

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#31 blaznwiipspman1
Member since 2007 • 9120 Posts

@girlusocrazy: I like your optimistic point if view. It might not be realistic, but at least it's good to see people have such hope.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#32  Edited By GirlUSoCrazy
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@blaznwiipspman1: It is realistic, it's our only choice. Maybe it's hard for this generation to see why without a couple of world wars but our grandfathers knew it. Every generation has to come to this realization. Right now it feels like people are taking what we've got for granted.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#33 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 13113 Posts

Secession is really just a perverse hypothetical that people are throwing around to stoke division and clicks. The almighty dollar always wins which means no state would leave the union. It would face economic suicide. These politicians may be soulless and morally bankrupt but they're still backed and funded by corporate interests and lobbyists. These same interest and lobbyists would never allow their bottom line to disintegrate into a break down of free trade across a continent and potential civil war igniting.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#34 GirlUSoCrazy
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@HoolaHoopMan: Also people who just don't have the big picture and are thinking about short term changes, they aren't really considering all of the implications because they aren't aware of all of the pieces that are necessary for this to be possible and what the transition and future will actually be like.

A lot of knee jerk reactions and rose tinted glasses easily come on when on the daily you're exposed to material that makes you simmer and seethe. The mental space and exhaustion this type of thing is taking up is bound to wear on people and make them feel more desperate in need for an end. People aren't meant to be so stressed about matters instead of focusing on their daily life, to the point where it's coming to a head and they become willing to take desperate measures.

This is happening to everyone. But we have to be cool. Count our blessings. Enjoy what we have in our personal lives. Look at everything that came before and don't take for granted what we have now.

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LJS9502_basic

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#35  Edited By LJS9502_basic
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@girlusocrazy said:

@HoolaHoopMan: Also people who just don't have the big picture and are thinking about short term changes, they aren't really considering all of the implications because they aren't aware of all of the pieces that are necessary for this to be possible and what the transition and future will actually be like.

A lot of knee jerk reactions and rose tinted glasses easily come on when on the daily you're exposed to material that makes you simmer and seethe. The mental space and exhaustion this type of thing is taking up is bound to wear on people and make them feel more desperate in need for an end. People aren't meant to be so stressed about matters instead of focusing on their daily life, to the point where it's coming to a head and they become willing to take desperate measures.

This is happening to everyone. But we have to be cool. Count our blessings. Enjoy what we have in our personal lives. Look at everything that came before and don't take for granted what we have now.

Red states would have a rude awakening if they lost that blue state money.

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blaznwiipspman1

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#36  Edited By blaznwiipspman1
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@HoolaHoopMan: many people think that red states are holding back blue states. In that case the bottom line is being affected by the union still being intact. If the founders could see the future and know what we know now, do you think they would have accepted all the red states into the union in the first place?

Also another big reason that the union is crumbling is because of articles like this

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/15/politics/clean-electricity-program-cut-budget-bill-climate/index.html

The climate portion of the bill is being cut from the final draft. It's not even surprising because I made a thread about it last weak. It's being held back by one guy on the democrats side. A single guy, ONE out of 48 senators is the reason the bill is being gutted. It the red states and blue states were separate countries, guys like Joe Manchin would not be able to dictate the terms on something so important as global warming.

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#37 HoolaHoopMan
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@blaznwiipspman1 said:

@HoolaHoopMan: many people think that red states are holding back blue states. In that case the bottom line is being affected by the union still being intact. If the founders could see the future and know what we know now, do you think they would have accepted all the red states into the union in the first place?

Also another big reason that the union is crumbling is because of articles like this

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/15/politics/clean-electricity-program-cut-budget-bill-climate/index.html

The climate portion of the bill is being cut from the final draft. It's not even surprising because I made a thread about it last weak. It's being held back by one guy on the democrats side. A single guy, ONE out of 48 senators is the reason the bill is being gutted. It the red states and blue states were separate countries, guys like Joe Manchin would not be able to dictate the terms on something so important as global warming.

L O L

It's not being held back by one guy. It's being held back by all republicans and a single democrat. And entire party is against climate initiatives yet it's the democrats fault for not getting it through since a single member isn't on board. This type of logic is asinine and disingenuous.

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blaznwiipspman1

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#38  Edited By blaznwiipspman1
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@HoolaHoopMan: you didn't answer the question though. If the founders knew what we know now, would they have accepted red states into the union or allow them to secede? Which do you think is more likely?

Like I'm saying, if red states and blue states were a separate country, then Joe Manchin wouldn't get to influence the bill to such a degree. The right are fundamentally against the climate bill, that will never change because they are extremists that hold a certain ideology. You might as well be better off trying to convert jihad sharia law terrorists into Christians. Hell will freeze over when it happens.

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LJS9502_basic

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#39  Edited By LJS9502_basic
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@blaznwiipspman1 said:

@HoolaHoopMan: you didn't answer the question though. If the founders knew what we know now, would they have accepted red states into the union or allow them to secede? Which do you think is more likely?

Like I'm saying, if red states and blue states were a separate country, then Joe Manchin wouldn't get to influence the bill to such a degree. The right are fundamentally against the climate bill, that will never change because they are extremists that hold a certain ideology. You might as well be better off trying to convert jihad sharia law terrorists into Christians. Hell will freeze over when it happens.

Parties weren't the same then. Also the VP was the losing presidential candidate.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#40  Edited By GirlUSoCrazy
Member since 2015 • 16093 Posts

@blaznwiipspman1: If you're saying dems should do this to get what they want, they already could whip the vote. But they don't because they want to proceed in good faith. Nothing wrong with that. But there are existing options. To take as drastic a measure as you propose just for short term gains is foolish.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#41  Edited By HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 13113 Posts

@blaznwiipspman1 said:

@HoolaHoopMan: you didn't answer the question though. If the founders knew what we know now, would they have accepted red states into the union or allow them to secede? Which do you think is more likely?

I'm sure the founders had many motivations, but it seems to me that preserving and unifying the colonies was one of them. Hell, they even conceded a 3/5th compromise on small slave owner states so that they'd get on board. This also included the creation of the Senate. I'd say that history shows they favored preserving a union over moral clarity in many respects.

Either way though I'm not sure I see much point in your hypothetical. It serves little purpose to me.

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Maroxad

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#42 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 18167 Posts

People have been deradicalized before and they can be deradicalized again.

Weakening the fossil fuel lobby is the best course of action, they are the ones pulling the strings on the GOP. Which dogmatizes climate change skepticism. End all fossil fuel subsidies.

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Kadin_Kai

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#43 Kadin_Kai
Member since 2015 • 1973 Posts

It definitely won’t happen in the next 30 years, but in the long run it’s not an impossibility.

A couple of things could trigger this. Another divisive President, a major economic recession with a slow and uneven recovery, losing the status as the largest economy, plus another prolonged war could trigger could cause major societal division.

The largest driver would be the economy, countries don’t tend to split or undergo revolutions when the economy is robust.

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horgen

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#44 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 125845 Posts

@Maroxad said:

People have been deradicalized before and they can be deradicalized again.

Weakening the fossil fuel lobby is the best course of action, they are the ones pulling the strings on the GOP. Which dogmatizes climate change skepticism. End all fossil fuel subsidies.

Let people pay the full price for gas? US will switch to electric within a year if that happens.

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Maroxad

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#45  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 18167 Posts
@horgen said:
@Maroxad said:

People have been deradicalized before and they can be deradicalized again.

Weakening the fossil fuel lobby is the best course of action, they are the ones pulling the strings on the GOP. Which dogmatizes climate change skepticism. End all fossil fuel subsidies.

Let people pay the full price for gas? US will switch to electric within a year if that happens.

Not if we dont do it instantly :P

But yeah, I think over the course of 5 years would be a fine plan, and be transperant about it so the public knows. People will still need to get around, and the US public transportation system has been so crippled it wont be able to do it. But if it is done through a gradual change, I think people will have time to adapt either by adopting an electric vehicle or use public transportation more.

Of course, a policy like this would kill any political career, so I doubt it will ever happen. America's culture is very autocentric.

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horgen

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#46 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 125845 Posts

@Maroxad said:
@horgen said:
@Maroxad said:

People have been deradicalized before and they can be deradicalized again.

Weakening the fossil fuel lobby is the best course of action, they are the ones pulling the strings on the GOP. Which dogmatizes climate change skepticism. End all fossil fuel subsidies.

Let people pay the full price for gas? US will switch to electric within a year if that happens.

Not if we dont do it instantly :P

But yeah, I think over the course of 5 years would be a fine plan, and be transperant about it so the public knows. People will still need to get around, and the US public transportation system has been so crippled it wont be able to do it. But if it is done through a gradual change, I think people will have time to adapt either by adopting an electric vehicle or use public transportation more.

Of course, a policy like this would kill any political career, so I doubt it will ever happen. America's culture is very autocentric.

Having people adjust to it? It would take closer to 15 than 5. It's a lot of cars to replace, a lot of poor people need a decent change at getting an electric car as well.

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comp_atkins

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#47 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 37457 Posts

seems pretty fucking un-american to me...

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#48 GirlUSoCrazy
Member since 2015 • 16093 Posts

I still can't believe anyone would seriously consider this, I can't believe it's even a topic. Seems like s*** that would be suggested by enemy influencers trying to destabilize the country.

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Maroxad

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#49 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 18167 Posts

@girlusocrazy said:

I still can't believe anyone would seriously consider this, I can't believe it's even a topic. Seems like s*** that would be suggested by enemy influencers trying to destabilize the country.

For the longest time this is a thread I did NOT want to make.

But alas, here we are. After trying to ignore this topic for so long, after seeing some disturbing trends and statistics, I feel like this can not be a topic that can no longer be ignored.

If there is any consolation, pretty much everyone here agrees this is a terrible idea.

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GirlUSoCrazy

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#50 GirlUSoCrazy
Member since 2015 • 16093 Posts

@Maroxad: It's hard to believe there is enough people that would actually want to follow through with this. Maybe an in-the-moment flare-up of exasperation that lead to a remark but I still can't believe people who believe in democracy would actually want this. It seems like if anyone would seriously consider this then they should also seriously consider our history and the history of the world.