nVidia loses over $100 billion dollars in valuation. Is RTX Gaming GPU's that bad?

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Posted by Xtasy26 (5395 posts) 6 months, 23 days ago

Poll: nVidia loses over $100 billion dollars in valuation. Is RTX Gaming GPU's that bad? (29 votes)

Yes, it's that bad. 24%
No, it's not that bad. 10%
No, it's not that bad just priced too high and performance jump isn't great compared to Pascal 62%
One of the worst GPU generations since the GeForce FX series. 3%

Every since nVidia released their financial results last month nVidia has lost over $100 billion dollars in valuation due to poor sales of the RTX GPU's compared to sales of Pascal GPU's. This is the biggest drop in valuation in nVidia's history. The other being back in 2008 when they released the GeForce GTX 200 series only to be beaten by AMD with their HD 4800 series which undercut the 200 series in price and matched it in performance. Also, nVidia having all those defective GPU's played a role at the time. This begs the question. Are gamers that not interested in RTX GPU's? In terms of performance this was the worst performance increase in generation to generation wise. Yes, even worse than the GeForce FX series. In non ray traced games the GTX 2070 is only 5 - 10% faster than the GTX 1080/Vega 64. An overclocked custom GTX 1080/Vega 64 can easily close the gap. The GTX 2080 is only as fast a GTX 1080 Ti. The only significant improvement was with the GTX 2080 Ti which costs freaking $1200. Most of what I am hearing is that it's priced too high and not enough performance increase.

So, is this the worst GPU series launch since 2002/2003 when the GeForce FX 5000 series launched? I just think that nVidia tried to push the industry forward and most gamers aren't buying into Ray Tracing yet. I commend nVidia for doing it. It's kind of like when the Fury X launched, AMD pushed technology by introducing HBM and most gamers didn't care and also similarly it was priced to high. Too me it's just too expensive and the price increase doesn't justify the performance.

So, is RTX GPU's that bad?

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#1 Posted by urbangamez (3491 posts) -

no its not bad, its the stupid stock market nonsense as usual and a series of events.

the first problem was the insane bitcoin nonsense that made gpu's scarce, drove up prices and profits, stock markets love that. people asked amd and nvidia to help so they ordered more silicon to help with the shortage of gpus, only the bitcoin market crashed leaving them with excess inventory, new cards to sell and a drop in demand which means lower guidance for the financial quarter, stock markets don't like that.

next inflation adjusment, the price of new tech, lack of competition from amd, high memory prices especially GDDR6, a need for higher margins on hardware and a trade war lead to nvidia demanding a higher price for their card. most consumers can't afford it so sales will not meet expectations stocks markets really don't like that.

as for the card itself its a good card and it does push boundaries of what is possible in graphics which is what you want science engineering to do. if the the 2080Ti came in at $700 prolly $800 most people would be happy, the stock market not so much.

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#2 Posted by Mickeyminime (1445 posts) -

I don't have it and to be honest, most people i know who have a PC say avoid it until much much much later

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#3 Posted by skipper847 (7323 posts) -

@Mickeyminime said:

I don't have it and to be honest, most people i know who have a PC say avoid it until much much much later

You mean Much Much Much Cheaper?

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#4 Posted by PredatorRules (12447 posts) -

Moved to PC & A/V HardwareForum

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#5 Posted by Mickeyminime (1445 posts) -

@skipper847: Buying it when it's cheaper is a bonus. But it's more related to it being new. Best to wait for the reviews and when more games have access to the RTX. I also have the 1080ti so for me, i'm beyond happy with the card i currently have. All games i own run perfectly with it, so buying an RTX for a minor touch wouldn't be worth it.

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#6 Posted by ronvalencia (28078 posts) -

RTX 2080 Ti has a large 754 mm2 chip area size.

GTX 1080 Ti has 471 mm2 chip area size.

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#7 Posted by Xtasy26 (5395 posts) -
@ronvalencia said:

RTX 2080 Ti has a large 754 mm2 chip area size.

GTX 1080 Ti has 471 mm2 chip area size.

Well that is true. But that doesn't justify nearly double the price for the 2080 Ti when compared with the 1080 Ti.

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#8 Posted by Howmakewood (5932 posts) -

Overpriced is what it is, but when the competition isn't there it's what you get

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#9 Edited by ronvalencia (28078 posts) -

@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:

RTX 2080 Ti has a large 754 mm2 chip area size.

GTX 1080 Ti has 471 mm2 chip area size.

Well that is true. But that doesn't justify nearly double the price for the 2080 Ti when compared with the 1080 Ti.

GTX 1080 Ti has less workstation and forward looking features (e.g. DirectML) when compared to RTX 2080 Ti (CUDA features similar to Volta minus FP64 feature).

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#10 Posted by Doerevolt (41 posts) -

@howmakewood said:

Overpriced is what it is, but when the competition isn't there it's what you get

AMD is catching up wait 1 or 2 more year they will get there.

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#11 Posted by R4gn4r0k (31215 posts) -

I appreciate that they inovated, and developers and early adapters seem to love the idea of Ray Tracing.

But I feel they should've released a GTX series of cards focussed on power, alongside RTX cards.

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#12 Posted by Xtasy26 (5395 posts) -
@ronvalencia said:
@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:

RTX 2080 Ti has a large 754 mm2 chip area size.

GTX 1080 Ti has 471 mm2 chip area size.

Well that is true. But that doesn't justify nearly double the price for the 2080 Ti when compared with the 1080 Ti.

GTX 1080 Ti has less workstation and forward looking features (e.g. DirectML) when compared to RTX 2080 Ti (CUDA features similar to Volta minus FP64 feature).

Yes. But that still doesn't justify nearly double the price when die size is taking into consideration. They already have their Data Center GPU's that takes care of the enterprise market. This amounts nothing much than price gouging.

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#13 Posted by Xtasy26 (5395 posts) -
@doerevolt said:
@howmakewood said:

Overpriced is what it is, but when the competition isn't there it's what you get

AMD is catching up wait 1 or 2 more year they will get there.

Ray Tracing is apparently "deep in development". So I expect something in the next 1 - 2 years.

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#14 Posted by Horgen (120611 posts) -

@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:

RTX 2080 Ti has a large 754 mm2 chip area size.

GTX 1080 Ti has 471 mm2 chip area size.

Well that is true. But that doesn't justify nearly double the price for the 2080 Ti when compared with the 1080 Ti.

GTX 1080 Ti has less workstation and forward looking features (e.g. DirectML) when compared to RTX 2080 Ti (CUDA features similar to Volta minus FP64 feature).

Yes. But that still doesn't justify nearly double the price when die size is taking into consideration. They already have their Data Center GPU's that takes care of the enterprise market. This amounts nothing much than price gouging.

Rate of chips they can sell goes down as well. Plus they want to get money back for investing in ray tracing.

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#15 Edited by ronvalencia (28078 posts) -

@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:

RTX 2080 Ti has a large 754 mm2 chip area size.

GTX 1080 Ti has 471 mm2 chip area size.

Well that is true. But that doesn't justify nearly double the price for the 2080 Ti when compared with the 1080 Ti.

GTX 1080 Ti has less workstation and forward looking features (e.g. DirectML) when compared to RTX 2080 Ti (CUDA features similar to Volta minus FP64 feature).

Yes. But that still doesn't justify nearly double the price when die size is taking into consideration. They already have their Data Center GPU's that takes care of the enterprise market. This amounts nothing much than price gouging.

RTX 2080 Ti(TU102)'s chip size =754 mm2

GTX 1080 Ti (GP102)'s chip size = 471 mm2

TU102 is 60 percent high chip area size when compared to GP102.

Both PCBs has printed 384 bit bus.

Use https://caly-technologies.com/die-yield-calculator/ for max dies per wafer estimate

TU102 has 69 chips per 300 mm wafer without defect.

GP102 has 112 chips per 300 mm wafer without defect.

GP102 has 62 percent more chips per 300 mm wafer when compared to TU102

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#sort=price&c=424

Cheapest RTX 2080 Ti is $1129.99 USD

Apply 1.6X chip size increase on $699 price target yields $1118.40 USD

Apply 1.62X chip count difference on $699 price target yields $1132.38 USD

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#16 Edited by Xtasy26 (5395 posts) -
@ronvalencia said:
@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Xtasy26 said:

Well that is true. But that doesn't justify nearly double the price for the 2080 Ti when compared with the 1080 Ti.

GTX 1080 Ti has less workstation and forward looking features (e.g. DirectML) when compared to RTX 2080 Ti (CUDA features similar to Volta minus FP64 feature).

Yes. But that still doesn't justify nearly double the price when die size is taking into consideration. They already have their Data Center GPU's that takes care of the enterprise market. This amounts nothing much than price gouging.

RTX 2080 Ti(TU102)'s chip size =754 mm2

GTX 1080 Ti (GP102)'s chip size = 471 mm2

TU102 is 60 percent high chip area size when compared to GP102.

Both PCBs has printed 384 bit bus.

Use https://caly-technologies.com/die-yield-calculator/ for max dies per wafer estimate

TU102 has 69 chips per 300 mm wafer without defect.

GP102 has 112 chips per 300 mm wafer without defect.

GP102 has 62 percent more chips per 300 mm wafer when compared to TU102

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#sort=price&c=424

Cheapest RTX 2080 Ti is $1129.99 USD

Apply 1.6X chip size increase on $699 price target yields $1118.40 USD

Apply 1.62X chip count difference on $699 price target yields $1132.38 USD

You don't know the defects ratio. Only nVidia would know that. Also, any side benefit that TSMC gives them per wafer since they buy in volume. If you number are correct than that would mean that nVidia is barely making a profit, which I doubt is the case. Judging by their quarterly results. That's on top of the previous quarter when they were selling the 1080 Ti which they were making huge profit.

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#17 Posted by Xtasy26 (5395 posts) -
@horgen said:
@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:

RTX 2080 Ti has a large 754 mm2 chip area size.

GTX 1080 Ti has 471 mm2 chip area size.

Well that is true. But that doesn't justify nearly double the price for the 2080 Ti when compared with the 1080 Ti.

GTX 1080 Ti has less workstation and forward looking features (e.g. DirectML) when compared to RTX 2080 Ti (CUDA features similar to Volta minus FP64 feature).

Yes. But that still doesn't justify nearly double the price when die size is taking into consideration. They already have their Data Center GPU's that takes care of the enterprise market. This amounts nothing much than price gouging.

Rate of chips they can sell goes down as well. Plus they want to get money back for investing in ray tracing.

True. And I suspect that is the case with 2080 Ti's but looking at the 1080 Ti's they were selling a boatloads of them as their quarterly results reflect. I doubt the Bill of Materials for 2080 Ti's would reach $1100 for them to just $1200 price.

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#18 Posted by Horgen (120611 posts) -

@Xtasy26 said:

True. And I suspect that is the case with 2080 Ti's but looking at the 1080 Ti's they were selling a boatloads of them as their quarterly results reflect. I doubt the Bill of Materials for 2080 Ti's would reach $1100 for them to just $1200 price.

The bill probably isn't over 400$, however maybe 30% of the chips has enough failures in them so they won't work. The same rate for 1080Ti might have been 15. That heavily affects the price.

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#19 Posted by Xtasy26 (5395 posts) -
@horgen said:
@Xtasy26 said:

True. And I suspect that is the case with 2080 Ti's but looking at the 1080 Ti's they were selling a boatloads of them as their quarterly results reflect. I doubt the Bill of Materials for 2080 Ti's would reach $1100 for them to just $1200 price.

The bill probably isn't over 400$, however maybe 30% of the chips has enough failures in them so they won't work. The same rate for 1080Ti might have been 15. That heavily affects the price.

True. But me and you don't have the exact figures of the failure rate. I do agree that 1080Ti is probably less given that it's on a mature 16nm node hence less failures.

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#20 Edited by ronvalencia (28078 posts) -

@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:

RTX 2080 Ti(TU102)'s chip size =754 mm2

GTX 1080 Ti (GP102)'s chip size = 471 mm2

TU102 is 60 percent high chip area size when compared to GP102.

Both PCBs has printed 384 bit bus.

Use https://caly-technologies.com/die-yield-calculator/ for max dies per wafer estimate

TU102 has 69 chips per 300 mm wafer without defect.

GP102 has 112 chips per 300 mm wafer without defect.

GP102 has 62 percent more chips per 300 mm wafer when compared to TU102

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#sort=price&c=424

Cheapest RTX 2080 Ti is $1129.99 USD

Apply 1.6X chip size increase on $699 price target yields $1118.40 USD

Apply 1.62X chip count difference on $699 price target yields $1132.38 USD

You don't know the defects ratio. Only nVidia would know that. Also, any side benefit that TSMC gives them per wafer since they buy in volume. If you number are correct than that would mean that nVidia is barely making a profit, which I doubt is the case. Judging by their quarterly results. That's on top of the previous quarter when they were selling the 1080 Ti which they were making huge profit.

Retail $700 price target includes retail, wholesale and NVIDIA's profit margins and it's scaled to larger TU102 chip.

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#21 Posted by ronvalencia (28078 posts) -

@horgen said:
@Xtasy26 said:

True. And I suspect that is the case with 2080 Ti's but looking at the 1080 Ti's they were selling a boatloads of them as their quarterly results reflect. I doubt the Bill of Materials for 2080 Ti's would reach $1100 for them to just $1200 price.

The bill probably isn't over 400$, however maybe 30% of the chips has enough failures in them so they won't work. The same rate for 1080Ti might have been 15. That heavily affects the price.

GTX 1080 Ti's GP102 is a salvage chip when compared to Titan XP and Tesla P40 just as RTX 2080 Ti's TU102.

TU102 based GPUs are

Quadro RTX 8000

Quadro RTX 6000

Titan RTX

RTX 2080 Ti (salvage chip to improve yield)

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/nvidia-tu102.g813

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#22 Posted by Xtasy26 (5395 posts) -
@ronvalencia said:
@Xtasy26 said:
@ronvalencia said:

RTX 2080 Ti(TU102)'s chip size =754 mm2

GTX 1080 Ti (GP102)'s chip size = 471 mm2

TU102 is 60 percent high chip area size when compared to GP102.

Both PCBs has printed 384 bit bus.

Use https://caly-technologies.com/die-yield-calculator/ for max dies per wafer estimate

TU102 has 69 chips per 300 mm wafer without defect.

GP102 has 112 chips per 300 mm wafer without defect.

GP102 has 62 percent more chips per 300 mm wafer when compared to TU102

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#sort=price&c=424

Cheapest RTX 2080 Ti is $1129.99 USD

Apply 1.6X chip size increase on $699 price target yields $1118.40 USD

Apply 1.62X chip count difference on $699 price target yields $1132.38 USD

You don't know the defects ratio. Only nVidia would know that. Also, any side benefit that TSMC gives them per wafer since they buy in volume. If you number are correct than that would mean that nVidia is barely making a profit, which I doubt is the case. Judging by their quarterly results. That's on top of the previous quarter when they were selling the 1080 Ti which they were making huge profit.

Retail $700 price target includes retail, wholesale and NVIDIA's profit margins and it's scaled to larger TU102 chip.

And they are still making a profit on it. Which goes back to my point and that profits are really good despite the larger chip size.

Still had $567 million in profit in Q4 of 2019 which includes a full quarter of 2080 Ti sales and two months added on to it. Which means the profits margins are really good despite it being a "weaker" quarter compared to previous quarters.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/nvidia-shares-up-after-gpu-maker-posts-mixed-results-for-turbulent-q4/

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#23 Posted by ProtossRushX (5442 posts) -

This is horrible I told my dad to invest in Nvidia I hope they rebound cuz I feel bad for him :P Maybe the stock will go back up after they make their next cards

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#24 Posted by SaltSlasher (1145 posts) -

People realize that the last cards sold insane numbers cause of mining. There is no way they'll sell as many of the RTX cards, and even so, they just came out not long ago.

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#25 Posted by schu (10051 posts) -

The 2080 TI just doesn't do anything particularly well in relation to its price. It wasn't as massive of a performance boost as people had hoped and the RTX feature is basically trash and would have been predicted by anyone who has ever followed GPU technology for a reasonable period of time. DLSS is also a messy joke. Epic Fail. Maybe next time. Will AMD manage to respond? Of course not.

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#26 Posted by Kh1ndjal (2770 posts) -

i feel like rtx for gpus is like 3d for tvs.

it's nice, but it's not worth the upgrade.

and the popular games (fortnite, apex legends, dota, counter-strike, league of legends) have no ray-tracing whatsoever. that ai machine-learning ray-tracing premium you're paying isn't even in that game that you'll spend 40 hours a week playing. apart from BFV, no major multi-player game supports it, and there's only so much of a single player game you can play (metro exodus and rise of the tomb raider (which still has no ray-tracing) are no witcher).