Is there really such thing as a true PC RPG?

Maybe ya'll could help me out on this one and maybe give some suggestions.

I recently repurchased the Baldur's Gate series. After trying a bunch of games over the last few years, trying to find that one game that would capture me like BG did, I've come to the realization that the "closest" thing to a true RPG was Baldur's Gate and nothing since.

I recently finished a campaign of D&D pen a paper game (1st & 2nd ed ruleset, ya, old school, lot's of thinking, lots of fun!) with a bunch of friends. It was quite an adventure; fun, intense and quite epic. It lasted about 6 months. The game is done now and due to life and schedules, I don't have a P&P game going right now so I decided to get into a PC RPG for a while.

Well, I tried a bunch of the new ones (Dragon Age, NWN2, Elder Scrolls Oblivion, etc. etc. Ok, not all of them THAT new). They all left me wanting. That's why I got the BG series and started playing BGII from the beginning (never actually made it to the finish of Throne of Bhaal way back in the day).

I mean, what does RPG mean? It means ROLE PLAYING game. Right? So, what games on the comp actually allow you to ROLE PLAY? In my humble opinion none of them, but BG came the closest. The deepest most epic "RPG" ever made and, again in my humble opinion, nothing has come close since.

So, what do you think? Are there any true RPGs out there (old or new)? If so, what are they and maybe give some info on the depth of the Role Playing because I may not have tried that particular one you're naming and would like to give it a go.

BTW, I'm not saying I'm absolutely right on this rant. It's just my humble feelings about a game genre that I'm still hoping will one day deliver what the genre name implies. :)

All the games you listed are role playing games

Because it's not the kind you're looking for doesn't make them any less role playing

Everything from Fallout to Dragon Age to even Warband are RPG's, just different styles

Drakensang is using the German Das Schwarze Auge ruleset, which is even more complicated than DnD and completely ass-backwards for someone coming from DnD.

All the games you listed are role playing games

Because it's not the kind you're looking for doesn't make them any less role playing

Everything from Fallout to Dragon Age to even Warband are RPG's, just different styles

Jaysonguy

Ah, so you're looking for the original Fallout...

I voted yes, cause there is-BG and SoA. For someone who grown up on Death Knights of Krynn and Menzoberranzan it is very hard to find a good true RPG. I`ve played endless hours of AD&D on pen and paper ages ago and games that using its rules are rare indeed. However do not forget that RPG does not solely means fantasy enviroment. I would be very happy if a game using Shadowrun or Cyberpunk2020 system came out capturing their athmosphere.

I guess they(including AD&D)just not popular any more to devs to make a good game, we live the era of FPS and visuals where critcal thinking and problem solving is not needed after all.

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

All the games you listed are role playing games

Because it's not the kind you're looking for doesn't make them any less role playing

Everything from Fallout to Dragon Age to even Warband are RPG's, just different styles

1Lonehawk

Yeah but you are playing a role.

I mean if if there was a true role playing game most would just go home and that's never an option

You bring up D&D but all that isn't different from the others its just a role you're playing, you're just playing out someone else's scenario with a character you make. It would be the same experience if you were handed a premade character and had to follow out someone else's course.

Kinda like the TSR Marvel games

I think it's impossible to have something as organic as the pen and paper games because there needs to be certain guides in place to give everyone a good experience but really with the pen and paper games only one player gets the organic experience because they're on charge of all the scenarios, everyone else fits into a role just like they do in all these different RPG's

Actually, I still have my copy of BG2 and Throne of Baal. Anyone know wether or not there's gfx mods and where I go to find the mod community?

I know they are all in the RPG genre, but do you feel you get to actually "role play" in these games? I'm not talking about "styles", I'm talking about being able to play a role in a game; to be able to make choices with consequences, to be able to explore by your will and not be lead along....etc etc. I don't believe that "do this quest, kill this guy, grab loot X, rinse and repeat" quite qualifies as "role playing." Do you? Just clarifying my question. :)1Lonehawk

I voted yes, cause there is-BG and SoA. For someone who grown up on Death Knights of Krynn and Menzoberranzan it is very hard to find a good true RPG. I`ve played endless hours of AD&D on pen and paper ages ago and games that using its rules are rare indeed. However do not forget that RPG does not solely means fantasy enviroment. I would be very happy if a game using Shadowrun or Cyberpunk2020 system came out capturing their athmosphere.

I guess they(including AD&D)just not popular any more to devs to make a good game, we live the era of FPS and visuals where critcal thinking and problem solving is not needed after all.

Greyfoo-t

I have no idea what you mean. What's so un-RPGish about Oblivion? You need more choices or something? Can't help you with that..

Well, you're playing the role of _____ hero in the games spoken about.
RPGs that have choices that I can think of are:
Mass Effect 1/2
The Witcher 2 when it comes out (I assume the first one had choices too)

IcyToasters

The difference between P&P roleplay and video game role play, is a computer is limited to the amount of options available. So you are making desicions based on whats available. Thats what I thought was good about Deus Ex, it tried to include everything in terms of desicions. With pen and paper, youre limited by imaginations and dice rolls.

To truley make a comprehensive roleplaying experience you would have to create a game that adapts and literally has no limits.

So im afraid we just have to wait for devs to be hard working enough to put a game in production for many, many, many years. Or have a team of about 600 people working on the same game.

I have no idea what you mean. What's so un-RPGish about Oblivion? You need more choices or something? Can't help you with that..

Litchie

RPG is a game which allows you to develop your character the way you want to and there are many of them.

My personal favourite is KOTOR.

There are no true or fake RPGs. There are RPGs and other genres with RPG elements.

For example, if an RPG isn't like KOTOR and I don't like it that much, it doens't mean it's not an RPG.

Role playing Defined : to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction; to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role. That was from dictionary.com

BY definition, every game claiming to be an RPG, is in fact an RPG. You assume the role of another character and do quests. To say they are not RPG's is a little silly, but I think where you're trying to get at is the quality experience and depth of new upcoming games. I would agree with you there, as new games have been watered down and "dumbified" to meet the casual gamer. Take any RPG made in late 80's early 90's and you'll find great difficulty, great character development, more character customization, compelling story lines, etc. I could keep going. I feel that the nature to this is the Gaming industry is becoming more of a business than an Art. People are after money more than they are after producing the best work they possibly can. Not saying all new games today are crap, I thoroughly enjoy most new games, but besides the shiny polished graphics and 3D imagery. They can not compare to older games.

The difference between P&P roleplay and video game role play, is a computer is limited to the amount of options available. So you are making desicions based on whats available. Thats what I thought was good about Deus Ex, it tried to include everything in terms of desicions. With pen and paper, youre limited by imaginations and dice rolls.

To truley make a comprehensive roleplaying experience you would have to create a game that adapts and literally has no limits.

So im afraid we just have to wait for devs to be hard working enough to put a game in production for many, many, many years. Or have a team of about 600 people working on the same game.

D1zzyCriminal

Role playing Defined : to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction; to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role. That was from dictionary.com

BY definition, every game claiming to be an RPG, is in fact an RPG. You assume the role of another character and do quests. To say they are not RPG's is a little silly, but I think where you're trying to get at is the quality experience and depth of new upcoming games. I would agree with you there, as new games have been watered down and "dumbified" to meet the casual gamer. Take any RPG made in late 80's early 90's and you'll find great difficulty, great character development, more character customization, compelling story lines, etc. I could keep going. I feel that the nature to this is the Gaming industry is becoming more of a business than an Art. People are after money more than they are after producing the best work they possibly can. Not saying all new games today are crap, I thoroughly enjoy most new games, but besides the shiny polished graphics and 3D imagery. They can not compare to older games.

l0ner_1

Try Nethackkdawg88

In what direction? 6

As you kick the door, it crashes open!

The goblin hits!

:)

Try Nethack, Ancient Domains of Mystery, or Legerdemain.kdawg88

I know they are all in the RPG genre, but do you feel you get to actually "role play" in these games? I'm not talking about "styles", I'm talking about being able to play a role in a game; to be able to make choices with consequences, to be able to explore by your will and not be lead along....etc etc. I don't believe that "do this quest, kill this guy, grab loot X, rinse and repeat" quite qualifies as "role playing." Do you? Just clarifying my question. :)1Lonehawk

Rather than discussing the semantics of the term RPG, I think I'll try to understand what characteristics you are looking for in your RPGs. For me, the difference between a good rpg and an average rpg is the ability to choose how your character behaves and interacts wtih others, what your character can and can't do in terms of abilities and the ability to choose what you want to do and where you want to go.

Bioware is the company that has traditionally made games like this, although they aren't exlusively the only company that makes non linear RPGs. A few of their titles have already been mentioned but I'll go ahead and list my personal favs:

Deus Ex (an FPS that looked dated when it came out, you may be turned off by it's ugly appearence but this game is an absolute gem. Detailed conversation trees, a complicated skill system and branching story paths)

KOTOR 1 and 2 (The Star Wars movie prequels ruined Star Wars for me, but these games renewed my interest. KOTOR 1 in particular has an excellent story that frankly could have made a better movie than some of the movies. The gameplay is sort of a 3d version of the D&D games it borrowed from but with a party of 3 instead of 6 and no isometric view. If you liked the Bioware D&D games you'll probably like this as well as you'll see a lot of similarities. Once you get a little ways into the game, you can choose your path).

Fallout 1 and 2 (Great character stat system, open world and with VERY detailed conversation trees. How you approach any situation is determined by how you have chosen to build your character).

Mass Effect 1 and 2 (Some of the best games out there IMHO. Mass Effect is an open exploration game in which you can do whatever you want. You design your character from the ground up including picking different elements of their background, which affects how events play out in the game. Most impressively, literally hundreds of choices you make in Mass Effect 1 will carry over to Mass Effect 2 if you transfer your save. It's fun to talk to other people who played the same game to see how they solved each problem and find out how different every person's playthrough is).

-Byshop

[QUOTE="kdawg88"]Try NethackStrawberryHill

In what direction? 6

As you kick the door, it crashes open!

The goblin hits!

:)

Planescape: Torment! It's made by the same people who made the first two Fallouts and the Icewind Dale series. One of the best RPG's of all-time.

And as far as roguelikes go, Linley's Dungeon Crawl is king. Great pacing, great difficulty, great systems, great game.

not yet

You MUST play the first 2 fallouts, forget the third one, it's bad. The first two are exactly what you are looking for. I would recommend Planescape but it's more linear and story driven.

Neverwinter nights, Morrowind, the Witcher, Mass Effect , to name a few, are all true RPG's in my eyes.

Drakensang is using the German Das Schwarze Auge ruleset, which is even more complicated than DnD and completely ass-backwards for someone coming from DnD.

Baranga

I find neither of them is the case. the two rule sets aren't more or less complicated than each, you just have to know them. or in game, playing with the leveling/skill/attribute system. and I'm right at home playing Drakensang without feeling any sort of backwardness.

I like BG series more (Drakensang is a well-rounded CRPG no doubt) though (a dnd bias maybe^^"), mainly due to its more intriguing storyline (Bhaal Spawn saga and Irenicus-Bodhi story); also, the arcane implementation in BG2 is simply the best among all CRPGs (arcane mania bias for sure).

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

All the games you listed are role playing games

Because it's not the kind you're looking for doesn't make them any less role playing

Everything from Fallout to Dragon Age to even Warband are RPG's, just different styles

1Lonehawk

Thanks Byshop for your detailed response, and to all who responded. You've all given me some great food for thought and suggestions.

My old comp that I was GOING to play BG on (P4 with an old Gforce 128 meg card in it), the hard drive is fried. LOL. I can't play BG on my present rig because it's just "too" new (long story, but suffice it to say that BG works, just not great, can't get graphics to look and work just right). I'm out of old HDs so I think my old rig is finally going to the great dumpster in the sky. Or maybe I'll just ask around, see if I can find someone with an old HD to give out.

Anyways, I'm thinking of trying out Mass Effect (if I can get it) and maybe some of the others.

I really appreciate all your responses, love the GS community! Thanks all and game on. :D

Neverwinter Nights is the perfect example; the Witcher as well [though less specifically].

Neverwinter Nights is the perfect example; the Witcher as well [though less specifically].

SirMordredX

The difference between P&P roleplay and video game role play, is a computer is limited to the amount of options available. So you are making desicions based on whats available. Thats what I thought was good about Deus Ex, it tried to include everything in terms of desicions. With pen and paper, youre limited by imaginations and dice rolls.

To truley make a comprehensive roleplaying experience you would have to create a game that adapts and literally has no limits.

So im afraid we just have to wait for devs to be hard working enough to put a game in production for many, many, many years. Or have a team of about 600 people working on the same game.

D1zzyCriminal

We could have even better RPGs if two things happened:

1. Developers start coding games in 64-bit (Capcom did, optimizing DMC4 for 64-bit).

2. PC owners all switch over to 64-bit with 6 GB RAM minimum.

Drakensang is an old-school RPG with a lot of customization. Not everyone will like the same RPG, but you can always try one out, see if you like it.

Yes, there is such a thing though rare. The only game to truly immerse me was the first Fallout game, but that was years ago. Some of my favorite pc rpgs are Fallout 1 and 3, (2 feels like the first with an expansion pack) Vampire the Masquerade : Bloodlines, The Witcher, and Oblivion (screw all you morrowind fems, Oblivion is better), and Mass Effect 2 (the first was good, but the sequel was one of those rare gems where it far surpassed the original). As far as PC rpg's you can't go wrong with a list like that.

I never liked Never Winter Nights nor Baldurs Gate, thought the originals and especially the sequels lacked, if you want a good DnD nerd type rpg, go for the Temple of Elemental Evil, otherwise you'll get stuck with lame GTA cutscenes (I like the GTA series for the record), every 30 seconds like you do in NWN 2.

IMO op, you need to look back far beyond Bioware's golden age to some of the starting line-up of RPGs. Have you had a chance to play the original Ultima games (including Ultima Underworld, Worlds of Ultima), SSI's series of games, Might and Magic (before 3DO took it down), and Wizardry? These are selections I always come back to at least every 5 years.

I haven't played an SSI game since the Commodore 64. As much as I enjoyed many of those games, technology has surpassed. I couldn't see myself playing any of those games again, I'll keep the good memories knowing a revist would tarnish them. So, I disagree with you and your 15 years since a game has done it right by you (another post). It is your opinion though, I have experienced SSI C64 and as much as I enjoyed those experiences, I have had equal or better experiences on the PC with newer titles, Fallout is a good example.

Its just too bad that PC rpgs of this day and age lead you by the hand. If you want true rpg experience, you will go back 15+ years.

TRUE PC rpgs to me = the following:

- Wizardry series

- Planscape Torment

- Fallout1

- KOTOR

- Ultima series

- Baldurs Gate 2

- Divien Divinity

- Eye Of The Beholder

- Arx Fatalis

Newer ones? Not many...

- Risen

- The Witcher

- Dragon Age

- Drakensang

To me personally those are great examples of pc rpgs (Dragon Age on consoles I couldnt evne play for more then 2 hours..)

I voted yes, cause there is-BG and SoA. For someone who grown up on Death Knights of Krynn and Menzoberranzan it is very hard to find a good true RPG. I`ve played endless hours of AD&D on pen and paper ages ago and games that using its rules are rare indeed. However do not forget that RPG does not solely means fantasy enviroment. I would be very happy if a game using Shadowrun or Cyberpunk2020 system came out capturing their athmosphere.

I guess they(including AD&D)just not popular any more to devs to make a good game, we live the era of FPS and visuals where critcal thinking and problem solving is not needed after all.

Greyfoo-t

Role playing Defined : to assume the attitudes, actions, and discourse of (another), esp. in a make-believe situation in an effort to understand a differing point of view or social interaction; to experiment with or experience (a situation or viewpoint) by playing a role. That was from dictionary.com

l0ner_1

[QUOTE="D1zzyCriminal"]

The difference between P&P roleplay and video game role play, is a computer is limited to the amount of options available. So you are making desicions based on whats available. Thats what I thought was good about Deus Ex, it tried to include everything in terms of desicions. With pen and paper, youre limited by imaginations and dice rolls.

To truley make a comprehensive roleplaying experience you would have to create a game that adapts and literally has no limits.

So im afraid we just have to wait for devs to be hard working enough to put a game in production for many, many, many years. Or have a team of about 600 people working on the same game.

topsemag55

We could have even better RPGs if two things happened:

1. Developers start coding games in 64-bit (Capcom did, optimizing DMC4 for 64-bit).

2. PC owners all switch over to 64-bit with 6 GB RAM minimum.

Drakensang is an old-school RPG with a lot of customization. Not everyone will like the same RPG, but you can always try one out, see if you like it.

Technical restraints are only part of the problem. It is true how as machines get more powerfull out games have gotten 'better' but only really in terms of graphics, not scope. If you think of older games like Fallout and Baulders Gate, they had far more depth and working on systems of 1/200th the currentspec. Its really down to developer imagination. If you meet a 15ft troll, in youre imagination you can:

-Slash it in the knees with a sword, walk up it and slit the throat.
-Shoot it in the eyes with arrows and snap off the ends
-Set it on fire with some wonderfull spell you have learnt, pick up the ashes and make some kind ofdwarf aphrodisiac.
-Pull funny faces and watched it fall into a trap you laid earlier in rage.
-Give the troll something shiney and run away.

Or anything else

Basically what im saying is, a game doesnt know what youre thinking it has to work with the pre made funcutions it was given, so in a game you will probably only be able to:

-Slash it
-Shoot it
-Cast spells
-Run

Which is not nearly as interesting.

Technically every game is an RPG, As you're in the role of a character or group of characters, EG in Doom you're playing ROLE is the Space marine, In battlefield you're playing the role as a Soldier.

Anyways, I'm thinking of trying out Mass Effect (if I can get it) and maybe some of the others.

1Lonehawk

You may want to re-structure that sentence mate. Trying out some of the others and maybe ME. Mass Effect is an FPS with SOME RPG elements...

EDIT: D1zzyCriminal-a valid point there mate.

TRUE PC rpgs to me = the following:

- Wizardry series

- Planscape Torment

- Fallout1

- KOTOR

- Ultima series

- Baldurs Gate 2

- Divien Divinity

- Eye Of The Beholder

- Arx Fatalis

Newer ones? Not many...

- Risen

- The Witcher

- Dragon Age

- Drakensang

To me personally those are great examples of pc rpgs (Dragon Age on consoles I couldnt evne play for more then 2 hours..)

kozzy1234

Kozzy is my hero.:)