FX-8350 is the way forward...

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#1 deactivated-579f651eab962
Member since 2003 • 5404 Posts
 Article at Eurogamer

ByRichard LeadbetterPublished Saturday, 20 April 2013

The arrival of next-gen consoles could well prove to be a double-edged sword for PC owners used to enjoying the best gameplay experience. On the one hand, it's extremely good news: developers no longer need to create engines for multiple hardware types with little common ground - console and PC development will all be based on x86 computer architecture. By extension, the need to use brute-force processing power to overcome unoptimised PC ports will hopefully become less of an issue, leaving gamers to enjoy the more positive aspects of the platform - upgrading, customising, shaping the experience towards their own requirements.

On the flipside, PlayStation 4 in particular offers a substantial challenge to the PC as the top-end gaming platform - a state of affairs that may surprise many. Sony's new console has often been described as a mid-range gaming PC in terms of its overall technological make-up. Rip apart the various components and the claims have some merit, but with the benefits of a closed box design and a unified memory set-up, the new console has certain qualities that could even give high-end PC rigs a run for their money.

All of which leads us to the point of this article. If you own a PC now, what upgrade paths are available to keep your rig competitive with the next generation of consoles? And if you're planning to buy or build your own gaming PC, what components should you choose to ensure that your hardware provides an excellent experience in line with the capabilities of the next Xbox and PlayStation 4?

Buying new - choosing a platform

Should you upgrade your CPU?

cpu

This Crysis 3 frame-rate comparison gives you some idea of how CPU performance scales across generations, and how Core 2 Duo, Core 2 Quad and its AMD contemporaries are finally running out of steam after a great innings. Generally speaking, CPUs tend to have more longevity than graphics cards.

What is also noticeable is that even modern day dual-core Intel and quad-core AMD chips are starting to look a little weak, something we can attest to when we revisit our £300 Digital Foundry PC, where achieving 60FPS gameplay is becoming an ever-increasing challenge (1080p30 is much, much easier to attain with good quality settings). Now is a good time to invest in CPU technology, as performance on upcoming replacements is taking a back seat in favour of power efficiency - both AMD and Intel are only suggesting 5-15 per cent performance gains in their next line of CPUs.

The Intel Core i5 3570K and the AMD FX-8300 remain the best two choices in terms of power vs. price-point. The Intel chip is faster on most existing games, and it's more power-efficient - as well as being an overclocking monster. However, the AMD chip's eight-core layout is a good match for next-gen console and its prowess in highly threaded applications is already coming to the fore in key titles whose engines are designed with next-gen console partly in mind.

If you're using an older platform, consider motherboard and CPU choice carefully. Overclocking isn't particularly daunting these days but it relies upon buying an unlocked processor, a good quality motherboard and a decent after-market heat sink and fan.

Intel or AMD? Since the arrival of Intel's Core 2 Duo processors, AMD has struggled to remain competitive, remaining in the game by offering its higher-tier parts at very competitive prices. In recent years it has bet the farm on multi-core performance - its latest flagship, the FX-8350, offers eight cores at 4.0GHz with no overclocking restrictions, while its Intel competitor - the Core i5 3570K - offers four cores at 3.4GHz. In a world where single-core performance still dominates, the Intel offering is still considered the better buy - it's certainly more power-efficient and has more overclocking potential.

We approached a number of developers on and off the record - each of whom has helped to ship multi-million-selling, triple-A titles - asking them whether an Intel or AMD processor offers the best way to future-proof a games PC built in the here and now. Bearing in mind the historical dominance Intel has enjoyed, the results are intriguing - all of them opted for the FX-8350 over the current default enthusiast's choice, the Core i5 3570K.

Perhaps it's not entirely surprising - Crytek's Crysis 3 is a forward-looking game in many ways, and as these CPU tests by respected German site PC Games Hardware demonstrate, not only does the FX-8350 outperform the i5, it also offers up an additional, minor margin of extra performance over the much more expensive Core i7 3770K - a processor that's around £100 more expensive than the AMD chip. Only the six-core Intel Core i7 3930K - a £480 processor - beats it comprehensively.

A comparison of Epic's Elemental demo running on PS4 and the year-old version running on a Core i7 PC with GTX 680. We should expect many of the launch next-gen titles to be PC ports, rather than games designed to get the most out of the new console architecture.

It's a surprising state of affairs bearing in mind how modern games development typically works. In recent times, parallelising code over multiple cores has taken priority. It's the best way to get the same code working on Xbox 360 (three cores, six hardware threads), PS3 (six SPUs, one core, two hardware threads) and PC (anything from two to eight cores). Tasks are allocated as "job queues" that are spread out over whatever processing elements are available, and they are executed in parallel. Now, PlayStation 4 may well have eight cores, but they're running at just 1.6GHz. A Core i5 not only has massively superior single-thread performance, but it's also running at over twice the speed. The FX-8350 offers not only the same core count as PS4 but also a similarly impressive boost to clock speed. So in theory, chips from both vendors should easily outperform the next-gen consoles, but AMD has the potential to offer more performance at the same price-point - as Avalanche Studios' Chief Technical Office, Linus Blomberg, tells us.

"I'd go for the FX-8350, for two reasons. Firstly, it's the same hardware vendor as PS4 and there are always some compatibility issues that devs will have to work around (particularly in SIMD coding), potentially leading to an inferior implementation on other systems - not very likely a big problem in practice though," he says.

"Secondly, not every game engine is job-queue based, even though the Avalanche Engine is, some games are designed around an assumption of available hardware threads. The FX-8350 will clearly be much more powerful [than PS4] in raw processing power considering the superior clock speed, but in terms of architecture it can be a benefit to have the same number of cores so that an identical frame layout can be guaranteed."

In the here and now, games that favour AMD like Crysis 3 are the exception and not the rule. Intel is demonstrably the better choice for the current generation of games as pretty much every CPU review over the last several years demonstrates. However, bearing in mind how well established parallelisation is, it's surprising that AMD hasn't enjoyed more success. One source, who chooses to remain anonymous, tells us that the disparate architectures found in the current-gen consoles are partly responsible for this.

"Getting a common game architecture to run across both [Xbox 360 and PS3] is no easy feat and you have to take 'lowest common denominator' sometimes. This can mean that your engine, which is supposed to be 'wide' (ie. runs in parallel across many cores) ends up having bottlenecks where it can only run on a single core for part of the frame," he says.

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#2 deactivated-579f651eab962
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A matter of RAM

ram

Next-gen consoles adopt 8GB of unified memory as a baseline. In contrast, PC operates two distinct pools - system memory (DDR3) and video RAM (typically, GDDR5). Our advice for graphics is to get a card with as much GDDR5 as you can, but system memory also has to be factored in.

Linus Blomberg of Avalanche recommends 8GB of DDR3, while another of our sources believes that 12GB is a safer bet for future-proofing your PC, bearing in mind the overhead required by Windows combined with the fact that graphics data needs to spool from system RAM into the GPU's onboard memory.

1600MHz DDR3 currently offers the best mixture of value and performance. Most motherboards accept four modules - our recommendation would be 2x 4GB to begin with, adding additional modules into the spare slots if RAM does prove to be an issue.

Choosing a graphics card

gpu

If you're constructing a new build PC now and you're looking for a longer term investment, graphics card choice could be crucial. If you plan on out-performing PlayStation 4, remember that the GPU in Sony's new system occupies some kind of midway point between the Radeon HD 7850 and HD 7870 - but with far more GDDR5 RAM available than either of them.

3GB renditions of the HD 7950 and Nvidia's GeForce GTX 660 Ti are available, but at a considerable price premium. 1GB cards - as good as the reviews look in the here and now - may prove to be a false economy even early on in the next-gen era. If you're looking to "go nuclear" and buy a top-end card like the GTX 680 or Radeon HD 7970, those are excellent choices but again, the more GDDR5 you have, the better - 2GB is the baseline here and you should be looking at 4GB or better.

While AMD's CPU design gets the nod from our experts, it's a different kettle of fish in the GPU arena where everything goes through DirectX and where the quality of the drivers is so important. Historically, nVidia cards have offered the best driver support and has embraced enthusiast-pleasing features like advanced anti-aliasing and adaptive v-sync, while AMD has gained many supporters for its keenly priced hardware and the introduction of multi-monitor gaming support.

If you already own a mid-range gaming PC (or better) with a good graphics card and you're happy with its performance on current-gen titles, now is probably not the time to upgrade. Enjoy what you've got and employ a wait-and-see approach to see what gains an upgrade brings you once next-gen console games are actually on sale. It's at that point where we'll begin to see just how much of an impact that extra RAM in the new consoles makes.

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zamolxe

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#3 zamolxe
Member since 2004 • 669 Posts

I wouldn't exchange my 2400 for any AMD processor. Regardless of how many cores and how much brute force they have, games will still be primarily limited by those bottleneck scenarios which depend on only one core and one thread. And in those scenarios even 5 year old intel cpus beat AMD's current ones. The architecture that intel has since Conroe is just better than AMD's. AMD manages to stay competitive (barely) by selling their CPUs and mobo chipsets with much lower profit margins.

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#4 darksusperia
Member since 2004 • 6945 Posts

Regardless of how many cores and how much brute force they have, games will still be primarily limited by those bottleneck scenarios which depend on only one core and one thread. And in those scenarios even 5 year old intel cpus beat AMD's current ones. .

zamolxe
wait till the new consoles launch and we'll see whats up.
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#5 zamolxe
Member since 2004 • 669 Posts

I agree the consoles may change things, but if we're talking of "right now" that's the way I see it. Look at the last graph here:

 

http://techreport.com/review/23750/amd-fx-8350-processor-reviewed/5

 

Would you accept to be limited by your CPU in a game to such an extent? Until AMD manages to close these sorts of gaps, I certainly wouldn't consider them.

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#6 godzillavskong
Member since 2007 • 7904 Posts

I wouldn't exchange my 2400 for any AMD processor. Regardless of how many cores and how much brute force they have, games will still be primarily limited by those bottleneck scenarios which depend on only one core and one thread. And in those scenarios even 5 year old intel cpus beat AMD's current ones. The architecture that intel has since Conroe is just better than AMD's. AMD manages to stay competitive (barely) by selling their CPUs and mobo chipsets with much lower profit margins.

zamolxe
Oh. So what that dev just said is wrong? Stupid devs and their lack of knowledge.
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#7 darksusperia
Member since 2004 • 6945 Posts

I agree the consoles may change things, but if we're talking of "right now" that's the way I see it. Look at the last graph here:

 

http://techreport.com/review/23750/amd-fx-8350-processor-reviewed/5

 

Would you accept to be limited by your CPU in a game to such an extent? Until AMD manages to close these sorts of gaps, I certainly wouldn't consider them.

zamolxe
but the article isn't talking about now. its talking about games being far more threaded after they (consoles) launch and thus amd being more viable performance due to it performing well in multithreaded apps.
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#8 zamolxe
Member since 2004 • 669 Posts

The X360 has 3 cores and 6 threads, and the PS3 can run six or seven threads (as far as I understand, it's a different type of CPU). I don't see much difference in this regard with the new generation. It will still be difficult to split tasks efficiently and there will still be bottlenecks. I don't see how this can possibly change.

For me, the only advantage that AMD could get with these consoles is with those sets of instructions that are specific to AMD processors. These instructions might translate less efficiently on intel CPUs, but even this is just a possibility right now. It might not make any practical difference at all.

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#9 adamosmaki
Member since 2007 • 10718 Posts
The think that worries me with AMD fx cpu's and are making me leaning more towards an i5 is power consumption. They really need to improve that alot . Gonna wait for steamroller and Haswell though to move to a new platform
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#10 buccomatic
Member since 2005 • 1941 Posts
 Article at Eurogamer

ByRichard LeadbetterPublished Saturday, 20 April 2013

The arrival of next-gen consoles could well prove to be a double-edged sword for PC owners used to enjoying the best gameplay experience. On the one hand, it's extremely good news: developers no longer need to create engines for multiple hardware types with little common ground - console and PC development will all be based on x86 computer architecture. By extension, the need to use brute-force processing power to overcome unoptimised PC ports will hopefully become less of an issue, leaving gamers to enjoy the more positive aspects of the platform - upgrading, customising, shaping the experience towards their own requirements.

On the flipside, PlayStation 4 in particular offers a substantial challenge to the PC as the top-end gaming platform - a state of affairs that may surprise many. Sony's new console has often been described as a mid-range gaming PC in terms of its overall technological make-up. Rip apart the various components and the claims have some merit, but with the benefits of a closed box design and a unified memory set-up, the new console has certain qualities that could even give high-end PC rigs a run for their money.

All of which leads us to the point of this article. If you own a PC now, what upgrade paths are available to keep your rig competitive with the next generation of consoles? And if you're planning to buy or build your own gaming PC, what components should you choose to ensure that your hardware provides an excellent experience in line with the capabilities of the next Xbox and PlayStation 4?

Buying new - choosing a platform

Should you upgrade your CPU?

cpu

This Crysis 3 frame-rate comparison gives you some idea of how CPU performance scales across generations, and how Core 2 Duo, Core 2 Quad and its AMD contemporaries are finally running out of steam after a great innings. Generally speaking, CPUs tend to have more longevity than graphics cards.

What is also noticeable is that even modern day dual-core Intel and quad-core AMD chips are starting to look a little weak, something we can attest to when we revisit our £300 Digital Foundry PC, where achieving 60FPS gameplay is becoming an ever-increasing challenge (1080p30 is much, much easier to attain with good quality settings). Now is a good time to invest in CPU technology, as performance on upcoming replacements is taking a back seat in favour of power efficiency - both AMD and Intel are only suggesting 5-15 per cent performance gains in their next line of CPUs.

The Intel Core i5 3570K and the AMD FX-8300 remain the best two choices in terms of power vs. price-point. The Intel chip is faster on most existing games, and it's more power-efficient - as well as being an overclocking monster. However, the AMD chip's eight-core layout is a good match for next-gen console and its prowess in highly threaded applications is already coming to the fore in key titles whose engines are designed with next-gen console partly in mind.

If you're using an older platform, consider motherboard and CPU choice carefully. Overclocking isn't particularly daunting these days but it relies upon buying an unlocked processor, a good quality motherboard and a decent after-market heat sink and fan.

Intel or AMD? Since the arrival of Intel's Core 2 Duo processors, AMD has struggled to remain competitive, remaining in the game by offering its higher-tier parts at very competitive prices. In recent years it has bet the farm on multi-core performance - its latest flagship, the FX-8350, offers eight cores at 4.0GHz with no overclocking restrictions, while its Intel competitor - the Core i5 3570K - offers four cores at 3.4GHz. In a world where single-core performance still dominates, the Intel offering is still considered the better buy - it's certainly more power-efficient and has more overclocking potential.

We approached a number of developers on and off the record - each of whom has helped to ship multi-million-selling, triple-A titles - asking them whether an Intel or AMD processor offers the best way to future-proof a games PC built in the here and now. Bearing in mind the historical dominance Intel has enjoyed, the results are intriguing - all of them opted for the FX-8350 over the current default enthusiast's choice, the Core i5 3570K.

Perhaps it's not entirely surprising - Crytek's Crysis 3 is a forward-looking game in many ways, and as these CPU tests by respected German site PC Games Hardware demonstrate, not only does the FX-8350 outperform the i5, it also offers up an additional, minor margin of extra performance over the much more expensive Core i7 3770K - a processor that's around £100 more expensive than the AMD chip. Only the six-core Intel Core i7 3930K - a £480 processor - beats it comprehensively.

A comparison of Epic's Elemental demo running on PS4 and the year-old version running on a Core i7 PC with GTX 680. We should expect many of the launch next-gen titles to be PC ports, rather than games designed to get the most out of the new console architecture.

It's a surprising state of affairs bearing in mind how modern games development typically works. In recent times, parallelising code over multiple cores has taken priority. It's the best way to get the same code working on Xbox 360 (three cores, six hardware threads), PS3 (six SPUs, one core, two hardware threads) and PC (anything from two to eight cores). Tasks are allocated as "job queues" that are spread out over whatever processing elements are available, and they are executed in parallel. Now, PlayStation 4 may well have eight cores, but they're running at just 1.6GHz. A Core i5 not only has massively superior single-thread performance, but it's also running at over twice the speed. The FX-8350 offers not only the same core count as PS4 but also a similarly impressive boost to clock speed. So in theory, chips from both vendors should easily outperform the next-gen consoles, but AMD has the potential to offer more performance at the same price-point - as Avalanche Studios' Chief Technical Office, Linus Blomberg, tells us.

"I'd go for the FX-8350, for two reasons. Firstly, it's the same hardware vendor as PS4 and there are always some compatibility issues that devs will have to work around (particularly in SIMD coding), potentially leading to an inferior implementation on other systems - not very likely a big problem in practice though," he says.

"Secondly, not every game engine is job-queue based, even though the Avalanche Engine is, some games are designed around an assumption of available hardware threads. The FX-8350 will clearly be much more powerful [than PS4] in raw processing power considering the superior clock speed, but in terms of architecture it can be a benefit to have the same number of cores so that an identical frame layout can be guaranteed."

In the here and now, games that favour AMD like Crysis 3 are the exception and not the rule. Intel is demonstrably the better choice for the current generation of games as pretty much every CPU review over the last several years demonstrates. However, bearing in mind how well established parallelisation is, it's surprising that AMD hasn't enjoyed more success. One source, who chooses to remain anonymous, tells us that the disparate architectures found in the current-gen consoles are partly responsible for this.

"Getting a common game architecture to run across both [Xbox 360 and PS3] is no easy feat and you have to take 'lowest common denominator' sometimes. This can mean that your engine, which is supposed to be 'wide' (ie. runs in parallel across many cores) ends up having bottlenecks where it can only run on a single core for part of the frame," he says.

acanofcoke
all of will become instantly irrelevant when microsoft releases DirectX12. sony won't get it and both xbox720 and ps4 are not upgradable. this is why i stated (a while back on the livefyre forums) that for microsoft to succeed (with the 720) it MUST make the xbox720s gpu upgradable. also the author failed to mention the fact that PC has KB/M support for FPS, RTS and various other types of games that (controller only) consoles cannot support and because of this they are missing out on a huge market. WoW from 2004 - 2013 is a perfect example of this. microsoft tried to get blizzard to release WoW on the xbox360 but blizzard refused (for various reason). IMO the main reason was that MMO's without kb/m support are just a dumbed down version that make the game completely pointless (like diablo III will be on ps4). also if chip makers stop making faster and more efficient CPU's and GPU's, the computer industry, as a whole, will die because heavy coded/GPU and CPU dependent (new) games drive the entire tech industry to make faster hardware (you can see this at work in the tablet and smartphone market as well). the only thing the chip makers can do at this point is to either stop making faster GPU's and CPUs and start making tablets and smartphones faster and shift their business to that market. and that's why we see them doing just that, because there is no future for PC and consoles in the near future. tablets and smartphones will eventually be just as or more powerful than them, will do everything they can do (and more) and will replace them by default and because of consumer demand.