AMD NaVI improvements

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#1 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

AMD's wavefront size reduce from 64 to 32. AMD's old 64 wavefront size is like 2048 bit vector length, which is harder to populated with data.

NVIDIA's warp size is 32 or 16.

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#2 Edited by BassMan (10570 posts) -

Where is the flagship to compete with 2080 Ti? It has been out since September 2018 and still no answer from AMD.

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#3 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@BassMan said:

Where is the flagship to compete with 2080 Ti? It has been out since September 2018 and still no answer from AMD.

NAVI has to exceed 256 bit bus and 64 ROPS limit, and reach 17.1 TFLOPS FP32.

NVIDIA Turing is not fully unlocked until games are designed with DirectX12's DirectML when Tensor cores and Rapid pack Maths features can be used for FP16 shading.

RX 5700 XT is like a maxed out TU106 e.g. RTX 2070.

RTX 2080 and RTX 2070 Super Edition are based on TU104.

Titian RTX and RTX 2080 Ti are based on TU102.

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#4 Posted by BassMan (10570 posts) -

@ronvalencia: you didn't answer the question.

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#5 Posted by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@BassMan said:

@ronvalencia: you didn't answer the question.

I have answered the question to reach RTX 2080 Ti level.

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#6 Posted by rmpumper (669 posts) -

@BassMan said:

Where is the flagship to compete with 2080 Ti? It has been out since September 2018 and still no answer from AMD.

If 5700 is a bit faster than 2060, and the 5700XT is a bit faster than 2070, then the 5800/XT should beat 2080/Ti, but by the time AMD releases those, nvidia might already have their own 3000 series ready.

Really disappointed. The 5700/XT both should be at least $50 cheaper than announced.

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#7 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@rmpumper said:
@BassMan said:

Where is the flagship to compete with 2080 Ti? It has been out since September 2018 and still no answer from AMD.

If 5700 is a bit faster than 2060, and the 5700XT is a bit faster than 2070, then the 5800/XT should beat 2080/Ti, but by the time AMD releases those, nvidia might already have their own 3000 series ready.

Really disappointed. The 5700/XT both should be at least $50 cheaper than announced.

5700 series (NAVI 12) rivals TU106 series GPUs which are RTX 2060 and RTX 2070.

TU106 series ~= 5700 series

TU104 series ~= ???

TU102 series ~= ???

We do not know the next "NAVI 10" is just CU expanded 5700 with 64 ROPS+256bit bus or CU expanded with 96 ROPS + 384 bit bus.

NAVI scaled 60 CU with 96 ROPS and 384 bit bus equates 1.5X improvements over 5700 XT

Applying 1.5X improvements on RTX 2070 would still land on 135%.

RTX 2080 Ti is not even the full TU102 SKU.

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#8 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6486 posts) -

The technical stuff aside AMD has just given us:

5700 Pro:

  • 185w GPU
  • No ray tracing
  • Trades blows with RTX 2060
  • $379

RTX 2060:

  • 160w GPU
  • Ray Tracing
  • Can be found for $330

5700 XT:

  • 220w GPU
  • No ray tracing
  • Beats the 2070 in some games but mostly the same performance
  • $450

RTX 2070

  • 175w GPU
  • Ray tracing
  • Can be found for $480-500

Honestly its the same as the Vega Launch... Plus we have no idea what the availability will be like and what they will actually retail for as the AMD pricing is for their own cheap blower card these cards will probably retail for $50-100 more for even budget after market versions because of their price cut blower plastic fantastic nuclear reactor POS.

I have a feeling they are waiting for Intel and Nvidia is also with their 7nm cards... Intel has the money to put both AMD and Nvidia into the ground in the GPU market.

I look forward to seeing benchmarks where the norm is Nvidia beating them and those cherry picked games are actually smaller because hey its a conference. They didn't even have the nuts to use after burner like Nvidia showing much needed information!

AMD is dodgy as hell and people always give Nvidia a hard time f*** at least they are trying to bring new technology out and AMD can't even match their TDP with 7nm its a joke.

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#9 Posted by Random_Matt (4294 posts) -

Why people assume the majority play at high end is astounding. GTX 2080+ is niche, most pay between $200-$500.

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#10 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6486 posts) -

@Random_Matt said:

Why people assume the majority play at high end is astounding. GTX 2080+ is niche, most pay between $200-$500.

STAHP!... They just announced a MAINSTREAM $750 16 core CPU!

High end markets may be niche but they exist and the people that are demanding them clearly have a use case for them i.e. 3440x1440 panels with 144Hz... You don't buy a $1K monitor and thrown in a RX 590 and Ryzen 1200 into a $20 case with 8GB RAM and 5400RPM HDD we aren't console gamers!

If AMD had a 50 CU GPU that gives performance higher than a RTX 2080 for $549 it would lower prices for high end parts and then the prices would have to be lowered on all lower GPU's thus its win win for every segment you peanut!

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#11 Posted by urbangamez (3500 posts) -

i agree with amd's approach here, given the current attitude is that no one wants to buy a $700 - $1,200 gpu to run ray traced games at low res. the whole industry based on presentations at e3 seem to be in a pause and try to develop game engines that can run ray tracing and other more intensive gaming graphics features at higher resolutions and framerates. also the industry definitely seems to be a moving to make 4K res the standard and im for it.

this navi gpu then, in that context is a place holder, amd still needs to optimize their graphics and cpu cores so that they can get better performance from their hardware, it was good to see them actually get devs and ms to work with them on optimizations. with pci-e 4.0 and 7nm amd has a great foundation, with investor confidence and gamers offering goodwill they have money and a market, they just need to execute in 2020 and 2021.

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#12 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

GCN CU vs NAVI CU difference

NAVI ROPS being connected to L1 and L2 cache (superior).

Vega ROPS being connected to 4 MB L2 cache (better)

X1X ROPS being connected to 2MB render cache (better)

Polaris ROPS being connected to memory controller (worst) with tiny render cache.

Async Compute doesn't have access to Geometry and ROPS while NVIDIA Maxwell/Pascal/Turing has multi-threading access for Geometry and ROPS.

Async Compute path is Sony's Bullsh*t CELL like design.

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#13 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

The technical stuff aside AMD has just given us:

5700 Pro:

  • 185w GPU
  • No ray tracing
  • Trades blows with RTX 2060
  • $379

RTX 2060:

  • 160w GPU
  • Ray Tracing
  • Can be found for $330

5700 XT:

  • 220w GPU
  • No ray tracing
  • Beats the 2070 in some games but mostly the same performance
  • $450

RTX 2070

  • 175w GPU
  • Ray tracing
  • Can be found for $480-500

Honestly its the same as the Vega Launch... Plus we have no idea what the availability will be like and what they will actually retail for as the AMD pricing is for their own cheap blower card these cards will probably retail for $50-100 more for even budget after market versions because of their price cut blower plastic fantastic nuclear reactor POS.

I have a feeling they are waiting for Intel and Nvidia is also with their 7nm cards... Intel has the money to put both AMD and Nvidia into the ground in the GPU market.

I look forward to seeing benchmarks where the norm is Nvidia beating them and those cherry picked games are actually smaller because hey its a conference. They didn't even have the nuts to use after burner like Nvidia showing much needed information!

AMD is dodgy as hell and people always give Nvidia a hard time f*** at least they are trying to bring new technology out and AMD can't even match their TDP with 7nm its a joke.

Intel is govern by incompetent fools e.g. multi-year Pentium IV shows has weakness with the administration.

NVIDIA's administration is not Intel. NVIDIA didn't tolerate GeForce FX and was quickly replaced by GeForce 6.

NVIDIA didn't tolerate GeForce 6/7 and was quickly replaced by GeForce 8, hence hammered ATI on the same GpGPU argument. G80/G92 was the classic and long lived CUDA GPU design.

NVIDIA didn't tolerate Kelper's weakness which lasted less than two years.

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#14 Posted by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@rmpumper said:
@BassMan said:

Where is the flagship to compete with 2080 Ti? It has been out since September 2018 and still no answer from AMD.

If 5700 is a bit faster than 2060, and the 5700XT is a bit faster than 2070, then the 5800/XT should beat 2080/Ti, but by the time AMD releases those, nvidia might already have their own 3000 series ready.

Really disappointed. The 5700/XT both should be at least $50 cheaper than announced.

AMD has avoided Unreal Engine 4 based benchmarks.

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#15 Edited by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6486 posts) -

Anyone interested in Navi in the UK may as well get Vega 56 or Vega 64 which are selling for £279 and £379 at overclockers for aftermarket models. 5700 is meant hinted to hit UK for £379-429 and the 5700 XT is rumoured to hit at £450-529.

Since Navi doesn't really offer anything new the price to performance compared to Vega I say grab them now before stock runs out.

Just a little heads up... UK pricing will be bad and rumoured that aftermarket cards will put Navi XT a lot over RTX 2070 prices which go for £479.

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#16 Edited by GeryGo (12450 posts) -
@BassMan said:

Where is the flagship to compete with 2080 Ti? It has been out since September 2018 and still no answer from AMD.

They're aiming to compete with Nvidia for the 2K gamers - I guess there's thing to it, if you don't have the resources to produce top end GPUs don't waste your resources on that - make better products at something you can afford.

They've introduced 5700XT which costs lower than RTX 2070 and got the same performance, it's nothing special really and I'm still looking forward for reviews to see how much power they'll draw and their temps.

EDIT: someone posted the power draw compered to 2070, 45 more Watt = more heat, that's a no for me it's hot enough in my country - I'm willing to spend another 30-50$ for that.

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#17 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Anyone interested in Navi in the UK may as well get Vega 56 or Vega 64 which are selling for £279 and £379 at overclockers for aftermarket models. 5700 is meant hinted to hit UK for £379-429 and the 5700 XT is rumoured to hit at £450-529.

Since Navi doesn't really offer anything new the price to performance compared to Vega I say grab them now before stock runs out.

Just a little heads up... UK pricing will be bad and rumoured that aftermarket cards will put Navi XT a lot over RTX 2070 prices which go for £479.

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=404,405&sort=price&page=1

For UK,

MSI Air Boost 8G OC (Radeon RX VEGA 56) has £239.47

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA64GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 64) has £355.14

---

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=404,405&sort=price&page=1

For US,

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA56GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 56) has $269.99

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA64GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 64) has $399.99 <------- RX 5700 XT is faster than RX VEGA 64.

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#18 Posted by osan0 (15452 posts) -

any news on enhancements to the other parts of the chip?

the more i look into navi the more i think "hmm....this is really only half the RDNA architecture". a lot of work has gone into the compute unit setup (which is very important of course and should be the priority).

but ROP enhancements, tesselator, TMU, geometry engine etc....the more specialised parts of the chip. they seem to be copy/paste from polaris/vega from my admittedly relatively brief reading. are these due an overhaul also? do they need one?

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#19 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6486 posts) -

@osan0 said:

any news on enhancements to the other parts of the chip?

the more i look into navi the more i think "hmm....this is really only half the RDNA architecture". a lot of work has gone into the compute unit setup (which is very important of course and should be the priority).

but ROP enhancements, tesselator, TMU, geometry engine etc....the more specialised parts of the chip. they seem to be copy/paste from polaris/vega from my admittedly relatively brief reading. are these due an overhaul also? do they need one?

Not really anything worth mentioning.

By the time they release RDNA 2.0 Nvidia will have Samsung's 7nm based GPU's which will absolutely demolish what ever they plan on doing with this GCN based horrible POS high power draw disaster of a architecture next year.

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#20 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6486 posts) -

@ronvalencia said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Anyone interested in Navi in the UK may as well get Vega 56 or Vega 64 which are selling for £279 and £379 at overclockers for aftermarket models. 5700 is meant hinted to hit UK for £379-429 and the 5700 XT is rumoured to hit at £450-529.

Since Navi doesn't really offer anything new the price to performance compared to Vega I say grab them now before stock runs out.

Just a little heads up... UK pricing will be bad and rumoured that aftermarket cards will put Navi XT a lot over RTX 2070 prices which go for £479.

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=404,405&sort=price&page=1

For UK,

MSI Air Boost 8G OC (Radeon RX VEGA 56) has £239.47

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA64GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 64) has £355.14

---

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=404,405&sort=price&page=1

For US,

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA56GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 56) has $269.99

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA64GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 64) has $399.99 <------- RX 5700 XT is faster than RX VEGA 64.

Faster yes but by 15%... Not worth the extra $150 over a 64. Right now if you are AMD fan Navi is not going to worth it especially since its not offering any new features that justify that price.

I am tempted to grab a RX 56 Pulse just to re-sell it when the prices go up after Navi's launch, how can they justify a £379 GPU when they RX 56 can be had for £120 less for 10-15% less performance.

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#21 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:
@ronvalencia said:
@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Anyone interested in Navi in the UK may as well get Vega 56 or Vega 64 which are selling for £279 and £379 at overclockers for aftermarket models. 5700 is meant hinted to hit UK for £379-429 and the 5700 XT is rumoured to hit at £450-529.

Since Navi doesn't really offer anything new the price to performance compared to Vega I say grab them now before stock runs out.

Just a little heads up... UK pricing will be bad and rumoured that aftermarket cards will put Navi XT a lot over RTX 2070 prices which go for £479.

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=404,405&sort=price&page=1

For UK,

MSI Air Boost 8G OC (Radeon RX VEGA 56) has £239.47

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA64GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 64) has £355.14

---

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#c=404,405&sort=price&page=1

For US,

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA56GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 56) has $269.99

Gigabyte GV-RXVEGA64GAMING OC-8GD (Radeon RX VEGA 64) has $399.99 <------- RX 5700 XT is faster than RX VEGA 64.

Faster yes but by 15%... Not worth the extra $150 over a 64. Right now if you are AMD fan Navi is not going to worth it especially since its not offering any new features that justify that price.

I am tempted to grab a RX 56 Pulse just to re-sell it when the prices go up after Navi's launch, how can they justify a £379 GPU when they RX 56 can be had for £120 less for 10-15% less performance.

Watch AMD dumps GCN like Northern Islands (VILW4) when NAVI's wave32 is different from GCN's wave64.

When NAVI arrives for PC mobile APUs and VII replacement, it's the end for GCN's wave64.

Current gen game console development may keep GCN related wave64 optimizations alive for a few more years.

If I'm AMD fan, I'll avoid GCN wave64.

NAVI's wave32 can run on GCN's wave64 with half of it's wavefront populated.

NAVI's two wave32 can emulate GCN's wave64.

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#22 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@osan0 said:

any news on enhancements to the other parts of the chip?

the more i look into navi the more i think "hmm....this is really only half the RDNA architecture". a lot of work has gone into the compute unit setup (which is very important of course and should be the priority).

but ROP enhancements, tesselator, TMU, geometry engine etc....the more specialised parts of the chip. they seem to be copy/paste from polaris/vega from my admittedly relatively brief reading. are these due an overhaul also? do they need one?

Polaris RBs(ROPS) has noaccess to L2 cache

Vega RBs (ROPS) has access to L2 cache

Xbox Scorpio's RBs (ROPS) has 2MB render cache as a workaround for Polaris IP RB limitations.

NAVI has DCC for the entire raster path which is from geometry to GDDR6. Polaris/Vega's DCC has limitations.

Sony's influence with Async Compute without direct connection to Geometry/Raster/RB accelerated hardware was stupid i.e. the CELL mentality.

VS

https://developer.nvidia.com/dx12-dos-and-donts

On DX11 the driver does farm off asynchronous tasks to driver worker threads where possible

NVIDIA's difference with it's asynchronous tasks when multi-threads are the same types i.e. access to Geometry/Raster/RB accelerated hardware. This hardware enables DX11 MT.

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#23 Edited by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6486 posts) -

Anyone else hear the news that Navi's coolers have RX 690 on them?... Looks like these cards where going to be Polaris replacements but AMD had a change of heart and instead just undercut Nvidia only slightly so they changed the name because RX series is meant to be mainstream.

AMD is slowly looking worse than Nvidia when it comes to their GPU's...

  • 7nm but draws more power than Nvidia?
  • No ray tracing but costs the same?

These things are DOA.

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#24 Posted by BassMan (10570 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf: Hard to get excited for Radeon these days. Everything they put out is a letdown. I think the RX 480 was the last GPU that got people somewhat excited due to bang for your buck, but then Nvidia countered it with GTX 1060.

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#25 Posted by Grey_Eyed_Elf (6486 posts) -

@BassMan:

I know... Its just their tactics are so see thru the industry media is just giving them a pass, how can they pretend to care and be relevant and show gameplay with a frame rate counter but no other information like clocks?... Something is fishy about this GPU launch.

Also the fact that both CEO's are related, they should be investigated for price fixing.

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#26 Edited by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

@Grey_Eyed_Elf said:

Anyone else hear the news that Navi's coolers have RX 690 on them?... Looks like these cards where going to be Polaris replacements but AMD had a change of heart and instead just undercut Nvidia only slightly so they changed the name because RX series is meant to be mainstream.

AMD is slowly looking worse than Nvidia when it comes to their GPU's...

  • 7nm but draws more power than Nvidia?
  • No ray tracing but costs the same?

These things are DOA.

TSMC's 7nm is slightly worst than Intel's 10 nm.

"NAVI 10" competes against TU106 just as Polaris 10/20 competes against GP106.

NAVI 10 has 10.3 billion transistors.

TU106 has 10.8 billion transistors.

For 10 billion transistor class ASIC design, "NAVI 10" lacks Tensor cores and RT cores when compared to TU106.

Turing's Tensor cores and Rapid Pack Maths features to be "weaponized" by Direct3D12's DirectML.

AMD's Vega/NAVI Rapid Pack Maths to be enabled by Direct3D12's DirectML.

RX 5700 XT has up to 9.75 TFLOPS wave32 shared with INT32 workloads.

RTX 2070 has split 8.7 TFLOPS wave32 and 8.7 TIOPS wave32 with stealth boost mode 1.9Ghz

Both Turing SM and NAVI CU has 64 stream floating point processors with dual wave32 processing.

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#27 Posted by ronvalencia (28203 posts) -

https://videocardz.com/newz/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt-and-rx-5700-review-leaks-out

3rd party leak gaming benchmarks for RX 5700 XT