Your opinion on this particular aspect of homosexuality

  • 52 results
  • 1
  • 2

This topic is locked from further discussion.

Avatar image for korvus
#1 Edited by korvus (10715 posts) -

TL;DR: Since people seem to only be reading the first few sentences I'll summarize. What part does the "people are born gay" argument play in discussing the acceptance of homosexuality?This is NOT a discussion of whether people are born gay or not

OT has had plenty of threads about homosexuality lately, and reading them got me wondering...

A lot of people still seem to refuse to accept homosexuality and gay rights...your God hates them, you hate them, they're unnatural, etc. I'm surprised that this is still a thing but whatever, I'm not going to argue. I don't agree but I understand where you come from. As long as you're not openly hostile to gay people I don't care.

Then you have also quite a few people who are on the "Love whoever you want, it's none of my business" boat (me included). In my opinion, this group is also self-explanatory.

But the group that confuses me is the "Being gay is ok...They can't help it, they're born that way"...I don't get this...it sounds like they're saying "I know my kid hit your kid but he has a mental disability, so he doesn't know any better" like somehow being born gay means they are still doing something wrong but it's out of their control. Is being gay ok because they just can't do relationships properly?

So my question is: Who cares if people are born gay or not? Why is this such a point in deciding whether being gay "is ok"? So if you're born gay it's fine but if you somehow choose it, then it's not? To me, defending gay rights by saying "they're born that way" is no help at all. If it's ok for a man to love a man or a woman to love a woman, then it's ok whether it's a choice or not. If I were bisexual and chose to spend my life with a man it would be wrong because I could have chosen to do it "the right way"?

I think the "being born gay" should be scratched out of the discussion. To me people have the right to be who they want to be and do whatever they want to do to whomever they want to do it to, as long as both parties (or all parties, I don't care =P) involved consent to it. You were born gay and you are in a happy same sex relationship? I'm glad you're happy. You could have gone either way and chose to be in a happy same sex relationship? I'm glad you're happy. Makes no difference if there was a choice or not.

What say you OT? Does it matter whether people are born gay?

Avatar image for toast_burner
#2 Posted by toast_burner (24741 posts) -

Does anyone say being gay is ok because they are born that way? usually it's said as a response to idiots who think gays should simply stop being gay.

Avatar image for branketra
#3 Edited by BranKetra (51726 posts) -

Everything and everyone matters. All life deserves respect. We have great power to influence and directly affect everything in our world. With that comes great responsibility which we could be more aware of.

Avatar image for thehig1
#4 Edited by thehig1 (6213 posts) -

You kind of are born gay, obvoiusly when your born and while your young yoymu dont thonk about sex and sexuality, but its not a choice.

You dont choose if your gay or not.

Even other mammas have a percentage that are gay.

Goats for example.

Avatar image for korvus
#5 Edited by korvus (10715 posts) -

@toast_burner: Even so. I can stop being married but that doesn't mean I want to. Even if everybody could stop being gay today why should they? That's my point. We shouldn't tell those people that people can't stop being gay, we should tell them that they have the right to be so regardless of it being a choice.

@BranKetra: Shit man, you're like a fortune cookie =P It's 4:30 in the morning and my brain is half dead so please speak clearly XD What is there to gain by discussing if being gay is or isn't a choice?

@thehig1: Ok, but my question was not whether people are born gay. My question was, why does it matter if that is so?

Avatar image for toast_burner
#6 Posted by toast_burner (24741 posts) -

@korvus said:

@toast_burner: Even so. I can stop being married but that doesn't mean I want to. Even if everybody could stop being gay today why should they? That's my point. We shouldn't tell those people that people can't stop being gay, we should tell them that they have the right to be so regardless of it being a choice.

@BranKetra: Shit man, you're like a fortune cookie =P It's 4:30 in the morning and my brain is half dead so please speak clearly XD What is there to gain by discussing if being gay is or isn't a choice?

@thehig1: Ok, but my question was not whether people are born gay. My question was, why does it matter if that is so?

Like I said, the born this way argument isn't used as a reason why gays should be accepted. Gays should be accepted because nobody can provide a single reason why they shouldn't be.

Avatar image for branketra
#7 Posted by BranKetra (51726 posts) -

@korvus: Clarification can be gained through discussion. Opinions and even facts may be unequal in relevance, but at least they can be addressed. I am emphasizing that apathy is worse than hating something.

Avatar image for dave123321
#8 Posted by dave123321 (35333 posts) -

I've felt this way before but think that the others have it right that it's more of a response

Avatar image for chaoscougar1
#9 Posted by chaoscougar1 (37597 posts) -

@thehig1 said:

You kind of are born gay, obvoiusly when your born and while your young yoymu dont thonk about sex and sexuality, but its not a choice.

You dont choose if your gay or not.

Even other mammas have a percentage that are gay.

Goats for example.

What was that?

Avatar image for lamprey263
#10 Edited by lamprey263 (34511 posts) -

I don't buy into the "born that way" argument, as I think peoples sexuality can be shaped and molded by their social experiences and other environmental factors during their upbringing and sexual development. I think "born that way" has been the position homosexuality proponents have been backed into considering that opposition to homosexuality asserts it's a choice, or a disease or condition that can be corrected through prayer. Now, I'm also not saying genetics can't play a factor, but I think there's more to shaping peoples sexuality beyond that. I mean, just take prison as an example, I'm sure many straight as an arrow males go in straight but end up taking male companionship due to lack of other options.

I've known some straight guys though who were open minded to dabble in gay sex just to experiment. My gay friends have had straight men initiate gay sex with them before. Next day they go back to being as straight as they ever been. Even my gay friends have had sex with women rather regrettably but had it nonetheless. "Born that way"? Who cares.

Avatar image for MrGeezer
#11 Posted by MrGeezer (59160 posts) -

@dave123321 said:

I've felt this way before but think that the others have it right that it's more of a response

It's a response, but is it the RIGHT response?

I've seen countless debates where some idiot said that being gay was a choice, and then people wasted way too much time trying to prove that it's not a choice. Is that really the most effective point to try to make, when it ultimately doesn't matter anyway? Why is the kneejerk reaction almost always to say, "being gay isn't a choice"? Wouldn't it be preferable to respond by stating that whether or not it's a choice is completely irrelevant?

Avatar image for Jacanuk
#12 Edited by Jacanuk (12082 posts) -

@toast_burner said:

Does anyone say being gay is ok because they are born that way? usually it's said as a response to idiots who think gays should simply stop being gay.

Ehmm, yes thats what SJW´s and the LGBT community always say. Particular to guilt people into accepting them, because its a lot easier to demand acceptance when its not their "fault"

Avatar image for lightleggy
#13 Posted by lightleggy (16090 posts) -

I don't think anyone who uses the "People are born gay" argument is trying to compare them to somebody who was born with mental retardation. It's more like "you can't simply stop being gay" or "you can't simply decide 1 day that you'll like men".

Avatar image for SaintLeonidas
#14 Posted by SaintLeonidas (26735 posts) -

Well, when insecure losers try to use some stupid excuses or attacks directed towards homosexuals by saying "It is a choice! You are doing this on purpose! You are sinners, you should change!" etc., what do you expect people to say? It is a response that only ever became a defensive stance due to the morons on the opposing side. Most gays would rather it not be an issue, that they just be accepted for who they are and that it shouldn't matter how they "became" gay, they should still be granted the same rights as anyone else. But to homophobes, how someone becomes gay is clearly an issue and so the idea of being born gay will always be a topic of discussion.

Avatar image for trav_have
#15 Edited by trav_have (5707 posts) -

Really, there shouldn't be any concern on who people are with. It really doesn't matter if it has nothing to do with you.

If I was against homosexuality which I'm not, is it going to impact my life in any way? No.

Avatar image for toast_burner
#16 Edited by toast_burner (24741 posts) -

@Jacanuk said:

@toast_burner said:

Does anyone say being gay is ok because they are born that way? usually it's said as a response to idiots who think gays should simply stop being gay.

Ehmm, yes thats what SJW´s and the LGBT community always say. Particular to guilt people into accepting them, because its a lot easier to demand acceptance when its not their "fault"

Lets be honest. You are not a reliable person to say what it is the LGBT community says. You live in your own little delusional bubble.

Avatar image for xdude85
#17 Posted by xdude85 (6331 posts) -

Homosexuals are gay.

Avatar image for johnd13
#18 Posted by johnd13 (9290 posts) -

I don't care if they were born gay or made a choice. Other people's sexual preferences are none of my business.

Avatar image for toast_burner
#19 Posted by toast_burner (24741 posts) -

@johnd13 said:

I don't care if they were born gay or made a choice. Other people's sexual preferences are none of my business.

But what if they recruit your son and then start having sex with your dog?! Can't you see that this is totally a real situation that definitely happens?!?!?!

Avatar image for korvus
#20 Edited by korvus (10715 posts) -

@MrGeezer said:

It's a response, but is it the RIGHT response?

I've seen countless debates where some idiot said that being gay was a choice, and then people wasted way too much time trying to prove that it's not a choice. Is that really the most effective point to try to make, when it ultimately doesn't matter anyway? Why is the kneejerk reaction almost always to say, "being gay isn't a choice"? Wouldn't it be preferable to respond by stating that whether or not it's a choice is completely irrelevant?

That's my view as well. And thank you for answering the actual question instead of doing like most of the other people. Maybe I didn't make it clear what the question was =P

@SaintLeonidas said:

Well, when insecure losers try to use some stupid excuses or attacks directed towards homosexuals by saying "It is a choice! You are doing this on purpose! You are sinners, you should change!" etc., what do you expect people to say? It is a response that only ever became a defensive stance due to the morons on the opposing side. Most gays would rather it not be an issue, that they just be accepted for who they are and that it shouldn't matter how they "became" gay, they should still be granted the same rights as anyone else. But to homophobes, how someone becomes gay is clearly an issue and so the idea of being born gay will always be a topic of discussion.

What do I expect people to say? Maybe "Let them do what they want with their lives. If they don't care whether it's a sin or not, why should you"? Plus, how many gay haters have people managed to "convert" with the "they're born that way" argument? To me, trying to make people realise they shouldn't need to change is a lot better than telling them that they don't change because they can't. I think it speaks better to the point that being gay isn't "bad" or "wrong"

@BranKetra: And what, in your opinion, is there to gain by centering a discussion on whether being gay is a choice or not?

Avatar image for johnd13
#21 Edited by johnd13 (9290 posts) -

@toast_burner said:

@johnd13 said:

I don't care if they were born gay or made a choice. Other people's sexual preferences are none of my business.

But what if they recruit your son and then start having sex with your dog?! Can't you see that this is totally a real situation that definitely happens?!?!?!

Honestly, I pity people that are so narrow-minded that they make all sorts of accusations towards homosexuals. Condemning them to an after-life in hell like many religious folk do etc. I can only laugh at them. They're not even worth conversing with, let alone attempting to open their eyes to reality. And this comes from someone who believes in God.

Avatar image for Master_Live
#22 Posted by Master_Live (18817 posts) -

@BranKetra said:

Everything and everyone matters.

Is that so.

@lamprey263 said:

I mean, just take prison as an example, I'm sure many straight as an arrow males go in straight but end up taking male companionship due to lack of other options.

But it is out of necessity, when they come out prison most don't continue to have sexual relationships with persons of the same sex when female partners are readily available.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, the gayness rises. Plus lesbian scissors rules.

Loading Video...

Avatar image for indzman
#23 Posted by indzman (27735 posts) -

@johnd13 said:

I don't care if they were born gay or made a choice. Other people's sexual preferences are none of my business.

Avatar image for thehig1
#24 Posted by thehig1 (6213 posts) -

@chaoscougar1 said:

@thehig1 said:

You kind of are born gay, obviously when your born and while your young you don't think about sex and sexuality, but its not a choice.

You don't choose if your gay or not.

Even other mammals have a percentage that are gay.

Goats for example.

What was that?

God dammit I hate posting using my phone sometimes, it makes me right gibberish and I don't realize it. I cleaned up my post a bit in quote box.

Avatar image for SaintLeonidas
#25 Edited by SaintLeonidas (26735 posts) -

@korvus said:

@SaintLeonidas said:

Well, when insecure losers try to use some stupid excuses or attacks directed towards homosexuals by saying "It is a choice! You are doing this on purpose! You are sinners, you should change!" etc., what do you expect people to say? It is a response that only ever became a defensive stance due to the morons on the opposing side. Most gays would rather it not be an issue, that they just be accepted for who they are and that it shouldn't matter how they "became" gay, they should still be granted the same rights as anyone else. But to homophobes, how someone becomes gay is clearly an issue and so the idea of being born gay will always be a topic of discussion.

What do I expect people to say? Maybe "Let them do what they want with their lives. If they don't care whether it's a sin or not, why should you"?

Um...they DO say this. All the time. You seem to be taking a very narrow view on this subject, as if "born this way" is the ONLY thing people say in defense of homosexuality. Well...it isn't. It is simply ONE of many, and only ever brought up when people who oppose gay marriage or homosexuality bring up certain points such as the ones I mentioned.

This is like saying that when talking about abortion, women should ONLY ever use the defense "It is my body" instead of bringing up the point of conception vs. when "conscious" life begins if the opposition brings up arguments against abortion having to do with taking a life.

Neither of these topics are black and white, there are many points that are debated. You are singling out ONE, and saying it should be replaced with just ANOTHER point that is also already discussed.

Avatar image for GreySeal9
#26 Posted by GreySeal9 (28247 posts) -

@korvus said:

@BranKetra: Shit man, you're like a fortune cookie

lol

Avatar image for korvus
#27 Edited by korvus (10715 posts) -

@SaintLeonidas said:

Um...they DO say this. All the time. You seem to be taking a very narrow view on this subject, as if "born this way" is the ONLY thing people say in defense of homosexuality. Well...it isn't. It is simply ONE of many, and only ever brought up when people who oppose gay marriage or homosexuality bring up certain points such as the ones I mentioned.

This is like saying that when talking about abortion, women should ONLY ever use the defense "It is my body" instead of bringing up the point of conception vs. when "conscious" life begins if the opposition brings up arguments against abortion having to do with taking a life.

Neither of these topics are black and white, there are many points that are debated. You are singling out ONE, and saying it should be replaced with just ANOTHER point that is also already discussed.

I thought it was apparent enough by the OP that I am only focusing on that one aspect of the discussion. That doesn't mean there aren't other aspects to be discussed, only that I was curious about this specific one...

Also, there are people who only have that one argument, and I am referring to those in particular; if someone else uses other arguments then I am obviously not referring to them. I don't see how this is a hard concept to grasp.

@thehig1: Ok, that sounds less drunk XD

Avatar image for bforrester420
#28 Posted by bforrester420 (3480 posts) -

Why should you not use the "born that way" argument when it has been pretty strongly linked to heredity and epigenetics? I wasn't born with gray hair, but I started going gray when I was 15 because that gene had not expressed itself until I was that age. Human sexuality doesn't express itself until you reach sexual maturity, so why wouldn't the "gay gene" express itself until you reach sexual maturity?

Avatar image for korvus
#29 Posted by korvus (10715 posts) -

@bforrester420: What I said what that I don't think the "born that way" argument is relevant in regards to accepting homosexuality; it has nothing to do with the validity of the argument itself.

Avatar image for bforrester420
#30 Edited by bforrester420 (3480 posts) -

@korvus said:

@bforrester420: What I said what that I don't think the "born that way" argument is relevant in regards to accepting homosexuality; it has nothing to do with the validity of the argument itself.

If it means anything to you, I'm in both the "they're born that way" and the "I don't care who two consenting adults love" camps. I simply believe there are natural factors at play that either predetermine, or very strongly influence, one's sexual orientation.

Personally, I don't care what any adult does, so long as it doesn't directly or indirectly victimize others.

Avatar image for LordQuorthon
#31 Posted by LordQuorthon (5706 posts) -

They are born that way the same way some people are born left-handed.

Avatar image for SaintLeonidas
#32 Posted by SaintLeonidas (26735 posts) -

@korvus said:

@SaintLeonidas said:

Um...they DO say this. All the time. You seem to be taking a very narrow view on this subject, as if "born this way" is the ONLY thing people say in defense of homosexuality. Well...it isn't. It is simply ONE of many, and only ever brought up when people who oppose gay marriage or homosexuality bring up certain points such as the ones I mentioned.

This is like saying that when talking about abortion, women should ONLY ever use the defense "It is my body" instead of bringing up the point of conception vs. when "conscious" life begins if the opposition brings up arguments against abortion having to do with taking a life.

Neither of these topics are black and white, there are many points that are debated. You are singling out ONE, and saying it should be replaced with just ANOTHER point that is also already discussed.

Also, there are people who only have that one argument, and I am referring to those in particular; if someone else uses other arguments then I am obviously not referring to them. I don't see how this is a hard concept to grasp.

I guess I just have no idea what the point of this thread is then - unless it is to simply say "Hey, those very few people whose main point of discussion about ____ is A, they should really also start discussing B, C, etc." which can be said about pretty much every topic, ever. I say "very few" because practically no one only uses one point. There may be some vocal people who use it as one of their main points of discussion to counter those who think it is a choice but it isn't like they don't also understand it shouldn't matter, and they should be free to do what they wish, choice or not. Plus, considering how those who oppose things such as gay marriage use the idea of 'choice' so often, it only makes sense that there would be people who would frequently respond that they are 'born that way' when the topic comes up. THAT is a concept that should not be hard to grasp.

Avatar image for korvus
#33 Posted by korvus (10715 posts) -

@SaintLeonidas: They are not that few in my experience, otherwise I wouldn't have made this thread =) I know plenty of people who accept homosexuality because it's not a choice, therefore there's nothing that can be done about it. This thread was aimed at trying to figure out why some people feel that homosexuality is perfectly ok when you don't have a choice, but something that would be wrong is it were a choice. Even in these forums there are people who say so. Just yesterday or 2 days ago someone said that there's this whole group of people who believe that "true gays" (the ones who are born gay) are ok, but those who could be normal but choose to be gay (I'm thinking bisexual people, perhaps?) should be punished for their sins...

@bforrester420: And I'm not arguing that. Like I mentioned in another thread I don't remember ever sitting down and deciding whether I liked boys or girls...it was just there so I have no reason to think it's a choice. My point was only that using EXCLUSIVELY the "It's not a choice" argument when arguing that people should be accepting of homosexuality is pointless. Using @LordQuorthon comment as an example "They are born that way the same way some people are born left-handed.". When I was in school, my teacher didn't want to let me write with my left hand, and me arguing that I was born that way would have not changed her mind, but when I asked her what the disadvantages were on writing with my left hand she couldn't really come up with a good argument so it was never a problem again.

Avatar image for Jacanuk
#34 Posted by Jacanuk (12082 posts) -

@toast_burner said:

@Jacanuk said:

@toast_burner said:

Does anyone say being gay is ok because they are born that way? usually it's said as a response to idiots who think gays should simply stop being gay.

Ehmm, yes thats what SJW´s and the LGBT community always say. Particular to guilt people into accepting them, because its a lot easier to demand acceptance when its not their "fault"

Lets be honest. You are not a reliable person to say what it is the LGBT community says. You live in your own little delusional bubble.

Eh? was that to be a insult? because that was pretty weak. But hey as long as im not you and think that sexuality overrules everything else, im good.

Avatar image for MuD3
#37 Edited by MuD3 (2075 posts) -

I don't know... if a loved one hated who I was and refused to accept that it is actually who I am and not something I chose to be, I would probably try to convince them that it's not a choice, it's just me... It may not be a great argument for gay rights, but I think it's more so people just trying to convince others that this is who they are and less about moving gay rights forward.

If that made any sense at all...

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#38 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@korvus: There have been studies that suggest that it's in the dna itself and you're just born that way. So it's not a choice, animals are gay aswell

Avatar image for korvus
#40 Posted by korvus (10715 posts) -

@MuD3 said:

I don't know... if a loved one hated who I was and refused to accept that it is actually who I am and not something I chose to be, I would probably try to convince them that it's not a choice, it's just me... It may not be a great argument for gay rights, but I think it's more so people just trying to convince others that this is who they are and less about moving gay rights forward.

If that made any sense at all...

Thank you for reading the OP before answering...wish more people did that...

As for your reply, it makes sense...I guess at a point you get so desperate to be left alone you're less concerned with gay rights in general and focused more on stopping people from attacking you.

Avatar image for branketra
#41 Posted by BranKetra (51726 posts) -

@korvus: To reiterate, a mutual understanding can be gained. As knowledge increases, society improves.

@Master_Live said:

@BranKetra said:

Everything and everyone matters.

Is that so.

It is.

Avatar image for GreySeal9
#42 Edited by GreySeal9 (28247 posts) -

ITT: BranKetra is using a lot of words to say a lot of nothing.

Avatar image for GreySeal9
#43 Posted by GreySeal9 (28247 posts) -

I know you're talking about the "born that way" line of logic in terms of the general dialogue on homosexuality, when actual gays say they were born that way, I think it's a honest expression of how they view their own sexuality.

Avatar image for StrifeDelivery
#44 Posted by StrifeDelivery (1901 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:

ITT: BranKetra is using a lot of words to say a lot of nothing.

And here I thought I was the only one.

Avatar image for Riverwolf007
#45 Posted by Riverwolf007 (26023 posts) -

hey lets have a conversation about something and then not mention the biology and science behind the reasons it exists.

lol, welcome to every internet conversation ever.

Avatar image for always_explicit
#46 Posted by always_explicit (3379 posts) -

@Jacanuk said:

@toast_burner said:

Does anyone say being gay is ok because they are born that way? usually it's said as a response to idiots who think gays should simply stop being gay.

Ehmm, yes thats what SJW´s and the LGBT community always say. Particular to guilt people into accepting them, because its a lot easier to demand acceptance when its not their "fault"

I dont think the gay community is guilty of trying to guilt people into accepting them. I think its pretty criminal that being gay is still an issue. Gay people shouldnt have to justify being gay any more than a straight person should need to justify being straight.

My argument to those who hate it for religious reasons is simply to let god do the judging.

Avatar image for korvus
#47 Posted by korvus (10715 posts) -
@Riverwolf007 said:

hey lets have a conversation about something and then not mention the biology and science behind the reasons it exists.

lol, welcome to every internet conversation ever.

Should the reason why homosexuality exists play a factor in whether it should be accepted?

@always_explicit said:

I dont think the gay community is guilty of trying to guilt people into accepting them. I think its pretty criminal that being gay is still an issue. Gay people shouldnt have to justify being gay any more than a straight person should need to justify being straight.

My argument to those who hate it for religious reasons is simply to let god do the judging.

It's unfortunate that so many people need a reason NOT to be hateful assholes =/

Avatar image for perfect_blue
#48 Posted by Perfect_Blue (30068 posts) -

@GreySeal9 said:

ITT: BranKetra is using a lot of words to say a lot of nothing.

That's him in every thread ever. Textbook example of a pseudo-intellectual.

Avatar image for always_explicit
#49 Posted by always_explicit (3379 posts) -

@Riverwolf007 said:

hey lets have a conversation about something and then not mention the biology and science behind the reasons it exists.

lol, welcome to every internet conversation ever.

Why are science and biology relevant to whether or not society should accept certain behaviours?

Avatar image for Riverwolf007
#50 Edited by Riverwolf007 (26023 posts) -

@korvus said:
@Riverwolf007 said:

hey lets have a conversation about something and then not mention the biology and science behind the reasons it exists.

lol, welcome to every internet conversation ever.

Should the reason why homosexuality exists play a factor in whether it should be accepted?

@always_explicit said:

I dont think the gay community is guilty of trying to guilt people into accepting them. I think its pretty criminal that being gay is still an issue. Gay people shouldnt have to justify being gay any more than a straight person should need to justify being straight.

My argument to those who hate it for religious reasons is simply to let god do the judging.

It's unfortunate that so many people need a reason NOT to be hateful assholes =/

it absolutely should.

people are freaking out about it because it is supposed to be "immoral" and "unnatural".

when you remove the immorality argument and place it in the context of the natural range of human behavior that some people are born with it takes away the ability to justify treating other people as second class citizens and deny them human rights over something they can't help.

if immorality is the entire crux of the bigotry and you can show that immorality has nothing to do with it then why ignore that?

nobody should have to hide what they are or live some hetero lie to receive the same basic human rights others enjoy.

you are over here with some pie in the sky accept others no matter what argument which i may personally agree with but that is not the world we live in.