Why is spiritual belief such a valued currency?

I mean it makes perfect since if the goal of religion is to keep you in lock-step and under control (it is). If there was an all-knowing, all-powerful supreme being (there isn't), why would he care whether or not you believed?

The lack of 'evidence' of the existence of a supreme being (there isn't any) is apparently not allowed to be submitted before the court on final judgement. It's pretty much 'you better believe this despite the evidence against it or we'll torture you forever'.

It's hogwash, but most religions do it. And people buy it. In droves.

Why?

@br0kenrabbit: I'm not sure, but I can tell you that once I got away from my religious family and religious ex-wife, my life got 100 times better. Once I stopped pretending 'Jesus take the wheel' and started believing EVERYTHING was up to me, my money started growing and the promotions keep coming.

The people that tell me I need Jesus in my life are just sorry, pathetic weasels. They can keep their bullshit lies.

Lets just say I believe in God in my own damn way and I don't need a book to tell me anymore. I'll be honest, I'm what you call a Sinner. I don't take religion seriously and never will. I stay away from hardcore people who take it seriously for a good reason. I'll tell ya this, people like to believe whatever they are told by the Church to give them hope. If that's your thing, more power to you, just don't bring it to my face.

Hogwash is right. Sad, back in the day this thread would have hundreds of replies by now.

Ooh a spiritual debate. Yep, Spirituality is real (from my experience), but religion has nothing to do with it. It is just there to control the masses.

Spirit is not outside of yourself. It's you. Meditate if your interested to find out. My way of life is to learn to get to know yourself and take responsibility for how you feel, don't give that power to anyone.

I think if Jesus came back today, Christians would just try to crucify him again. He's such a trouble maker.

Nicely said. I don't think anything needs to be taken too seriously esp religion, sex and money.

@br0kenrabbit: Religion and spirituality are entirely different things. A religion is more like a school of thought or a brand of spirituality. While spirituality itself has no real fixed meaning, its definition has changed over time. Nowadays, its largely someone who is mindful and believes in his/her own soul.

Religion is valued by many because it gives 'hope' to many people. Its is also valued because most religions have determined a way of life for humans and these are generally good characteristics. The characteristics of Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism are pretty much the same. Its education really.

The existence of God is an entirely separate thing. The fact that we are here is evidence of 'something.' The fact that there are 109 Elements (known) that makes up everything is surely evidence that there is a higher being, because if there was not then who made those 109 elements? Why isn't there just 'nothingness?'

Stellar synthesis creates all elements from hydrogen fusion up to iron. Supernova synthesis creates all the heavier elements.

Hydrogen atoms have the lowest ground state, which is why when the universe cooled enough for atoms to form, most subatomic particles collapsed into hydrogen atoms. There was a bit of helium production too, but not much by comparison.

Could go on about quark soup and all forces becoming one as you go back chronologically, but the big question is where did all that come from, right? The best evidence suggests that everything that exists is a consequence of the energy released when our universe bumped up against another. This is especially viable in brane theory, a subset of String Theory.

So no, 109 elements are no evidence of a creator at all.

@br0kenrabbit: So let’s focus on the existence of a God/ a creator/ a beginning.

Yes you’re right Stellar Nucleosynthesis enabled the existence of the elements. And we can even go back to what’s called the early universe, then go back to the Big Bang and before that the Quantum Point.

And what came before the Quantum Point to allow the Big Bang?

So the fact that I am here and present and not nothingness means there must be a creator that allowed it all to happen.

Of course we’re not going to get to the bottom of all this. But the fact that I am here means I am not nothingness, if everything has a history, then there must be a beginning and perhaps that beginning is our creator.

@kadin_kai: Throughout history, Humans have applied a 'god' to things they did not understand. Gods have been used to explain storms, earthquakes, stars, planets, etc., until science has shown otherwise.

Now because humans don't understand the origin of the universe, they're writing it off as the work of a divine creator.

The thought that "something doesn't come from nothing, so there must be a creator" is a logical fallacy.

To make sense of bad, a mental placebo. And if nobody is being hurt, don't care.

I find internet users rage at stuff like this more perturbing.

QFT. Militant antitheists have to be the most annoying people on the internet.

the problem with this argument is it begs the question, who created our creator?

Well, according to most of these posts, OP, it isn't.

The only thing your position does is reduce the argument to the following: Who created the creator?

If you can accept that an intelligent creator needs no creator himself, why can you not accept that the universe needs no creator?

Your argument doesn't solve the existential question: what was the beginning? It just emplaces one noun for another.

Because everyone is taking the secondary question and answering it and not the primary. The primary question is as quoted:

Where is anger in my post?

I find people who declare any disagreement as rage as the most perturbing of all.

Lack of vocabulary?

Yup, 'God of the Gaps'. Basically, wherever there are gaps in knowledge, that's where God is. Until we acquire that knowledge, then he packs up and moves.

Also I answered this above. Check out M-Theory.

with the rise of atheism in the us, it'll be interesting to see what happens when we have an openly atheist/agnostic candidate for national office and how they handle not wanting ( or needing ) to pander to religious folks.

It's generally quite transparent (with many not all) that what they are really doing is trying to project themselves to garner self-adulation by targeting what they see as easy-targets than a genuine investment.

Basically, the "Euphoric" meme.

Lots of churches closing up and/or consolidating here in the south. Mostly, only the old people go.

@br0kenrabbit: M Theory is an unproven theory, nor does it explain why we are here rather than nothingness.

If you want to focus on your primary question. Since when did a God or a creator or whatever it is said it cared?

Moreover, you are thinking closer to Christianity. There is no God in Buddhism and many Gods in Taoism, nor is there any torture involved!

M Theory is unproven, but there's at least mathematical evidence for it. As opposed to a God with a Thanos snap.

And I didn't say ALL religions, I specifically chose the word MOST.

This thread has been up for 1 day (at the time of this post) and we haven't hit page 1 yet! Man, I hate to admit it but Hogwash was right all this time. We should've been on page 2 by now.

I've honestly found Atheist to be the most annoying. Most are very sad, miserable people. And I find it funny they are so passionate in believing nothing.

Weird. Most atheists I know are rather happy go-lucky. It's the religious who are all "we are in end times" and "this world has gone to the devil" and "these people and those people and those folks over there are going to hell".

Sounds like a miserable way to live, IMHO.

@br0kenrabbit: Sounds like most the religious people you know are about 80 or older. Not a very accurate portrayal of younger religious folks.

And calling Atheists happy go lucky? Most passionate Atheist far leftist who spend a good portion of their time bitching about " much rights" and people on the right. They also think the world is ending but instead they blame it on climate change and Donald Trump.

Well, climate change is truth. If you don't believe it, you're not educated enough to understand the science.

Most atheists don't give a **** about anything you mentioned. Only the loud ones like PETA, who we pretty much disown anyway.

And while there are more old folk in churches than younger ones, the younger ones are the militants.

Hey, check out this pastor from about 20 miles from my house. Listen to all the love coming from the pulpit:

Yeah, he's nowhere near 80.

@br0kenrabbit: Climate change isn't going to end your life. It is greatly exaggerated on the effect mankind has on it. So yes I understand the science but the left has gone into full panic mode and it's embarrassing. Putting us all on a Soy diet because cow farts are bad for the environment isn't a logical solution. It's leftwing lunacy and supported by liberals who have degrees in journalism and gender studies but now act like that education somehow translates to a doctorate in Geoscience.

That guy made national news for a reason. It's because he fits the stereotype that the left has of white Christians. But in reality hes a pretty rare breed. It looks like you can hear less then 10 people listening to his sermon.

No. Just go on Youtube and search "Knoxville fire and brimstone preaching". That's pretty much the bread-and-butter of Southern Baptists.

There are two problems with your argument on climate change and the first is a problem many on the left have, as well: conflating two different issues. The issues with cows and methane is overblown. However, it takes a fuckton of water and grains (which use water to grow as well) in areas where water resources are a problem. Fossil aquifers do not refill by definition.

Secondly, the problem with climate change is political. There will be wars and mass migrations due to limited resources becoming even more scarce.

So the two issues do conjoin on the use and availability of resources.

We atheists don't believe 'The world is gonna end", that's the religious viewpoint. But we do believe that we're totally fucking up the environment for future generations, because we also believe that there will still be people here in 100, 200, 1000 years.

And some of them will still be saying "We're in the end times! Any day now!"

@br0kenrabbit: Bro I live in TN, and no that is not the average southern Baptist. No you're not going to see them at gay parades but hes on the extreme spectrum. Listen to his audience , he has what 10 people in the crowd? I have a Mega church 20 minutes from my house. They are on national TV with Thousands in the audience and they don't preach anything like that. I also rarely go to Church but I don't feel most the people there are miserable.

I known several Athiest one I use to work with. He would get so pissed off if you even mentioned God. I remember being at work and something happened and I said " oh thank god" and he flipped his shit. He was also a raging leftist male femenist type. I thought he was an anomaly but as time has gone on I see many more like him.

Every side has their doomsday believers but it's foolish to paint everyone with that brush. And it's funny the left talk about all the grain and water we use for cattle but forget we will have to use it regardless because if were not eating meat then were eating plants (which require water to grow) and grain. Which ironically is a Vegan diet which happens to be extremely expensive.

It takes far less grain to feed a person than it does a cow. I love my steak, but that doesn't blind me to the facts that cows are just not good for the environment. Lab-grown meat will be a viable option at some point in the near future, and I think that's where the industry should be heading. If you can grow a heart in the lab, you can grow a tender loin, surely.

And those big megachurches aren't what I'm talking about. They're actually looked down on by most congregations. The churches I'm talking about are those little square brick ones you see on almost every corner, here. Oh, you better believe they preach that fire and brimstone! Especially during revival services. I grew up in them, you can't tell me that they aren't like that.

I don't think your friends problem was being an atheist, I think he was probably just a dick.

Atheists don't shoot people up. We don't bomb clinics. We don't condemn people to hell because of who they happen to love. Can your side say the same?

Troll...

@THUMPTABLE: A perfect example!

@br0kenrabbit: Lol yes that's just what I want.. meat grown in a lab! Because it's not like we have enough processed shit that causes loads of other health issues already. But hey if they can do it without it causing some terrible health risk I'm all for it

What division of christianity were you in? Outside of extreme southern Baptist and Penacostles most are pretty mild.

Lol wow what a blanket statement but unfortunately a little research shows that is in fact not true. Look up Devin Patrick Kelley. An Athiest who committed a mass shooting in a Texas Church. The VT shooter was also also an Athiest.

Also look up Jeffery Dahmer one of the worlds most prolific serial killers who renounced his Christian faith and became an Athiest. Sooo yea their not any better.

Meat is a tissue which will have the same DNA whether grown in a lab or in a cow. All you're doing is replacing the lungs and heart with a pump and oxidation process. What they're having to figure out now is how to get the meat to differentiate into fat and muscle, instead of just muscle, as most of the flavor comes from fat.

Hey I'm not saying no atheist has ever committed mass murder, but one side has a real recurring problem with it. It isn't the left.

Then of course you have issues like Northern Ireland where Christians hate each other. That might flare up again with Brexit. Eastern Europe's problems are Christian/Muslim issues. Whether you like it or not, Muslims are on the conservative right, right alongside you.

I don't just reject Christianity, I reject all religion. It's superstition, for a superstitious people. We no longer have to wonder where lightning and rain come from, or why the Earth quakes, or why The Moon sometimes goes over the Sun. We have REAL explanations for things, now.

Everywhere God was said to be in nature we have found other reasons when we look and gain an understanding of the natural processes involved.

Do we know everything? No, but knowledge is a processes.

We are intelligent animals, we have no souls, there is no afterlife, and no one is coming to rescue us from ourselves. Whatever fate lay in the future for us, is of our own making. That understanding is both humbling and empowering.

Forgot this one. The churches I grew up in where either SBC or "Independent fundamental".

Some religion believes that if you arent tested then u arent loved by almighty and condemmed to hell when u die. I genuinely have no idea how all this works but it sure as hell effective at keeping people believing.

@br0kenrabbit: Nice! I always wanted them to be able to grow Organs so I could live for 300 years.

Lol and no Muslims are not on the right at least not in the west. The left has sided with Islam because most happen to be brown and the left has a hard time making an enemy out of anyone who isn't white because they don't want to be considered racist. Do I need to link you to all the ridiculous leftwing protesters who support Islam eventhough it is an extreme opposite of their core values? Extreme Muslim governments are also socialist which is far left.

Well that's one viewpoint but I'm not prepared to say the same. The fact their are more planets then people and we haven't discovered life on a single one shows how incompetent our science is in the grand scheme of things. To be passionate and so sure that there is no higher power when in reality we know so little baffles me. The belief that our entire existence and purpose is nothing more then a random accident is a pretty miserable way to go about life. Yes I realize their are those who choose to demonize, degrade and hate others because they don't share the same beliefs. But myself and most others don't feel that way.

Yeah buddy, they're on the right. Conservative, check. Religious, check. Anti-equality. Check. Right. You yourself say they are the opposite of the left core values.

What the left DOES believe, however, is that Muslims should have the same rights as you Christians. Hey, remember all that drama over building a Mosque in Murfesboro? Or, you know, the Muslim travel ban? Yeah, that's not right. It's not that we agree with them, it's that OMFG come on and stop being hypocrites.

And dude, do you realize how big the observable universe is? What we have access to study is like 0.000000000001% of what we can see. Its only in my lifetime that we have found extra-solar planets. I clearly remember, and you should as well if I remember your age correctly, when it was "we ASSUME there are other planets around other stars". Remember the Drake equation?

How is that scientific incompetence? Science has revealed more truth to us in the past 150 years than religion has in 2,000. Which do you consider incompetence and on what basis?

As I said above: Knowledge is a process.

Miserable how? Explain my misery, please.

You have a lot of explaining to do if you think we were created in our current form. Why do we rely on other creatures, that don't share our DNA and have their own (mDNA) in order to live (mitochondria)? Seems more like those Amoeba that consume but do not digest photosynthetic cells and then draw sugar from those same cells as they photosynthesize. In fact, some don't even need to eat the cells, they're 'born' with them.

Then you have Human Chromosome 2. Look it up. Also, retroviruses in our DNA, that share the same random sequence as retroviruses in our humanoid ancestors...that they would inhibit the same sequences randomly is an astronomical chance so Occam's Razor says 'Yeah, you're related'.

Comet Impact Synthesis creates all four RNA base pairs, so there you go. RNA doesn't need help replicating, that's just what it does. There's your answer as to 'where' and 'how'. Pretty standard stuff.

@br0kenrabbit: Except the left doesn't believe in equality. They believe in advantages when they see fit. It's amazing that they want to constantly talk about diversity and inclusion yet constantly have exclusive groups that exclude anyone whos not them. The left is a walking hypocrisy. Sorry but Islam is an alley to the left.

And the reason those travel bans were put in place and why their is an uproar in areas like murfreesboro is because their values aren't compatable with ours. Over 35% of Muslims across the world believe that violence is necessary for non believers. This was a Pew Research study. And do I need to tell you what happens to Christians in Islam? The religion is not compatable with western values. A Christian may preach to you about going to hell for being gay but compare that to Islam where they have public executions.

So with 0000.1% of the universe being observable you are ready to say their is no God, that there is no higher power? We have such a rough understanding how things work and even the science doesn't disprove a god. So how did we get here? Just random meaningless bullshit? Superior beings from another planet? God? What is your view? The detailed science of it does not disprove a god.

The left believes in equality, but we also believe there are those who by circumstance of recent history and current attitudes are disadvantaged. Don't believe me? Drive around and look at where people live. Hell, just take Flint, MI and look at all the current policies there that favor rich, white neighborhoods over the black neighborhoods.

If you think we're at a state of racial equality in the USA, you're a fool.

And you want to talk about values not being compatible with a free people, let's talk about Christianity. You don't want gays to marry, and truth be told Christians would like a return to Leviticus and execute them. You don't want women to have sovereignty over their own bodies. You want to regulate sex among heterosexuals, and the display of sexuality. Many Christians still want prayer to be compulsory in schools and public events. And further, you want the right to discriminate against those whose lifestyles you do not agree with.

Very American. Land of the free.

We don't agree with your impulses anymore than we do with Islam. But we also don't give a shit what you believe in private, just keep it out of our lives. Stop trying to enforce your theocracy via law. Get off our dicks.

And you should be old enough to know that you cannot disprove a negative. Go ahead and disprove that my grandmas ghost isn't right behind you. Can't do it. You have to prove in the affirmative. So I ask? Where is God? Show me a repeatable proof. Just one.

Every time religion has called something God, we look and we find physics. Natural physics explained by positive and negative attractions, unfolding chemical reactions and wondrous natural phenomena that under all its wonder comes down to one of the two. It is a binary reality.

I'm working on this part, give me a bit. You asked my view, I'm gonna give it to you.

@br0kenrabbit: Sorry but there is no state of racial inequality formed by current policy. Policy benefits minority's ( blacks more so then any other.) They require lower GPA's to get full scholarships, affirmative action laws that require hiring eventhough they may be less qualified. Over and over again the left points at the results and blames inequality and the system but at some point you need to blame the culture and mentality. Those laws that benefit the rich are not created for whites exclusively and more white people suffer from poverty then anyone in our country. You had a point in 1960 but not in 2020. If you are rich and successful no law is going to hold you back for your race. It's absolute nonsense.

The equal rights for women argument is the best. The left wants abortions whenever they want ( and they want the state to pay for it). The man gets no say and once the child is born has about a 8% chance to ever win a custody battle vs a woman. They want equal representation in pop culture ( it's important to show all those kickass women) but have no desire to be registered for the draft to actually have to fight. Let's not even talk about the shorter life expectancy and higher rates of suicide among males. They want equality with none of the bad shit that comes with it which is typical of the left. That's not equality.

And please don't talk about just keeping it out of our lives and primal impulses. A Christian bakery doesn't want to bake a gay couple a cake and the first thing the left does is try to ruin them. They want to force us to use 50 random bullshit pronouns they made up because all of a sudden the party of science doesn't know the difference between genders. They want to crucify you the moment you say anything that goes against their narrative. The scary thing is I'm talking about the main stream left led by politicians, celebrities and news media. And your talking about some pastor in po dunk TN.

Again chemical reactions and physics do not disprove god. Seeing how a greater power works does not disprove one exist. I can list dozens of examples where science is absolutely fucking clueless.

got in an argument a few years ago w/ a jehovah's witness who came to my door. they were trying to argue that things are terrible now because people are turning away from jesus.

my response was along the lines of "we basically live in the best time to be a human in recorded history and you're trying to tell me things are getting worse?? "

she then proceeded to tell me that jesus would return and destroy the wicked and godless. i responded with "so jesus is going to come to earth and murder millions and you're going to praise that?"

we haven't spoken since.

Entropy.

The succinct explanation of entropy is that heat wants to be evenly distributed. This would work just fine if it weren't for the attractive forces. Once you get clumps in the fabric, well...things start happening.

Before we go further, let's talk a bit about time. Surely you've heard that space and time are the same spacetime. That's...a failure of English and you can only really understand it if you know the math, but basically spacetime is a single 4-dimensional manifold. Movement in any direction affects movement in any other.

Our concept of time relies on being bound within this manifold. Outside such, we can only speculate. But speculate we have. Now, all the below is an attempt to allow you to visualize what math says. It isn't that this was envisioned and then the math worked to it. The math came first.

Imagine if you will two giant, gelatinous sheets of energy both at maximum entropy. Now these sheets are outside our manifold so they have more directions than up, right, left, down, back, forward and time. Eleven dimensions, if current theory is correct. You can't visualize it, not really. But the math...in the math its there. It just falls into place. Just bring known values into order just so, and there it is: Membranes.

But gravity here is strong.

All other forces are open strings...visualize them as vibrating electrical arcs attached between two points. They're attached to the membrane at both ends. But gravity...it's a closed loop. The only time it interacts with the membrane is when it collides with it.

Gravity leaks out of our universe. That's why it's such a weak force, though emanating most strongly from the most massive things.

The Membranes are thusly attracted to one another.

Upon collision, the momentum of two universes at maximum entropy is transferred one into the other. The Big Bang.

All directions expand rapidly as the Membrane itself expands...up, left, right, back, forward...time. It all expands. Massive amounts of energy heat everything up to a soup of energy. No matter exists here, only waves.

All the above is speculative. But it's based on known values allowed to expand into eleven dimensions. Everything below this line in not speculative, but based on observation.

As the universe cooled, electrons and protons began to combine to form the first hydrogen atoms. This event is recorded in the Cosmic Microwave Background, detectable at all points in space.

Hydrogen atoms began to collapse under gravity into the first giant, massive hydrogen stars. These are population III stars, and there are none left. Their existence is inferred by the remnants of what they left behind: all the light elements up to iron, fused in the massive, hot cores, and the heavier elements formed during the moment these massive stars exploded into hypernovas.

This spread these elements out into massive clouds of gasses and small clumps of matter. We do not know if these novas formed planets, as the amounts of heavy elements were scarce. However, the Population II stars that formed from these events are still around, such as the halo above and below our galaxy.

Population II stars are responsible for almost all the heavy elements currently in existence. From their supernovas, population I stars such as our sun formed. With enough heavy elements now to clump under their own gravity, planetary discs began to form around stars regularly. This is an ongoing, observable process.

https://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/planet-forming-disks-revealed-in-stunning-images/

One thing that is special about our planet Earth is that it basically has one-and-a-half cores. This big, iron core allows it to generate a magnetic field that protects the surface from harmful stellar radiation. The current theory, based on analysis of lunar material, is that at some point in the distant past another planet the size of Mars collided with Earth. This is the Theia hypothesis, supported by all known data from both Earth and Lunar observations including gravitational, orbital, distribution of material, density and analysis of the lunar regolith.

The Earth otherwise experienced a pretty normal birth as far as rocky planets go. The Iron Catastrophe event (catastrophe in math just means a sudden change) separated our planet into the layers we observe today. This is when the vast majority of heavy iron migrated to the core. It's this solid/liquid rotating core that generates our magnetic field.

As the Earth settled into a slightly wobbly orbit after the Theia impact, the icy bodies that now make up the Oort Cloud were still on haphazard orbits, and the planets were common impact targets of these bodies. The few of these objects that remain on erratic orbits and have not impacted any of the planets yet we call comets.

Comets brought much water to the planets, but only Earth was able to maintain most of the water due to various reasons. Mercury is just too close to the sun. Though it has a magnetosphere, the amount of solar wind it is exposed to ensures any gas above the surface is quickly blown away. On Venus, water is gaseous due to the temperature, it is then broken up into its component oxygen and hydrogen atoms in the upper atmosphere due to interaction with the solar wind and lack of a strong magnetosphere. And so on.

Comet Impact synthesis is known to create all four RNA base pairs. Bring these base pairs into close proximity, such as an evaporative tidal pool, and they both begin to form long chains and self-replicate. Though, they replicate in reverse, so only every-other replication is an exact copy, baring mutation.

This is the RNA world. Components of this world remain at the sub-cellular level. Transcriptase is the bridge between the RNA and DNA world, as all cellular function still relies on RNA to model proteins.

Lipids have a hydrophobic end and a hydrophilic end. This means they self-arrange into a bi-layer when suspended in water. These lipid bi-layers form the membranes around all cellular organelle, as well as the cell membrane itself.

Again, throw these into the evaporative tidal pool with the replicating RNA chains, and you have a recipe for life.

That we have not found this occurrence on another world yet should not be surprising. Other than our own, we have visited one: The Moon. Of the rocky worlds, we have landed remote vehicles on three: Venus, Mars and Titan.

We have only in the past 20 years began to confirm planets around other stars. Our furthest probes, Voyagers 1 and 2, have only just begun their journey into interstellar space within the past few years, after having launched in 1977.

The distances in space are vast. So vast, that even communication at the speed of light is a process of patience.

As distant as the Voyagers are, were we not to know their exact location and frequency, they would be invisible to us, lost in the static of the Cosmic Microwave Background. That we have not heard other life on the radio is also not surprising.

Knowledge is progressive. What we know today is the basis for what will be understood tomorrow. There isn't a finish line, just a more thorough understanding.

20 years from now, we'll have answers we can only speculate on now. 100 years from now, what we know now will be considered elementary, though required understanding.

Science is beautiful in its ability to explain through process what would otherwise seem almost magical. That we are here, as an exercise in entropy...the universe trying to get back to that maximum equilibrium causes everything to fall together, to happen. Every thought you have, every movement you make, excises chemically stored energy from the universe forever though dissipation of heat and electrical impulses.

That energy will never be recovered. This transition, this line between matter and the dissipation of energy into heat and electrical impulses, is where life resides. It is indeed a wondrous occurrence of physics, but physics it is.

All I hear are excuses to hate and discriminate.

Liberty and justice for all, not just for some. Be a freedom-loving American first, and...whatever else, second. A true patriot!