USA dead last in healthcare

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Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#51 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@vl4d_l3nin said:

and yet they spend the most on it.

Economic liberty!

US is also 36th in the world, so it's not like they have great healthcare compared to other first world countries

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#52 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@ferrari2001 said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@ferrari2001: So Obama should have done nothing? IT does suck, but not it sucks less. What did you expect when all the congress did when he tried getting it passed was to block the **** out of it?

That I didn't claim. Only that the ACA does nothing to fix the problem of healthcare in this country. The European model is clearly superior.

There is no "the problem" of health care in this country. There is a laundry list of problems. The ACA did fix one of the more egregious problems associated with our health care system, that being that there were tens of millions of people in this country who didn't have health insurance, and of those people, tens of thousands of them were dying every year because of that lack of insurance.

Except the fact that the CBO still predicts that by 2023, 30 million people will still be uninsured. It doesn't really fix the problem of people being uninsured. Sure more people are still insured, but 30 million individuals lacking healthcare a decade after the passing of the ACA is still troubling.

Indeed it is. Context is of course important though, and in that same CBO report they predict that roughly another 30 million of the uninsured will have health insurance by 2023. That's an unprecedented accomplishment no matter how you slice it. You were never going to solve the problem that is American health care with one piece of legislation, there's too many special interests involved to ever be able to do that, but Obamacare is the necessary (and monumental) first step in having a more efficient and more ethical health care system.

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#53 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@ferrari2001 said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:
@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:

Europeans don't do the same. Obamacare is a travesty. It isn't healthcare like other industrial nations have.

Switzerland has pretty much the same model.

That may very well be, but Switzerland also has a population of only 8 million people and a average income of almost double that of America. A system like the ACA will obviously work vastly different in a country with such a low number of people and higher wages.

If it's obvious shouldn't be too hard for you to prove it then.

pretty sure the CBO has proven it for me. It works in Switzerland, it isn't working here, at least in the next decade. The last thing I thought would happen would be me of all people defending a single payer system.

Please then point me to the CBO report where it says that due to population size and insufficient wealth that it is impossible for the US to create a universal health care system through the private sector.

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#54 Posted by ferrari2001 (17762 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:
@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:

Europeans don't do the same. Obamacare is a travesty. It isn't healthcare like other industrial nations have.

Switzerland has pretty much the same model.

That may very well be, but Switzerland also has a population of only 8 million people and a average income of almost double that of America. A system like the ACA will obviously work vastly different in a country with such a low number of people and higher wages.

If it's obvious shouldn't be too hard for you to prove it then.

pretty sure the CBO has proven it for me. It works in Switzerland, it isn't working here, at least in the next decade. The last thing I thought would happen would be me of all people defending a single payer system.

Please then point me to the CBO report where it says that due to population size and insufficient wealth that it is impossible for the US to create a universal health care system through the private sector.

I never said it was impossible to create healthcare through the private sector only that the ACA isn't the healthcare option that does that and it hasn't shown to do even remotely what they have in Switzerland.

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#55 Posted by Shmiity (6095 posts) -

At least Obama is trying. Health Care is a huge problem here, and I'm glad he did something to try and stop the problem. Whether it works or not, I'm willing to support it.

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#56 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@ferrari2001 said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:
@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@ferrari2001 said:

Europeans don't do the same. Obamacare is a travesty. It isn't healthcare like other industrial nations have.

Switzerland has pretty much the same model.

That may very well be, but Switzerland also has a population of only 8 million people and a average income of almost double that of America. A system like the ACA will obviously work vastly different in a country with such a low number of people and higher wages.

If it's obvious shouldn't be too hard for you to prove it then.

pretty sure the CBO has proven it for me. It works in Switzerland, it isn't working here, at least in the next decade. The last thing I thought would happen would be me of all people defending a single payer system.

Please then point me to the CBO report where it says that due to population size and insufficient wealth that it is impossible for the US to create a universal health care system through the private sector.

I never said it was impossible to create healthcare through the private sector only that the ACA isn't the healthcare option that does that and it hasn't shown to do even remotely what they have in Switzerland.

What you did say is that Obamacare is a health care system unlike anything else in any other industrial country. That's demonstrably not true. The way Obamacare works is pretty simple - it's based on three interconnected principles. The first being that Insurance companies can't discriminate based on pre-existing conditions. Because of that, everyone has to buy health insurance. Since everyone has to buy health insurance, the government has to subsidize the purchase of health insurance. That's the heart of Obamacare, and it is also the heart of the Swiss system. The reason why the Swiss system works so much better than the US system right now has nothing to do with population size or average income, it has to do with the fact that Obamacare is brand new and the Swiss system has been around for a while. There's not one example of a social welfare program that was perfect right out of the gate. When social security was first introduced it had a ton of problems as did medicare, but look at them today and they are very successful in doing what they were created to do. That would've never been the case if the people of those times rejecting making that crucial first step because the original legislation wasn't a silver bullet.

If you make the perfect the enemy of the good you will never get anything done ever.

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#57 Edited by lamprey263 (34630 posts) -

I think a big failure in our healthcare overhaul was keep insurance companies in the system, they're there to make profit for themselves and not to look out for the best interest of their clients, they make more money on inefficiency and not negotiating lower costs to consumers. In a very basic sense, let's for the sake of argument say a healthcare plan costs $100/month, 20% or $20 per person of that can be kept by the insurance company for administrative costs and 80% or $80 per person will have to be paid out on claims benefit expenditures for the insured... well, there's a simple way to increase profits, and that's to raise the costs associated with healthcare and be complicit with inefficiency and higher costs for care and drug prices, because then the monthly premiums would increase, and therefore their 20% goes up. This is broken because it wants for profit companies at the helm, rather than either a single payer system or a government insurance program that could negotiate lower costs because it isn't beholden to capitalist incentives. Furthmore, during the overhaul conservatives fought to allow insurance companies the privileged to do what's illegal in any other industry, and that's to meet in private and negotiate price fixing. This allows them to raise their premiums in unison so they all profit, so one company doesn't undercut the others and take the all the business away. That also needs to be one of the first things to go away.

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#58 Edited by airshocker (31700 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@airshocker: Then why did congress water it down this much hmm? Conservatives have crapped on this since day 1, stay focused dude. I know you can't be this ignorant ;)

What are you even talking about? Congress didn't water anything down. Democrats had a majority. They easily passed Obamacare with little to no input from Republicans. Of course Republicans have been shitting on this bill. It's a bad bill. I'd shit on it too if I was an elected representative.

The fact of the matter is Obamacare is a bad bill. You were wrong in attempting to say it was the best thing we've passed in a decade, or whatever. I've shown you why you're wrong and you only seem to be capable of straw mans and other logical fallacies. Maybe you should stay away from OT until you learn the basics.

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#59 Posted by surrealnumber5 (23044 posts) -

@airshocker said:

Congress didn't water anything down. Democrats had a majority. They easily passed Obamacare with little to no input from Republicans. Of course Republicans have been shitting on this bill. It's a bad bill. I'd shit on it too if I was an elected representative.

The fact of the matter is Obamacare is a bad bill. You were wrong in attempting to say it was the best thing we've passed in a decade, or whatever.

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#60 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@airshocker said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@airshocker: Then why did congress water it down this much hmm? Conservatives have crapped on this since day 1, stay focused dude. I know you can't be this ignorant ;)

What are you even talking about? Congress didn't water anything down. Democrats had a majority. They easily passed Obamacare with little to no input from Republicans. Of course Republicans have been shitting on this bill. It's a bad bill. I'd shit on it too if I was an elected representative.

The fact of the matter is Obamacare is a bad bill. You were wrong in attempting to say it was the best thing we've passed in a decade, or whatever. I've shown you why you're wrong and you only seem to be capable of straw mans and other logical fallacies. Maybe you should stay away from OT until you learn the basics.

you're kidding right? Republicans even tried to repeal Obamacare after it was passed...

Avatar image for -Sun_Tzu-
#61 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@airshocker said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@airshocker: Then why did congress water it down this much hmm? Conservatives have crapped on this since day 1, stay focused dude. I know you can't be this ignorant ;)

What are you even talking about? Congress didn't water anything down. Democrats had a majority. They easily passed Obamacare with little to no input from Republicans. Of course Republicans have been shitting on this bill. It's a bad bill. I'd shit on it too if I was an elected representative.

This is complete revisionist history. Passing Obamacare wasn't "easy" at all, especially once Scott Brown was elected. It had to be watered down considerably to get conservative democrats to vote for it in both houses (the senate more so). Then the final product was watered down even more by the fact that the house was forced to pass the senate bill wholesale because of the aforementioned election of Scott Brown in the senate making it possible for republicans to filibuster any bill that would've emerged from conference.

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#62 Posted by LJS9502_basic (162499 posts) -

Eh..the actual care itself is at the top. It's the cost that does that....on the other hand...you get what you pay for as well.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#63 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@airshocker said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@airshocker: Then why did congress water it down this much hmm? Conservatives have crapped on this since day 1, stay focused dude. I know you can't be this ignorant ;)

What are you even talking about? Congress didn't water anything down. Democrats had a majority. They easily passed Obamacare with little to no input from Republicans. Of course Republicans have been shitting on this bill. It's a bad bill. I'd shit on it too if I was an elected representative.

This is complete revisionist history. Passing Obamacare wasn't "easy" at all, especially once Scott Brown was elected. It had to be watered down considerably to get conservative democrats to vote for it in both houses (the senate more so). Then the final product was watered down even more by the fact that the house was forced to pass the senate bill wholesale because of the aforementioned election of Scott Brown in the senate making it possible for republicans to filibuster any bill that would've emerged from conference.

Someone who get's it! Thank you!

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#64 Posted by jasean79 (2593 posts) -
@The_Last_Ride said:

Someone who get's it! Thank you!

Translation: "A like-minded liberal who agrees with me"

Avatar image for -Sun_Tzu-
#65 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@jasean79 said:
@The_Last_Ride said:

Someone who get's it! Thank you!

Translation: "A like-minded liberal who agrees with me"

lol

man do you seem to love bathing in ignorance

I guess it's true though, reality does have a liberal bias

everything in my post is a verifiable fact

and please, don't call me a liberal, I'm much farther to the left than that

Avatar image for jasean79
#66 Posted by jasean79 (2593 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu- said:


and please, don't call me a liberal, I'm much farther to the left than that

I figured this, but I was giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#67 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@jasean79 said:
@The_Last_Ride said:

Someone who get's it! Thank you!

Translation: "A like-minded liberal who agrees with me"

Actually i am not a liberal, but a liberal in US is right wing conservative in Europe. So i am not in the sense you would consider it.

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#68 Posted by deeliman (3766 posts) -

So the commonwealth fund ranked the UK as number 1 in healthcare? How incredibly unbiased

Avatar image for -Sun_Tzu-
#69 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@deeliman said:

So the commonwealth fund ranked the UK as number 1 in healthcare? How incredibly unbiased

the commonwealth fund is a private foundation based in the US

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#70 Posted by pie-junior (2866 posts) -

@ferrari2001 said:

What would you expect when our hospitals and patients are basically held hostage by the pharmaceutical companies who charge outrages prices for necessary medications that should be free, or at least very little cost. The terrible patent laws in this country are also to blame. Add on the fact that doctors are not adequately protected from lawsuits we should expect healthcare costs to continue to rise despite more people becoming insured. It just means more money in the pockets of rich pharmaceutical owners.

The intellectual property model relevant to the pharmaceutical industry and the problem with medical liabilty suits are both not an american phenomenon. what I got from the video is that they're worried about the american healthcare market being ranked last in some report.

Avatar image for airshocker
#71 Edited by airshocker (31700 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@airshocker said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@airshocker: Then why did congress water it down this much hmm? Conservatives have crapped on this since day 1, stay focused dude. I know you can't be this ignorant ;)

What are you even talking about? Congress didn't water anything down. Democrats had a majority. They easily passed Obamacare with little to no input from Republicans. Of course Republicans have been shitting on this bill. It's a bad bill. I'd shit on it too if I was an elected representative.

This is complete revisionist history. Passing Obamacare wasn't "easy" at all, especially once Scott Brown was elected. It had to be watered down considerably to get conservative democrats to vote for it in both houses (the senate more so). Then the final product was watered down even more by the fact that the house was forced to pass the senate bill wholesale because of the aforementioned election of Scott Brown in the senate making it possible for republicans to filibuster any bill that would've emerged from conference.

This is drivel. I remember watching in dread as this thing passed. It was not as hard as you make it out to be.

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#72 Posted by toast_burner (24800 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

Well France is like #1...if you want their 60% income tax you too can have "free" healthcare.

Are you trolling or just insanely stupid? America pays the most per capita for their healthcare. That's right you pay the most yet have the worst.

It's an undeniable fact that a universal healthcare system is better than the crap they have in America.

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#73 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@airshocker said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@airshocker said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@airshocker: Then why did congress water it down this much hmm? Conservatives have crapped on this since day 1, stay focused dude. I know you can't be this ignorant ;)

What are you even talking about? Congress didn't water anything down. Democrats had a majority. They easily passed Obamacare with little to no input from Republicans. Of course Republicans have been shitting on this bill. It's a bad bill. I'd shit on it too if I was an elected representative.

This is complete revisionist history. Passing Obamacare wasn't "easy" at all, especially once Scott Brown was elected. It had to be watered down considerably to get conservative democrats to vote for it in both houses (the senate more so). Then the final product was watered down even more by the fact that the house was forced to pass the senate bill wholesale because of the aforementioned election of Scott Brown in the senate making it possible for republicans to filibuster any bill that would've emerged from conference.

This is drivel. I remember watching in dread as this thing passed. It was not as hard as you make it out to be.

Then you obviously you weren't paying attention very closely. The first health care legislation that was introduced in the house was the "Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act" on January 26th, 2009 but died in committee. The next bill to be introduced was the "America's Affordable Health Choices Act" that was introduced in July the same year. That too died in committee. It wasn't until the "Affordable Health Care for America Act", introduced in October of that year did the house pass a health care bill at all, and even then it only passed with a difference of 5 votes.

But this wasn't even the bill that got signed into law. To find that you'd have to go to the senate to find the Affordable Care Act, which was introduced in November and passed without a vote to spare on the very last day congress was in session in 2009. Then in early 2010 Scott Brown won in Massachusetts and health care reform looked pretty much dead. The senate no longer had the votes necessary to pass any health care reform bill that came from conference and democrats had strong doubts that they could pass the senate bill in the house unaltered. Democratic leadership seriously considered abandoning reform all together; it was only due to extremely creative parliamentary tricks in the house that Pelosi able to get the senate bill passed, again by a margin of 5 votes.

If you don't like Obamacare that's fine, but you don't have to lie and act like it was a breeze to get through congress.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#74 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu-: Don't forget that states have refused to implement it and senators have tried reppealing it several times after it passed

Avatar image for -Sun_Tzu-
#75 Posted by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@-Sun_Tzu-: Don't forget that states have refused to implement it and senators have tried reppealing it several times after it passed

Not only that but the supreme court was a vote shy of striking down the law all together. In fact reports since have suggested that John Roberts originally had voted with what eventually became the dissent but eventually changed his vote.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#76 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@-Sun_Tzu-: Don't forget that states have refused to implement it and senators have tried reppealing it several times after it passed

Not only that but the supreme court was a vote shy of striking down the law all together. In fact reports since have suggested that John Roberts originally had voted with what eventually became the dissent but eventually changed his vote.

It's well known that some of the supreme court people have no idea about some matters, because they base it on their beliefs rather than common sense. Just look at Citizens United

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#77 Posted by Master_Live (18821 posts) -

@ferrari2001 said:

necessary medications that should be free, or at least very little cost.

Is that so.

Avatar image for thegerg
#78 Posted by thegerg (18332 posts) -

@Master_Live said:

@ferrari2001 said:

necessary medications that should be free, or at least very little cost.

Is that so.

Yes, FREE! Doctors and researchers don't deserve to be compensated for their labor.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#79 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg: They're not the ones making the money, it's the companies with the patents. Why do you think Polio is gone? Because it was free for everyone

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#80 Edited by thehig1 (6231 posts) -

@Master_Live said:

Better if you provide a link.

yeah I'm not watching the video

Avatar image for 35cent
#81 Posted by 35cent (934 posts) -

lol you guys suck at healthcare.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#82 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@35cent said:

lol you guys suck at healthcare.

Yup, indeed they do

Avatar image for HoolaHoopMan
#83 Posted by HoolaHoopMan (9411 posts) -

The obvious answer is the privatize all of health care. Free market FTW.

Avatar image for thegerg
#84 Posted by thegerg (18332 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: They're not the ones making the money, it's the companies with the patents. Why do you think Polio is gone? Because it was free for everyone

No, it was not free for everyone.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#85 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: They're not the ones making the money, it's the companies with the patents. Why do you think Polio is gone? Because it was free for everyone

No, it was not free for everyone.

Yes it is, everyone has access to the vaccine

Avatar image for thegerg
#86 Posted by thegerg (18332 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: They're not the ones making the money, it's the companies with the patents. Why do you think Polio is gone? Because it was free for everyone

No, it was not free for everyone.

Yes it is, everyone has access to the vaccine

It was not free. The doctors and researchers that developed it were paid. The people that manufactured and distributed it were also paid. They did not work for free.

Avatar image for MirkoS77
#87 Posted by MirkoS77 (12788 posts) -

I'm chronically ill (cancer), so I can speak from a patient's perspective here.

I'm with Kaiser, and I receive wonderful medical treatment. I have everything I need, everything is provided for and my co-payments are nil. I take a lot of meds, do injections for myself that cost thousands of dollars, have had experimental treatment and constantly have MRIs and procedures that are covered. I'm under Quest and numerous other programs of assistance. I'm HUGELY grateful for the quality of healthcare I receive, at least where I'm at. Do the people that claim the U.S.'s healthcare poor actually even use it? Shit, the only thing that could make mine better would be having a hot masseuse come over every night to tuck me in.

Now, if I ever lax on my coverage I'm sure I'll never again get covered, but the quality of the coverage when I am is more than fine by me.

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#88 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: They're not the ones making the money, it's the companies with the patents. Why do you think Polio is gone? Because it was free for everyone

No, it was not free for everyone.

Yes it is, everyone has access to the vaccine

It was not free. The doctors and researchers that developed it were paid. The people that manufactured and distributed it were also paid. They did not work for free.

I didn't say people weren't paid, but the patent was free

Avatar image for thegerg
#89 Posted by thegerg (18332 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: They're not the ones making the money, it's the companies with the patents. Why do you think Polio is gone? Because it was free for everyone

No, it was not free for everyone.

Yes it is, everyone has access to the vaccine

It was not free. The doctors and researchers that developed it were paid. The people that manufactured and distributed it were also paid. They did not work for free.

I didn't say people weren't paid, but the patent was free

No, the patent was not free.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#90 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: They're not the ones making the money, it's the companies with the patents. Why do you think Polio is gone? Because it was free for everyone

No, it was not free for everyone.

Yes it is, everyone has access to the vaccine

It was not free. The doctors and researchers that developed it were paid. The people that manufactured and distributed it were also paid. They did not work for free.

I didn't say people weren't paid, but the patent was free

No, the patent was not free.

uhm, yes it was. Same with penicillin

Link

Avatar image for thegerg
#91 Posted by thegerg (18332 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: They're not the ones making the money, it's the companies with the patents. Why do you think Polio is gone? Because it was free for everyone

No, it was not free for everyone.

Yes it is, everyone has access to the vaccine

It was not free. The doctors and researchers that developed it were paid. The people that manufactured and distributed it were also paid. They did not work for free.

I didn't say people weren't paid, but the patent was free

No, the patent was not free.

uhm, yes it was. Same with penicillin

Link

No, the patent was not free. The patent did not even exist.

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#92 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg: Which means he gave it away for free and didn't really earn anything from it

Avatar image for thegerg
#93 Edited by thegerg (18332 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: Which means he gave it away for free and didn't really earn anything from it

No. You can't give away for free something that does not even exist.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#94 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: Which means he gave it away for free and didn't really earn anything from it

No. You can't give away for free something that does not even exist.

He could have easily just made a patent on it and made billions

Avatar image for thegerg
#95 Posted by thegerg (18332 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: Which means he gave it away for free and didn't really earn anything from it

No. You can't give away for free something that does not even exist.

He could have easily just made a patent on it and made billions

I agree. Still, it was not free.

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#97 Posted by Open-Casket (72 posts) -

Well jeez, that's terrible. Not so bad up here in Canada with our "maple syrup chugging assess," is it?

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#98 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: Which means he gave it away for free and didn't really earn anything from it

No. You can't give away for free something that does not even exist.

He could have easily just made a patent on it and made billions

I agree. Still, it was not free.

Well if you invent something and you don't take money for it, it's basicly free minus the cost for staff and the resources

Avatar image for thegerg
#99 Posted by thegerg (18332 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: Which means he gave it away for free and didn't really earn anything from it

No. You can't give away for free something that does not even exist.

He could have easily just made a patent on it and made billions

I agree. Still, it was not free.

Well if you invent something and you don't take money for it, it's basicly free minus the cost for staff and the resources

He didn't invent the patent on the vaccine. The patent on the vaccine doesn't exist.

Avatar image for The_Last_Ride
#100 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg: Yup, because he never filed a patanet on it. Many companies do it nowadays