The true Atheist

I was reading something about a "meaning" behind a song I was listening to (Parabola by Tool), and some of the explanations were, since it is a Tool song, spiritually grounded. A comment posted by a guy named Mike explained why he thinks that Parabola is about dichotomy, and it is, in my opinion and his, a perfect description for what a true Atheist should be. You can find the whole Songfacts page here.

Parabola is about the two sides of a dichotomy, hence the name. The two sides are how one can live their life, and how to deal with one specific side. The two options are to live life in the illusions, believing that pain is real and that our actions hold some inherent meaning to some illusory deity. The second side of reality is living in the present moment, to realize that even though there is no god that you are not alone, your body reminds you that you are alive, that you are human. We are not alone because we have each other, that is Parabola. Recognize this life as a gift, ride the spiral of new experiences and don't waste this gift while you wait for something that does not exist. It's how to be a fully realized atheist connected to a spirituality of humanity and the present.

Thoughts? Do you agree with this assessment?

Stating the obvious, I don't. But isn't it what every atheist think? there's nothing new in it.

Most "atheists" that I have met limited their spiritual code to "**** Jesus" or something similar. I rarely meet or know of an atheist who truly treats Atheism as the counter-spirituality that it actually is.

hmmmm I think I can agree with that. In my humble opinion, an atheist should always be searching for his arguments against things that humanity has believed since ages. But I rarely see an atheist who actually comes up with sensible arguments except bashing on religion with no real cause. Just a few days ago there was this atheist I met on the internet who was like "I don't need to know your religion to form my opinion about it"... *brainpalm*

I would like to politely disagree. You say "an atheist should always be searching for his arguments against things that humanity has believed since ages" but why should an atheist need to keep discussing his or her beliefs? Although lots of atheists are really argumentative, that's not what being an atheist is about. It's like saying you should always be thinking of arguments to defend your faith. I like to think I live life fully and at peace, without the weight and fear of a god on my shoulders and that it helps me do my best to be happy here and help other people in suffering because I can't just say to myself "It's ok, they will have peace in Heaven"; to me people suffer and then they cease to exist and that's a terrible existence, so I do my best to help people live comfortably (or as close to it as possible).

You, as a religious person (and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth), get your peace from the comfort of an afterlife and doing things that please your god, follow his teachings and live life according to your religion's rules.

We both find our peace and place in the world in two different ways; why should any of us need to defend that against others who might disagree? Yeah, some people have the "**** Jesus" mentality, some have the "**** Christians" or "**** atheists" mentality, but you what? **** them, we believe what we believe, and as long as we don't believe we should murder everyone we see for the glory of Zorg then who cares how we decide to live our lives? I have christian family, Muslim and Pagan friends, hang around buddhists and work with atheists and you know how their religion (or lack of) affects our relationship? It doesn't, because while being a theist or atheist is a part of someone, there's a lot more to someone that the god they choose to worship.

@Kevlar101: Tool!!! =D

@korvus: I was strictly considering the 'debates' that occur between the two parties. Yes you can live your life with people from other faiths and beliefs. Therefore, I agree with everything you said except this:

I like to think I live life fully and at peace, without the weight and fear of a god on my shoulders and that it helps me do my best to be happy here and help other people in suffering because I can't just say to myself "It's ok, they will have peace in Heaven"; to me people suffer and then they cease to exist and that's a terrible existence, so I do my best to help people live comfortably (or as close to it as possible).

That's the kind of mentality that needs to be changed. Not believing in any God isn't the direct definition to ' I'm living fully'. We live fully too. And at peace. If there's anyone who really is committed to his religion, the thing that you quoted "It's ok, they will have peace in Heaven", will be non-existent in his life. Again, that's why I said that atheists need to keep exploring. So as do we.

@i_return: I think you misunderstood my meaning. Saying I live life fully without a God doesn't translate to "religious people don't live a full life because of their religion". I merely meant that I don't feel like I need a god to live fully; I'm not trying to relate that to anybody else's life, only mine =) As for peace I even mentioned in my post that you find your peace as well.

And I know a lot of Christians (name them true or false, they name themselves Christians) who manage to pass by suffering because "the sufferers are working towards their eternal reward". I was saying I can't do that, but again. I'm not saying that YOU can or cannot. I actually think this is the reason most conversation about religion go to shit. Instead of reading what people say, most people focus on trying to figure out what they didn't say, or which hidden meaning they put in their words.

Personally, when I say "I" I'm only referring to myself, not trying to make a point about how I'm different from everybody else or how other people are the opposite of me. Not every atheist belittles religion. Do I want/need/miss being a christian? Definitely not...my life has improved tenfold when I left religion behind. Do Christians agree with this? No. Am I going to change my life because they don't agree? Again, no. Do I feel like everyone should become an atheist? Only if they choose to. If they're happy being religious, then by all means, be happy!

@korvus: Well then, that settles it. Pretty much.

@i_return: Then I thank you for a polite conversation. It's hard to find people like you, Alim and Gaza with whom I can have a conversation about things that we have totally different views on and it not degenerating into a crap-flinging fest.

@korvus: I like sensible arguments more than anything. But there's nothing I hate more when an argument turns into a shittalking fest. Keep it polite. Keep it logical. These are the rules I follow.

Taken as a compliment. I'm gonna cherish it for another two years or so.

@i_return: It was meant as a compliment =)

If religion can be however a group dictates it to be, then so can Athiests. There are so many religious groups that have altered beliefs from each other, I see no reason why Athiests have to conform to some specific set of rules.

Personally, I prefer to not have a firm set of beliefs but rather to just keep an open mind and take it all in. All too often people with firm beliefs will not even consider anything else which often leads to ignorance.

No I don't agree with his opinion. And I don't know why it's given weight.

Atheism means not believing in a god. Theism is believing in a god.

This is such a simple concept how do people get confused about this?

This.

So true.

Ja'far al-Sadiq: “Worship is of three kinds: some people worship Allah, because they fear Him – so it is the worship of slaves; and a group worships Allah, Blessed and High is He, to seek reward – so it is the worship of hirelings; and a group worships Allah, Mighty and Great is He, because of (His) love – and this is the worship of the free, and it is the most excellent worship.” (al-Kafi)

Ali: "Verily, some people worshiped Allah being desirous (Of His reward) – so this is the worship of traders; and some people worshiped Allah fearing (His punishment) – so it is the worship of slaves, and a group worshiped Allah in gratitude (to Him) so this is the worship of the free."(Nahju ‘I-balaghah)

they are told from a young age, and reinforced by society around them, the wrong meanings of words and given strawmans of positions and it all snowballs from there. Not just limited to that topic though, it happens to everything.

That quote seems to suggest that a believer in god cannot recognize this life as a gift and instead moans around waiting for the afterlife. In my experience very few religious people do this. It also suggests that believers are somehow wasting their life, if someone is happy with the life they are living, religious or non-religious, how can it be considered a waste?

Sure that's one meaning, but keep in mind that BOTH sides of the parabola continue to infinity.

Agreeing with thegerg here, so obviously, the word is ending.

Counter-spirituality? What is that?

Atheism is a lack of belief in a deity. Buddhists can be atheists. Jains can be atheists. Hell, I've heard of Christian atheists (those who like the Christian moral code but don't recognize the existence of a God, it's fucking weird).

Anything beyond that isn't atheism. "Religious experiences" are pretty much all the same biologically (an ecstatic reaction to an altered form of consciousness) but are merely perceived as something different.

Listen to Lateralus instead

Well I for one, just lack the belief in a god. Though there are some fundamentalist atheists and atheists that deeply hate religion, it's pretty silly.

So what am I, a fake atheist?

atheism is even more stupid than religion.

why?

because how do you reject one faith based philosophy then embrace another?

atheists should have a higher standard for logic than the guys that believe there is a mind-blowingly morally advanced being that would kill you for looking at another god and gets his kicks by having bears maul children.

if you have no proof of something but believe it anyway then it is a faith based decision.

and it is worse because atheists should have a higher standard of logic and not just believe shit because they believe it.

@Riverwolf007: What kind of shit do you think atheists believe, exactly?

lulz.

what is up with you guys?

how hard is this concept to understand?

there is no proof that god does or does not exist.

therefore.... if you definitively state god exists...or...if you definitively state god does not exist...then both of those statements are based on faith.

bingo, atheism is exactly as faith based as any religion.

if you have no proof, it's faith.

jesus christ people, this is not rocket science.

@Riverwolf007: The only problem with your concept is saying that you don't believe in God is not the same thing as saying you are absolutely sure god does not exist...

ok .

here is the definition of atheist.

if you are this person then your belief is based in faith.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist

lulz.

@Riverwolf007: I'm a person who doesn't give a damn whether there is a god or not, and I have no belief in any of them; therefore not a theist, which makes me, by exclusion, atheist. But again, none of that means I'm stating that there is absolutely no way a supreme being can exist, I just don't care if he/she/they do(es).

this is just silly.

a belief that is not based on proof is literally the exact definition of faith.

literally.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith?s=t

lol, no you're not, if you don't give two shits then you are agnostic.

@Riverwolf007: Yes, but an agnostic is still an atheist. As long as you don't believe in a specific god you're an atheist, but not everyone's lack of belief is the same. If you want to be specific I'm an apatheist (thanks Greg =P)

"Apatheism (/ˌæpəˈθiːɪzəm/ a portmanteau of apathy and theism/atheism), also known as pragmatic atheism or practical atheism, is acting with apathy, disregard, or lack of interest towards belief or disbelief in a deity. Apatheism describes the manner of acting towards a belief or lack of a belief in a deity, so it applies to both theism and atheism. An apatheist is also someone who is not interested in accepting or denying any claims that godsexist or do not exist. In other words, an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to their life."

One of those has to be taught. They are not the same. Definitively.

An atheist is someone who lacks the belief in a god, is that hard to fucking understand?

atheism is a belief not based on any evidence so it is faith.

it is exactly that simple.

you can squirm all you want and play semantics with words that have clear definitions but it does not change the reality of you believing in something with zero proof.

once again you can look for yourself if you want.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/faith?s=t

Nor does it change the fact that belief and lack of belief aren't the same...

dude, technically everyone is an atheist. (and apparently an apatheist)

there are about a zillion gods and nobody believes in 99.9% of them.

also, agnostics are not even close to atheism.

atheism is a definite no, agnostics are a mos def don't give a damn about unanswerable questions..

Dude, all the posts in this thread and you haven't managed to get a single definition right...you're either trolling or just really bad at this. For you to be an atheist you have to lack belief in all religions; if you believe in any one of them you're obviously not an atheist. Who would you call theists then? People who believe in ALL religions? Are you even trying to have a serious conversation?

You are only narrow minded because you choose to be. Atheism doesn't have to be a definite no. Just look the definition up.

Wikipedia - Most inclusively, atheism is the absence of belief that any deities exist

Oxford dictionaries - Disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

atheists.org - Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Do you want more examples? Atheism is not a belief, therefore not covered in your own definition of faith...

that's what i'm screaming.

every one of these terms has a definition that can be confirmed.

yeah i hacked dictionary.com so it would support my argument.

look, atheists can't believe in any gods.

if you believe in so much as one then you are not an atheist.

theists can believe in one or a million. it makes no difference.

Troll confirmed.

Atheism is the default state of being. Everyone is born an atheist. They might end up believing in a deity, in which case they become theists, but we were all atheists at some point in our lives.

Atheists can be spiritual. They can be anything, and hold whatever philosophy or belief system they like. The only things they don't believe in, by definition, are deities.

I'm not sure why people struggle with things like this. "A-theism" = "without a belief in a deity".

the lesson here for ot.

atheists get pretty fired up when you mock their faith.

how ironic is that?