Should we lower the age to purchase guns?

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#101 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@farrell2k said:

@thegerg said:

@farrell2k: There are not guns without owners. The fact that there are fewer gun owners does NOT mean that there are fewer guns, so the conclusion that you've drawn really has no support from the statistics you're referencing.

No one is talking about the total number of guns. That statistic is meaningless. Owners of guns that sit in a warehouse owned by a manufacturer or distributor are irrelevant. Guns in the hands of homeowners and the general populace on the street is the issue. Stop trying to distract from the issue. it's pointless.

I get that you are pro gun and want to paint them in the best llight possible. Everyone can see that, but you cannot ignore reality. Every single first world country, including our own based on recent statistics, demonstrates that fewer guns means less crime. I am sorry, but there is just no way around it.

"No one is talking about the total number of guns."

If you don't simply mean "fewer guns", then you shouldn't talk about simply "fewer guns."

"Guns in the hands of homeowners and the general populace on the street is the issue."

The statistic that you're referencing, that fewer people own guns, does not mean that people own fewer guns. Again, it's clear that you don't really understand what you're talking about.

"I get that you are pro gun and want to paint them in the best llight possible."

I'm not painting guns in any light. I'm simply talking reality. You've drawn conclusions that aren't supported by the stats you've provided. It's got nothing to do with whether I'm for or against anything, it's simply about logic.

"you cannot ignore reality."

I agree, that's why I don't ignore reality.

"Every single first world country, including our own based on recent statistics, demonstrates that fewer guns means less crime."

Not true. Do a little research. The numbers coming out of Switzerland will surprise you.

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#102 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Why are you trying to frame the conversation in terms of need?

why else would you get a gun?!

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#103 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Why are you trying to frame the conversation in terms of need?

why else would you get a gun?!

Fr the same reason you get a video game, or a cheeseburger, or a soccer ball. Because you want one.

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#104 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@torenojohn7 said:

@lostrib: Drugs are also "fun" you don't see it being legal! yes its okay for military officials and authorized hunters to own these advanced weapons.. but ya'll should learn from Japan and refrain from using guns.

For self-defense a tazer,pepper spray and a small non-lethal pistol to shoot someone in the legs is enough.. there is no legitimate reason why any civilian should have a right to own anything other a small pistol period!

@BranKetra:Old lady WTF? how can an old lady who can't even drive properly handle a fuc*king gun? i won't even trust an old lady with a tazer.

@thegerg: That's because guns are more convenient but that doesn't negate the fact that mass shootings only happen because of advanced weapons.

"For self-defense a tazer,pepper spray and a small non-lethal pistol to shoot someone in the legs is enough"

It's statements like this that show us that you really don't understand the real world. You have no problem with people using deadly force to protect themselves, but think they should only do so with a "small pistol"? (PS- There is no such thing as a "non-lethal" pistol. Ignorance FTL.)

"there is no legitimate reason why any civilian should have a right to own anything other a small pistol period!"

Of course there is. If I want to harvest a deer I should use a weapon that is accurate and powerful enough to put it down quickly, not a "small pistol."

"That's because guns are more convenient but that doesn't negate the fact that mass shootings only happen because of advanced weapons."

What's because guns are more convenient?

"mass shootings only happen because of advanced weapons"

How, exactly, do you define "advanced"?

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#105 Edited by torenojohn7 (542 posts) -

@lostrib: Why stop there? let's make LSD legal! let's make Weed legal! let's make underage sex&marriages legal! underage sex&drugs are obviously fun so they should be legal too!

@thegerg: "It's statements like this that show us that you really don't understand the real world"

No sir i just don't understand stupid gun obsessed Americans,in my country it is not common to own guns.

"but think they should only do so with a "small pistol"

Yes.. are they protecting themselves or willingly killing someone? if i'm forced to shoot someone i would choose a small gun there's no need for a semi-auto assault rifle for self-defense unless you're in a war.(PS:there is a thing called NON-lethal Gun Riot guns are filled with rubber bullets,Ignorance = over 9000!)

"If I want to harvest a deer I should use a weapon that is accurate and powerful enough to put it down quickly, not a "small pistol."

I already said sport hunters can get their permit to buy guns but not everyone... only authorized hunters who are proficient with guns and besides i don't think hunters need semi-auto rapid fire guns either!

"What's because guns are more convenient?"

No small guns are. its easy to carry them around thus kills more people but only the likes of rapid firing assault rifles can make mass shootings possible.

"How, exactly, do you define "advanced"

Well as i see it pistol is like level 1 anything with rapid-fire on is "Advanced".

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#106 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@torenojohn7 said:

@lostrib: Why stop there? let's make LSD legal! let's make Weed legal! let's make underage sex&marriages legal! underage sex&drugs are obviously fun so they should be legal too!

@thegerg: "It's statements like this that show us that you really don't understand the real world"

No sir i just don't understand stupid gun obsessed Americans,in my country it is not common to own guns.

"but think they should only do so with a "small pistol"

Yes.. are they protecting themselves or willingly killing someone? if i'm forced to shoot someone i would choose a small gun there's no need for a semi-auto assault rifle for self-defense unless you're in a war.(PS:there is a thing called NON-lethal Gun Riot guns are filled with rubber bullets,Ignorance = over 9000!)

"If I want to harvest a deer I should use a weapon that is accurate and powerful enough to put it down quickly, not a "small pistol."

I already said hunters can get their permit to buy guns but not everyone... only authorized hunters who are proficient with guns and besides i don't think hunters need an semi-auto rapid fire guns either!

"What's because guns are more convenient?"

No small guns are. its easy to carry them around thus kills more people but only the likes of rapid firing assault rifles can make mass shootings possible.

"How, exactly, do you define "advanced"

Well as i see it pistol is like level 1 anything with rapid-fire on is "Advanced".

"Yes.. are they protecting themselves or willingly killing someone? if i'm forced to shoot someone i would choose a small gun there's no need for a semi-auto assault rifle for self-defense unless you're in a war.(PS:there is a thing called NON-lethal Gun Riot guns are filled with rubber bullets,Ignorance = over 9000!)"

Shooting a person in the legs with a small round isn't really an effective use of deadly force. Also, show me a non-lethal pistol that's readily available to civilians. I'll wait...

"I already said hunters can get their permit to buy guns but not everyone... only authorized hunters who are proficient with guns and besides i don't think hunters need an semi-auto rapid fire guns either!"

What you said was "there is no legitimate reason why any civilian should have a right to own anything other a small pistol period." You're contradicting yourself here. You're making yourself look foolish.

"No small guns are."

No small guns are what? You're not making sense here.

"its easy to carry them around thus kills more people but only the likes of rapid firing assault rifles can make mass shootings possible."

Not true. Look at the mass shootings in the past few years in the US. Assault rifles are simply not used in these murders.

"Well as i see it pistol is like level 1 anything with rapid-fire on is "Advanced"."

What's "level 1"?

Anyway, what about something like this, by your standard (no "rapid-fire on") this is not an advanced weapon:

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#107 Posted by BranKetra (51726 posts) -

@torenojohn7: I would like to know what you suggest as an alternative.

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#110 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@farrell2k

No one is saying there isn't a correlation. WTF are you on about?

Anyway, there is no need to insult other users. Please try to act like an adult.

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#111 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@GamingGod999 said:

Do Americans seriously consider 18 year-olds as 'teens'? So you can enrol to join the military as soon as you turn 17, but have to wait until you're 21 to drink a beer? What the ****?!

Uh, eighteenyear olds are, in fact, teens.

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#112 Edited by GamingGod999 (3135 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@GamingGod999 said:

Do Americans seriously consider 18 year-olds as 'teens'? So you can enrol to join the military as soon as you turn 17, but have to wait until you're 21 to drink a beer? What the ****?!

Uh, eighteenyear olds are, in fact, teens.

Wouldn't an 18 year-old be seen as an 'adult' under US law? How would they be treated if trialled in court?

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#113 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@GamingGod999 said:

@thegerg said:

@GamingGod999 said:

Do Americans seriously consider 18 year-olds as 'teens'? So you can enrol to join the military as soon as you turn 17, but have to wait until you're 21 to drink a beer? What the ****?!

Uh, eighteenyear olds are, in fact, teens.

Wouldn't an 18 year-old be seen as an 'adult' under US law? How would they be seen if trialled in court?

Yes, 18 is the legal age of majority in the US. That has no bearing on whether or not they're a teen.

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#114 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Why are you trying to frame the conversation in terms of need?

why else would you get a gun?!

Fr the same reason you get a video game, or a cheeseburger, or a soccer ball. Because you want one.

the big difference between the other you mentioned, none of those kill anyone with a little motion

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#115 Posted by BranKetra (51726 posts) -

Strong opinions are fine. Attacking each other is not.

When making a post which would be regarded as the latter, ask yourself, "Would I say this in a public setting away from computer?" Moderations can be avoided by doing so. Topics like this are good when spirited discussions occur, but communication fails when users flame each other. It simply does not work. Please, for all of our sakes, have some dignity.

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#116 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride: Then look at some other things. Baseball bats, roller coaster rides, hammers, motorcycles, etc.. These can kill people and people buy them because they want them.

Anyway, just try to answer the question. Why are you trying to frame the issue in terms of need?

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#117 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Then look at some other things. Baseball bats, roller coaster rides, hammers, motorcycles, etc.. These can kill people and people buy them because they want them.

Anyway, just try to answer the question. Why are you trying to frame the issue in terms of need?

Their sole intention isn't killing anyone else... The only reason guns are made is to kill people...

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#118 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride: Untrue. Do a little research. Guns have other purposes than to kill others. Misrepresenting the truth is a dishonest and ineffective way of communicating, knock it off.

Again, answer the question. Why are you trying to frame the argument in terms of need? Stop avoiding the question.

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#119 Edited by PurpleLabel (314 posts) -

While we're at it, lets let 10 year old drive cars, and 12 year olds be able to buy cigarettes. Bran, can this thread be locked already? it's seriously just a troll thread.

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#120 Posted by chaoscougar1 (37597 posts) -

@timothyrolls said:

@Aljosa23 said:

14 or 15? LOL

Surely a troll thread.

not really, kids get in scrapes at that age, school shootings happen (at any age), muggings happen, and as a father I don't want my life or other parents to have their lives destroyed in a matter of seconds.

I get that teachers should have firearms ready for school shootings like the horrible Sandy Hook incidents (sometimes kids are just too young), but in the case of muggings on the street shouldn't kids have the right to fend for their lives?

lol
The irony

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#121 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Untrue. Do a little research. Guns have other purposes than to kill others. Misrepresenting the truth is a dishonest and ineffective way of communicating, knock it off.

Again, answer the question. Why are you trying to frame the argument in terms of need? Stop avoiding the question.

I already answered you, people don't need a freaking gun. American culture deems it "cool" or necessary.

Wow... Really? What can you use guns to other than shooting stuff? I am not misrepresenting the truth, you can't grasp the simple concept of that guns are made to kill people

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#122 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride: You're framing the discussion in terms of need because people don't need guns? Do you attempt to frame discussions of video games in terms of need because people don't need video games? Your reasoning doesn't make much sense.

At what point did I say guns are used for things other than shooting stuff?

You certainly are misrepresenting the truth. I am a gun owner. I own a number of guns, not one of them is designed, purposed, or intended to kill people. To say that that is the only intent, design, or purpose of guns is simply untrue. Again, do some research.

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#123 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: You're framing the discussion in terms of need because people don't need guns? Do you attempt to frame discussions of video games in terms of need because people don't need video games? Your reasoning doesn't make much sense.

At what point did I say guns are used for things other than shooting stuff?

You certainly are misrepresenting the truth. I am a gun owner. I own a number of guns, not one of them is designed, purposed, or intended to kill people. To say that that is the only intent, design, or purpose of guns is simply untrue. Again, do some research.

"Guns have other purposes than to kill others."

Ok, then why do we have guns? Please enlighten me. If it's not for killing or shooting people then what is their purpose...?

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#125 Edited by Blutfahne (276 posts) -

@Aljosa23 said:

14 or 15? LOL

Surely a troll thread.

I learned to shoot around 12(bb guns around 10) and passed Hunter's Education(required to hunt big game) at 13. I could not purchase a gun yes but my father gave me one which was perfectly legal. Depends on the state and how communist it has become.

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#126 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: You're framing the discussion in terms of need because people don't need guns? Do you attempt to frame discussions of video games in terms of need because people don't need video games? Your reasoning doesn't make much sense.

At what point did I say guns are used for things other than shooting stuff?

You certainly are misrepresenting the truth. I am a gun owner. I own a number of guns, not one of them is designed, purposed, or intended to kill people. To say that that is the only intent, design, or purpose of guns is simply untrue. Again, do some research.

"Guns have other purposes than to kill others."

Ok, then why do we have guns? Please enlighten me. If it's not for killing or shooting people then what is their purpose...?

"Ok, then why do we have guns?"

I don't know why you have guns.

I can tell you why I have guns, though. I enjoy sport shooting and hunting. Hell, even the guns I have for personal defense I don't have in order to kill people with.

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#128 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@farrell2k said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Untrue. Do a little research. Guns have other purposes than to kill others. Misrepresenting the truth is a dishonest and ineffective way of communicating, knock it off.

Again, answer the question. Why are you trying to frame the argument in terms of need? Stop avoiding the question.

I already answered you, people don't need a freaking gun. American culture deems it "cool" or necessary.

Wow... Really? What can you use guns to other than shooting stuff? I am not misrepresenting the truth, you can't grasp the simple concept of that guns are made to kill people

You should realize by now that no matter what you say, he'll just come back with his misunderstanding of logical argument and fallacies, or claim that you just never answered some question of his. It's a fools errand even paying attention to him.

You have demonstrated a lack of basic logic a number of times in this thread. Maybe you should try to address your own flaws before accusing others of having them.

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#129 Edited by torenojohn7 (542 posts) -

@thegerg:"Shooting a person in the legs with a small round isn't really an effective use of deadly force. Also, show me a non-lethal pistol that's readily available to civilians. I'll wait.."

Shooting your assilants in non-vital areas of the body is what anyone should do unless they're willingly murdering someone that is and i don't know where you could find pistols with rubber bullets but you do have MACE and tasers that's enough pacifistic self-defence weapons for any average joe.

"You're contradicting yourself here"

No i'm not! unless you're suggesting that more than 50% of americans are sport hunters and skilled with guns which i do not think they are.

"Anyway, what about something like this, by your standard (no "rapid-fire on") this is not an advanced weapon"

If anyone is planning for a mass shooting i think they would want something that doesn't take 5 second breaks after every shot.. eitheway i simply don't see why any average joe should have a right to own anything more than a simple handgun that's enough for self-defense you speak of.

@BranKetra: Do what Japan and other countries are doing!

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#130 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@torenojohn7 said:

@thegerg:"Shooting a person in the legs with a small round isn't really an effective use of deadly force. Also, show me a non-lethal pistol that's readily available to civilians. I'll wait.."

Shooting your assilants in non-vital areas of the body is what anyone should do unless they're willingly murdering someone that is and i don't know where you could find pistols with rubber bullets but you do have MACE and tasers that's enough pacifistic self-defence weapons for any average joe.

"You're contradicting yourself here"

No i'm not! unless you're suggesting that more than 50% of americans are sport hunters and skilled with guns which i do not think they are.

"Anyway, what about something like this, by your standard (no "rapid-fire on") this is not an advanced weapon"

If anyone is planning for a mass shooting i think they would want something that doesn't take 5 second breaks after every shot.. eitheway i simply don't see why any average joe should have a right to own anything more than a simple handgun that's enough for self-defense you speak of.

@BranKetra: Do what Japan and other countries are doing!

"Shooting your assilants in non-vital areas of the body is what anyone should do unless they're willingly murdering someone"

If you're using deadly force it only makes sense to use it in the most effective manner possible. Aiming somewhere other than center mass on a target is silly. You shoot to stop the threat, and the most effective way to do that is to shoot center mass.

"No i'm not!"

Yes you are. You clam that you think hunters should be able to get guns useful in hunting. You also claim "there is no legitimate reason why any civilian should have a right to own anything other a small pistol period." Those two beliefs contradict each other.

"If anyone is planning for a mass shooting i think they would want something that doesn't take 5 second breaks after every shot.. eitheway i simply don't see why any average joe should have a right to own anything more than a simple handgun that's enough for self-defense you speak of."

That doesn't answer the question. The gun pictured doesn't have "rapid-fire on." It fires as quickly as my "simple handgun." Is that an acceptable weapon? Also, what is a "level 1" gun?

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#131 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg: so my lack of logic is that i think guns are made to shoot people?

So for personal defence, so what if someone breaks in. Would you use the bat or the gun to take the intruder down?

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#132 Edited by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: so my lack of logic is that i think guns are made to shoot people?

So for personal defence, so what if someone breaks in. Would you use the bat or the gun to take the intruder down?

"so my lack of logic is that i think guns are made to shoot people?"

I don't think so, I never said anything about you lacking logic. What I do know is that it's factually incorrect to say "the only reason guns are made is to kill people." What you're claiming is simply untrue.

"So for personal defence, so what if someone breaks in. Would you use the bat or the gun to take the intruder down?"

It depends on the situation.

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#133 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@farrell2k: i've had discussions with him before, i know how to handle him

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#134 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg: So why were guns made, because of war aka to shoot people. I rest my case, the jury may now hear the defendant.

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#135 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride: Not all guns are made for war. Anyway, that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that your claim that "the only reason guns are made is to kill people" is simply untrue.

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#136 Edited by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Not all guns are made for war. Anyway, that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that your claim that "the only reason guns are made is to kill people" is simply untrue.

whatever, that's your opinion man

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#137 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride: Haha, no. It's fact. There are guns made for hunting, there are guns made for competitive shooting. Not all guns are made for war, and killing people is not the only reason guns are made.

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#138 Posted by THUMPTABLE (1957 posts) -

@airshocker said:

@thehig1 said:

what is it with Americans and love for guns ?

Gun Murder - Article is a year and half old, but its still shows a trend, less guns less people die from guns

Wouldn't more gun restrictions save lives rather the opposite.

An Analogy using Countries would be, I think ALL countries should Nuclear Bombs to protect themselves and make the world safer. Lets ensure North Korea, Somalia, Iraq have full Nuclear weapons power.

Because the vast majority of gun owners don't commit crimes with their weapons. Why should we be punished for the crimes of a few?

The crimes of a few?? Is that not being disingenuous as the US has highest gun related crime in the developed world by a long way!

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#139 Posted by PurpleLabel (314 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Not all guns are made for war. Anyway, that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that your claim that "the only reason guns are made is to kill people" is simply untrue.

whatever, that's your opinion man

lol owned.

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#140 Edited by airshocker (31700 posts) -

@THUMPTABLE: Compared to how many people legally own firearms, the vast majority of us don't commit crimes. So I'm not seeing where it's disingenuous to refer to the few that do as such.

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#141 Posted by Gamefan1986 (1325 posts) -

@timothyrolls said:

@SaintLeonidas said:

I'll need time to think about this. In the meantime. How about you go to a gun range with a 9 year old and let her shoot an Uzi. Remember to stand real close to her, for instruction purposes of course.

Please don't make light of tragic accidents. Try to have a little respect for the dead.

@Allicrombie said:

We should lower the age required to buy bulletproof vests.

We are creating bulletproof skin. I would definitely support people wearing that if it ever gets perfected.

source

@Nuck81 said:

Mandatory gun training in Kindergarten.

The only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun, is a toddler with a gun

like I said above we will never get people behind such a young age (and yes I get the sarcasm), but proper gun safety and even shooting used to be a thing in schools. It should be brought back.

I'm sorry but if you're fvcking retarded enough to give a 9 year old an Uzi you sort of deserve whatever happens.

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#143 Posted by airshocker (31700 posts) -

@farrell2k said:

@airshocker said:

@THUMPTABLE: Compared to how many people legally own firearms, the vast majority of us don't commit crimes. So I'm not seeing where it's disingenuous to refer to the few that do as such.

How the hell can any sane person consider more than 10,000 murders committed with a gun every year the actions of a "few"? Radical ideologues whine about the number of abortions, but don't even give a thought to the thousands of innocent killed by some moron with a gun who should never been allowed to have one because they are easier to get than a drivers license.

This just goes to demonstrate that "gun people" are irrational, and have a fundamental disconnect with reality!

No, this just demonstrates that your reading comprehension is pretty shitty.

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#144 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@purplelabel said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Not all guns are made for war. Anyway, that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that your claim that "the only reason guns are made is to kill people" is simply untrue.

whatever, that's your opinion man

lol owned.

What?

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#145 Posted by Treflis (13310 posts) -

You can do whatever you want with your gun laws,it'll only reduce my desire of ever visiting the US when I'd run the risk of getting shot by a 18 year old on his way home from a frat party and who "Doesn't like my face" as a reason.

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#146 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@purplelabel said:

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Not all guns are made for war. Anyway, that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that your claim that "the only reason guns are made is to kill people" is simply untrue.

whatever, that's your opinion man

lol owned.

What?

I'm guessing that he's referring to your inability to support your ridiculous and factually incorrect statements with anything more than "whatever, that's your opinion man."

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#147 Posted by The_Last_Ride (76371 posts) -

@thegerg: because you can't agree to the fact that guns were invented to kill people...

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#148 Posted by thegerg (18279 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride: At what point did I say that I don't agree with that? Anyway, that has no bearing on the fact that you've made a number of factually incorrect claims.

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#149 Posted by PurpleLabel (314 posts) -

@The_Last_Ride said:

@thegerg: because you can't agree to the fact that guns were invented to kill people...

They weren't. They were invented for hunting and sport as well.

Once again, owned.

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#150 Edited by HkRay (37 posts) -

@thegerg said:

@The_Last_Ride: Haha, no. It's fact. There are guns made for hunting, there are guns made for competitive shooting. Not all guns are made for war, and killing people is not the only reason guns are made.

You're swimming up river my friend. Their minds are made up and nothing will change it. It's just the way their raised compared to folks like us. Firearms are simply inanimate tools to us, tools used for defending our families, putting food on the table, and competition. While others view them as animate objects with minds of their own.