Raising minimum wage a solution to immigration?

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Avatar image for Serraph105
#1 Edited by Serraph105 (32020 posts) -

So here is an idea that I came across the other day, a solution to illegal immigration is to raise the minimum wage. Many people believe that illegal immigration is a net negative on the economy, (I actually believe the opposite, but for the purposes of this thread I’m looking at it from their point of view). It’s fairly well known that illegal immigrants take a lot of jobs that Americans don’t want due to the low pay. The thought is that if we raise the pay of those jobs enough, legal Americans will actually want to take them thus removing an incentive for people to immigrate in the first place.

So what do you guys think? Would this be an effective plan?

Avatar image for Serraph105
#2 Posted by Serraph105 (32020 posts) -

I suppose the problem I see in the logic is that many of the undocumented workers aren't getting paid anywhere near the minimum wage.

This is where I originally heard this argument.

http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2014/03/17/unz-minimum-wage

Avatar image for sonicare
#3 Posted by sonicare (55536 posts) -

Another solution is to heavily penalize companies that pay illegals substandard wages.

Avatar image for Master_Live
#4 Posted by Master_Live (18821 posts) -

@Serraph105 said:

Many people believe that illegal immigration is a net negative on the economy, (I actually believe the opposite,

You seem to believe you have debunked your own argument already. So lets talk about ^^^^. How so?

Avatar image for Master_Live
#5 Posted by Master_Live (18821 posts) -

@sonicare said:

Another solution is to heavily penalize companies that pay illegals substandard wages.

Do you mean heavily penalize them for just paying illegals substandard wages or for actually hiring them?

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#6 Posted by themajormayor (25638 posts) -

I don't understand why anyone would want to immigrate to that dump, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Avatar image for airshocker
#7 Posted by airshocker (31700 posts) -

@themajormayor said:

I don't understand why anyone would want to immigrate to that dump, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

trollololol

Avatar image for dave123321
#8 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

Is illegal immigration all that bad

Avatar image for Serraph105
#9 Posted by Serraph105 (32020 posts) -

@dave123321:

As I said, I don't believe so, but there are those who do, and despite the fact that we deport people at record numbers, we are treating a symptom as opposed to implementing solutions.

Avatar image for Senor_Kami
#10 Posted by Senor_Kami (8529 posts) -

1. Raise the pay to Americans and illegal immigrants working for less than minimum wage are even more enticing to business owners.

2. Wages aren't the only thing that keeps people from applying to clean shit from toilets, do backbreaking manual labor, or sweat it out in a kitchen (and clean shit from toilets during down time).

3. Higher overall pay in the US makes illegal immigration seem even greater to immigrants because rather than make only $3 an hour, maybe now they can get $5 or $6.

Avatar image for LoG-Sacrament
#11 Edited by LoG-Sacrament (20397 posts) -

@Senor_Kami said:

1. Raise the pay to Americans and illegal immigrants working for less than minimum wage are even more enticing to business owners.

that's what i was thinking. it would put any legal americans that did want those jobs at a disadvantage by widening the pay gap.

Avatar image for dave123321
#13 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

I like illegals to stay

Avatar image for Master_Live
#14 Edited by Master_Live (18821 posts) -

Lets finish the fence, snipers every certain number of meters and headshots. After the first few headlines they might get the idea.

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#15 Posted by Senor_Kami (8529 posts) -

@Master_Live said:

Lets finish the fence, snipers every certain number of meters and headshots. After the first few headlines they might get the idea.

This is a terrible, psychotic idea. That will not stop people from coming over. All it will do is send the message that if you're trying to get in, you need to be armed and ready to kill. The drug wars have shown that there are plenty of groups in Mexico that are armed and ready to kill. It would be a god awful idea to provide a reason for illegal immigrants to turn to them for help.

Not to mention the general insanity of executing people for trying to enter the country.

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#16 Posted by sherman-tank1 (8315 posts) -

@Senor_Kami: I think he was being sarcastic (hopefully).

Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
#17 Posted by LJS9502_basic (162466 posts) -

OP is filled with a lot of fallacies. There is a negative cost with illegal immigration....which I guess you don't want to believe. Anyway what does raising the minimum wage have to do with this? Unless you want more Americans to lose their job.

Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
#18 Edited by LJS9502_basic (162466 posts) -

OP is filled with a lot of fallacies. There is a negative cost with illegal immigration....which I guess you don't want to believe. Anyway what does raising the minimum wage have to do with this? Unless you want more Americans to lose their job.

@dave123321 said:

I like illegals to stay

Why? I have nothing against any demographic LEGALLY immigrating to the US. I think it's cool how diverse we are....but illegal's cost too much tax payer money. And that is bull shit.

Avatar image for Serraph105
#19 Edited by Serraph105 (32020 posts) -

@vfibsux: so they never bought anything with the money that they were paid? Isn't working for a living usually considered contributing to society? I know it is where I live.

Avatar image for Master_Live
#20 Edited by Master_Live (18821 posts) -

Lets just overlook the fact that these individuals ARE BREAKING THE LAW when entering the country, the rule of law is one the pillars of any civilized society, so this is quite a first impression. The fact that some of these individuals have the gall to demand concessions like free tuition or citizenship speaks to how distorted this debate has become.

Avatar image for thegerg
#21 Posted by thegerg (18329 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

@Serraph105 said:

So here is an idea that I came across the other day, a solution to illegal immigration is to raise the minimum wage. Many people believe that illegal immigration is a net negative on the economy, (I actually believe the opposite, but for the purposes of this thread I’m looking at it from their point of view). It’s fairly well known that illegal immigrants take a lot of jobs that Americans don’t want due to the low pay. The thought is that if we raise the pay of those jobs enough, legal Americans will actually want to take them thus removing an incentive for people to immigrate in the first place.

So what do you guys think? Would this be an effective plan?

Illegal immigration is a drain on this economy, I have seen it in work first hand. My father owned a painting business for 40 years and had what I knew were illegals working for him, the work visa numbers they would give him for the IRS would all get kicked back every year and half of them couldn't speak English. Saying that, it is a myth that these people are all paid low wages. The cheapest of any of them was paid $8 per hour (straight up laborer), and the head honcho of their crew made $18. The rest were scattered in between. They all lived in the same house where they rented and split it 5 ways, each family taking their own room. They spent their money in their local area which was all Mexican owned, and the rest they sent back to Mexico. They put no money back into this economy at all. Their kids were in our schools, they used our hospitals, and amazingly 2 of them were arrested for driving without a license, spent a month or so in jail and were released despite not being here legally, it was never even questioned. One of them even had a judge who let him do his jail time on the weekends so he could work during the week lol. Wtf?

They were great workers and great people, I considered them friends.... but they did absolutely nothing for this country by being here, it was all one sided.

For me, lock down the borders and stop letting them in. Stop catering to them, and our POTUS needs to stop offering them more shit. He was on spanish speaking tv telling them to all sign up for obamacare, they would not be deported lol. Heavy fines for any business hiring them, period.

"They were great workers and great people, I considered them friends.... but they did absolutely nothing for this country by being here, it was all one sided."

It was one-sided? Your father must be pretty fucking stupid if he entered into a business arrangement that did not benefit him.

Anyway, your own post provides us with just a few examples of how it wasn't one-sided. Your father was provided with cheap labor, the workers spent money in the local economy, and they made sure that their kids were educated.

Avatar image for thegerg
#22 Posted by thegerg (18329 posts) -

@Master_Live said:

Lets just overlook the fact that these individuals ARE BREAKING THE LAW when entering the country, the rule of law is one the pillars of any civilized society, so this is quite a first impression. The fact that some of these individuals have the gall to demand concessions like free tuition or citizenship speaks to how distorted this debate has become.

Let's not pretend like you've never broken the law.

Avatar image for dave123321
#23 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

Agree strongly with thegerg

Happy days

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#24 Edited by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

Why care about people doing illegal things. It's foolish

Care about the effects of the act

Avatar image for comp_atkins
#25 Edited by comp_atkins (34515 posts) -

wouldn't a higher min wage attract illegal immigrants just as much as citizens? are you also proposing strong citizenship testing for employment?

Avatar image for vl4d_l3nin
#26 Edited by vl4d_l3nin (1095 posts) -

@comp_atkins said:

wouldn't a higher min wage attract illegal immigrants just as much as citizens? are you also proposing strong citizenship testing for employment?

I'm pretty sure most illegals know that min. wage doesn't affect them.

Avatar image for dave123321
#28 Edited by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

Yo vfib what you described was not one sided

Avatar image for thegerg
#30 Posted by thegerg (18329 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

@thegerg said:

@vfibsux said:

@Serraph105 said:

So here is an idea that I came across the other day, a solution to illegal immigration is to raise the minimum wage. Many people believe that illegal immigration is a net negative on the economy, (I actually believe the opposite, but for the purposes of this thread I’m looking at it from their point of view). It’s fairly well known that illegal immigrants take a lot of jobs that Americans don’t want due to the low pay. The thought is that if we raise the pay of those jobs enough, legal Americans will actually want to take them thus removing an incentive for people to immigrate in the first place.

So what do you guys think? Would this be an effective plan?

Illegal immigration is a drain on this economy, I have seen it in work first hand. My father owned a painting business for 40 years and had what I knew were illegals working for him, the work visa numbers they would give him for the IRS would all get kicked back every year and half of them couldn't speak English. Saying that, it is a myth that these people are all paid low wages. The cheapest of any of them was paid $8 per hour (straight up laborer), and the head honcho of their crew made $18. The rest were scattered in between. They all lived in the same house where they rented and split it 5 ways, each family taking their own room. They spent their money in their local area which was all Mexican owned, and the rest they sent back to Mexico. They put no money back into this economy at all. Their kids were in our schools, they used our hospitals, and amazingly 2 of them were arrested for driving without a license, spent a month or so in jail and were released despite not being here legally, it was never even questioned. One of them even had a judge who let him do his jail time on the weekends so he could work during the week lol. Wtf?

They were great workers and great people, I considered them friends.... but they did absolutely nothing for this country by being here, it was all one sided.

For me, lock down the borders and stop letting them in. Stop catering to them, and our POTUS needs to stop offering them more shit. He was on spanish speaking tv telling them to all sign up for obamacare, they would not be deported lol. Heavy fines for any business hiring them, period.

"They were great workers and great people, I considered them friends.... but they did absolutely nothing for this country by being here, it was all one sided."

It was one-sided? Your father must be pretty fucking stupid if he entered into a business arrangement that did not benefit him.

Anyway, your own post provides us with just a few examples of how it wasn't one-sided. Your father was provided with cheap labor, the workers spent money in the local economy, and they made sure that their kids were educated.

Did you even fucking read it or were you so eager to jump to your conclusion you skimmed over it? It was one sided for the country *derp* not my father's business. And it was not "cheap" labor *derp* the guys made anywhere from $8-$18 dollars per hour. And I clearly illustrated how they did NOT put the money back into the economy. Holy shit, learn how to read.

"It was one sided for the country *derp* not my father's business."

Tax paying workers who provide needed labor for small business owners and make efforts to see the next generation is educated isn't beneficial to the country? Are you sure about that?

"And it was not "cheap" labor *derp* the guys made anywhere from $8-$18 dollars per hour."

$8 an hour is pretty cheap. I'm not sure what you do for a living, but that's not a whole lot of money. Anyway, your father must be pretty stupid if he's paying more for their labor than it's worth.

"And I clearly illustrated how they did NOT put the money back into the economy."

No you didn't. You said that "[t]hey spent their money in their local area" and that your "father owned a painting business for 40 years" that relied on their labor. Do you not understand basic economics? These people played a role in the exchange of goods, services, and labor in turn for money. They actively put money into the economy.

Avatar image for vl4d_l3nin
#31 Posted by vl4d_l3nin (1095 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

They spent their money in their local area which was all Mexican owned,

does that mean owned my Mexican citizens, or American citizens who are Mexican?

Avatar image for dave123321
#32 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

Yeah vfib you seem to be making some dubious assumptions

Avatar image for thegerg
#33 Posted by thegerg (18329 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

@Serraph105 said:

@vfibsux: so they never bought anything with the money that they were paid? Isn't working for a living usually considered contributing to society? I know it is where I live.

Like I said the community they lived in was mainly Mexican. They shopped at the small Mexican grocery store in the neighborhood there that was privately owned and no doubt this guy was sending his money back to Mexico as well, and they rented out one house for like two families and 3 individuals which typically would require at least three separate dwellings. The rest of their money was sent back to Mexico to family they had there. They bought everything from garage sales, no retail. They paid no taxes because they used fake tax ID's. My father looked the other way because they were good workers, not because they were cheap labor; he paid them fairly. The majority of Americans he hired would be lazy pieces of crap who would last one week, once they got paid they would be gone, they were bums and they all wanted substantially more to do less work. Sucks to say it but it is true.

So yea it is a complex issue with no simple solution, and it would be difficult for anyone to predict how things would turn out no no matter which way we go. But as much as I liked these people they were not good for the country. Good for my father maybe, but he is one guy with one family. The drain they put on the economy did not equal out the good they did for one family.

"Like I said the community they lived in was mainly Mexican."

Ah, so it's not that they weren't contributing to the community, but it's that they weren't contributing to a white community. Got it.

"They shopped at the small Mexican grocery store in the neighborhood there that was privately owned"

Damn private business owners. All they do is not contribute to the community.

"no doubt this guy was sending his money back to Mexico as well"

As well as paying taxes, paying his suppliers, paying rent/mortgage on his building, paying his employees, paying to put gas in his car, paying to keep the lights on, paying insurance on his business, paying rent/mortgage on his dwelling, etc.. But, yeah, not contributing a damn thing.

"they rented out one house for like two families and 3 individuals which typically would require at least three separate dwellings."

What kind of a dumbass landlord rents out his property for no money? If I was him I'd charge them, then they's be contributing to the economy.

"They bought everything from garage sales, no retail."

Woah, woah, woah! Private individuals engaged in business together?!?! What kind of horseshit is this?!?!?!

"They paid no taxes because they used fake tax ID's."

That's not how it works, kiddo.

"My father looked the other way because they were good workers, not because they were cheap labor; he paid them fairly."

It looks like your father is just as much a part of the problem as were his workers. What kind of a scumbag criminal knowingly employs people in an unlawful manner? He sounds like the kind of douchebag that really should contribute more to the community and this country.

"Americans he hired would be lazy pieces of crap who would last one week, once they got paid they would be gone, they were bums and they all wanted substantially more to do less work."

But, hey, at least they're contributing to the country. AmIright?

Avatar image for dave123321
#34 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

more appreciation and agreement for and with thegerg

Avatar image for dave123321
#36 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

how do you know all this about what they did vfib

Avatar image for thegerg
#38 Edited by thegerg (18329 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

@thegerg said:

"It was one sided for the country *derp* not my father's business."

Tax paying workers who provide needed labor for small business owners and make efforts to see the next generation is educated isn't beneficial to the country? Are you sure about that?

"And it was not "cheap" labor *derp* the guys made anywhere from $8-$18 dollars per hour."

$8 an hour is pretty cheap. I'm not sure what you do for a living, but that's not a whole lot of money. Anyway, your father must be pretty stupid if he's paying more for their labor than it's worth.

"And I clearly illustrated how they did NOT put the money back into the economy."

No you didn't. You said that "[t]hey spent their money in their local area" and that your "father owned a painting business for 40 years" that relied on their labor. Do you not understand basic economics? These people played a role in the exchange of goods, services, and labor in turn for money. They actively put money into the economy.

1. They didn't pay taxes, once again fucking READ.

2. $8 an hour is cheap labor? How fucking much do you think some dude that cannot even speak English who picks up trash at a construction site should make?

3. They sent the majority of their money back to MEXICO. They did not spend it here. Again...the drain they put on the economy compared to what they put into it is one sided.

Don't reply to me anymore, you're an idiot.

1. Illegal immigrants pay taxes. That is a fact.

2. He should make exactly what he and the employer agree upon.

3. Both you and I have already provided examples as to how the relationship is not one sided.

Avatar image for dave123321
#40 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

The gerg is right. You have provided evidence that goes against your point

Avatar image for dave123321
#41 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

@vfibsux: doesn't that link say the opposite of they pay no taxes

Avatar image for thegerg
#42 Posted by thegerg (18329 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

@thegerg said:

@vfibsux said:

@Serraph105 said:

@vfibsux: so they never bought anything with the money that they were paid? Isn't working for a living usually considered contributing to society? I know it is where I live.

Like I said the community they lived in was mainly Mexican. They shopped at the small Mexican grocery store in the neighborhood there that was privately owned and no doubt this guy was sending his money back to Mexico as well, and they rented out one house for like two families and 3 individuals which typically would require at least three separate dwellings. The rest of their money was sent back to Mexico to family they had there. They bought everything from garage sales, no retail. They paid no taxes because they used fake tax ID's. My father looked the other way because they were good workers, not because they were cheap labor; he paid them fairly. The majority of Americans he hired would be lazy pieces of crap who would last one week, once they got paid they would be gone, they were bums and they all wanted substantially more to do less work. Sucks to say it but it is true.

So yea it is a complex issue with no simple solution, and it would be difficult for anyone to predict how things would turn out no no matter which way we go. But as much as I liked these people they were not good for the country. Good for my father maybe, but he is one guy with one family. The drain they put on the economy did not equal out the good they did for one family.

"Like I said the community they lived in was mainly Mexican."

Ah, so it's not that they weren't contributing to the community, but it's that they weren't contributing to a white community. Got it.

"They shopped at the small Mexican grocery store in the neighborhood there that was privately owned"

Damn private business owners. All they do is not contribute to the community.

"no doubt this guy was sending his money back to Mexico as well"

As well as paying taxes, paying his suppliers, paying rent/mortgage on his building, paying his employees, paying to put gas in his car, paying to keep the lights on, paying insurance on his business, paying rent/mortgage on his dwelling, etc.. But, yeah, not contributing a damn thing.

"they rented out one house for like two families and 3 individuals which typically would require at least three separate dwellings."

What kind of a dumbass landlord rents out his property for no money? If I was him I'd charge them, then they's be contributing to the economy.

"They bought everything from garage sales, no retail."

Woah, woah, woah! Private individuals engaged in business together?!?! What kind of horseshit is this?!?!?!

"They paid no taxes because they used fake tax ID's."

That's not how it works, kiddo.

"My father looked the other way because they were good workers, not because they were cheap labor; he paid them fairly."

It looks like your father is just as much a part of the problem as were his workers. What kind of a scumbag criminal knowingly employs people in an unlawful manner? He sounds like the kind of douchebag that really should contribute more to the community and this country.

"Americans he hired would be lazy pieces of crap who would last one week, once they got paid they would be gone, they were bums and they all wanted substantially more to do less work."

But, hey, at least they're contributing to the country. AmIright?

Way to take half the shit I said out of context with this line by line reply bullshit. You are not worth anymore of my time, this is complete bullshit. You asshats enjoy your illegal immigrants. I am sure your Democrat politicians will enjoy their votes.

I took nothing out of context. I responded to each of your poorly thought out points. It's not bullshit, it's how reasonable people communicate.

Avatar image for thegerg
#43 Posted by thegerg (18329 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

@thegerg said:

@vfibsux said:

@thegerg said:

"It was one sided for the country *derp* not my father's business."

Tax paying workers who provide needed labor for small business owners and make efforts to see the next generation is educated isn't beneficial to the country? Are you sure about that?

"And it was not "cheap" labor *derp* the guys made anywhere from $8-$18 dollars per hour."

$8 an hour is pretty cheap. I'm not sure what you do for a living, but that's not a whole lot of money. Anyway, your father must be pretty stupid if he's paying more for their labor than it's worth.

"And I clearly illustrated how they did NOT put the money back into the economy."

No you didn't. You said that "[t]hey spent their money in their local area" and that your "father owned a painting business for 40 years" that relied on their labor. Do you not understand basic economics? These people played a role in the exchange of goods, services, and labor in turn for money. They actively put money into the economy.

1. They didn't pay taxes, once again fucking READ.

2. $8 an hour is cheap labor? How fucking much do you think some dude that cannot even speak English who picks up trash at a construction site should make?

3. They sent the majority of their money back to MEXICO. They did not spend it here. Again...the drain they put on the economy compared to what they put into it is one sided.

Don't reply to me anymore, you're an idiot.

1. Illegal immigrants pay taxes. That is a fact.

2. He should make exactly what he and the employer agree upon.

3. Both you and I have already provided examples as to how the relationship is not one sided.

Derp.

rofl...illegal immigrants pay taxes. Even one of your own liberal rags know this is bullshit. But let's see your next libtard reply...."well this is a reason why we should legalize them all."

From the article:

"The study, conducted by the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP), a non-partisan research organization, says that the country's 11.2 million undocumented immigrants already collectively contributed $10.6 billion in state and local taxes in 2010 -- mostly through sales and excise taxes, but also via property and income taxes -- and that that number could jump to more than $12.6 billion."

derp

Avatar image for dave123321
#44 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

@LJS9502_basic: I have a different viewpoint on the net effects of illegal immigration is what it boils down to

Avatar image for vfibsux
#45 Edited by vfibsux (4497 posts) -

I'm just going to pretend this thread never happened. I was wrong, open up the floodgates, tacos for everyone!

Avatar image for dave123321
#46 Posted by dave123321 (35341 posts) -

@vfibsux: why did you give a link that didn't say what you said it said

Avatar image for thegerg
#47 Posted by thegerg (18329 posts) -

@vfibsux said:

I'm just going to pretend this thread never happened. I was wrong, open up the floodgates, tacos for everyone!

"I was wrong"

We already knew that.

"I'm just going to pretend this thread never happened."

Willful ignorance FTL.

Avatar image for LJS9502_basic
#48 Edited by LJS9502_basic (162466 posts) -

@dave123321 said:

@LJS9502_basic: I have a different viewpoint on the net effects of illegal immigration is what it boils down to

Did you do any research?

Avatar image for BeardMaster
#49 Edited by BeardMaster (1686 posts) -

@Serraph105 said:

So here is an idea that I came across the other day, a solution to illegal immigration is to raise the minimum wage. Many people believe that illegal immigration is a net negative on the economy, (I actually believe the opposite, but for the purposes of this thread I’m looking at it from their point of view). It’s fairly well known that illegal immigrants take a lot of jobs that Americans don’t want due to the low pay. The thought is that if we raise the pay of those jobs enough, legal Americans will actually want to take them thus removing an incentive for people to immigrate in the first place.

So what do you guys think? Would this be an effective plan?

And thats where you made the mistake. So here is the thing, ive hired electricians to rewire my house... most the quotes came in at around $100 an hour for labor costs. So thats what i paid, i didnt want to pay that.. i wanted to pay minimum wage, or ideally nothing. But i didnt conclude "americans dont want to be electricians" as a result. Instead i concluded thats the fair market wage and thats what I have to pay to obtain said services.

Avatar image for -Sun_Tzu-
#50 Edited by -Sun_Tzu- (17384 posts) -

@LJS9502_basic said:

@dave123321 said:

@LJS9502_basic: I have a different viewpoint on the net effects of illegal immigration is what it boils down to

Did you do any research?

No he just flipped a coin.