Pope Francis Excommunicates the Mafia

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#1  Edited By Makhaidos
Member since 2013 • 2162 Posts

http://www.episcopalcafe.com/lead/religion_in_the_news/pope_francis_excommunicates_ma.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+episcopalcafe+(Episcopal+Cafe)

Also, I just love the picture in this article.

"Oh, you want to kill people and go to church?

"Bye, motherfucker!"

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Master_Live

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#2 Master_Live
Member since 2004 • 20510 Posts

Only a man with a direct line to God could accomplish such a feat. How about getting going on excommunicating the pedophiles on your Church.

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deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d

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#3  Edited By deactivated-5acfa3a8bc51d
Member since 2005 • 7914 Posts

Pope Francis is an artist

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#4  Edited By lamprey263
Member since 2006 • 44749 Posts

Cool, this guy is all about making waves on the side of right where his predecessors didn't possess the courage to do so.

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deeliman

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#5 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts

And what is this supposed to accomplish?

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#6 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

Purely symbolic and will probably be quite meaningless.

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LJS9502_basic

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#7 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178895 Posts

@airshocker said:

Purely symbolic and will probably be quite meaningless.

It's not symbolic or meaningless to someone that is a practicing Catholic....

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chaplainDMK

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#8 chaplainDMK
Member since 2008 • 7004 Posts

@deeliman said:

And what is this supposed to accomplish?

Italians and the Mafia are generally pretty religious. When a mobster becomes a "made man", e.g. is actually a full member of a mafia family, he will perform a ritual where he will swore to Omerta while a picture of a saint is burned.

Though I suspect the number of mobsters that really care about this is pretty low, but back in the 20s, 30s and 40s, this would probably have been catastrophic, considering the state was already crunching down on them badly under Mussolini.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#9 deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

@airshocker said:

Purely symbolic and will probably be quite meaningless.

It's not symbolic or meaningless to someone that is a practicing Catholic....

Sure it is. It doesn't do a damn thing. It doesn't change anything. It's not going to make those who are a part of the mafia stop. It's not even going to result in any excommunications unless someone can be proven they are part of the mafia.

It doesn't bring any moral authority to the catholic religion, either. It's purely symbolic.

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LJS9502_basic

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#10 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178895 Posts

@airshocker said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

@airshocker said:

Purely symbolic and will probably be quite meaningless.

It's not symbolic or meaningless to someone that is a practicing Catholic....

Sure it is. It doesn't do a damn thing. It doesn't change anything. It's not going to make those who are a part of the mafia stop. It's not even going to result in any excommunications unless someone can be proven they are part of the mafia.

It doesn't bring any moral authority to the catholic religion, either. It's purely symbolic.

Nope...it's not. But I doubt you'll get it since you're not Catholic. Obviously these individuals were.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#11 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

Who specifically has been excommunicated?

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Jackc8

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#12  Edited By Jackc8
Member since 2007 • 8515 Posts

Funny because if you look at the history of the Vatican they make organized crime guys like like freakin' angels in comparison. They were truly one of the most corrupt and bloodthirsty outfits in the history of the world.

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chessmaster1989

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#13  Edited By chessmaster1989
Member since 2008 • 30203 Posts

The Pope's gonna make them an offer they can't refuse

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Open-Casket

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#14 Open-Casket
Member since 2014 • 72 Posts

Cool? I honestly don't know why I came in here.

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#15  Edited By Riverwolf007
Member since 2005 • 26023 Posts

so is this just talk or is he going to shutdown the vatican bank which is up to it's eyeballs in mafia (among other) money laundering?

http://www.businessinsider.com/vatican-bank-money-laundering-2014-3

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25831234

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/455195/Pope-s-accountant-charged-with-using-Vatican-bank-to-launder-millions

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/01/21/us-vatican-bank-monsignor-idUSBREA0K0DE20140121

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/01/23/vatican-money-laundering-tax-charges-ensnare-flashy-monsignor/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/opinion/cleaning-up-the-vatican.html?_r=0

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#16 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

How does one excommunicate an ill defined group of criminals? Does it really even matter to Catholics that they've been excommunicated? Sounds like something a 15 year old girl does on Facebook to her friends when she defriends them.

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Mcspanky37

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#17 Mcspanky37
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@HoolaHoopMan said:

How does one excommunicate an ill defined group of criminals? Does it really even matter to Catholics that they've been excommunicated? Sounds like something a 15 year old girl does on Facebook to her friends when she defriends them.

The Mafia is anything but ill-defined. They're quite pronounced, evident, and distinct in their existence - particularly in Italy.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#18  Edited By deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

@airshocker said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

@airshocker said:

Purely symbolic and will probably be quite meaningless.

It's not symbolic or meaningless to someone that is a practicing Catholic....

Sure it is. It doesn't do a damn thing. It doesn't change anything. It's not going to make those who are a part of the mafia stop. It's not even going to result in any excommunications unless someone can be proven they are part of the mafia.

It doesn't bring any moral authority to the catholic religion, either. It's purely symbolic.

Nope...it's not. But I doubt you'll get it since you're not Catholic. Obviously these individuals were.

I was born roman catholic. I don't practice for very good reasons. This doesn't make me want to go to my local church and repent my heathen ways.

If it doesn't sway me, and I'm not anti-religious in the slightest, then I doubt it's going to do much for anybody else.

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-Sun_Tzu-

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#19  Edited By -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

@Mcspanky37 said:

@HoolaHoopMan said:

How does one excommunicate an ill defined group of criminals? Does it really even matter to Catholics that they've been excommunicated? Sounds like something a 15 year old girl does on Facebook to her friends when she defriends them.

The Mafia is anything but ill-defined. They're quite pronounced, evident, and distinct in their existence - particularly in Italy.

Why doesn't Frank name names then?

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#20 dave123321
Member since 2003 • 35553 Posts

Why don't you practice, air

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#21  Edited By Mcspanky37
Member since 2010 • 1693 Posts

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@Mcspanky37 said:

@HoolaHoopMan said:

How does one excommunicate an ill defined group of criminals? Does it really even matter to Catholics that they've been excommunicated? Sounds like something a 15 year old girl does on Facebook to her friends when she defriends them.

The Mafia is anything but ill-defined. They're quite pronounced, evident, and distinct in their existence - particularly in Italy.

Why doesn't Frank name names then?

Because the Mafia consists of more than 5 people?...

That would be quite an event, Pope Francis individually reading off thousands of full names of people he's excommunicating.

Good joke though. There are many parts of Italy where you can't even go as far as to run as business unless you're regularly paying the Mafia money. Hell - the Mafia is so ingrained into their government and culture, they're practically integral and they're definitely invincible. Don't underestimate the Mafia, they're very real and they're not vague in the least - they're simply untouchable.

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commonfate

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#22 commonfate
Member since 2010 • 13320 Posts

He's not the first pope to recently say such a thing. It's a nice gesture, nothing more.

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#23 -Sun_Tzu-
Member since 2007 • 17384 Posts

@Mcspanky37 said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@Mcspanky37 said:

@HoolaHoopMan said:

How does one excommunicate an ill defined group of criminals? Does it really even matter to Catholics that they've been excommunicated? Sounds like something a 15 year old girl does on Facebook to her friends when she defriends them.

The Mafia is anything but ill-defined. They're quite pronounced, evident, and distinct in their existence - particularly in Italy.

Why doesn't Frank name names then?

Because the Mafia consists of more than 5 people?...

That would be quite an event, Pope Francis individually reading off thousands of full names of people he's excommunicating.

Good joke though. There are many parts of Italy where you can't even go as far as to run as business unless you're regularly paying the Mafia money. Hell - the Mafia is so ingrained into their government and culture, they're practically integral and they're definitely invincible. Don't underestimate the Mafia, they're very real and they're not vague in the least - they're simply untouchable.

That's not what I'm saying, why hasn't he explicitly excommunicated the top of the 'Ndrangheta heirarchy, at the very least? Because if there's one thing that the mafia has always been good at it's plausible deniability. As every good Sicilian knows, there's no such thing as the mafia. These people are just misunderstood olive oil exporters.

If Frankie were to publicly denounce the leaders of this organization - that I think would mean something by removing whatever faux legitimacy these people have established within Sicily. Absent that though, this isn't really much more than the Vatican grabbing some good headlines without really doing anything. In other words, it doesn't come across as much more than a PR move.

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#24  Edited By ReadingRainbow4
Member since 2012 • 18733 Posts

Removing the child rapists within the church would probably be a kinder gesture.

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#25 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178895 Posts

@airshocker said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

@airshocker said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

@airshocker said:

Purely symbolic and will probably be quite meaningless.

It's not symbolic or meaningless to someone that is a practicing Catholic....

Sure it is. It doesn't do a damn thing. It doesn't change anything. It's not going to make those who are a part of the mafia stop. It's not even going to result in any excommunications unless someone can be proven they are part of the mafia.

It doesn't bring any moral authority to the catholic religion, either. It's purely symbolic.

Nope...it's not. But I doubt you'll get it since you're not Catholic. Obviously these individuals were.

I was born roman catholic. I don't practice for very good reasons. This doesn't make me want to go to my local church and repent my heathen ways.

If it doesn't sway me, and I'm not anti-religious in the slightest, then I doubt it's going to do much for anybody else.

I don't care how you "were born". You are using YOUR opinion to define this. Your opinion does not mean it's their opinion. Deal with it.

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#26  Edited By whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

I'm not sure if he actually excommunicated the "mafia" as these news reports are saying. First he was talking about the 'ndrangheta not the mafia, though he did use the word Mafiosi. The 'ndrangheta is more brutal than the mafia and is based in Calabria and Southern Italy, whereas the Mafia is more traditional and has a code of honor and is based in Sicily. The 'ndrangheta had made headlines in that region after a child was killed in a shooting.

The remarks Francis made were during his homily at a Mass during his Pastoral Visit to Cassano all' Jonio. The majority of his homily was about the feast of Corpus Domini (also known as Corpus Christi, Francis uses the phrase Corpus Domini in the homily). One paragraph deals with the 'ndrangheta:

Quando all’adorazione del Signore si sostituisce l’adorazione del denaro, si apre la strada al peccato, all’interesse personale e alla sopraffazione; quando non si adora Dio, il Signore, si diventa adoratori del male, come lo sono coloro i quali vivono di malaffare e di violenza. La vostra terra, tanto bella, conosce i segni e le conseguenze di questo peccato. La ’ndrangheta è questo: adorazione del male e disprezzo del bene comune. Questo male va combattuto, va allontanato! Bisogna dirgli di no! La Chiesa che so tanto impegnata nell’educare le coscienze, deve sempre di più spendersi perché il bene possa prevalere. Ce lo chiedono i nostri ragazzi, ce lo domandano i nostri giovani bisognosi di speranza. Per poter rispondere a queste esigenze, la fede ci può aiutare. Coloro che nella loro vita seguono questa strada di male, come sono i mafiosi, non sono in comunione con Dio: sono scomunicati!

So here Francis transitions from the main topic of the homily to contrast worship of God with what happens when worship of God is substituted for worship of money, opening up the path to sin. Pope Francis says when we don't adore God, the Lord, we become worshippers of evil. He mentions the 'ndrangheta as an example of this "worship of evil", when people worship money instead of God. He says of the 'ndrangheta "we must tell them no!" and that the Church knows the importance of educating consciences. The Pope says that faith can help people and that those who in their lives follow the path of evil - mentioning the "Mafiosi" (likely here referring to organized crime or gangsters, rather than to members of the mafia) are not in communion with God, rather they are "scomunicati" (excommunicated, or separated from God and the Church).

From my reading of the homily I don't think Francis was talking about juridical excommunication, he was making a point saying that those who follow evil are separated from God. I would say that the news reports are mistaken. I don't think Pope Francis was actually excommunicating anyone in the legal sense of the term. I think he was using the term as a metaphor.

Update: Vatican Radio has a translation of the Homily. Here is the section of the homily that I had quoted above:

When adoration of the Lord is substituted by adoration of money, the road to sin opens to personal interest ... When one does not adore the Lord, one becomes an adorer of evil, like those who live by dishonesty and violence. Your land, which so beautiful, knows the signs of the consequences of this sin. The ‘ndrangheta (Calabrian mafia) is this: adoration of evil and contempt of the common good. This evil must be fought, must be expelled. It must be told no. The Church, which is so committed to educating consciences, must always expend itself even more so that good can prevail. Our children ask this of us. Our young people ask this of us, they, who need hope. To be able to respond to this demands, faith can help us. Those who in their lives have taken this evil road, this road of evil, such as the mobsters, they are not in communion with God, they are excommunicated.

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#27 -Sun_Tzu-
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@whipassmt said:

From my reading of the homily I don't think Francis was talking about juridical excommunication, he was making a point saying that those who follow evil are separated from God. I would say that the news reports are mistaken. I don't think Pope Francis was actually excommunicating anyone in the legal sense of the term. I think he was using the term as a metaphor.

That makes much more sense.

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deactivated-6127ced9bcba0

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#28  Edited By deactivated-6127ced9bcba0
Member since 2006 • 31700 Posts

@LJS9502_basic said:

I don't care how you "were born". You are using YOUR opinion to define this. Your opinion does not mean it's their opinion. Deal with it.

You don't have to care. What do have to do is recognize that you were wrong in saying I wasn't a roman catholic. Of course I'm using my opinion. Just like you are.

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#29 Bikouchu35
Member since 2009 • 8344 Posts

I respect him now as much as GabeN and Lord Kaz.

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#30 GazaAli
Member since 2007 • 25216 Posts

I suspect that the number of fucks the Mafia reacted with to this news is minimal. Why would a "devout Christian" be involved with the Mafia lol

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#31  Edited By whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@whipassmt said:

From my reading of the homily I don't think Francis was talking about juridical excommunication, he was making a point saying that those who follow evil are separated from God. I would say that the news reports are mistaken. I don't think Pope Francis was actually excommunicating anyone in the legal sense of the term. I think he was using the term as a metaphor.

That makes much more sense.

Yeah. I don't see why Pope Francis would specifically excommunicate people for being members of the 'ndrangheta or the mafia, without having that excommunication to members of other crime syndicates like for instance the various Latin American crime syndicates. Besides Pope Francis is known for often speaking off the cuff and informally. Also I think if the Pope was intended to actually excommunicate all members of the 'ndrangheta he would do so in a formal document, not in a homily.

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#32 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts

@whipassmt said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@whipassmt said:

From my reading of the homily I don't think Francis was talking about juridical excommunication, he was making a point saying that those who follow evil are separated from God. I would say that the news reports are mistaken. I don't think Pope Francis was actually excommunicating anyone in the legal sense of the term. I think he was using the term as a metaphor.

That makes much more sense.

Yeah. I don't see why Pope Francis would specifically excommunicate people for being members of the 'ndrangheta or the mafia, without having that excommunication to members of other crime syndicates like for instance the various Latin American crime syndicates. Besides Pope Francis is known for often speaking off the cuff and informally. Also I think if the Pope was intended to actually excommunicate all members of the 'ndrangheta he would do so in a formal document, not in a homily.

Not to mention that excommunication is a very formal process. You can't simply just declare someone excommunicate. You have to give them written or verbal instruction on what they are doing that can be considered an excommunicatable offense and give them an opportunity and time period to amend their actions. If they refuse to amend then a formal writ of excommunication is drawn up and then presented to the individual. The church rarely does formal excommunications any more because it does separate that individual fully from the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. The church of course doesn't want to do this to anyone so they rarely do.

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#33 whipassmt
Member since 2007 • 15375 Posts

@ferrari2001 said:

@whipassmt said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@whipassmt said:

From my reading of the homily I don't think Francis was talking about juridical excommunication, he was making a point saying that those who follow evil are separated from God. I would say that the news reports are mistaken. I don't think Pope Francis was actually excommunicating anyone in the legal sense of the term. I think he was using the term as a metaphor.

That makes much more sense.

Yeah. I don't see why Pope Francis would specifically excommunicate people for being members of the 'ndrangheta or the mafia, without having that excommunication to members of other crime syndicates like for instance the various Latin American crime syndicates. Besides Pope Francis is known for often speaking off the cuff and informally. Also I think if the Pope was intended to actually excommunicate all members of the 'ndrangheta he would do so in a formal document, not in a homily.

Not to mention that excommunication is a very formal process. You can't simply just declare someone excommunicate. You have to give them written or verbal instruction on what they are doing that can be considered an excommunicatable offense and give them an opportunity and time period to amend their actions. If they refuse to amend then a formal writ of excommunication is drawn up and then presented to the individual. The church rarely does formal excommunications any more because it does separate that individual fully from the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. The church of course doesn't want to do this to anyone so they rarely do.

You would know more then me about that actual process, since you went to seminary. Basically excommunication is like a court procedure right, the person has to be tried and found guilty and then there are extenuating circumstances, etc. But there are the latae sententiae excommunications which occur automatically when someone commits specific offenses that don't go through all that process.

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#34 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts

@whipassmt said:

@ferrari2001 said:

@whipassmt said:

@-Sun_Tzu- said:

@whipassmt said:

From my reading of the homily I don't think Francis was talking about juridical excommunication, he was making a point saying that those who follow evil are separated from God. I would say that the news reports are mistaken. I don't think Pope Francis was actually excommunicating anyone in the legal sense of the term. I think he was using the term as a metaphor.

That makes much more sense.

Yeah. I don't see why Pope Francis would specifically excommunicate people for being members of the 'ndrangheta or the mafia, without having that excommunication to members of other crime syndicates like for instance the various Latin American crime syndicates. Besides Pope Francis is known for often speaking off the cuff and informally. Also I think if the Pope was intended to actually excommunicate all members of the 'ndrangheta he would do so in a formal document, not in a homily.

Not to mention that excommunication is a very formal process. You can't simply just declare someone excommunicate. You have to give them written or verbal instruction on what they are doing that can be considered an excommunicatable offense and give them an opportunity and time period to amend their actions. If they refuse to amend then a formal writ of excommunication is drawn up and then presented to the individual. The church rarely does formal excommunications any more because it does separate that individual fully from the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. The church of course doesn't want to do this to anyone so they rarely do.

You would know more then me about that actual process, since you went to seminary. Basically excommunication is like a court procedure right, the person has to be tried and found guilty and then there are extenuating circumstances, etc. But there are the latae sententiae excommunications which occur automatically when someone commits specific offenses that don't go through all that process.

Yea the formal process is very confusing, simply because it isn't hardly used. Now the Pope has 100% power in using formal excommunication, no procedures required, but if he were ever to issue one, obviously most the work would be done by his staff and they would really look into an individual before issue a public statement. They also almost always try to present both the error the person is committing and the excommunication itself in person. There isn't a body in the Church that is responsible for looking into an handing out excommunications. If it were to happen it would likely be the pope and a small group of staff that would assist him. Then there are obviously those offenses, obtaining an abortion, for example that result in an automatic excommunication from the church. It basically means you are a separated from the salvation of Christ. However no excommunication is permanent. In the case of a formal excommunication only the pope can bring you back into the church. For an informal excommunication, the sacrament of confession done in good conscience will restore you to grace.

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#35 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178895 Posts

@airshocker said:

@LJS9502_basic said:

I don't care how you "were born". You are using YOUR opinion to define this. Your opinion does not mean it's their opinion. Deal with it.

You don't have to care. What do have to do is recognize that you were wrong in saying I wasn't a roman catholic. Of course I'm using my opinion. Just like you are.

You're not....so I'm not wrong. It's that simple.