Millennials won't do unpaid work

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horgen

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#1 horgen  Moderator
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Entitled Millennials have been given an “inflated” sense of self-importance due to social media and are no longer willing to do unpaid work to advance their careers.

That’s the view of Muffin Break general manager Natalie Brennan, who says the precipitous decline in eager young university students and graduates started “about 10 years ago”.

“There’s just nobody walking in my door asking for an internship, work experience or unpaid work, nobody,” Ms Brennan said.

“You don’t see it anymore. Before that people would be knocking on your door all the time, you couldn’t keep up with how many people wanted to be working. In fact I’d run programs because there were so many coming in.”

Last year she had one intern in marketing and “that was it”. “I can’t even remember the one before that, six, seven, eight years ago,” she said.

“In essence they’re working for free, but I can tell you every single person who has knocked on my door for an internship or work experience has ended up with a job. Every single person, because they back themselves.”

Ms Brennan, who has been with franchise giant Foodco for 18 years, says that kind of passion is lacking these days.

“One fellow I hired, he was underqualified, completely not the right person, but he rang me every two weeks for six months,” she said.

“He said, ‘I will do anything, I’ll start at ground level.’ After six months I hired him, because you can’t teach passion and enthusiasm. He worked for five or six years and moved on to a high role in another company.”

These days, she notices candidates often walk in to interviews “thinking they’re better than the job”, immediately asking, “How long before I get my promotion? When is the first payrise?”

In one case after she ended the interview early, the candidate “sent me an abusive email saying I was underpaying, but then said, ‘If you pay X amount more I’ll come and work for you’”.

“People are clueless,” she said.

“Not only am I not going to hire you, I will tell everybody about you as well. That’s the thing people don’t realise — whatever industry you’re in, it’s a small industry.”

Ms Brennan says there is “this unreal view that you’re going to come into a company and be the general manager or CEO in five years”.

“Nowadays I will often put the actual pay on the (job listing) and say this is not negotiable, because you have a budget for a role,” she said.

“There might be $2000, $3000, $5000 flex for the right person, but generally it doesn’t matter if an amazing person comes in if you’re hiring for a junior role, you only have a junior role pay. But there are still people out there who come in and say, ‘I’m willing to work for junior wages to show what I’m worth.’”

Ms Brennan blames social media for the entitlement mentality.

“I think everybody thinks social media is going to get them ahead somewhere,” she said. “There’s definitely that inflated view of their self-importance because they have X amount of Instagram followers or this many likes. That’s dangerous.”

And that flows through into performance management. “It’s like, I’m your manager and your mentor but not your cheerleader,” she said.

“Even giving people constructive criticism about how they can learn or improve, it’s like someone is ‘unfriending’ them. It’s like a personal attack. This ability to learn and grow through working in an environment, people don’t want to do it anymore.”

She feels like young people want to be applauded or named “staff member of the month for doing their job”. “Great, you did your job, so you get to keep your job,” she said.

“I’m generalising, but it definitely feels like this generation of 20-somethings has to be rewarded even if it’s the most mundane, boring thing, they want to be rewarded for doing their job constantly.”

Ms Brennan recalls how, after she went overseas to a conference for two weeks, one of her subordinates demanded a payrise for “looking after the department” while she was gone.

“I said, ‘Actually you didn’t, I wasn’t on leave. You had maybe an extra 10 emails to deal with for two weeks. That was part of your job. If you had solved this problem or saved us money, that’s a thing to bring to me.’”

Oh the horror, it seems business owners won't be having unpaid workers anymore since no one is willing to do unpaid work.

So who is the entitled ones, really?

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#2 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@horgen:

Internship part of a testing it to see if person is fit and like the work before salary being committed to them.

A mutual accomplice he say he willing to work for free because it was in the field he seek to work in. This was 60-80k career job. Person who make offer to him say that he will be pay up front yet internship still do exist. It like a sign of good faith. My coworker say some people she know actually cost him this opportunity but let me ask about the details on that.

Millennials on a hand is not all to blame. Social media they make addiction to BUT who is make this social media’s platform for them? It not millennials it the generation or two before.

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SOedipus

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#3 SOedipus
Member since 2006 • 14796 Posts

Isn’t internship paid? It is for me. Placements are unpaid, but they’re part of school assessments.

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horgen

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#4 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127500 Posts

@x_karen_x: Difficult to do unpaid work when rent alone requires about a full time minimum wage job.

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#5  Edited By uninspiredcup  Online
Member since 2013 • 58800 Posts

To a degree, I agree.

You look at stuff like youtube, back in it's original incarnation people were uploading videos for fun.

Now, regardless of doing anything, "reacting", "playing a video game" or making a 10 minute video rambling what amounts to nothing, everyone has a Patreon, everyone wants clicks, everyone wants likes, everyone has merch, everyone wants something, begging at the start, begging at the end, begging in the description.

Give me, because.

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#6 JustPlainLucas
Member since 2002 • 80441 Posts
@horgen said:

Source

Entitled Millennials have been given an “inflated” sense of self-importance due to social media and are no longer willing to do unpaid work to advance their careers.

That’s the view of Muffin Break general manager Natalie Brennan, who says the precipitous decline in eager young university students and graduates started “about 10 years ago”.

“There’s just nobody walking in my door asking for an internship, work experience or unpaid work, nobody,” Ms Brennan said.

“You don’t see it anymore. Before that people would be knocking on your door all the time, you couldn’t keep up with how many people wanted to be working. In fact I’d run programs because there were so many coming in.”

Last year she had one intern in marketing and “that was it”. “I can’t even remember the one before that, six, seven, eight years ago,” she said.

“In essence they’re working for free, but I can tell you every single person who has knocked on my door for an internship or work experience has ended up with a job. Every single person, because they back themselves.”

Ms Brennan, who has been with franchise giant Foodco for 18 years, says that kind of passion is lacking these days.

“One fellow I hired, he was underqualified, completely not the right person, but he rang me every two weeks for six months,” she said.

“He said, ‘I will do anything, I’ll start at ground level.’ After six months I hired him, because you can’t teach passion and enthusiasm. He worked for five or six years and moved on to a high role in another company.”

These days, she notices candidates often walk in to interviews “thinking they’re better than the job”, immediately asking, “How long before I get my promotion? When is the first payrise?”

In one case after she ended the interview early, the candidate “sent me an abusive email saying I was underpaying, but then said, ‘If you pay X amount more I’ll come and work for you’”.

“People are clueless,” she said.

“Not only am I not going to hire you, I will tell everybody about you as well. That’s the thing people don’t realise — whatever industry you’re in, it’s a small industry.”

Ms Brennan says there is “this unreal view that you’re going to come into a company and be the general manager or CEO in five years”.

“Nowadays I will often put the actual pay on the (job listing) and say this is not negotiable, because you have a budget for a role,” she said.

“There might be $2000, $3000, $5000 flex for the right person, but generally it doesn’t matter if an amazing person comes in if you’re hiring for a junior role, you only have a junior role pay. But there are still people out there who come in and say, ‘I’m willing to work for junior wages to show what I’m worth.’”

Ms Brennan blames social media for the entitlement mentality.

“I think everybody thinks social media is going to get them ahead somewhere,” she said. “There’s definitely that inflated view of their self-importance because they have X amount of Instagram followers or this many likes. That’s dangerous.”

And that flows through into performance management. “It’s like, I’m your manager and your mentor but not your cheerleader,” she said.

“Even giving people constructive criticism about how they can learn or improve, it’s like someone is ‘unfriending’ them. It’s like a personal attack. This ability to learn and grow through working in an environment, people don’t want to do it anymore.”

She feels like young people want to be applauded or named “staff member of the month for doing their job”. “Great, you did your job, so you get to keep your job,” she said.

“I’m generalising, but it definitely feels like this generation of 20-somethings has to be rewarded even if it’s the most mundane, boring thing, they want to be rewarded for doing their job constantly.”

Ms Brennan recalls how, after she went overseas to a conference for two weeks, one of her subordinates demanded a payrise for “looking after the department” while she was gone.

“I said, ‘Actually you didn’t, I wasn’t on leave. You had maybe an extra 10 emails to deal with for two weeks. That was part of your job. If you had solved this problem or saved us money, that’s a thing to bring to me.’”

Oh the horror, it seems business owners won't be having unpaid workers anymore since no one is willing to do unpaid work.

So who is the entitled ones, really?

I think in the sense of moving a career forward, internships are a great test of a person's character. I mean, if I REALLY wanted to work for a company, I'd gladly take a free internship and live on a budget especially if I knew being underqualified working for free would end up with being chosen over a candidate who just wanted to work there for the money. Paid internships as a standard would be desirable, but again... nothing proves your character more than working for just for the honor of working with a company.

Think of it this way. Why do we have a post limit for new people? It's to keep people from just coming to our boards and spamming our boards and moving on. If people actually want to post here, they'll be posting by our rules and once they've proven themselves contributing members, they'll stick around. So, if you just hire anyone on without having them prove themselves, then what you'll see are people who just want to work for the money and the moment they find something that pays higher, they'll leave. But people who get hired on through internships tend to have a sense of gratitude for being given the chance and will stay with the companies longer.

@horgen said:

@x_karen_x: Difficult to do unpaid work when rent alone requires about a full time minimum wage job.

Yep, which is why paid internships would be desirable, but people find ways. I'd certainly stop buying video games and fast food and even borrow from my parents to pay my way through an internship if it meant a guaranteed spot in a company I really want to work for. It's called making sacrifices; risk and reward.

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#7 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@horgen:

It not the point. As example he work too but make *offer* to work for free like intern would. My coworker say people cost him this career opportunity but point is sacrifice can be make to get change and put yourself to better position. This what she say he do.

It possible your situation much different than maybe he was. It why you be nice not to intrude or assume what other plans might be. My coworker say people get in a way of his career. This not cool. Who know maybe they was millennials on social media lol.

As example if I work minimum wage job but make a form of saving to use as way to one day take risk in new field it can be done.

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deactivated-6068afec1b77d

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#8  Edited By deactivated-6068afec1b77d
Member since 2017 • 2539 Posts

People don't intern because they volunteer at charities and put them in their resume.

Their in a crossroads right now, they work, go to college and take care of old people at the same time. Back then the healthcare was much better but right now it cost millions. Capatialism at its finest. Capitalism will increase inequalities and then increase volience and anti-government movements, well if the government sides with the corporations. That's why people want a bigger government. A smaller government would give states more power.

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horgen

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#9 horgen  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 127500 Posts

@JustPlainLucas said:

I think in the sense of moving a career forward, internships are a great test of a person's character. I mean, if I REALLY wanted to work for a company, I'd gladly take a free internship and live on a budget especially if I knew being underqualified working for free would end up with being chosen over a candidate who just wanted to work there for the money. Paid internships as a standard would be desirable, but again... nothing proves your character more than working for just for the honor of working with a company.

Think of it this way. Why do we have a post limit for new people? It's to keep people from just coming to our boards and spamming our boards and moving on. If people actually want to post here, they'll be posting by our rules and once they've proven themselves contributing members, they'll stick around. So, if you just hire anyone on without having them prove themselves, then what you'll see are people who just want to work for the money and the moment they find something that pays higher, they'll leave. But people who get hired on through internships tend to have a sense of gratitude for being given the chance and will stay with the companies longer.

@horgen said:

@x_karen_x: Difficult to do unpaid work when rent alone requires about a full time minimum wage job.

Yep, which is why paid internships would be desirable, but people find ways. I'd certainly stop buying video games and fast food and even borrow from my parents to pay my way through an internship if it meant a guaranteed spot in a company I really want to work for. It's called making sacrifices; risk and reward.

US do not have trial periods? We have 6 months in Norway. I'm not disagreeing with internship being a good thing, just it being unpaid. It isn't possible for everyone. How well can one expect someone else to work, if working in your company requires another job just to get by? Lack of sleep together with being overworked only works for a short time. But is it good to use that time to see what a possible employee has to offer?

@x_karen_x said:

@horgen:

It not the point. As example he work too but make *offer* to work for free like intern would. My coworker say people cost him this career opportunity but point is sacrifice can be make to get change and put yourself to better position. This what she say he do.

It possible your situation much different than maybe he was. It why you be nice not to intrude or assume what other plans might be. My coworker say people get in a way of his career. This not cool. Who know maybe they was millennials on social media lol.

As example if I work minimum wage job but make a form of saving to use as way to one day take risk in new field it can be done.

The only thing I think is ridiculous is expecting people to work for free.

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#10 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@horgen:

It not ridiculous it show dedication to what you seek and a way to prove your worth.

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horgen

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#11 horgen  Moderator
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@x_karen_x said:

@horgen:

It not ridiculous it show dedication to what you seek and a way to prove your worth.

It shows dedication yes, but is it really something everyone can do? If it is part of college (as instead of classes and such) for a period I can understand it. However if said person needs a full time job besides the internship to live... Well I wouldn't expect much from that person really.

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#12 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@horgen:

If plan is make then yes. But it risky. As I say my coworker friend have people who cost him this opportunity. So long as when a risk it is prepare for anybody can make one.

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#13 horgen  Moderator
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@x_karen_x said:

@horgen:

If plan is make then yes. But it risky. As I say my coworker friend have people who cost him this opportunity. So long as when a risk it is prepare for anybody can make one.

It's still stupid imo. I guess you got no problem with starting positions requiring a few years of relevant work experience as well?

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#14 PimpHand_Gamer
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@horgen said:

Source

Entitled Millennials have been given an “inflated” sense of self-importance due to social media and are no longer willing to do unpaid work to advance their careers.

That’s the view of Muffin Break general manager Natalie Brennan, who says the precipitous decline in eager young university students and graduates started “about 10 years ago”.

“There’s just nobody walking in my door asking for an internship, work experience or unpaid work, nobody,” Ms Brennan said.

“You don’t see it anymore. Before that people would be knocking on your door all the time, you couldn’t keep up with how many people wanted to be working. In fact I’d run programs because there were so many coming in.”

Last year she had one intern in marketing and “that was it”. “I can’t even remember the one before that, six, seven, eight years ago,” she said.

“In essence they’re working for free, but I can tell you every single person who has knocked on my door for an internship or work experience has ended up with a job. Every single person, because they back themselves.”

Ms Brennan, who has been with franchise giant Foodco for 18 years, says that kind of passion is lacking these days.

“One fellow I hired, he was underqualified, completely not the right person, but he rang me every two weeks for six months,” she said.

“He said, ‘I will do anything, I’ll start at ground level.’ After six months I hired him, because you can’t teach passion and enthusiasm. He worked for five or six years and moved on to a high role in another company.”

These days, she notices candidates often walk in to interviews “thinking they’re better than the job”, immediately asking, “How long before I get my promotion? When is the first payrise?”

In one case after she ended the interview early, the candidate “sent me an abusive email saying I was underpaying, but then said, ‘If you pay X amount more I’ll come and work for you’”.

“People are clueless,” she said.

“Not only am I not going to hire you, I will tell everybody about you as well. That’s the thing people don’t realise — whatever industry you’re in, it’s a small industry.”

Ms Brennan says there is “this unreal view that you’re going to come into a company and be the general manager or CEO in five years”.

“Nowadays I will often put the actual pay on the (job listing) and say this is not negotiable, because you have a budget for a role,” she said.

“There might be $2000, $3000, $5000 flex for the right person, but generally it doesn’t matter if an amazing person comes in if you’re hiring for a junior role, you only have a junior role pay. But there are still people out there who come in and say, ‘I’m willing to work for junior wages to show what I’m worth.’”

Ms Brennan blames social media for the entitlement mentality.

“I think everybody thinks social media is going to get them ahead somewhere,” she said. “There’s definitely that inflated view of their self-importance because they have X amount of Instagram followers or this many likes. That’s dangerous.”

And that flows through into performance management. “It’s like, I’m your manager and your mentor but not your cheerleader,” she said.

“Even giving people constructive criticism about how they can learn or improve, it’s like someone is ‘unfriending’ them. It’s like a personal attack. This ability to learn and grow through working in an environment, people don’t want to do it anymore.”

She feels like young people want to be applauded or named “staff member of the month for doing their job”. “Great, you did your job, so you get to keep your job,” she said.

“I’m generalising, but it definitely feels like this generation of 20-somethings has to be rewarded even if it’s the most mundane, boring thing, they want to be rewarded for doing their job constantly.”

Ms Brennan recalls how, after she went overseas to a conference for two weeks, one of her subordinates demanded a payrise for “looking after the department” while she was gone.

“I said, ‘Actually you didn’t, I wasn’t on leave. You had maybe an extra 10 emails to deal with for two weeks. That was part of your job. If you had solved this problem or saved us money, that’s a thing to bring to me.’”

Oh the horror, it seems business owners won't be having unpaid workers anymore since no one is willing to do unpaid work.

So who is the entitled ones, really?

Unpaid roles are for padding your resume with experience for companies that don't actually need your service. They provide you something to do that is in your field of interest for YOUR experience benefit only in exchange they receive a benefit of extra help without having to ruin a budget. These companies usually don't actually need some kids inexperienced sorry ass. It's a fair trade that benefits both parties. Any failure to understand that is no better than the people illustrated in the article. Most companies need someone with some bit of experience, even if you have a degree. They don't want to hold hands.

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#15 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@horgen:

I not understanding your question.

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#16 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36039 Posts

Maybe it's just because my feelings towards money have changed pretty drastically in recent years, but this article reads like satire and it doesn't help that the website looks more like an entertainment website rather than something professional.

That said, yes, you have to fucking pay people if you want them to do a job. It's not unreasonable, it's a basic expectation of doing work and this woman got used to the recession where people would do anything to get a job which essentially means she got used to taking advantage of people and making larger profits for her company than ever before, but now that the labor market has improved she's having people who have different (aka better) expectations for themselves and "Oh woah is me" is her attitude. **** her.

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#17 djoffer
Member since 2007 • 1856 Posts

Lol the entire idea of working without getting paied is ridiculous imo... I like my job, but no way in hell would I do it for no money. And yeah if my current employer or any further ones aren’t happy with my performance they can fire my ass

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#18 PimpHand_Gamer
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@djoffer said:

Lol the entire idea of working without getting paied is ridiculous imo... I like my job, but no way in hell would I do it for no money. And yeah if my current employer or any further ones aren’t happy with my performance they can fire my ass

That's not what people working without pay is about. It's for those wanting to get into a specific career path but need experience in order to get their foot in the door. Also the networking you gain from knowing those within the industry. These are usually hard to get into type career jobs that often pay very well once you're in. Only certain companies usually even offer non-pay positions, it's a trade that benefits both parties.

One example is new licensed lawyers out of college in big cities where there are big paying law firms will attempt to get their foot in the doory by working for free to gain the experience required by such firms. Sometimes they work free for a few years but the payoff is huge when a 27-30 year old is suddenly making well into 6 figures after a few years of working for nothing. Since many out of college grads may live at home, and considering the alternatives. The long game is sometimes a much better option.

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#19 Byshop  Moderator
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@horgen: There's a lot to unpack there. I agree with a lot of what she's saying about how some people can be pretty entitled and have an inflated idea of their own worth. The stuff about asking when you can get your first promotion/raise in your initial interview, trying to negotiate salary in an entry level position, etc is pretty crappy. I've interviewed a lot of folks in my life and some of them were humble and hungry while others had massive egos. I tend to see this more in the subcontractors we get from hiring companies that we might bring on in a staff augmentation role. Some of the subks I've seen had huge egos about their own ability, which makes me wonder if that's the reason they end up doing subk work because their temperament probably wouldn't suit them in a long term position.

The part of the article I disagree with is the idea that not wanting to work for free is about being being entitled. If you expect someone to work for you, they should expect compensation for that work. It may not be a lot, but it should be something (said the volunteer moderator to the other volunteer moderator). =)

@JustPlainLucas said:

I think in the sense of moving a career forward, internships are a great test of a person's character. I mean, if I REALLY wanted to work for a company, I'd gladly take a free internship and live on a budget especially if I knew being underqualified working for free would end up with being chosen over a candidate who just wanted to work there for the money. Paid internships as a standard would be desirable, but again... nothing proves your character more than working for just for the honor of working with a company.

I disagree.

@JustPlainLucas said:

Yep, which is why paid internships would be desirable, but people find ways. I'd certainly stop buying video games and fast food and even borrow from my parents to pay my way through an internship if it meant a guaranteed spot in a company I really want to work for. It's called making sacrifices; risk and reward.

This sentence sums up the multiple issues I have with unpaid internships. Someone taking an unpaid internship position ins't necessarily a measure of their character, it's more of a measure of how good a candidate's support system is that they can afford to work for free for a while. There are plenty of people out there who literally cannot afford to not be compensated for their time. It doesn't matter how smart or qualified those candidates might be, because the position will go to the kid who can live off his parents for 6 months.

And that "guaranteed spot" is a carrot that many companies dangle in front of interns but it's never really guaranteed. Even assuming the company you're going to work for is on the level and intends to treat their interns fairly you still have to work out an an employee, so you could still end up with nothing for your time. But it's also a leap of faith on the part of the intern that their "employer" isn't just trying to use them for free labor, as many have. There are instances of people who put in 40 hours a week for 6 months, only to get booted out the door the day before the company would legally be required to start paying them. Fox Searchlight got sued in a pretty high profile case over how they treated their unpaid interns (which is to say they treated/used them exactly like their paid counterparts but without actually paying them).

-Byshop

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#20 Serraph105
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@pimphand_gamer said:
@djoffer said:

Lol the entire idea of working without getting paied is ridiculous imo... I like my job, but no way in hell would I do it for no money. And yeah if my current employer or any further ones aren’t happy with my performance they can fire my ass

That's not what people working without pay is about. It's for those wanting to get into a specific career path but need experience in order to get their foot in the door. Also the networking you gain from knowing those within the industry. These are usually hard to get into type career jobs that often pay very well once you're in. Only certain companies usually even offer non-pay positions, it's a trade that benefits both parties.

One example is new licensed lawyers out of college in big cities where there are big paying law firms will attempt to get their foot in the doory by working for free to gain the experience required by such firms. Sometimes they work free for a few years but the payoff is huge when a 27-30 year old is suddenly making well into 6 figures after a few years of working for nothing. Since many out of college grads may live at home, and considering the alternatives. The long game is sometimes a much better option.

First off, if they were being paid to do that work they would still be getting the experience they need.

Second, this article is about a woman that works for a company called, "Muffin Break". They're not going to be getting experience at that company that gets them experience that they couldn't get just about anywhere else. And they would be getting paid at the same time as they get that experience.

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deactivated-5de67c4d9cb12

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#21 deactivated-5de67c4d9cb12
Member since 2019 • 392 Posts

Didn't finish reading the article. By the time they mentioned Muffin Break I felt it could only be satire.

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#22 Byshop  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 20504 Posts

@Serraph105 said:
@pimphand_gamer said:

That's not what people working without pay is about. It's for those wanting to get into a specific career path but need experience in order to get their foot in the door. Also the networking you gain from knowing those within the industry. These are usually hard to get into type career jobs that often pay very well once you're in. Only certain companies usually even offer non-pay positions, it's a trade that benefits both parties.

One example is new licensed lawyers out of college in big cities where there are big paying law firms will attempt to get their foot in the doory by working for free to gain the experience required by such firms. Sometimes they work free for a few years but the payoff is huge when a 27-30 year old is suddenly making well into 6 figures after a few years of working for nothing. Since many out of college grads may live at home, and considering the alternatives. The long game is sometimes a much better option.

First off, if they were being paid to do that work they would still be getting the experience they need.

Second, this article is about a woman that works for a company called, "Muffin Break". They're not going to be getting experience at that company that gets them experience that they couldn't get just about anywhere else. And they would be getting paid at the same time as they get that experience.

Yeah, that's the thing. Whether they get paid for their time doesn't change the benefit they'd get. If they are doing actual work, they should be compensated for that work. We have intern positions at my company. They don't pay much. I think maybe around $20 an hour tops. That works out to about 40k a year if they are full time, but if they work out and they can start making a lot more pretty quickly. Intern programs come in all kinds of shapes and sizes. If you're there for a day or two a week, your time spent there is real training that benefits you, that's one thing. But if they expect you to put in 40 or more hours a week doing actual, productive work, then they should expect to have to pay you a fair wage.

Everything Pimphand is saying about the potential benefits of these positions is true, and the payoff might totally be worth it if you can swing working for free for a few months/years, but that doesn't mean that company isn't taking advantage of you and it screws over candidates who can't afford to work for free.

-Byshop

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#23  Edited By qx0d
Member since 2018 • 333 Posts

Employers shouldn't be requiring experience in the first place. They should be training people who apply to the jobs. Telling people to work without pay, in order to get experience, is absurd. No, you train the people who apply. That's how it should be. Many jobs are blocked off to the public now days, and its because you see something saying "2 years experience required."

I would love to see a new law, a law where employers have to train applicants. There's no reason someone would need experience for a job anyway. You should be trained on what to do by your employer, before you start.

If it's a construction job, for example, employers should show the applicants how to use a hammer and nail. If employers can't do that, then they must be pretty stupid. People have to be shown what to do in the first place, to work at any job. No one is born knowing it. Employers will show you what to do anyway, so prior experience is pointless.

I get the feeling employers are either too lazy, or too dumb, to train you. And like I said, having prior experience is pointless. The boss is going to have to show you what to do anyway, before you start. You don't need experience.

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#24 deactivated-5f3ec00254b0d
Member since 2009 • 6278 Posts

Working for free is something that I never did and would never do. When I'm working I'm selling my time, so I expect to be paid.

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npiet1

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#25 npiet1
Member since 2018 • 3576 Posts

Oh no, teenagers wont work for nothing at muffin break.

I could understand if it was a huge company where working their would be someone's dream but that's not going to happen at muffin break. Most people need money to live.

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#26  Edited By Jackamomo
Member since 2017 • 2157 Posts

Such disgusting language from that Muffin Break manager. Expecting people to phone her up over and over again, literally begging for work.

Money just doesn't go that far these days.

Working for peanuts makes no sense because you know hardly anyone goes up the ranks in these companies and those that do are just brown nosing.

They used to have a thing called apprenticeships which was well paid work that taught you the required skills with an assured job at the end.

It is wrong to make people work for nothing. AKA the games industry.

But the US airline industry can't get enough pilots to commit to the expense of becoming one these days and it's a real problem that industry is facing.

As a graphic designer this this a huge problem. If you don't stand your ground and refuse to work for below minimum wage you have just ended your career right there. "Do this for free and more work might come." Is just people trying to squeeze as much out of you as possible. Only when you take control of negotiations do you have a chance of even having a career.

Networking? More work might come? Give me a break.

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Deathscyth-Hell

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#27 Deathscyth-Hell
Member since 2004 • 246 Posts

First off, millenials are nearing 30. Some 22yr-old fresh college grad is not a millenial.

Second, everything needs to be reciprocal. If an unpaid internship will lead to a good-paying career, then obviously its worth doing. The problem is that employers have been abusing the "work unpaid for me now and i'll get you a good job after" - by saying that, but then not appearing with a job later. They'll make excuses as to why they aren't holding up their end of the promise, but at the end of the day, thats what it is. Think about how the employer will think if a customer says, "give me your product for free, and if its good enough, I'll come buy more". Yes, we have "samples", but "free" samples are being phased out too. In my industry samples cost about %20 of the full cost and has so many restrictions anyways.

Oh well.

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#28 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

The only people who are entitled are those that expect labor free of charge. Every company I've worked for that has internships pays them, well I might add. Companies that don't are shit.

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#29  Edited By Baconstrip78
Member since 2013 • 1852 Posts

@x_karen_x: That’s what “at will” employment is. No need to expect unpaid slave labor on top of it. You’re not handing out a job guarantee for 35 years and a pension anymore.

I’m 40 and I would have never taken a job for zero pay.

Good on millennials for standing up for themselves. Our parents’ selfish scumbag generation already robbed us of jobs with pensions, paid leave, reasonably priced college and healthcare, and soon likely social security and the ability to ever retire. Now these old fucks want us to work for free too.

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#30 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@Baconstrip78:

You sound delusional. I not even know where to start it like you try and make point from nothing.

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#31 Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 36039 Posts

@x_karen_x said:

@Baconstrip78:

You sound delusional. I not even know where to start it like you try and make point from nothing.

Sounds to me like he's spot on, but maybe you could point out at least one of his points that you disagree with.

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#32 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@Serraph105:

Making something from nothing. It not relate to what I say.

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#33 Wolfgang133
Member since 2011 • 83 Posts

It depends on how well you can afford to work for free. It's not entitlement but pure economic necessity. Not everybody out there wants to work for free. I say it's businesses that feel entitled if they expect someone to work for free. Or just being exploitative by taking advantage of free labor. A lot of these companies would like to get by with paying little or nothing for something.

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#34  Edited By mirgamer
Member since 2003 • 2489 Posts

Working for free is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. I can imagine this would have been the norm when times are so desperate that people would do anything just to give them an edge for being fully employed by a company over another candidate.

But to expect that as a standard is ridiculous. Its exploitative, the company take your labor with ZERO guarantees that they will hire you. You are basically agreeing to be a slave.

OTOH, some of the millenials DO have inflated sense of self-importance and misplaced confidence, both not necessarily bad things but if you think you are better than the job, thats not a good mindset.

She is right in that you dont expect to get rewarded just because you did your job, thats what your salary is for.

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#35 redviperofdorne
Member since 2016 • 490 Posts

If you expect people to work for you for free then you deserve to lose your business. It's exploitive and laughable to think that way, Especially in this day and age. How about this, We tell that boss to go without wages as long as their intern does and see what she has to say about that. I mean, She is earning experience, right?

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#36 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@redviperofdorne:

In corporation maybe but in family business it not the same thing. Work for free happen in independent business all the time it often what separate good business from bad one, for customer. It a problem in how most American is raise.

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#37 Speeny
Member since 2018 • 3357 Posts

It’s true.

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#38  Edited By redviperofdorne
Member since 2016 • 490 Posts

@x_karen_x: It's different for a family business to some degree, I'll give you that, but it's still not something I agree with. As I said in my post, That boss/owner is still getting paid, You aren't. So you could make a case that they are simply taking advantage of the family for their own means.

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#39 kriggy
Member since 2008 • 1314 Posts

Well i'm not gonna tell you my entire story because nobody here would believe me but... Some companies really want you to keep working for free even after the internship. They don't give two cents if you're going to be able to pay your bills or not and they get furious when you say that you feel like leaving because you want to get paid. That's a reduced version of my experience of work directly out of college. And the company i'm talking about is no small company by any chance, it moves approximately 20 billion SEK each year... I'm glad I ditched that sinking ship...

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#40 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@redviperofdorne:

A little go a long way. In business with two farmer if I buy 10 dozen egg from farmer (a) and 10 dozen egg from farmer (b). If problem happen with some egg and farmer (a) come to deliver to fix a problem on their end (unpay work) and farmer (b) say I have to spend money on travel to fix problem, I will forever do business with farmer (a) even if farmer (b) have cheaper price.

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#41 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts

Never experienced nor would I ever agree to work without payment irregardless of how big the carrot on the other end of the stick might be.

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#42 dreman999
Member since 2004 • 11514 Posts

@JustPlainLucas: what the Hell are you taking about? People find ways? B's. That ia nothing but delution.

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#43 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23021 Posts

**** 'em. I'm sick of employers wringing as much as they can out of me and then claiming their workforce is entitled.

3 years into my career we went on a hiring freeze due to the recession. As my team dwindled to half it's normal numbers, the workload actually increased to the point that most of us were working double shifts every day. I worked weekends to produce a suite of automated testing tools that decreased our bug introduction rate by 80% and brought our average workweek down to a manageable ~45 hours a week.

They fired half of us and we were working double shits again.

We're going through something similar at my current company that I won't get into, but screw this entire mentality.

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#44 npiet1
Member since 2018 • 3576 Posts

@mattbbpl: no overtime laws?

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#45 mattbbpl
Member since 2006 • 23021 Posts

@npiet1 said:

@mattbbpl: no overtime laws?

Salary and IT. Overtime laws are lax for salary employees, and IT jobs are exempt from even most of those.

We work what they ask us to work or we get fired.

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#46 Byshop  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 20504 Posts

@x_karen_x said:

@redviperofdorne:

A little go a long way. In business with two farmer if I buy 10 dozen egg from farmer (a) and 10 dozen egg from farmer (b). If problem happen with some egg and farmer (a) come to deliver to fix a problem on their end (unpay work) and farmer (b) say I have to spend money on travel to fix problem, I will forever do business with farmer (a) even if farmer (b) have cheaper price.

That is a completely unrelated scenario to anything being discussed in this thread. What your describing is customer service, but that happens outside of the agreement between an employer and their employees regarding payment. What we're talking about would be more like if the farmer paid a helper to work on his farm for an hourly wage, but then asked that same helper to work another 8 hours that day for no pay but instead some vague promise that it will benefit the helper in others ways later. The farmer is clearly getting a benefit in the form of the free work. The helper, not so much.

-Byshop

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#47  Edited By Articuno76
Member since 2004 • 19799 Posts

The problem here is the value proposition from employers is poor and they don’t realise it.

Vapid offers of making contacts, getting invaluable experience and so on are not guaranteed (contractually or otherwise) and depend a lot on luck (and the worker’s own efforts). Further, employers may simply never deliver on their promises of promotions and raises in the long-term, opting instead to outsource, downsize, or otherwise consolidate.

In other words, if employers want us to believe they can offer us this and that up they have to offer it up front — after all, they reap immediate productivity benefits, so why should candidates expect delayed compensation?

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#48 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@Byshop:

It not at all unrelated. Comparison show this. It emphasize where a business taking loss, going out of their business way, build customer loyalty. It ALL service. Farmer produce product for new sale.

As example if you own a bar or restaurant you do work until work is done. As example it not at all uncommon for bar to have busy day and it worker mostly pay by tip. If so busy the bar still need to be put back together for business the next day. If it workers gain many many tip they understand need to help. Even tho tip is money it not come from owner, so they help off clock in order to have operational business for more good tip the next day.

In corporate world yes it true because lawsuit, but not all business work this way. It just reality.

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#49 Byshop  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 20504 Posts

@x_karen_x said:

@Byshop:

It not at all unrelated. Comparison show this. It emphasize where a business taking loss, going out of their business way, build customer loyalty. It ALL service. Farmer produce product for new sale.

As example if you own a bar or restaurant you do work until work is done. As example it not at all uncommon for bar to have busy day and it worker mostly pay by tip. If so busy the bar still need to be put back together for business the next day. If it workers gain many many tip they understand need to help. Even tho tip is money it not come from owner, so they help off clock in order to have operational business for more good tip the next day.

In corporate world yes it true because lawsuit, but not all business work this way. It just reality.

Your grammar is pretty broken, but I think I get what you're saying for the most part.

No, it's very unrelated. What a business does to retain its customers has nothing to do with whether a company pays its employees. If the employer decides to offer discounts to customers or free product, that's a business decision done to try to promote more paying business in the future. That doesn't mean the employees should agree to work for free to make up that lost revenue. Anything done to benefit the business benefits whoever owns the business, but not the people who work for it. If you are a farmer, you work for yourself so you own your business. All the costs and profits are yours. If you are a small business owner, then that business is something that belongs to you. You can choose to pay yourself whatever you want, and if you choose to pay yourself less or spend time working for free that benefits the business that you own so it helps you in the long run. However, if you don't own any part of the business, then any time you spend working for that business without pay help the business and business owners at your expense. You could quit or get fired tomorrow, and all those extra hours you worked get you nothing while they helped your former employers. It's a great deal for the employers, but it sucks for the employees.

Tipped positions are a different animal because most of your income doesn't come from direct pay from your employer, but that's a whole different can of worms we can get into. The topic of this thread was around unpaid internships, which are not tipped positions so this is not relevant.

-Byshop

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#50 X_Karen_x
Member since 2019 • 501 Posts

@Byshop:

It all relate. Tip is very widespread in business it all in a same. Business it business. Worker willing to work for free because they see monetary benefit if they do but regardless their employer not give them this money all the time.

If you think there no such thing is unreported labor you must be crazy?. People has forgotten in competition. When business function better it get more business and opponent suffer. In America and maybe an extreme example but it a thing call minimum wage. Where is iPhone make? It produce in China. Hourly wage from these people it much less than what it cost to make in America. That another can of worm but point is to compare way corporation undercut competition. It why everything is make overseas and not here. Small business bend rule in own country. Corporation do same thing only over sea. More can of worm to bring off topic.

Does you think lawyer not work outside of firm on their own time, on case? Or only when at office? Yes a silly job and more worm, but it a point to be make that a skill lawyer is doing research out of normal hour.

Or let say a sport star like Stephen Curry or Lebrun James. They pay to come to schedule practice and play in schedule game. Any time of extra practice it there own time. See a point here?