Megachurch pastor indicted on $3.5 million dollar fraud! God Bless

Pastor Kirbyjon Caldwell who is a former religious adviser to President George W. Bush has been accuse of defrauding millions of dollars.

Banks the real Churches! but it's sort of sad how "religions" are so cruel and think, because they follow certain religions they are above the law. as this isn't that common, it does happen often enough. at least once a month I hear of someone abusing their power regarding religion and money, so, perhaps it is more common than I once thought. let's hope the dude is held accountable for his actions, sometimes, a tiny bit more money funneled to the right channels makes all their troubles go away.

God loves money?

This is what happens when tithing becomes a commercial enterprise. I never liked these "mega-churches" to begin with - it's supposed to be about a common community, not money.

All these pastors/preachers that preach about money or owning private jets/luxury cars/luxury mansions are all fraudster. :P

Just because the good lord decided to bestow upon this pastor millions of dollars now the new world order Satanists wants to take away what God has gifted. No wonder frogs are turning gay. #flatearth

Drug companies won't cure your child's cancer, but your faith in God, put your money in the bucket.

@mattbbpl; This reminds me of the conversation we had about Christian leaders quickly cashing in on their brand for greater influence in the immediate term. In this case it was for wealth, but surely this will lead to some lessening of influence due to weakening trust. I'm beginning to wonder though if the brand will not so much shrink as it will shift from large churches to smaller ones in local communities throughout the country.

They need private jets! white people problems

If evil exist, it lies in the hearts of Man.

And people wonder why I don't go to Church and if I wanted to pray, I'll do it at my House! Don't get me wrong, there are good Churches out there, but NOT Mega Churches.

@Serraph105: Good call, there's been a degree of both. We can't deny that the brand is shrinking, as US society becomes increasingly secular each year, but there's also a small church movement occurring among the younger crowd that isn't prepared to give up their faith entirely.

It's fine by me. Prosperity theology is a blight on the community.

Ever since you called my attention to this it's kind of been fascinating to watch.

The mega-churches are the same as the regular ones, they're just more honest about it.

As much as I want to say these people didn't deserve it, they did by blinding trusting someone in such a "church." These types of people are suckers giving to the leeches. Jim Bakker got jammed up a few decades ago and he's back peddling over-priced crap to the gullible.

I'm sure some are, but certainly not all of them. A lot of them can't because of their bylaws and the way financing is performed.

Megachurch.

Not surprised.

Religion for the most part, has always been used to brainwash the poor to benefit the rich/elite.

Newsflash: The only way these con men can talk to god is on a private jet and, on occasion, god asks if you want a different plane. Copeland is right up there with Bakker, Stewart, the lady who looks like Jack Napier after bad surgery, etc..,

Jesus Christ are people stupid.

Are you taking the piss?

I've yet to see a church that didn't beg its members for money, telling them they need to do so to be right with god. How is what they do any different than selling people ways to raise their thetan levels? When I see priests living off donations of rice like Buddhist monks do then maybe I'll believe that it's not all a scam.

I'm playing Far Cry 5 and trust me, Religion is a very powerful thing that can brainwash the weak minded fools and turn it into a cult.

Another holier-than-thou Bible-thumping hypocrite. Throw him on the pile.

Here's the thing...it's sort of a full time JOB for a lot of people. I have a job, and I don't work for donations of rice. I work for money. If someone wants to run a church off of donations of rice, then fine. But rice won't buy/rent the property, rice won't keep it up to necessary public standards, rice won't pay people to work a full-time job there devoting their lives to their attendees. Yeah, it kind of IS selling people something that they want. Which I kind of don't see an inherent problem with. There's usually no mandatory service fee (to my knowledge, most churches don't turn you away if you don't "donate"), and people sort of WANT what the church provides or else they wouldn't be donating. You can argue that TOO MUCH money goes to the church leaders as opposed to benefitting the community, but the fact remains that if a "community" thought they were getting a bad deal then they're entirely free to simply go to a different church (or simply go to church without donating anything).

Regardless, this story is about defrauding people out of millions of dollars, not just asking people for donations. I'd hesitate to say that most churches are doing that. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if most churches are being run as if they're a business, because they kind of are businesses. It's work, it costs money to run, and people have to get paid or else it goes away. But there are a lot of legitimate businesses out there that aren't defrauding anyone, and I don't particularly see why churches would be an exception.

Eeeessh Religion is probably definitely the single most dumb thing on God's Green Earth.

no no no, you don't understand. god WANTS these pastors to be rich as a reflection of how glorious god is.

and you can help! just give a praise offering!

The lord helps those who help themselves I guess lol.

God hires the best people!

Etc.

"All religions have been made by man"

"Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich"

"If I had to choose a religion, the sun as the universal giver of life would be my god."

- All quotes by Napoléon Bonaparte.

That's terrible. People should be hold their leaders accountable to higher standards.

so what you're saying is there's an opening for a mega pastor at a mega church....

It's obviously going to depend on the churches in question, but the finances of a lot of such churches are handled exclusively by a committee of volunteer members. The pastor gets a (usually quite small) salary, the day to day operation costs such as maintenance are voted on by those members, they allocate funds for various long term commitment charities that they'd confident they can meet continually, and anything over what's necessary and planned for gets used for various other charities or events.

Just because churches aren't getting rich doesn't mean they're not taking advantage of their members. I've seen churches that operate like you describe and still press members to give more money than they can reasonably manage. That, or they'll make unreasonable demands of members' time, ask for uncompensated work, etc. I know I'm hopelessly cynical about this, but all I've seen from churches is take, take, take. I'd almost prefer the megachurches for the simple fact that they'd have enough expenses that they wouldn't have to constantly pressgang their members into donating their time and money, except for the fact that they still end up pressganging people and are almost always run by selfish, profit-driven slimeballs. That's one nice thing I'll say about normal churches, is that their pastors aren't outright slimeballs.

I'd like to point out that if churchgoers don't feel like they're getting enough in return for their donations of money and time, they're free to leave. I'm not a churchgoer myself, hell, I don't even follow any religions or believe in any gods. And from the perspective of someone who doesn't get anything out of church, it's really easy to imagine all churchgoers as just naive people who are being taken advantage of. But I sort of don't think that's the case. A lot of people HAPPILY go to church. They feel they get something out of it, and in exchange they're willing to provide some time and money in return. If they were just constantly taking and giving nothing, then you do realize that people are free to just leave, right?

All I can say is that until you've seen someone you care about being constantly taken advantage of because they think they have a moral duty to say yes, you wouldn't understand. I'd say the same thing about them wanting to go to church, how can you tell if they really want to if since they were kids they've gone because they were told they had to?

Okay. I also wouldn't understand the appeal of church since I've been to church and I've gotten nothing out of it. How exactly would you convince me that all churches are bullshit when I've personally seen perfectly happy people whose positive attitudes and generosity seemed to be genuinely influenced by their religion? Alternatively, how would some Churchy religious dude convince me that Jesus has all the answers when I know for a fact that church clearly isn't doing shit for a lot of scumbags?

Can we agree that church is for some people but not for others?

Anyway, there's just a really heavy aspect of elitism/snobbery when it comes to religion (or anti-religion) and it bugs the hell out of me because I feel that the people making the broadest generalizations are probably talking out of their asses. I'm sure that SOME churches are awful. I'm sure that SOME churches are genuinely helpful and don't just, as you say, simply "take, take, take." Because I've kind of seen both. I've also seen people who benefit heavily from church and religion. I've also seen people who get nothing out of it, or worse, have actually been harmed by it. But to paint all of it as being the same thing seems to be willfully ignorant, in my opinion.

Do you think that ALL religious church-going people are only deceived into thinking that they're getting something out of it because they were indoctrinated into the religion at a young age and/or because they believe they have a moral duty to go to church? Do you think that they're ALL brainwashed idiots and that you're the guy who has all the answers for them if they'd just listen and follow?

Me? I'm not that sure that my shit doesn't stink. I personally think that religion and church are bullshit, that's why I don't go. But that's based on the notion that church isn't right for ME. Like many people, religious and non-religious, I only "sort of" have my shit together. There are people far more successful/happy/generous/intelligent/compassionate than me who are actively involved in religion/church and whose involvement in religion/church seems to actually contribute to their being GOOD people. Can you answer this question for me: who the f*** am I to tell them that they're just brainwashed idiots who have been corrupted by the church when by all indications they are objectively BETTER PEOPLE than I am?

This whole anti-religion/anti-church thing seems to be EXACTLY the kind of thing that a religious person might say, only from the opposite perspective. "Oh, that guy rejects god, there must be something wrong with him." Well, how the hell would I as an atheist explain to such a person that I don't NEED god or religion or church and that I'm a good person without them? I probably CAN'T. They wouldn't understand, since they haven't been on that side of things.

In any case, I measure people by WORKS and ACTS over BELIEFS. Beliefs are f***ing easy. You wake up in the morning, you say to yourself, "I love god" or "religion is BS" and suddenly I'm now placing myself above everyone else without having to DO a single f***ing thing. That's way too close to the EXACT same attitude I've picked up from some of the biggest religious hypocrites I've met. I wouldn't want a religious church-goer to categorically paint all non-religious people as naive (or worse) and by that same standard I think it's f***ing bullshit for me to shit all over better people than me when I'm looking in as an outsider from the opposite side of the spectrum. If they're better people than me and they TELL ME that they're happy with religion and church, then who the hell am I to tell them that they are wrong?

Similarly, if I tell some religious Churchy dude that I'm happy as an atheist, who the hell is he to tell ME that I'm wrong? And that my failures as a human being are do to me not being close enough to God? I'd tell that guy to go f*** off because he doesn't know me or my circumstances. He doesn't understand, he can't understand, and he's being an asshole by placing himself on a pedestal because of his BELIEFS.

Different strokes for different folks, dude. Don't talk to me about what you've seen. I've seen church and religion both help people and hurt people. But at the end of the day, that's anecdotal freaking evidence and has zero bearing on whether or not church-goers are all brainwashed morons who only think they like church because they're incapable of making their own life choices.

How do you know those people are perfectly happy? Because they say they are? And how do you know their generosity comes from their religious beliefs? That seems quite a tricky hypothesis to prove.

Like I said, when I see a church that isn't constantly pressing members for money I'll change my mind. When I see a church that really tries to end poverty rather than just slapping a band-aid on it I'll change my mind. When I see a church that actually helps struggling people instead of telling them all their problems are their own fault I'll change my mind. Haven't seen any of that yet.

This isn't anti-religion and I didn't call them any names. They're perfectly able to go to church doing what they do how they want to do it, and I'm perfectly able to look at them and think they're all full of shit. Different strokes, different folks. That's what happens when people see the worst in religion, when we look at religion that's all we can see. I'm sure as hell not going to apologize for that.

Oh, so I take it that you regularly go to various churches, and actively get involved in order to find out what they're doing for the community and what the community feels about the church?

Because that would be a strange thing to do if you don't like church.

Regardless, if someone TELLS YOU that you're happy with ANYTHING, you can always find a way to believe that they're being pressured or brainwashed if that's what you're looking to have validated. By the same token, religious people are justified seeing the worst in atheists because that's all they ALLOW themselves to see. Hell, this works along racial lines too. If I actively avoid hanging out with [insert whatever race] because I think they're scumbags, then it's pretty easy to state that I've never seen a good one.

Point is, this is the kind of shit that you're supposed to take at face value. If someone tells me that they were inspired to be better people because of Jesus Christ or Martin Luther King or their parents, who the hell am I to say that that's not the case? I don't have the ability to see into ANYONE'S head, and it works the other way too. How many instances have you heard of religious people trying to "cure" the homosexuality out of their kids, all the while refusing to believe that being gay is just what's natural for them? Meanwhile, that guy over there only listens to [insert particular music band] because he wants to look popular. No way he could actually like them. Is this seriously your default setting when it comes to how you view People? At what point did you decide that you had the ability to see into peoples' minds and know whether or not they're happy with their life choices or if they're just deluding themselves because they've been brainwashed?

I've seen enough churches and heard enough about their behavior to justify my cynicism. The ones I have seen up close have been enough to permanently turn me off of the idea of religion, and the ones I've read about, the mythical ones that don't use religion as a cudgel against anything they find scary, they're even worse. They preach a bunch of lofty ideals, but then when they have members out on the street because of things that are largely out of their control they all turn back to the whole prosperity doctrine thing. They're always willing to talk a big game, but when it comes time to literally practice what they preach they act like everyone else. At least WBC is being honest, it's better than having a church tell you they're different only to find out they're really not.

Sure, you can find a way to spin anything any way you want, that's not the issue. The issue is that a very large portion of the world's population is told from the time they can understand, maybe before, that going to church is the right thing to do and if they don't do it they're not moral. In that scenario how can anyone tell if it's a legitimate choice? If a guy put a gun to my back and told me to eat junk food, play video games, watch movies, and play guitar all day every day or he'd kill me, is that a choice? Sure, 95% of the time I'd be perfectly happy, but maybe 5% I'd want to go for a walk or do something new. How could anyone really know, if they asked me I was happy and I said yes, that I was telling the truth?

And no, this isn't my default setting when it comes to viewing people, it's my default setting when it comes to viewing Christians.

Religion is big business these days and these so-called preachers know the ways in which to manipulate the parishioners which apparently isn't difficult.

Part of me thinks that if you are gullible enough to believe this sort of nonsense.
"For 100$ your sins will be absolved, but if you give me 1000$ then your family's sins gets absolved. If you give me enough for a Bugatti Veyron then you get 100 sin free years. Give now and be saved"

Then it's your own fault.

Pretty much this. If I wanna worship God, I'll do it for free at my house.

lol

Umm...are you aware of how many Christians don't go to church on a regular basis? Again, how many freaking Christians do you actually know? A hell of a lot of Christians go to church rarely if at all, dude. Do you REALLY think that all Christians are so stupid that they haven't yet figured out that they can be Christians while avoiding the churches that they think are shitty? How have you not realized that a lot of Christians DON'T go to church, at least on a regular basis? Yeah, a lot of churches suck. No shit, dude. That's part of why a lot of Christians don't go to them. Seriously, get off your high horse for a minute.