Limits of transgender?

What started this off was two events which have happened quite close to one another recently.

The first was a guy in my course at University was in fact not a guy but a woman. Or at least that is how she refers to herself and has a female name. BUT every single little thing about her is male. I've seen her on a pretty much weekly basis for the last two years and never once even had an inkling that it was a woman. I talked to her in passing once and may even have called her dude without even a second thought. I was physically shocked when I was told. Also it isn't like it is a feminine guy, it is a stocky, broad shouldered, very tall, deep voiced guy.

Then just now the woman who has won Eurovision 2014. I'd have kicked off about her winning anyway because the song was garbage, but she has a fully grown beard. I mean come on! How the **** can anyone take someone seriously when they call themselves a woman but don't even try to shave their beard off?

I understand that some people are born in such a way that gender can be a little bit harder to place on the surface. Like a particularly masculine woman or feminine man, that is just the roll of the dice and frankly no matter what they decide to call themselves, chances are people will always be wondering their gender.

But when a man who looks like a man, sounds like a man and then decides to be a woman and literally take no care what so ever over how they present themselves, how can anyone seriously expect people to take them seriously?

Discuss PLEASE because frankly my mind is kind of blown right now.

Ehhh. I have come to a point in my life as long as it does not directly effect me or perputate a crime on anyone, I could give two shits.

Have to agree with Mattykovax, Does it really matter?

Sure it's a little strange for a good amount of us but if there's no harm then why would you mind?

Their choice and I'm sure you'd be irritated if others told you your clothes and apperance was wrong.

Some people may be offended by my opinion, but I believe that - aside from anomalous cases - transgenderism is nonsense.

That about sums it up.

Everyone's different, simple as that. Some in the trans* community still try to retain any physical characteristics of their born sex, not all, but some. Also bear in mind that the expense of hormone replacement therapy and, if wanted by the person, surgery is painful. Plus any health concerns which might prevent them from undergoing any of that.

There are cis-women in the world who have facial hair, it tends to come down to their genes and cis-women can find their facial hair growing at faster rates as they get older. As said, everyone's different.

Not everyone is born cis-gender and not everyone is born heterosexual, not everyone is born the same and nor should they be expected to be.

You live in a world of gender duality. There is no common terms, even in the English language, to describe people of other genders. However, why do this bother you so? Why must you refer to a "manly" woman as a male? Humans come in every shape and size, including those of the transgender community.

And you base this opinion off your extensive research in the field... or?

Gender dysphoria basically means that a person's gender identity doesn't match with their body, so the fact that this woman has a man's body doesn't mean shit about whether she's a woman or not. For all you know, she might be stuck in that male body because she can't afford sex reassignment surgery. The Eurovision 2014 winner is, as far as I can tell, a man with a drag persona, not a transsexual.

Welcome, I'm a vocal in this club.

He came to this conclusion because he's a well-known Youtube personality. Haven't you ever heard of the Blue Rambler?

What does it matter to you, really, in the long run of YOUR life, whether Joe Blow wants to be referred to as Jane Blow even though they look a lot more like a Joe than a Jane?

Like if someone else's preferred pronouns not fitting their outward appearance is mind numbing to you, trying to navigate university courses must be hell.

Contrary to your belief, a person's preferred pronouns and how they dress, act or look has nothing to do with anyone but them, and you don't HAVE to take them seriously for them to succeed in expressing who they are. Some people today really do not fit the traditional molds of gender identities, and yes, it will take a while before we stop seeing them as different. Remember segregation? The kids of today would probably never think twice about sharing a bus seat with a kid who wasn't the same race as them, or using the same toilets. We're making the same transition now with gays, where it's becoming less and less of a 'thing' and just part of everyday life.

If it isn't HURTING you, stop acting like it's your personal problem. If you don't like the way this person acts or is, don't be their friend. But if you want to be a mature adult, you could just ask them some questions and try and understand them instead of blindly judging without knowing WHY the person looks how they do but chooses to identify as something else entirely. There's a thousand shades of grey when it comes to gender identity, not everyone is just 'transgender'. Just ask, politely, and listen and learn.

It should be noted that women can grow facial hair, and there are certain religions who do not cut their hair including facial hair.

You can't take them seriously, that's the point. The point is to pay no attention to them because they're not worth paying attention to.

I'm shocked you are bringing this up as example. Please leave Carolyn alone for gods sake and the reviews rocks.

I had a teacher that was a transgender man being a woman's body, and it was kind of obvious but I always thought of her as a she anyways and not a man, but when my other classmates talked about her they'd always say "he", and I found it kind of offensive, I mean mean she went by a woman's name, she dressed like a woman. I didn't like her because she was a hard ass and always assigned too much reading and homework for low credit class and graded harshly, but regardless I still respected her enough to think of her as a woman.

There was a kid in one of my college classes though. Wasn't transgender or anything, but their voice was right at the perfect pitch where one couldn't tell if it was a man or woman's voice. Their body was right at the physique where one couldn't tell if it was a man or a woman. The hair was long but still not definitive in any way to determine if it was a man or a woman. The face was smooth and no facial hair but also no make up or anything. It was difficult to tell if it was a guy or a tomboyish female. Anyhow, this person made a comment in class, and another girl in class made a comment of how she agreed with "her/him" (forget what pronoun was used), but the person who nobody knew what they were heard the wrong gender pronoun and flipped out. That was kind of funny. That person was the real life Pat (like from SNL).

I don't believe it, the dude... I mean, person, that made that terrible review of that terrible game known as GTA V is actually transgender? Well, it makes sense why I thought that person sounded like they'd just woken up in the middle of their sex reassignment surgery...

indzman, I have nothing against you wanting to defend Carolyn, but don't defend her review and over inflated score of GTA V. That game was a piece of sh*t and ever since I saw that review and the site changeover, I left Gamespot.

See i'm a GTA fanboy , i wished Carolyn gave GTA V 10 or 9.5 but settled for 9 ( its a editors choice score ), but hey she gave GTA IV 10/10 lol. You didn't enjoy GTA V ??? man , i enjoyed it much lol =P

I just found it hilarious that so many dutch people were salty about losing the eurovision song festival to her :P

Gamespot only use whole numbers now.

honestly i don't care,as long as they don't effect me in any shape or form

Same here.

Also, why did my country(Greece) finish 20th in the Eurovision contest... :(

@foxhound_fox: I'm not saying we need to call a masculine woman a man, I'm saying what sort of mentality would cause a man to suddenly decide "I want to be a woman" for no other reason than just wanting to but then not even attempting to mask the fact she is a man by having more facial hair than a hobo?

If you are going to go for it at least go all the way. Obviously surgery is another topic all together but when you are actually a man, who wants to be a woman but then present yourself as a man in pretty much every way, it is borderline attention seeking.

Like I said if you genuinely are just born that way we can all stand by that person but sometimes that just isn't the case.

@Barbariser: Yeah, perhaps I am getting my vocab mixed up a little then. That would make a lot of sense. I mean if someone is genuinely born in that way we can all stand by that problem, for the person.

@XilePrincess: It isn't a PERSONAL problem I'm just trying to make sense of it. I mean imagine if someone was discriminatory towards them for it, imagine the backlash that would cause. And in that case you've got to ask yourself if the person can't even be bothered to shave their beard off how did they expect anything else? If they don't care that much why should everyone else? It is almost like an extreme form of attention seeking.

If someone is genuinely having trouble with gender identity because of the way they were born that is fine we can all get behind that person because it wasn't their fault. But when people genuinely look like they are seeking attention from it that seems like they are being just as insensitive to the people who are having gender issues than the people who are discriminatory. Almost like they are saying I don't have true gender issues but I'm going to make it an issue on purpose.

@lostrib: Yeah but women have a hard time growing a particularly thick beard. Hormones go a long way. Most women who have beards could easily mask it if they so chose. It isn't like a man who at the age of 30 will haveheavy stubble shadow. It is almost like a teenager's beard. Kind of patchy and thin. All because the hormone balance isn't right. When you can see a beard like Osama Binladen on a person in a dress though? Get my point.

@lamprey263: Yes exactly that is my point. For someone in that situation where they are genuinely on the borderline between the two, we can all understand that, that isn't their fault and we should all support them. But when people kind of make the "choice" on purpose for no other reason other than they could, that is just as offensive to transgender people as discrimination as far as I can see. I think I am using the wrong vocab, transgender and cross dressing is what I'm really trying to distinguish which is why I am failing because I've been thinking of them as the same thing.

Cross dressing is just a terrible form of attention seeking as far as I can see.

@deeliman: To be fair the song was fucking garbage and when she looks like she does it is like adding salt to the wound. Hell I was just glad the UK didn't come dead last again. But man that song was shit. I'm probably not going to watch Eurovision again for a couple of years. There were so many talented groups there and one of the worst ones won.

Yea transgenderism sounds like a very mundane absurdity to me. Before I get showered with tolerance and political correctness by OT's LGBT crusaders no I really don't care if a woman decided to become a dickless man or if a man decided to grow a pair of boobs, but that doesn't mean I can't find the concept to be absurd and laughable to be honest, except for medically legitimate cases.

In any case TC, the world is all about complete apathy and indolence these days so don't concern yourself too much with it. You'll always be faced with the "it doesn't concern me" platitude.

I doubt there is any case where a person feels "suddenly" like they "want" to be of the opposite gender. Something that people have a hard time grasping is that gender is not related to sex. Sex is biological, gender can be fluid. Look up Inuit gender traditions if you don't believe me.

You clearly have no understanding of why transgenders choose to go through with gender reassignment surgery. Which in itself is excessively expensive, and most people in the US who want to pursue it, cannot afford it.

How would you feel if you woke up every morning, knowing you are biologically a man, but feel like a woman? Feel like you should have female genitals, feel like you should have female biological traits, but are trapped in a male body? This is what transgender people face every day. Your lack of compassion for what they go through is disturbing and probably why the general public still doesn't widely accept transgender as a legitimate issue people face.

I would almost certainly realize how full of shit I am and would tell myself to get my shit together.

I can't dismiss what you said; after all, there are people who confess to having experienced such a state of mind. However, the fact that something is experienced with any substantial degree of authenticity doesn't necessarily contribute to its legitimacy. Otherwise, we'd have to accept the experiences of delusional fascists with superiority complex, pedophiles, zoophiles...etc. Before anyone tries to shove words that I didn't say down my throat no I'm not saying transgender people are fascist or pedophiles...etc. Instead what I'm trying to say is that a line must be drawn at some point and since we will ask people to get their shit together beyond that line, why wouldn't we be able to tell people that are pretty close to that line the same thing?

For example, I was googling the exact spelling of the term zoophile and look what I found:

http://www.psychforums.com/paraphilias/topic88172.html

So what should we tell this person? assuming that he/she is not a troll.

Um....If its not your body and has no effect on you or hurt anyone it really does not concern you, and its not your business. That's not apathy its learning that one persons narrow world view(and we all have narrow world views built on our opinions and prejudices myself included) is not some uniform right or wrong.

For instance I actually do have a very complex thought out opinion on transgenderism and the types and severity of gender dysphoria. However since I am not transgender, I am not bothered nor frankly around people that are except on the internet, and they are not commiting any kind of crime my opinion really is meaningless.

To wit, it really does not concern me.

So 9 means 10 ? or just 9 ?

;-)

If it does not concern me in the sense that I'm not entitled to dictate the lives of these people then yes sure I've already said that anyway. But if you mean that simply because something does not relate to you directly or does not affect you in the most definite sense of the word affect then no you're wrong. In fact that would be the definition of apathy, for no one can afford to be apathetic towards things directly pertaining to his life.

@foxhound_fox said:

@GazaAli said:

I would almost certainly realize how full of shit I am and would tell myself to get my shit together.

;-)

Well this is actually how I treat myself so the question is: can someone be a douchbag to himself rofl

But it does not directly affect my life and never will. So my point still stands. Even its world changing consequences, such as letting people be, cutting suicide rates, cutting murder rates, none of those affect me personally , and if they did they are positive.

So yeah, your still just making excuses because people don't have outspoken, slightly negative perspectives on this issue like you do.

Why would you assume that I want people to speak negatively of this?

@foxhound_fox: I'm saving that gif. I'm sure it'll be useful in the near future =)

@GazaAli: The difference is that zoophiles, pedophiles, etc do what they do to others; which is not the case in this discussion. Nobody else is affected by it (of course it can be hard for the families, but I think you understand what I'm trying to say) And I don't think that being tolerant is the same as being apathetic. If my mother decides she wants a tramp stamp then I'll say "go for it"; it's her body and what she does with it doesn't concern me as long as it makes her happier with herself and who she is; but saying "You can do whatever you want" doesn't mean "I don't care about you".

@foxhound_fox: I'm sorry but I believe that sort of thing is definitely confined to the arena of mental illness. If I am a man i.e. I have male genitalia, and a range of hormone levels which are considered to be within a reasonably regular then I am a man.

Most people who have problems with their gender as in a man that looks like a woman or a woman like a man (or you know kind of "neutral" where it is hard to know what gender they are on looks alone) they tend to have physical manifestations i.e. hormone imbalances or genetics which are causing it. So those people can CHOOSE to be whichever gender they want to be. That is perfectly fine, it isn't their fault.

But a man who looks like a man and was born as a man and is pretty much in every conceivable physical way a man, believes he should be a woman? That is definitely either a cry for attention or a mental illness (or a bit of both).

@Dannystaples14: Wait, so you're saying that a person who looks androgynous is free to choose whether they are a man or a woman but nobody else has the same right?

9 is 9. The difference is that now there is no 9.5, the only thing higher than a 9 is a 10.

miss 9.5 :(

I consider myself pretty tolerant, so I won't fault somebody for wanting to be a woman if they was born with a penis or vice versa. I only ask that they don't try to criticize somebody for not calling them by their preferred pronouns when prior to their initial meeting they made absolutely no effort to show their desired gender. For example, if you have a full beard and I never met you before don't get mad at me for not calling you feminine pronouns assuming you don't let me know from the beginning you identify as a woman.

Before anybody tries to correct me, I am fully aware some people want to transition but they are unable to due to a lack of funds, such as a trans man who doesn't have the money to pay for testosterone or breast removal. Or you have a case like Private Manning, who wants to transition but can't due to being locked up in the USDB for the next 35 years. As for trans women who have full beards, while it is their right to do so, it is pretty hard to take them seriously since razors are pretty cheap and could hold them out until they have the funds to get hormones and permanent hair removal done.

You are completely ignoring gender and focusing entirely on sex. Gender is not limited to "physical manifestations". A human being is not merely a biological system... there is a level of consciousness within that system that can sometimes be out of alignment with the body. Just look at how much mental influence has over health.

If you think transgender people are mentally ill, then you need to develop some empathy towards their situation. You don't have the problem of waking up every morning, feeling like you are trapped in the wrong body. Feeling out of place amongst others in a change room. There is a level of compassion that seems lost on you and many others in this world.

The MAN who won eurovision is drag queen, not transgender.

Whether they do it to others or not isn't really the case here because in the case of zoophiles they too are not hurting anyone with their actions. The point is that we do draw a certain line for what is acceptable or unacceptable and since we can be critical and voice disapproval about practices that are beyond the line I don't see why the same can't be applicable to those lying right at the border of the line. I'm not saying we necessarily need to coerce them into doing or conforming to something in particular. Besides, the contention of ideas and opinions is imperative and crucial for the truth of anything to reveal itself and stay vital and potent. The absence of such contention inevitably leads to decadence and overall degradation of the individual and the state alike.

I don't know but it seems to me these days that tolerance has become synonymous with apathy, with apathy here being constituted in indifference to morality and acute indolence rather than not caring about someone close to you. For what would be the point of living in a society if the sole guideline or criterion for judging the actions of other members of society is whether it concerns some other people or not, in the most strict definition of the word concern. Frankly we might as well just live in complete anarchy without going into the trouble of forming societal communities.

I'm not going to lie, I was eating downstairs just before and was watching the news and it showed the bearded wannabe lady that won Eurovision. I don't know if it's just me but I lost my appetite and could not finish my meal. Needless to say I'm a little fuckin pissed off.

I guess what we learnt was don't watch TV when you're eating, and that I get disgusted very easily.

lol.

@GazaAli: Well, concerning zoophiles we'd have to start discussing animal rights, which is not in our best interest here since it's going to derail the thread and I see you ignored me mentioning pedophiles (which were brought up by you) so I guess we'll agree to disagree.

But I'm curious, you say people are apathetic while labeling it as tolerance so what is tolerance to you? It's certainly not the opposite of your definition of apathy, which would be telling people how to live their lives and which of the decisions that only affect themselves are viable or not. If you want to kill someone, the victim has the right to be protected, if you want to kill yourself that's on you. So yeah, I believe people should be able to do whatever they want to themselves. I don't see how preventing people from seeking happiness, even if that means gender reassignment, translates to caring for them, while letting them be happy by changing genders translates to apathy. Morality is always debatable and is an individual concept; in my opinion I should abide by MY morality concept pertaining MY life and MY actions and leave others to abide by theirs =)

I think the problem here is that people often feel entitled regarding things that they are not. People use the word "society" to make everything their business and that makes John feel entitled to tell Steve he doesn't have the right to be gay because John's kids will have to be subjected to homosexuality, therefore making Steve's sexuality John's business. Or makes Peter feel that he has the right to tell Adam that he cannot become a woman because transsexualism makes Peter uncomfortable, therefore giving him the right to define Adam's gender.

I thought you said you'd stay away from topics regarding LGBT

Can't find some other topic to post in. Besides, If it was not for this topic I would have missed this gem:

I actually ignored pedophiles because they seem to be a clear-cut case.

You could say that I'd define tolerance as abstention from coercion. Beyond that tolerance begins to progressively become apathy. Truth is, all people have a little bit of apathy in them as it would be impossible for us to have the energy and the willingness to care and pay attention to all social issues and matters. But there's a difference between having some apathy in you and adhering to apathy as a way of life. I didn't say we need to stop people from killing themselves or changing their sex; what I'm actually saying is that there should be no stopping any one of us to express his/her approbation/disapprobation on the matter, and in a very lucid way too. If someone came to me and told me that he/she is planning on changing his/her sex I'm not going to say "good for you" but I will not attempt to make it my problem either. I will make it clear how ridiculous and moronic it is (given that there's no medical reason for it) and depending on how much I care about the person and how willing and capable he/she may be to take into consideration what I have to tell him/her I may proceed to explain what's wrong, morally depraved, adversarial...etc with what he/she is trying to accomplish. I think that's quite reasonable. I may succeed in revealing some obscured truth to that person, in which case he/she would be indebted to me and I would have done them a favor. In the case that I didn't succeed then nothing of value would have been lost. What you're saying however is conducive to indolence and stagnation.

You know, and I'm not necessarily addressing you with the following, but I'm quite disdainful of the act of taking moral subjectivism too far. In reality everything is subjective so we might as well be all solipsists. The fact that morality could admittedly to be subjective says nothing about the righteousness/unrighteousness or the superiority/inferiority of any given moral system. The way I personally perceive the prevalent extreme moral subjectivism of nowadays is that its an expression of both the intellectual and moral impotence of the multitude. Because people are consumed by their own sense of impotence and ignorance and overall decadence and inferiority, they realize that the best way to mask their shortcoming is to confess to nothing. This way they can never be accused of being wrong. If you confess to nothing then its really difficult for someone to contend your intellect/morale and whatever that you're professing to. Basically its like "I take the stance of not taking a stance". I don't believe in genuine neutrality, but I do believe that some semblance of neutrality can be often utilized to compensate for something or escape some burden. Again I'm not really targeting you with all of this, I really hope that you will keep that in mind.