Kentucky clerk defies gay marriage court order again 'under God's authority'

.. This is backwards logic.... She is the one violating the first amendment here.. She is in fact enforcing her religion on others through the government.. Nothing is stopping her from resigning.. Her freedoms are not being violated, meanwhile she is in fact infringing on the freedoms of others.. People seem not to get that religious freedom only goes so far, you do not have the right to infringe on the federally recognized rights of others.. I really wish people could get this through their skulls.

For such a strict Christian she sure has been divorced and remarried a lot. What is it three times now?

I don't understand why anyone would want to get married in the first place except for the tax breaks. There is a gay dude who drinks at the local me and friends go to frequently and he had the most messy, overemotional break up I have ever seen which led to his ex burning down their house they lived in, going to prison, getting out, stalking him, sexually assaulting him in the bar bathroom before going back to prison and a restraining order granted. They were perfectly fine after 11 years until they got married. 6 months later it was in shambles and he is a broken man now. I have seen straight people go through divorces and they are bad, but this was just insane. The sad part is he sometimes gets teary at the bar because the exact same thing is happening to his best friend and he attributes it to all of the drama and tv shows like "Modern Family" painting a completely unrealistic portrait that nobody can live up to.

She is entitled to her faith. No one is suggesting otherwise. She can not allow her faith to impede her duties as a government employee though and as such, she needs to be removed from her position. Ignoring law, discriminating and ignoring a court order (which is sure to come) can and should land her in jail. The two gay guys who she keeps refusing a license should sue her for all she has which most likely isn't much.

Only a small number of marriages result in houses being burnt down. I'm sure there have been unmarried couples where after a break up one burnt down the others house.

Not sure how your logic is working here.

First of all she is not enforcing her religion through the government, she is stating that she cannot issue a license to a gay couple because of religion. In theory the county could simply suspend her or place another clerk there that did not have any problem and the issue would be solved.

Also how can she violate the 1st amendment? Not to mention that there are no federal law protecting sexuality, what the supreme court decided on was simply a case of how to understand the law in terms of how broad the marriage understanding was, and that the 14th amendment does not exclude gay couples.

So again as stated earlier there is how ever a federal law protecting the religious freedom and there are laws in place to make sure that they are upheld.

Not really. The reason those bakers lost was because they only refused to serve gay couples which has some state protection against discrimination.

If those religious bakers were to have said "Ok, we will no longer make any wedding cakes at all to anyone straight or gay or bicuriours or intersexual whateve" they would have won, since there is no discrimination taking place at all.

This Deputy clerk is refusing to issue any marriage license at all. Which is why the ACLU filed a suit on behalf of both straight and gay couples.

So its a whole different ballgame.

If any of us here were to refuse to do our jobs we would get fired, plain and simple.

Bitch needs to be removed from office immediately and while we are at it she shouldn't be allowed to work a government job ever again.

She's an elected official so the county does not have the authority to suspend her, if they did this would have been over and done in a day. The simple fact now is that she is in contempt of court as elected officials take an oath to uphold the laws of the jurisdiction in which they serve. She is not so if the law offends her religious sensibilities then she has the right to resign as does any other elected official.

I think the larger narrative is that people are generally getting fed up with people claiming religion as their excuse to be bigots which is the real issue here. She tried to hide that fact by not issuing any marriage licenses to any couple regardless of sexual orientation but that was such an obvious ploy to try an avoid being seen for what she is, using religion is just her grasping for an excuse that enough people will accept so she can deny she's a bigot.

She is not elected into office, not sure where you have that idea from. Deputy Clerks are hired , as the link Byshop posted clearly also shows.

But do please link to where it states that a kentucky Deputy clerk is elected into that office and not hired.

Also sure some liberals might be getting fed up with people claiming religious protection, but that shows their own double standards and their own hypocrisy. You cannot ride high and demand protection for sexuality and in the same breath deny others the same protection, just because you do not agree with the reason.

Not to mention that religion is federal protected against discrimination. Something sexuality is not.

It's like talking to a wall at this point given the need to repeat the same stuff despite actual examples given among other stuff

My thoughts exactly

My link says nothing of the sort. It just talks about what is involved to remove her.

She -is- an elected official. Here are links from the New York Times and Time magazine that confirm this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/02/us/same-sex-marriage-kentucky-kim-davis.html?_r=0

http://time.com/4018999/kentucky-clerk-kim-davis-same-sex-marriage/

But regardless, whether or not she's elected doesn't change the fact that she has a job to do and she's refusing to do it. There is no argument here for religious protection because he job has nothing to do with her faith. Besides the obvious (separation of church and state, etc). I posted a link earlier from the Anti Deflamation League that had some very clear examples of what qualifies as something that falls under religious protection. Just because something at work is at odds with your religion that doesn't automatically entitle you to religious protection. On the contrary, there are quite a few examples of people who did or didn't want to do their job because of their religion where they didn't have a case because their request wasn't reasonable.

The fact that she's elected isn't relevant to her doing the responsibilities of her position or losing that position, it just makes her harder to get rid of and replace logistically.

The fact that gay marriage certificate weren't on the table when she was elected doesn't change the fact that she has no control over what the responsibilities of her position are. She can do them, or she can face the consequences, or she can leave. Nobody has control over the terms of their position at any employer, save anything that was specifically worked out in contrac at the time they were hired.

What she's doing is similar to a "sit down strike", since she's refusing to do her job and she's not making way for someone who will. Sit down strikes are also completely illegal, but the term is a bit more literal, applying to factory or line workers who go on strike but stay at their workstations and physically block others from coming in to do the work in their place.

-Byshop

@JacanukShe is not a deputy clerk, she was a deputy clerk under her mother who was previous county clerk , she is now the county clerk. Deputy clerks opinions are not worth noting legally so this wouldn't have ever been an issue so you obviously don't know which pot to piss in. It may be different where you are from but in KY where county clerks are very much an elected official it will take the state legislature to impeach her to remove her from office and the legislature doesn't reconvene until next year. When you get a basic fact like that wrong your entire argument is invalid and not worth further consideration.

Seems a bit much to suppose that she knows gods opinion on this matter...

@thegerg: it's ok to disagree with her and all, but calling her disgusting and wishing ill upon her just because she's following her belief just makes you look stupid.

I'm not religious at all but because of people like you is why I can't take most gay rights supporters serious. you all scream for equality and freedom of belief while insulting Christians for their beliefs.

Where did he insult her for her beliefs? Nobody cares if she hates gays, the issue here is that she's an elected member of government refusing to do her job.

Besides why does it matter what her reason for hating gays is? How is it better to say "I hate gays because some book told me to" than "I hate gays because it's gross"? Christians don't (or at least shouldn't) have more rights than everyone else. Everyone is equal.

@toast_burner: "She's a disgusting fucking person and deserves to be convicted of the civil rights violations she's committing and locked in a fucking cage like the inhuman piece of shit that she is."

1st page.

I'm pretty sure she said she didn't have a problem with them in the video. Refusing to agree to their marriage doesn't equal hate. I'm not here to argue civil rights tho. I'm just saying that's people like him only bring hypocrisy and create a negative stereotype for that group. Gay rights groups would Probally be years ahead if not for ppl like that.

And where did he mention her religious beliefs? It doesn't matter if she's Christian, Muslim or atheist. What she did was morally repugnant and illegal.

He clearly states that his issue with her is that she's violating the human rights of the people she's supposed to be serving.

And her reason is because of her belief. He's calling her disgusting because of her belief. Like I said it's ok to disagree, but doing so in that manner just looks stupid.

Its not morally repugnant for her.

I'm not saying she shouldn't face discipline. But saying she should be jailed and rot in a cage is a huge over reaction and.Probally comes from a place of hate.

I'm from Kentucky.

This County is the same County that Morehead University resides.


This woman is an elected official. She can not be fired, she can only resign, or be impeached. I'm not sure what the impeachment process is for a County Clerk in Kentucky.



This is about Greed. The woman makes $80,000 a year in taxpayer money, which is why she won't resign. She claims she became a Christian 4 years ago.

She is making a martyr play. She is hoping to do jail time, fines etc... in the hopes that other bigot assholes will start a kickstarter or whatever and she can make hundreds of thousands of dollars.

She probably will, there are plenty of bigot assholes out there.

She did a crime that can result in jail time. It's contempt of court, not littering. It's a serious offence.

Again why are her religious beliefs relevant? Being religious does not give you the right to break the law.

Hmm, you are right that a county clerk is a elected job, some media reports her as being a deputy clerk. Wish these people would do a bit of fact checking.

Anyways again issuing marriage licenses to gay couples was never a part of the job when she was elected into office, it only came later and that is where it makes it a bit different. So of course there is arguments for her to have the legal offered religious freedom protection. And yes i did read that link and i do not see anything that would argue against her being granted those right.

So of course it matters , its like hiring a devote muslim chef and then later putting pork on the menu and demanding that he should of course make and taste that. It's not reasonable to demand that she fulfill a part of the job that goes against her religious beliefs.

But with that said the courts seem to disagree which is surprising and we will see when the appeals are heard.

And part of the job is adapting to changes in law. How can you be a county clerk if you refuse to accept that the law change? Even pre-school kids know that.

Time doesn't freeze when you get a job. By your logic it should be ok for police officers in Texas to arrest gay people because sodomy was illegal back when they got the job in 2002.

She should enforce the the law. The officials above her form the President, the US Attorney General and the US Supreme Court should also obey the laws. When the Defense of Marriage Act was being challenged in the courts the Government had a responsibility to defend the law. That was their sworn duty. You don't have to like laws but you have to defend them. The US Supreme Court argument in their decision striking the Defense of Marriage Act disqualified themselves from taking the case that they ruled same sex marriage was legal in the United States. So if we are going to enforce laws this county clerk is on the bottom rung of people who should obey and enforce laws.

Not really , her argument and religious freedom under the 1st amendment was never heard by the supreme court.

What was ruled on during the landmark case was whether or not the 14th amendment was excluding gay couples and could only be used on marriage as between a man and women.

Her case was heard in the state´s district court.

@toast_burner: it's really not that serious. At most 6months in jail and that's highly unlikely. Shell just get a fine.

When a law is asking you to go against your beliefs, it's very much relevant.

This whole thing is about religion, not oppression or hate. Idk why you keep trying to argue. Our convo is now irrelevant to my original statement.

iirc it's up to 2 years in prison. It's pretty serious, sure it's not as big as murder, but that doesn't mean it's small.

She isn't being forced to go against her religion. She had plenty of time to resign.

A homophobe working for a government that believes in equal rights makes as little sense as a pacifist joining the military. Yes some jobs require doing stuff that may go against your beliefs, that why if you have strong beliefs like that you should avoid those occupations.

Yes, if those changes are not going against someone's religious freedom. And any pre-school kids know that religious freedom is protected not only by the 1st amendment but also federal laws.

Why do you think there are those protections in place? Its there to protect something as serious as people's religion freedom because it's not something that should be looked upon lightly.

And what has time to do with anything? do you think religion and belief is something that change because our liberal society changes? thats is just stupid, religion is not a dynamic evolving thing, its static. Unless of course you want to make the religion a joke.

In terms of homosexuality the bible is pretty clear on that so if she believes that, she should be offered all rights to do so and the county should accommodate that as long as she is in office.

But this whole thing just shows how hypocritical some parts of america are particular the liberal and LGBT community, They want everyone to accept them and make sure they have the same rights and protections, while at the same time denying others the same. Its just laughable stupid.

Again nobody is asking her to change her beliefs. What they're asking is that she either does her job or quits.

So we should just disregard the discrimination laws? and discriminated against her beliefs because it feels more morally white to do so?

What about gays just finding another place? or wait their rights are more important?

@toast_burner: there you go, claiming she's scared of gays just because she's following her religion. You know She is also denying regular marriages too

And as she stated, there is 130 other offices that could give license.

I'll no longer respond unless its about my original post about Gay right supporters bashing ppl because of their beliefs.

I didn't say she was scared of gays... Would you say a person who opposes interracial marriage isn't racist? This is no different.

So? How does the fact that other people follow the law negate the fact that she is breaking it?

Why don't you stay on that subject and actually provide evidence for it?

What anti-discrimination law says that Christians can pick and choose what laws they follow?

If your sexuality somehow prevents you from doing your job, then yeah get a different job. This doesn't really ever happen since sexuality isn't an ideology. Maybe if you work as a gigolo in a brothel that only serves females being gay might prevent you from working... yeah this is a really dumb argument, try to think before you type next time.

@toast_burner: you're the one off topic of my original post.

What exactly needs evidence here? And you absolutely said she was scared or hated gays...,,surely. I don't need to define homophobe for you.

Just becaus it's law Doesn't mean it's not intruding her beliefs. It was once law that gays didn't marry, people stood against it because it was their belief. Why are her beliefs less important. Why aren't these people going to the other clerks, instead they return 4 times? Seeking attention much?

You seems to be trying to argue just to argue as I already said she should be punished. But you just keep blabbering....

Well of course you don't need to define it for me, I need to define it for you.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/homophobia

Dislike of or prejudice against homosexual people.

Again why did she choose a job that she knew may require her to go against her beliefs? She made an oath to follow the law regardless of her personal thoughts on the law. Saying other people are doing their job does not excuse that someone is refusing to do theirs.

So where is your evidence that any of the hatred towards her is because she's a Christian and not because of the crime she committed?

She is not picking or chosing what law to follow. Issuing marriage licenses is a part of her job and up until recently there was no issues there. Not until now when the supreme court has decided as it did, is there a issue.

And as the law says

"The law requires an employer or other covered entity to reasonably accommodate an employee's religious beliefs or practices, unless doing so would cause more than a minimal burden on the operations of the employer's business. This means an employer may be required to make reasonable adjustments to the work environment that will allow an employee to practice his or her religion"

And you didn´t read what i wrote, i meant gay couples should find another county office, according to the facts there is another office less than 30miles away where they can get their marriage license.

So basically what I said, scared or hate.

Where's your evidence that she hates gays? She's equally refusing straight marriage license also. She can still love them as her bible tells her to do, But hate the sin.

Where did I say she was being hated because she was Christian? I said her belief.

Calling her disgusting in anyway for this is calling her disgusting because of her beliefs.

No one is excusing her, but you can't help but believe these people are just trying to get a little fame after returning so many times. If she was refusing only gays, then they'd have a point. Their marriage must not be that important if they are willing play around like that. Unless they aren't allowed to go to another office for some reason then they are just looking for attention.

@thegerg: @thegerg: which is the result of her beliefs.

You're correct, until recently there wasn't an issue, so what? The fact is that now there is an issue. Like I said before time doesn't freeze when you get a job. Her oath wasn't to follow the law at the period of time where she first applied for the job, but to follow the law as it stands in the present. If you can't accept that the law changes over time, then why the **** would you get a job that requires you to follow the law without favour, affection or partiality?

"reasonably accommodate" her breaking her oath and refusing to do her job is not reasonable accommodation.

Because of a little thing called anti-discrimination laws. The same laws that require Muslim clerks to issue marriage certificates to Christians.