Just goes to show that the fans would have made a worse Star Wars sequel trilogy than Disney

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#1 Edited by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

I'm surprised by all the gushing YouTube comments. Thumbs up from almost everyone. I can't believe so many of them actually want this in the movie. The video reminds me of how overproduced modern movies are. This scene didn't need epic (generic) music, and the powerful, agile choreography doesn't match Alec Guinness' aged physicality seen earlier in the movie at all. I do like the new trilogy, even though it should have been a lot better planned. There are plenty of things I would have done differently, especially the setup. But a fan series would likely have been far worse than what we got. These people aren't filmmakers, they're filthy fanboys.

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#2 Posted by jaydan (2203 posts) -

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

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#3 Edited by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

Yes. Because it was conceived by a single mind and not drafted by a committee. Say what you want about George Lucas, but he had a vision.

That's also why I prefer Fury Road over pretty much any modern action and adventure movie. George Miller wasn't the sole writer, but he had plenty of artistic control and storyboarded the whole movie.

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#4 Edited by jaydan (2203 posts) -
@ezekiel43 said:
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

Yes. Because it was conceived by a single mind and not drafted by a committee. Say what you want about George Lucas, but he had a vision.

That's also why I prefer Fury Road over pretty much any modern action and adventure movie. George Miller wasn't the sole writer, but he had plenty of artistic control and storyboarded the whole movie.

I think George Lucas is given more credit than he deserves. The way I look at it, he caught 'lightning-in-a-bottle' with his first efforts with the Star Wars franchise. I think it shows because when he came back to do the prequels; well...we know how those ones turned out. He did a few other niche pieces before Star Wars - like American Graffiti - but honestly I don't view him as the spectacular director so many Star Wars fanboys hype him out to be. He got lucky and then he turned his life's career into milking what he got lucky with. He's a self-deteriorated one-trick-pony in my eyes. I know he came up with the premise of Indiana Jones as well, but he passed those projects onto his pal Stephen Spielberg. I always look at Spielberg as a way more robust and varied director. At least Spielberg does different things in his career - he is a much more defined visionary director.

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#5 Edited by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@jaydan said:
@ezekiel43 said:
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

Yes. Because it was conceived by a single mind and not drafted by a committee. Say what you want about George Lucas, but he had a vision.

That's also why I prefer Fury Road over pretty much any modern action and adventure movie. George Miller wasn't the sole writer, but he had plenty of artistic control and storyboarded the whole movie.

I think George Lucas is given more credit than he deserves. The way I look at it, he caught 'lightning-in-a-bottle' with his first efforts with the Star Wars franchise. I think it shows because when he came back to do the prequels; well...we know how those ones turned out. He did a few other niche pieces before Star Wars - like American Graffiti - but honestly I don't view him as the spectacular director so many Star Wars fanboys hype him out to be. He got lucky and then he turned his life's career into milking what he got lucky with. He's a self-deteriorated one-trick-pony in my eyes. I know he came up with the premise of Indiana Jones as well, but he passed those projects onto his pal Stephen Spielberg. I always look at Spielberg as a way more robust and varied director. At least Spielberg does different things in his career - he is a much more defined visionary director.

He conceived the Star Wars trilogy, directed one of the best movies in that trilogy, co-created Raiders of the Lost Ark and The Temple of Doom (The Last Crusade isn't as good.) and directed the charming American Graffiti. I don't like what he has become and he never was one of my favorite directors, but I'll never stop respecting him for what he has given us. He was a good storyteller.

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#6 Edited by mrbojangles25 (43784 posts) -

That was a nice fan service, but I don't think the guy was saying "this is how it should be" merely "Hey look this is fun too"

Unless he actually said "Original Star Wars sucks, mine is better". In that case, he can take a long walk on a short pier.

Also, FYI, best light saber duel ever was Obi Wan and Darth Maul in Rebels. That's how a duel among masters plays out; samurai style, short and calculated, first mistake costs the person their life. Skip to 1:30 if you want to get to the duel.

Loading Video...

Is it boring? I am sure some kids raised on Michael Bay movies might think so. Me? I think it is high-tension, artistic, realistic, and beautiful. The honor and respect displayed at the end? Bonus points.

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#7 Edited by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@mrbojangles25 said:

That was a nice fan service, but I don't think the guy was saying "this is how it should be" merely "Hey look this is fun too"

Unless he actually said "Original Star Wars sucks, mine is better". In that case, he can take a long walk on a short pier.

My issue is more with the viewers than with the creators of the video. I can admit it was entertaining, but the viewers believe this improves on the original and should be in the movie. The comments make me wanna vomit.

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#8 Posted by jaydan (2203 posts) -

@ezekiel43: I'll give him enough respect that he created something engraved in cinematic and pop-cultural history, but I will only give him credit where it's due. What's worse than George Lucas by quite a margin, is the Star Wars fanboys that act like the franchise is the epitome of Cinema. I understand how important and sentimental the franchise is to generations of moviegoers, but I'll never look at them as the center. I can't even look at the special effects as groundbreaking when Fritz Lang predated Star Wars by a half century with Metropolis. Now that is what I call a sci-fi masterpiece, and way ahead of its time.

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#9 Edited by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@jaydan said:

@ezekiel43: I'll give him enough respect that he created something engraved in cinematic and pop-cultural history, but I will only give him credit where it's due. What's worse than George Lucas by quite a margin, is the Star Wars fanboys that act like the franchise is the epitome of Cinema. I understand how important and sentimental the franchise is to generations of moviegoers, but I'll never look at them as the center. I can't even look at the special effects as groundbreaking when Fritz Lang predated Star Wars by a half century with Metropolis. Now that is what I call a sci-fi masterpiece, and way ahead of its time.

Metropolis wasn't that special to me. I preferred M. Not that Star Wars is a masterpiece either. I don't know why you're bringing this up. What does Metropolis being better have to do with anything? Who cares about the fans? The fans are cancerous, which can be seen from the replies to that video.

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#10 Edited by mrbojangles25 (43784 posts) -

@ezekiel43 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

That was a nice fan service, but I don't think the guy was saying "this is how it should be" merely "Hey look this is fun too"

Unless he actually said "Original Star Wars sucks, mine is better". In that case, he can take a long walk on a short pier.

My issue is more with the viewers than with the creators of the video. I can admit it was entertaining, but the viewers believe this improves on the original and should be in the movie. The comments make me wanna vomit.

Ah, I see. "Improving on the original", you say? When has that happened to our detriment?

"All this has happened before..."

"...and will happen again"

Hmmm maybe you are right to be wary :D

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#11 Edited by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@mrbojangles25 said:
@ezekiel43 said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

That was a nice fan service, but I don't think the guy was saying "this is how it should be" merely "Hey look this is fun too"

Unless he actually said "Original Star Wars sucks, mine is better". In that case, he can take a long walk on a short pier.

My issue is more with the viewers than with the creators of the video. I can admit it was entertaining, but the viewers believe this improves on the original and should be in the movie. The comments make me wanna vomit.

Ah, I see. "Improving on the original", you say? When has that happened to our detriment?

"All this has happened before..."

"...and will happen again"

Hmmm maybe you are right to be wary :D

Thank god the E.T. Special Edition is a relic of the past, completely ignored in later official releases, including the UHD. The funny thing is that all these gushing YouTubers would be complaining if Lucas had put that scene in the Star Wars Special Edition.

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#12 Posted by DaVillain- (36052 posts) -
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

To me, I also like the Prequels in ways then what Disney has release so far. At least the Prequels were original ideas and yes, GL got carried away and had too much control but looking back, I can appreciate prequels then people give credit for. The original still top notch, no doubt about it. The only thing I do like about Disney's Star Wars is Rogue One so far.

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#13 Edited by jaydan (2203 posts) -

@ezekiel43: M is a very important film too but Metropolis is my personal favorite of the two.

I brought Metropolis up because Star Wars had very similar techniques in special effects that Metropolis already had going for it many decades earlier.

Overall, I see we are expressing similar sentiment that Star Wars fanboys can be quite hideous.

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#14 Posted by AsadMahdi59 (7103 posts) -

@mrbojangles25:

The walkie talkie things is real? OMFG there was a South Park episode about this subject, probably like 10 years old now and they mentioned the walkie talkies. I thought they were just joking around ......

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#15 Posted by Hallenbeck77 (15707 posts) -
@AsadMahdi59 said:

@mrbojangles25:

The walkie talkie things is real? OMFG there was a South Park episode about this subject, probably like 10 years old now and they mentioned the walkie talkies. I thought they were just joking around ......

Yup. Spielberg made some changes for the 20th anniversary edition DVD; however, they were poorly received by fans. Since then, Spielberg had only made the original, unaltered version available.

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#16 Edited by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@AsadMahdi59 said:

@mrbojangles25:

The walkie talkie things is real? OMFG there was a South Park episode about this subject, probably like 10 years old now and they mentioned the walkie talkies. I thought they were just joking around ......

I think that South Park episode was part of the reason the Special Edition version was dropped in later releases. I remember the South Park creators saying that Spielberg called them after he saw the episode to compliment them. I hesitated to get the UHD for a while because I didn't know if the original was also remastered or if it was even included. I'm happy to have it in my collection now.

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#17 Posted by Vaidream45 (1850 posts) -

This wasn’t a new movie idea at all. Not a fan film either. This is just someone playing around with the original light saber battle in Ep 4. This is more like a tribute than anything else. There are plenty of recent fan films for star wars you could have chosen instead that are in fact unique stories that you could ridicule but this isn’t justified as it’s NOT a fan film or an original idea. If you find some fan films you don’t like then you should repost this with one of those because then you would have some substance to your arguments.

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#18 Posted by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@vaidream45 said:

This wasn’t a new movie idea at all. Not a fan film either. This is just someone playing around with the original light saber battle in Ep 4. This is more like a tribute than anything else. There are plenty of recent fan films for star wars you could have chosen instead that are in fact unique stories that you could ridicule but this isn’t justified as it’s NOT a fan film or an original idea. If you find some fan films you don’t like then you should repost this with one of those because then you would have some substance to your arguments.

I don't watch fan films, so I wouldn't know. Not interested in them. Just came across this in a Star Wars thread. I think it's funny that these YouTube viewers who can't get enough of complaining about Disney proclaim this as an example of Star Wars done right. I know that their sequel trilogy would be total shit.

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#19 Posted by Gamerno6666 (6681 posts) -

Star wars was never good to began with.

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#20 Edited by Byshop (19558 posts) -

@ezekiel43 said:
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

Yes. Because it was conceived by a single mind and not drafted by a committee. Say what you want about George Lucas, but he had a vision.

That's also why I prefer Fury Road over pretty much any modern action and adventure movie. George Miller wasn't the sole writer, but he had plenty of artistic control and storyboarded the whole movie.

Ehhhh, that's pretty far from true for the originals. If you read up on the creation of them there is a -lot- of stuff that he was reigned in on by others on the production, including his wife who worked as an editor before they got married. Killing Obi Wan in the first film was her idea, not his. He literally said this himself in a Rolling Stone interview in 1977, along with some other tweaks she suggested to what ended up being iconic scenes, like the trench run scene at the end which she completely re-ordered from what Lucas had written. There are many articles on this:

https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/the-secret-weapon-behind-star-wars/news-story/75eb078a8b14d93fce23b06e98805ffb

And it wasn't even just her. She worked with other editors to create what we know as the original trilogy today. But it's not "just one dude".

This is a general mentality of the lone auteur artist who's vision is ruined by the suits and censors who don't understand them and if only they could be free to create what they see in their head it would be the masterpiece of the century. People use this argument for why companies should never tweak, localize, or otherwise edit movies/shows/games/whatever all the time, but the reality of these projects is much different. If you've ever worked on any large scale project you'd understand how organically this stuff evolves over the course of development. Frozen originally had Elsa as the villain, but that was re-written based on the strength of the song Let It Go. Dead Souls, which is heralded as one of the best 2d Rogue-like Metroidvania games of all time, started its life as a tower defense game before they realized that literally nobody likes tower defense games. Sometimes outside/corporate meddling ruins stuff, but bear in mind that often the reason those producers got their jobs is because they aren't terrible at them, and the are many, many instances where the artist's vision would have been insane and the company stepped in and probably saved the project.

https://www.cracked.com/blog/5-classic-films-that-were-garbage-before-studios-intervened/

I'm not saying that Lucas didn't have good ideas or what he didn't conceive of an amazing fantasy world because he absolutely did, but the quality and success of the original films wasn't on his shoulders alone and claiming it was is ridiculous.

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#21 Edited by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@Byshop said:

I'm not saying that Lucas didn't have good ideas or what he didn't conceive of an amazing fantasy world because he absolutely did, but the quality and success of the original films wasn't on his shoulders alone and claiming it was is ridiculous.

And I didn't say that. It annoys me that you claim I did. It came from his mind. The story, for the most part, is his, and the original movie is as good as it is because of how much he struggled to put it together and what he demanded from his team (He didn't HAVE to fire that guy who did the speeder effect.), which became an example for the two sequels. Obviously, he couldn't have made it alone.

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#22 Edited by Baconstrip78 (1367 posts) -

@ezekiel43: Last Crusade is the best Indiana Jones.

Spielberg >>>>>>>> Lucas and it really isn’t close.

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#23 Edited by uninspiredcup (32807 posts) -

Gonna be honest here, I enjoy ROTS a hell of a lot more than the Disney movies, and part of that was the cocaine fueled light-saber fights.

Sure, way too long, completely over the top. But it's still a blast of entrainment. My brain don't give a shit and if it does just punch my temple.

I think even with the masses, upon masses of problem, I was still invested in the characters, as long as they weren't called Padme.

This scene, even with "from my point of view", still is more engaging than a single scene in the climax of FA/TLJ

Loading Video...

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#24 Posted by DoomNukem3D (172 posts) -

M > Metropolis >>>>>>>> Star Wars

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#25 Posted by LJS9502_basic (166353 posts) -

@jaydan said:

I think George Lucas is given more credit than he deserves. The way I look at it, he caught 'lightning-in-a-bottle' with his first efforts with the Star Wars franchise. I think it shows because when he came back to do the prequels; well...we know how those ones turned out. He did a few other niche pieces before Star Wars - like American Graffiti - but honestly I don't view him as the spectacular director so many Star Wars fanboys hype him out to be. He got lucky and then he turned his life's career into milking what he got lucky with. He's a self-deteriorated one-trick-pony in my eyes. I know he came up with the premise of Indiana Jones as well, but he passed those projects onto his pal Stephen Spielberg. I always look at Spielberg as a way more robust and varied director. At least Spielberg does different things in his career - he is a much more defined visionary director.

More credit? He deserves the credit for the original trilogy.

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#26 Edited by BenjaminBanklin (4350 posts) -
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

That's how it is for me. Even though Return of the Jedi started the downward slide of Star Wars as a heavily merch-driven franchise beyond having films in the cinema, it was still a satisfying ending to the original trilogy to me. Since then, Star Wars has been anywhere from bad, to merely amusing. It's become a thing that can no longer please all of the people, because it means different things for everyone, including its creator. It's a fractured base.

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#27 Edited by MirkoS77 (14056 posts) -

@ezekiel43 said:
@Byshop said:

I'm not saying that Lucas didn't have good ideas or what he didn't conceive of an amazing fantasy world because he absolutely did, but the quality and success of the original films wasn't on his shoulders alone and claiming it was is ridiculous.

And I didn't say that. It annoys me that you claim I did. It came from his mind. The story, for the most part, is his, and the original movie is as good as it is because of how much he struggled to put it together and what he demanded from his team (He didn't HAVE to fire that guy who did the speeder effect.), which became an example for the two sequels. Obviously, he couldn't have made it alone.

Lucas has stated that about 30% or so of the original films were satisfactory to his initial vision. Anyone who knows about Episode IV's production understands that it was a complete train wreck up until mere weeks before its release (apparently the theater of his initial screening to other directors was filled with howls of laughter when shown without Williams score). He had the initial vision and we wouldn't have Star Wars without him, but many aspects of Star Wars, for what I'd argue the majority, were attributable to the hard work of others that were placing their own vision into it that contradicted Lucas's to its benefit (for example, his original script was taken away from him and revised numerous times by others).

The prequels were 100% in his control as at that point nobody would say "boo" to him given how the OT had skyrocketed him to such status as to be revered as Star War's collective creative genius when he was anything but initially, and we all saw how that turned out. I agree that he has been given far too much credit. Further, Lucas largely pisses me off believing he has the right to go back and permanently change Star Wars without making the originals available. He has no right to do that whatsoever.

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#28 Posted by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@MirkoS77 said:
@ezekiel43 said:
@Byshop said:

I'm not saying that Lucas didn't have good ideas or what he didn't conceive of an amazing fantasy world because he absolutely did, but the quality and success of the original films wasn't on his shoulders alone and claiming it was is ridiculous.

And I didn't say that. It annoys me that you claim I did. It came from his mind. The story, for the most part, is his, and the original movie is as good as it is because of how much he struggled to put it together and what he demanded from his team (He didn't HAVE to fire that guy who did the speeder effect.), which became an example for the two sequels. Obviously, he couldn't have made it alone.

Lucas has stated that about 30% or so of the original films were satisfactory to his initial vision. Anyone who knows about Episode IV's production understands that it was a complete train wreck up until mere weeks before its release (apparently the theater of his initial screening to other directors was filled with howls of laughter when shown without Williams score). He had the initial vision and we wouldn't have Star Wars without him, but many aspects of Star Wars, for what I'd argue the majority, were attributable to the hard work of others that were placing their own vision into it that contradicted Lucas's to its benefit (for example, his original script was taken away from him and revised numerous times by others).

The prequels were 100% in his control as at that point nobody would say "boo" to him given how the OT had skyrocketed him to such status as to be revered as Star War's collective creative genius when he was anything but initially, and we all saw how that turned out. I agree that he has been given far too much credit. Further, Lucas largely pisses me off believing he has the right to go back and permanently change Star Wars without making the originals available. He has no right to do that whatsoever.

The last part upsets me too. I could talk about Star Wars 4K77 and the Grindhouse versions of Empire and Jedi, but his treatment of the OT has nothing to do with anything. He produced, supervised and wrote the basic idea for the sequels. Downplaying his importance is just petty.

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#29 Edited by nintendoboy16 (36061 posts) -
@BenjaminBanklin said:
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

That's how it is for me. Even though Return of the Jedi started the downward slide of Star Wars as a heavily merch-driven franchise beyond having films in the cinema, it was still a satisfying ending to the original trilogy to me. Since then, Star Wars has been anywhere from bad, to merely amusing. It's become a thing that can no longer please all of the people, because it means different things for everyone, including its creator. It's a fractured base.

Yep, VERY fractured.

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#30 Edited by MirkoS77 (14056 posts) -
@ezekiel43 said:
@MirkoS77 said:

Lucas has stated that about 30% or so of the original films were satisfactory to his initial vision. Anyone who knows about Episode IV's production understands that it was a complete train wreck up until mere weeks before its release (apparently the theater of his initial screening to other directors was filled with howls of laughter when shown without Williams score). He had the initial vision and we wouldn't have Star Wars without him, but many aspects of Star Wars, for what I'd argue the majority, were attributable to the hard work of others that were placing their own vision into it that contradicted Lucas's to its benefit (for example, his original script was taken away from him and revised numerous times by others).

The prequels were 100% in his control as at that point nobody would say "boo" to him given how the OT had skyrocketed him to such status as to be revered as Star War's collective creative genius when he was anything but initially, and we all saw how that turned out. I agree that he has been given far too much credit. Further, Lucas largely pisses me off believing he has the right to go back and permanently change Star Wars without making the originals available. He has no right to do that whatsoever.

The last part upsets me too. I could talk about Star Wars 4K77 and the Grindhouse versions of Empire and Jedi, but his treatment of the OT has nothing to do with anything. He produced, supervised and wrote the basic idea for the sequels. Downplaying his importance is just petty.

Downplaying his importance in their creation and downplaying it in terms of their success (the OTs) are two different things. One can give birth to a child, that has no say on how the child was raised.

As for his treatment of the OTs, I think it's a valid point if we're to pull in fan service as to how the trilogy "should" be.

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#31 Posted by Jag85 (13357 posts) -

@jaydan said:
@ezekiel43 said:
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

Yes. Because it was conceived by a single mind and not drafted by a committee. Say what you want about George Lucas, but he had a vision.

That's also why I prefer Fury Road over pretty much any modern action and adventure movie. George Miller wasn't the sole writer, but he had plenty of artistic control and storyboarded the whole movie.

I think George Lucas is given more credit than he deserves. The way I look at it, he caught 'lightning-in-a-bottle' with his first efforts with the Star Wars franchise. I think it shows because when he came back to do the prequels; well...we know how those ones turned out. He did a few other niche pieces before Star Wars - like American Graffiti - but honestly I don't view him as the spectacular director so many Star Wars fanboys hype him out to be. He got lucky and then he turned his life's career into milking what he got lucky with. He's a self-deteriorated one-trick-pony in my eyes. I know he came up with the premise of Indiana Jones as well, but he passed those projects onto his pal Stephen Spielberg. I always look at Spielberg as a way more robust and varied director. At least Spielberg does different things in his career - he is a much more defined visionary director.

I agree Lucas doesn't deserve much credit for the plot and characters of the original Star Wars, which was essentially a mixture of the novel Dune, the Akira Kurosawa samurai movie Hidden Fortress, and the Flash Gordon comics. In fact, the original plot of Star Wars was a straight lift of The Hidden Fortress, before Lucas made a bunch of changes to the final script.

But I disagree that Lucas just got lucky. While the original SW had a derivative plot and characters, where its originality truly lied was in the visual effects, the likes of which had never been seen before in Hollywood. And with that, George Lucas created the modern VFX-driven blockbuster format that has dominated Hollywood ever since. And then with the sequel, The Empire Strikes Back, he started getting creative with the plot and characters, with surprising twists and turns, such as the "I'm Your Father" scene, arguably the most famous plot twist in movie history. Star Wars didn't become successful just because Lucas got lucky, but because he was a solid script writer and a visionary director who made skillful use of editing and visual effects.

As for why Lucas declined, it was probably because of all the success. When he was young and struggling, he had that hunger and passion. But after he became old and famous, he lost that hunger and became complacent. It can happen to the best of people.

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#32 Edited by uninspiredcup (32807 posts) -

@BenjaminBanklin said:
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

That's how it is for me. Even though Return of the Jedi started the downward slide of Star Wars as a heavily merch-driven franchise beyond having films in the cinema, it was still a satisfying ending to the original trilogy to me. Since then, Star Wars has been anywhere from bad, to merely amusing. It's become a thing that can no longer please all of the people, because it means different things for everyone, including its creator. It's a fractured base.

I think it was a mistake to continue on with the original characters. ROTJ should have been THE END, full stop for the original cast, outside of maybe books and games and what not.

ROTJ has it's problems, namely teddy bears defeating space Nazis with rocks, but it really is a supremely satisfying ending.

(not including the scene destroying "no!")

Hayden Christensen actually (sort of) makes sense, as that was the age Anakin Skywalker changed. I get people being pissed off by it, but that's one of the few additions not much of an issue with.

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#33 Posted by Ezekiel43 (1405 posts) -

@Jag85 said:
@jaydan said:
@ezekiel43 said:
@jaydan said:

In my opinion, the original trilogy will always be peak Star Wars and no matter how many new trilogies get made, nothing will ever top the originals.

Yes. Because it was conceived by a single mind and not drafted by a committee. Say what you want about George Lucas, but he had a vision.

That's also why I prefer Fury Road over pretty much any modern action and adventure movie. George Miller wasn't the sole writer, but he had plenty of artistic control and storyboarded the whole movie.

I think George Lucas is given more credit than he deserves. The way I look at it, he caught 'lightning-in-a-bottle' with his first efforts with the Star Wars franchise. I think it shows because when he came back to do the prequels; well...we know how those ones turned out. He did a few other niche pieces before Star Wars - like American Graffiti - but honestly I don't view him as the spectacular director so many Star Wars fanboys hype him out to be. He got lucky and then he turned his life's career into milking what he got lucky with. He's a self-deteriorated one-trick-pony in my eyes. I know he came up with the premise of Indiana Jones as well, but he passed those projects onto his pal Stephen Spielberg. I always look at Spielberg as a way more robust and varied director. At least Spielberg does different things in his career - he is a much more defined visionary director.

I agree Lucas doesn't deserve much credit for the plot and characters of the original Star Wars, which was essentially a mixture of the novel Dune, the Akira Kurosawa samurai movie Hidden Fortress, and the Flash Gordon comics. In fact, the original plot of Star Wars was a straight lift of The Hidden Fortress, before Lucas made a bunch of changes to the final script.

But I disagree that Lucas just got lucky. While the original SW had a derivative plot and characters, where its originality truly lied was in the visual effects, the likes of which had never been seen before in Hollywood. And with that, George Lucas created the modern VFX-driven blockbuster format that has dominated Hollywood ever since. And then with the sequel, The Empire Strikes Back, he started getting creative with the plot and characters, with surprising twists and turns, such as the "I'm Your Father" scene, arguably the most famous plot twist in movie history. Star Wars didn't become successful just because Lucas got lucky, but because he was a solid script writer and a visionary director who made skillful use of editing and visual effects.

As for why Lucas declined, it was probably because of all the success. When he was young and struggling, he had that hunger and passion. But after he became old and famous, he lost that hunger and became complacent. It can happen to the best of people.

I don't even find the plot of Star Wars that similar to The Hidden Fortress. I don't know why people keep saying that. There are similarities, but it's not the same story. I agree with everything else you said.

Avatar image for Jag85
#34 Posted by Jag85 (13357 posts) -

@ezekiel43 said:
@Jag85 said:
@jaydan said:

I think George Lucas is given more credit than he deserves. The way I look at it, he caught 'lightning-in-a-bottle' with his first efforts with the Star Wars franchise. I think it shows because when he came back to do the prequels; well...we know how those ones turned out. He did a few other niche pieces before Star Wars - like American Graffiti - but honestly I don't view him as the spectacular director so many Star Wars fanboys hype him out to be. He got lucky and then he turned his life's career into milking what he got lucky with. He's a self-deteriorated one-trick-pony in my eyes. I know he came up with the premise of Indiana Jones as well, but he passed those projects onto his pal Stephen Spielberg. I always look at Spielberg as a way more robust and varied director. At least Spielberg does different things in his career - he is a much more defined visionary director.

I agree Lucas doesn't deserve much credit for the plot and characters of the original Star Wars, which was essentially a mixture of the novel Dune, the Akira Kurosawa samurai movie Hidden Fortress, and the Flash Gordon comics. In fact, the original plot of Star Wars was a straight lift of The Hidden Fortress, before Lucas made a bunch of changes to the final script.

But I disagree that Lucas just got lucky. While the original SW had a derivative plot and characters, where its originality truly lied was in the visual effects, the likes of which had never been seen before in Hollywood. And with that, George Lucas created the modern VFX-driven blockbuster format that has dominated Hollywood ever since. And then with the sequel, The Empire Strikes Back, he started getting creative with the plot and characters, with surprising twists and turns, such as the "I'm Your Father" scene, arguably the most famous plot twist in movie history. Star Wars didn't become successful just because Lucas got lucky, but because he was a solid script writer and a visionary director who made skillful use of editing and visual effects.

As for why Lucas declined, it was probably because of all the success. When he was young and struggling, he had that hunger and passion. But after he became old and famous, he lost that hunger and became complacent. It can happen to the best of people.

I don't even find the plot of Star Wars that similar to The Hidden Fortress. I don't know why people keep saying that. There are similarities, but it's not the same story. I agree with everything else you said.

The basic plot structure of the original Star Wars is similar to The Hidden Fortress: Empire invades kingdom, a princess flees from the Empire, rebels are trying to overthrow the Empire, a hero is tasked with protecting the princess, and the story is told from the perspective of two side-characters. And then there's other stuff borrowed from Hidden Fortress, like the screen-wipe transitions, the word "Jedi", Darth Vadar's helmet, the duel between two rivals who were former allies, etc. However, Star Wars combines elements of Hidden Fortress with elements from Dune and Flash Gordon, so the end-result of Star Wars turned out very different from its inspirations.

However, a big reason why the The Hidden Fortress is particularly emphasized is because there's an early rough draft of Star Wars floating around that could almost be considered a riff on The Hidden Fortress. For example, Luke Skywalker was originally depicted as a battle-hardened general very similar to General Rokurota (Toshiro Mifune's character) in The Hidden Fortress, before the final draft changed Luke Skywalker to a younger inexperienced Jedi and instead introduced the older Obi-wan Kenobi as the equivalent of Rokurota (Lucas originally wanted Toshiro Mifune to play Kenobi). Either way, the final draft of Star Wars turned out very different from The Hidden Fortress.

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#35 Posted by Nuck81 (7435 posts) -

That clip is stupid.

It makes no sense story wise or character wise for obi wan.

Obi wan didn't want a long fight. He knew what he was there to do.