Jesus the Messiah, part God.

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#151 Posted by LastRambo341 (8767 posts) -
However, even if you still persist that he rose from the dead, that doesn't prove that he is God because according to Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1Cor 15:15, Acts 2:3132, Acts 3:15, Acts 3:26, Acts 4:10, Acts 5:30, Acts 10:4041, Acts 13:30, Acts 13:34, Acts 13:37, Acts 17:3031, 1Cor 6:14, 2Cor 4:14, Gal 1:1, Eph 1:20, Col 2:12, 1Thess 1:10, Heb 13:20, 1Pet 1:3,and 1Pet 1:21 it was GOD who rose JESUS from the dead
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#152 Posted by ShadowsDemon (10051 posts) -

[QUOTE="Philokalia"]

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

There is no reasonable sense ot be made of this. We've already discussed this ourselves. Logical inference could be used, but inference is a weak form of logical thought and could be used to reach most any conclusion.

You've already tried and failed to distinguish person-hoods from essences in your previous posts here, so why you keep banging this particular drum seems absurd to me, especially when you personally accept the "mystery" of it all.

tenaka2

Actually we only half discussed these and all you showed is that you can't comprehend basic terms. You don't even know what a person is, perhaps because you insert a naturalistic understanding that there is no such thing as the person, the psyche, the whatever but that you didn't even give consideration to it shows that you just don't want to understand it. Like the muslims. Besides you haven't demonstrated anything illogical about the trinity, because you don't want to understand it.

There is no getting around that the trinity is never mentioned in the bible, if it was central to the religion and god and the bible is gods word it would be very obvious and explicit.

Indeed. It is not mentioned at all, and all evidence within the Bible points to the opposite. He's just using his blind faith to ignore the facts, no matter how much is stacked against him. It's sad.
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#153 Posted by RationalAtheist (4428 posts) -

[QUOTE="tenaka2"]

There is no getting around that the trinity is never mentioned in the bible, if it was central to the religion and god and the bible is gods word it would be very obvious and explicit.

ShadowsDemon

Indeed. It is not mentioned at all, and all evidence within the Bible points to the opposite. He's just using his blind faith to ignore the facts, no matter how much is stacked against him. It's sad.

Not really - the duality between Jesus and God is mentioned in the bible several times. I can't understand why trinity deniers forget these parts of the bible, when they lie to say the bible does not ever directly relate Jesus to God.

The bible also has passages that suggest differences between Jesus and God, so the cause of this issue is the contradictory nature of the bible: It lets people cherry-pick the bits they like while ignoring those bits that differ with their view.

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#154 Posted by The-Apostle (12195 posts) -
[QUOTE="FelipeInside"]^^ He died but resurrected remember.LastRambo341
Again, God cannot "die". Resurrect means that you died and then become alive. When he "died", how was the world running? How can an immortal being "die"?

Unless He allowed Himself to die.
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#155 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -
However, even if you still persist that he rose from the dead, that doesn't prove that he is God because according to Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1Cor 15:15, Acts 2:3132, Acts 3:15, Acts 3:26, Acts 4:10, Acts 5:30, Acts 10:4041, Acts 13:30, Acts 13:34, Acts 13:37, Acts 17:3031, 1Cor 6:14, 2Cor 4:14, Gal 1:1, Eph 1:20, Col 2:12, 1Thess 1:10, Heb 13:20, 1Pet 1:3,and 1Pet 1:21 it was GOD who rose JESUS from the deadLastRambo341
The father is God as well, that isn't a contradiction.
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#156 Posted by Bane_09 (3394 posts) -

[QUOTE="Bane_09"]

[QUOTE="Blood-Scribe"]

So yes, you're going to have to find a better example if you want to represent the trinity in terms of formal logic (lol).

FelipeInside

I don't get why religious people try to justify their beliefs with bad logic, it just makes them look stupid

I don't get why Atheists people try to justify that there is no god with bad logic. See what I did there?

You can't logically prove god exists....but good luck trying. It will be amusing to read

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#157 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -

[QUOTE="FelipeInside"][QUOTE="Bane_09"]

I don't get why religious people try to justify their beliefs with bad logic, it just makes them look stupid

Bane_09

I don't get why Atheists people try to justify that there is no god with bad logic. See what I did there?

You can't logically prove god exists....but good luck trying. It will be amusing to read

What do you mean by logic. You can prove that God exists by careful reading analysis and through basic Biblical understanding. But if you are looking for a photograph of him (an instrument that was made in the last few hundred years), then no. Even during the Biblical era God is a person that was not seen with mortal eyes. This is not how God works.
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#158 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -
[QUOTE="LastRambo341"] He never claimed that he was God, but a person SENT by God.

Are you saying that you don't think he is the Son of God either? He said that he is Alpha and Omega, and is one with God, and much more. That sounds like God to me.
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#159 Posted by Nuck81 (6796 posts) -
[QUOTE="champion837"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"] He never claimed that he was God, but a person SENT by God.

Are you saying that you don't think he is the Son of God either? He said that he is Alpha and Omega, and is one with God, and much more. That sounds like God to me.

Being one with something does not make you that thing. It's a metaphoric phrase that describes a deep connection. A man can be one with his dog. Two Dance partners can be as one. But they are still separate things. Jesus was the personification of God, he was the perfect man, everything God created man to be, but he was still just a man.
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#160 Posted by tenaka2 (17052 posts) -

[QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I don't accept the concept of eternity.

Jandurin

you think time is finite?

Of course. Time had a start, therefore it cannot be infinite.

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#161 Posted by tenaka2 (17052 posts) -

[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"][QUOTE="tenaka2"]

There is no getting around that the trinity is never mentioned in the bible, if it was central to the religion and god and the bible is gods word it would be very obvious and explicit.

RationalAtheist

Indeed. It is not mentioned at all, and all evidence within the Bible points to the opposite. He's just using his blind faith to ignore the facts, no matter how much is stacked against him. It's sad.

Not really - the duality between Jesus and God is mentioned in the bible several times. I can't understand why trinity deniers forget these parts of the bible, when they lie to say the bible does not ever directly relate Jesus to God.

The bible also has passages that suggest differences between Jesus and God, so the cause of this issue is the contradictory nature of the bible: It lets people cherry-pick the bits they like while ignoring those bits that differ with their view.

Even if correct that still impiles a duality, not a trinity, a rather large gap.

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#162 Posted by LastRambo341 (8767 posts) -
[QUOTE="champion837"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"] He never claimed that he was God, but a person SENT by God.

Are you saying that you don't think he is the Son of God either? He said that he is Alpha and Omega, and is one with God, and much more. That sounds like God to me.

"Son of God" is just a title Book of Romans 8:14 "For those who are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" The bible said there are other sons of God such as Adam, for example in Luke 3:38, "Kenan was the son of Enosh. Enosh was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God." So, anyone who is pious, anyone who is lead by spirit of God is dubbed as "Son of God", not the literal sense. You're quoting Revelations 1: 11 about the whole "I am Alpha and Omega". Alpha and Omega and the first and last in what? He wasnt the first in this world, Adam was. He wasn't the last either as John 16: 12-14 says that the Spirit of truth shall come and show true things to come. Alpha and Omega refer that in the law of God, Jesus is that because his rules has to be followed. As well as back in Moses' time, he was Alpha and Omega. For Solomon, for Abraham etc. That is not an unambiguous statement stating that Jesus claimed divinity. And even if you truly feel that is claiming divinity, there are many verses in the Bible where it states Jesus doing human activities.
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#163 Posted by LastRambo341 (8767 posts) -
[QUOTE="LastRambo341"][QUOTE="FelipeInside"]^^ He died but resurrected remember.The-Apostle
Again, God cannot "die". Resurrect means that you died and then become alive. When he "died", how was the world running? How can an immortal being "die"?

Unless He allowed Himself to die.

But the moment God "dies", the whole world will collapse because he is not controlling it anymore. Again, God cannot "die" because he is immortal. If us human beings can die, then how can we differentiate ourselves from God? :? Are you saying that we can be God?
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#164 Posted by RationalAtheist (4428 posts) -

Even if correct that still impiles a duality, not a trinity, a rather large gap.

tenaka2

What do you mean "even if correct"?

The bible does infer some concepts of trinity too, for example in Matthew 29:19 and Luke 1:35.

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#165 Posted by RationalAtheist (4428 posts) -

[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I don't accept the concept of eternity.

tenaka2

you think time is finite?

Of course. Time had a start, therefore it cannot be infinite.

Really? When did time start and how do you know this?

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#166 Posted by ShadowsDemon (10051 posts) -

[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"][QUOTE="tenaka2"]

There is no getting around that the trinity is never mentioned in the bible, if it was central to the religion and god and the bible is gods word it would be very obvious and explicit.

RationalAtheist

Indeed. It is not mentioned at all, and all evidence within the Bible points to the opposite. He's just using his blind faith to ignore the facts, no matter how much is stacked against him. It's sad.

Not really - the duality between Jesus and God is mentioned in the bible several times. I can't understand why trinity deniers forget these parts of the bible, when they lie to say the bible does not ever directly relate Jesus to God.

The bible also has passages that suggest differences between Jesus and God, so the cause of this issue is the contradictory nature of the bible: It lets people cherry-pick the bits they like while ignoring those bits that differ with their view.

Yeah, people don't know how to take it literally or figuratively, and use either one to their own advantage when it suits them.
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#167 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -
[QUOTE="LastRambo341"][QUOTE="champion837"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"] He never claimed that he was God, but a person SENT by God.

Are you saying that you don't think he is the Son of God either? He said that he is Alpha and Omega, and is one with God, and much more. That sounds like God to me.

"Son of God" is just a title Book of Romans 8:14 "For those who are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" The bible said there are other sons of God such as Adam, for example in Luke 3:38, "Kenan was the son of Enosh. Enosh was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God." So, anyone who is pious, anyone who is lead by spirit of God is dubbed as "Son of God", not the literal sense. You're quoting Revelations 1: 11 about the whole "I am Alpha and Omega". Alpha and Omega and the first and last in what? He wasnt the first in this world, Adam was. He wasn't the last either as John 16: 12-14 says that the Spirit of truth shall come and show true things to come. Alpha and Omega refer that in the law of God, Jesus is that because his rules has to be followed. As well as back in Moses' time, he was Alpha and Omega. For Solomon, for Abraham etc. That is not an unambiguous statement stating that Jesus claimed divinity. And even if you truly feel that is claiming divinity, there are many verses in the Bible where it states Jesus doing human activities.

"A title", is that a yes or a no? "Book of Romans 8:14 For those who are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" John 3:16 says his "only begotten son" "Alpha and Omega and the first and last in what? He wasnt the first in this world, Adam was." So he made it up? I don't understand, are you doubting what he said about himself? What you are saying isn't clear to me. "There are many verses in the Bible where it states Jesus doing human activities." Yes, because he was a human, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore all of the verses that are about his divinity.
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#168 Posted by MannyDelgado (1187 posts) -

[QUOTE="Jandurin"][QUOTE="RationalAtheist"]

I don't accept the concept of eternity.

tenaka2

you think time is finite?

Of course. Time had a start, therefore it cannot be infinite.

god i hate metaphysics
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#169 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -
[QUOTE="LastRambo341"][QUOTE="The-Apostle"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"] Again, God cannot "die". Resurrect means that you died and then become alive. When he "died", how was the world running? How can an immortal being "die"?

Unless He allowed Himself to die.

But the moment God "dies", the whole world will collapse because he is not controlling it anymore. Again, God cannot "die" because he is immortal. If us human beings can die, then how can we differentiate ourselves from God? :? Are you saying that we can be God?

No, we aren't Jesus. Jesus did die but it isn't a problem since the presence of God still remained while he died if I were to assume.
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#170 Posted by LastRambo341 (8767 posts) -

[QUOTE="LastRambo341"][QUOTE="champion837"] Are you saying that you don't think he is the Son of God either? He said that he is Alpha and Omega, and is one with God, and much more. That sounds like God to me.champion837
"Son of God" is just a title Book of Romans 8:14 "For those who are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" The bible said there are other sons of God such as Adam, for example in Luke 3:38, "Kenan was the son of Enosh. Enosh was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God." So, anyone who is pious, anyone who is lead by spirit of God is dubbed as "Son of God", not the literal sense. You're quoting Revelations 1: 11 about the whole "I am Alpha and Omega". Alpha and Omega and the first and last in what? He wasnt the first in this world, Adam was. He wasn't the last either as John 16: 12-14 says that the Spirit of truth shall come and show true things to come. Alpha and Omega refer that in the law of God, Jesus is that because his rules has to be followed. As well as back in Moses' time, he was Alpha and Omega. For Solomon, for Abraham etc. That is not an unambiguous statement stating that Jesus claimed divinity. And even if you truly feel that is claiming divinity, there are many verses in the Bible where it states Jesus doing human activities.

"A title", is that a yes or a no? "Book of Romans 8:14 For those who are lead by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" John 3:16 says his "only begotten son" "Alpha and Omega and the first and last in what? He wasnt the first in this world, Adam was." So he made it up? I don't understand, are you doubting what he said about himself? What you are saying isn't clear to me. "There are many verses in the Bible where it states Jesus doing human activities." Yes, because he was a human, but that doesn't mean that you can ignore all of the verses that are about his divinity.

- Meaning that he is not literally a son

- John 3:16's word "begotten" has been confirmed by Christian scholars of the highest eminants who are backed by 50 co-operating Christian denominations that it is a fabrication and corruption. If you want proof: The authors of RSV, that is, "thirty-two scholars, assisted by an Advisory Board of fifty representatives of the cooperating denominations," after praising the King James Version as "the noblest monument of English prose" acknowledge the following facts: "Yet the King James Version has grave defects. By the middle of the nineteenth century , the development of Biblical studies and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James Version was based, made it manifest that these defects are so many and so serious as to call for revision of the English translation ... "Sometimes it is evident that the text has suffered in transmission, but none of the versions provides a satisfactory restoration. Here we can only follow the BEST JUDGMENT of competent scholars as to the most probable reconstruction of the original text. In the 1951 version, the word "begotten" of John 3:16,18 was considered as an addition and was taken out. But, in the following revision, in 1971, this correction is considered as a distortion, the surgery was reversed and the word "begotten" replanted again.

God cannot beget. Begetting is an animal act and belong to the lowest animal functions of sex. The moment God begets, he's not God. Because only humans can beget.

- Alpha and Omega is misunderstood

- No one can be a God and a human at the same tim, there is no logical sense. God has no limitations but a man does. How can you have limitations and no limitations at the same time? There are no unambiguous statements where Jesus himself say "I am God" or "Worship me"

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#171 Posted by LastRambo341 (8767 posts) -
[QUOTE="champion837"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"][QUOTE="The-Apostle"] Unless He allowed Himself to die.

But the moment God "dies", the whole world will collapse because he is not controlling it anymore. Again, God cannot "die" because he is immortal. If us human beings can die, then how can we differentiate ourselves from God? :? Are you saying that we can be God?

No, we aren't Jesus. Jesus did die but it isn't a problem since the presence of God still remained while he died if I were to assume.

Assuming? That is not a rational argument. Now you're telling me that there are 2 Gods. Again, God cannot die, otherwise we're all dead
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#172 Posted by FelipeInside (28482 posts) -

[QUOTE="FelipeInside"][QUOTE="Bane_09"]

I don't get why religious people try to justify their beliefs with bad logic, it just makes them look stupid

Bane_09

I don't get why Atheists people try to justify that there is no god with bad logic. See what I did there?

You can't logically prove god exists....but good luck trying. It will be amusing to read

You can't logically prove that God DOESN'T exist. See, goes both ways but ur one of those obvious Atheists who think they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't bother with that kind, I like to have conversations with ones that consider every angle and respect other people's views (like Wisboi here)
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#173 Posted by The-Apostle (12195 posts) -
[QUOTE="LastRambo341"][QUOTE="The-Apostle"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"] Again, God cannot "die". Resurrect means that you died and then become alive. When he "died", how was the world running? How can an immortal being "die"?

Unless He allowed Himself to die.

But the moment God "dies", the whole world will collapse because he is not controlling it anymore. Again, God cannot "die" because he is immortal. If us human beings can die, then how can we differentiate ourselves from God? :? Are you saying that we can be God?

Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.
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#174 Posted by wis3boi (32507 posts) -

[QUOTE="Bane_09"]

[QUOTE="FelipeInside"] I don't get why Atheists people try to justify that there is no god with bad logic. See what I did there?FelipeInside

You can't logically prove god exists....but good luck trying. It will be amusing to read

You can't logically prove that God DOESN'T exist. See, goes both ways but ur one of those obvious Atheists who think they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't bother with that kind, I like to have conversations with ones that consider every angle and respect other people's views (like Wisboi here)

You have to be more specific thoguh when this discusion comes up and you have to be more aware of the majority athiest position.

Correct in not being to prove 'god' exists, but this term is so vague is almost worthless....what god? What kind?

I can say with near complete confidence a personal god does not exist. I can also say that a deistic god could exist. The other issue is, if for whatever reason we found out about one existing (either type) still leaves massive wholes in finding out more about existence as a whole. That's why the default position is non-belief, because there is zero reason to suggest either type of god beign exists until there is a reason to warrent that belief. Until then, people will follow whatever stories they happened to be brought up with.

Most non-believers are comfortable with the answer of "I don't know" when talking about the cosmos and existence. Many theists on the other hand seems to love making the claim they know all about it with certainty. That's one of the big gripes of people like me. You're an aussie, right Felipe? Be glad australia is a rather largely non-theist nation....in the US, fundies just crawl out of the woodwork...at least you have the pleasure of allowing non-theists into your politics :lol:

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#175 Posted by FelipeInside (28482 posts) -

[QUOTE="FelipeInside"][QUOTE="Bane_09"]

You can't logically prove god exists....but good luck trying. It will be amusing to read

wis3boi

You can't logically prove that God DOESN'T exist. See, goes both ways but ur one of those obvious Atheists who think they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't bother with that kind, I like to have conversations with ones that consider every angle and respect other people's views (like Wisboi here)

You have to be more specific thoguh when this discusion comes up and you have to be more aware of the majority athiest position.

Correct in not being to prove 'god' exists, but this term is so vague is almost worthless....what god? What kind?

I can say with near complete confidence a personal god does not exist. I can also say that a deistic god could exist. The other issue is, if for whatever reason we found out about one existing (either type) still leaves massive wholes in finding out more about existence as a whole. That's why the default position is non-belief, because there is zero reason to suggest either type of god beign exists until there is a reason to warrent that belief. Until then, people will follow whatever stories they happened to be brought up with.

Most non-believers are comfortable with the answer of "I don't know" when talking about the cosmos and existence. Many theists on the other hand seems to love making the claim they know all about it with certainty. That's one of the big gripes of people like me. You're an aussie, right Felipe? Be glad australia is a rather largely non-theist nation....in the US, fundies just crawl out of the woodwork...at least you have the pleasure of allowing non-theists into your politics :lol:

No one can say a God exists with 100% confidence, and no one can say a God doesn't exist either. That's fact. No one knows the truth. Now, depends on how each person takes the world around them, they can decide to believe in one (religious) or not believe in one (atheists). I am aware that most Atheists also don't believe in the afterlife. They think that when a person dies, there is nothing beyond, it's just black darkness. I believe in resurrection, but more as in recycling. Everything in the Universe gets recycled, re-used, so why not human beings?
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#176 Posted by Ace6301 (21389 posts) -
[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="FelipeInside"] You can't logically prove that God DOESN'T exist. See, goes both ways but ur one of those obvious Atheists who think they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't bother with that kind, I like to have conversations with ones that consider every angle and respect other people's views (like Wisboi here)FelipeInside

You have to be more specific thoguh when this discusion comes up and you have to be more aware of the majority athiest position.

Correct in not being to prove 'god' exists, but this term is so vague is almost worthless....what god? What kind?

I can say with near complete confidence a personal god does not exist. I can also say that a deistic god could exist. The other issue is, if for whatever reason we found out about one existing (either type) still leaves massive wholes in finding out more about existence as a whole. That's why the default position is non-belief, because there is zero reason to suggest either type of god beign exists until there is a reason to warrent that belief. Until then, people will follow whatever stories they happened to be brought up with.

Most non-believers are comfortable with the answer of "I don't know" when talking about the cosmos and existence. Many theists on the other hand seems to love making the claim they know all about it with certainty. That's one of the big gripes of people like me. You're an aussie, right Felipe? Be glad australia is a rather largely non-theist nation....in the US, fundies just crawl out of the woodwork...at least you have the pleasure of allowing non-theists into your politics :lol:

No one can say a God exists with 100% confidence, and no one can say a God doesn't exist either. That's fact. No one knows the truth. Now, depends on how each person takes the world around them, they can decide to believe in one (religious) or not believe in one (atheists). I am aware that most Atheists also don't believe in the afterlife. They think that when a person dies, there is nothing beyond, it's just black darkness. I believe in resurrection, but more as in recycling. Everything in the Universe gets recycled, re-used, so why not human beings?

Well we do get recycled. There's no evidence there's anything to it other than an energy recycling though. I don't really care what a person believes so long as they note reality and don't try to use their beliefs to subvert reality or to say otherwise in an official manner. I believe in things with no evidence but I fully admit they are without evidence and I'm fully aware that they're not for everyone, so much so that I doubt there's a single person here who knows what I believe in.
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#177 Posted by ShadowsDemon (10051 posts) -

[QUOTE="FelipeInside"][QUOTE="Bane_09"]

You can't logically prove god exists....but good luck trying. It will be amusing to read

wis3boi

You can't logically prove that God DOESN'T exist. See, goes both ways but ur one of those obvious Atheists who think they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't bother with that kind, I like to have conversations with ones that consider every angle and respect other people's views (like Wisboi here)

You have to be more specific thoguh when this discusion comes up and you have to be more aware of the majority athiest position.

Correct in not being to prove 'god' exists, but this term is so vague is almost worthless....what god? What kind?

I can say with near complete confidence a personal god does not exist. I can also say that a deistic god could exist. The other issue is, if for whatever reason we found out about one existing (either type) still leaves massive wholes in finding out more about existence as a whole. That's why the default position is non-belief, because there is zero reason to suggest either type of god beign exists until there is a reason to warrent that belief. Until then, people will follow whatever stories they happened to be brought up with.

Most non-believers are comfortable with the answer of "I don't know" when talking about the cosmos and existence. Many theists on the other hand seems to love making the claim they know all about it with certainty. That's one of the big gripes of people like me. You're an aussie, right Felipe? Be glad australia is a rather largely non-theist nation....in the US, fundies just crawl out of the woodwork...at least you have the pleasure of allowing non-theists into your politics :lol:

It's only the crazies that feel they need to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat that do that sort of stuff.
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#178 Posted by wis3boi (32507 posts) -

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="FelipeInside"] You can't logically prove that God DOESN'T exist. See, goes both ways but ur one of those obvious Atheists who think they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't bother with that kind, I like to have conversations with ones that consider every angle and respect other people's views (like Wisboi here)ShadowsDemon

You have to be more specific thoguh when this discusion comes up and you have to be more aware of the majority athiest position.

Correct in not being to prove 'god' exists, but this term is so vague is almost worthless....what god? What kind?

I can say with near complete confidence a personal god does not exist. I can also say that a deistic god could exist. The other issue is, if for whatever reason we found out about one existing (either type) still leaves massive wholes in finding out more about existence as a whole. That's why the default position is non-belief, because there is zero reason to suggest either type of god beign exists until there is a reason to warrent that belief. Until then, people will follow whatever stories they happened to be brought up with.

Most non-believers are comfortable with the answer of "I don't know" when talking about the cosmos and existence. Many theists on the other hand seems to love making the claim they know all about it with certainty. That's one of the big gripes of people like me. You're an aussie, right Felipe? Be glad australia is a rather largely non-theist nation....in the US, fundies just crawl out of the woodwork...at least you have the pleasure of allowing non-theists into your politics :lol:

It's only the crazies that feel they need to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat that do that sort of stuff.

and here it's half the population

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#179 Posted by LastRambo341 (8767 posts) -
[QUOTE="The-Apostle"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"][QUOTE="The-Apostle"] Unless He allowed Himself to die.

But the moment God "dies", the whole world will collapse because he is not controlling it anymore. Again, God cannot "die" because he is immortal. If us human beings can die, then how can we differentiate ourselves from God? :? Are you saying that we can be God?

Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.

How does that make sense? Again, there is no crystal-clear and unambiguous statement where Jesus himself says, "I am God" or "Worship me" God has no limitations, but a human does. So how can he both a God and a human at the same time? How can he both have limitations and no limitations? Its like saying that its possible to short and tall at the same time. God is immortal, how can he die? If he died, then how can he run the world? If he is God, why would he say in John 14: 28 "My Father is Greater than I" or in Deutronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: the Lord is our God, the Lord is one"?
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#180 Posted by ShadowsDemon (10051 posts) -

[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"][QUOTE="wis3boi"]

You have to be more specific thoguh when this discusion comes up and you have to be more aware of the majority athiest position.

Correct in not being to prove 'god' exists, but this term is so vague is almost worthless....what god? What kind?

I can say with near complete confidence a personal god does not exist. I can also say that a deistic god could exist. The other issue is, if for whatever reason we found out about one existing (either type) still leaves massive wholes in finding out more about existence as a whole. That's why the default position is non-belief, because there is zero reason to suggest either type of god beign exists until there is a reason to warrent that belief. Until then, people will follow whatever stories they happened to be brought up with.

Most non-believers are comfortable with the answer of "I don't know" when talking about the cosmos and existence. Many theists on the other hand seems to love making the claim they know all about it with certainty. That's one of the big gripes of people like me. You're an aussie, right Felipe? Be glad australia is a rather largely non-theist nation....in the US, fundies just crawl out of the woodwork...at least you have the pleasure of allowing non-theists into your politics :lol:

wis3boi

It's only the crazies that feel they need to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat that do that sort of stuff.

and here it's half the population

Damn :/ I don't know a single religious person here in Australia who would do that...
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#181 Posted by GrayF0X786 (4185 posts) -

[QUOTE="LastRambo341"][QUOTE="The-Apostle"] Unless He allowed Himself to die.The-Apostle
But the moment God "dies", the whole world will collapse because he is not controlling it anymore. Again, God cannot "die" because he is immortal. If us human beings can die, then how can we differentiate ourselves from God? :? Are you saying that we can be God?

Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.

are you joking about or you for real?

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#182 Posted by themajormayor (25537 posts) -

[QUOTE="The-Apostle"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"] But the moment God "dies", the whole world will collapse because he is not controlling it anymore. Again, God cannot "die" because he is immortal. If us human beings can die, then how can we differentiate ourselves from God? :? Are you saying that we can be God?GrayF0X786

Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.

are you joking about or you for real?

fvck. lol.
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#183 Posted by FMAB_GTO (14385 posts) -
Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.The-Apostle
I dunno....I mean if that is true wouldn't it make more sense if it was sooner?
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#184 Posted by GrayF0X786 (4185 posts) -

[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.FMAB_GTO
I dunno....I mean if that is true wouldn't it make more sense if it was sooner?

Astagfirilah i never said that!

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#185 Posted by FMAB_GTO (14385 posts) -

[QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"][QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.GrayF0X786

I dunno....I mean if that is true wouldn't it make more sense if it was sooner?

Astagfirilah i never said that!

It is GS screwing things up again X_X I know you wont say that. let me edit it.
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#186 Posted by GrayF0X786 (4185 posts) -

[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]

[QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"] I dunno....I mean if that is true wouldn't it make more sense if it was sooner?FMAB_GTO

Astagfirilah i never said that!

It is GS screwing things up again X_X I know you wont say that. let me edit it.

i knew that lol

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#187 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -

[QUOTE="The-Apostle"][QUOTE="LastRambo341"] But the moment God "dies", the whole world will collapse because he is not controlling it anymore. Again, God cannot "die" because he is immortal. If us human beings can die, then how can we differentiate ourselves from God? :? Are you saying that we can be God?GrayF0X786

Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.

are you joking about or you for real?

What he said was true. Jesus was God in the flesh.
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#188 Posted by MAZ85 (1094 posts) -
[QUOTE="GrayF0X786"]

[QUOTE="The-Apostle"] Not really. Jesus was fully man and fully God. God in the flesh. The only way for God to save us and give us the grace of eternal life was to come down to earth as His Son, die for our sins and raise from the dead. No one else had that power. When He rose that was how we got the Holy Spirit, which dwells within us.champion837

are you joking about or you for real?

What he said was true. Jesus was God in the flesh.

wasn't god able to just forgive us for this " original sin " you are talking about without becoming human and what you are saying he became and did ?
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#189 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -
[QUOTE="champion837"][QUOTE="GrayF0X786"] are you joking about or you for real?MAZ85
What he said was true. Jesus was God in the flesh.

wasn't god able to just forgive us for this " original sin " you are talking about without becoming human and what you are saying he became and did ?

People sin, so God came down to forgive them , it is as simple as that, wow.
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#190 Posted by MAZ85 (1094 posts) -
What he said was true. Jesus was God in the flesh.

wasn't god able to just forgive us for this " original sin " you are talking about without becoming human and what you are saying he became and did ?

People sin, so God came down to forgive them , it is as simple as that, wow.

I'm saying he coul've forgiven them without bothering coming down
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#191 Posted by MAZ85 (1094 posts) -
[QUOTE="champion837"][QUOTE="MAZ85"][QUOTE="champion837"] What he said was true. Jesus was God in the flesh.

wasn't god able to just forgive us for this " original sin " you are talking about without becoming human and what you are saying he became and did ?

People sin, so God came down to forgive them , it is as simple as that, wow.

'm saying he coul've forgiven them without bothering coming down
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#192 Posted by MannyDelgado (1187 posts) -
Oh great, Christian vs. Muslim theological debate. It's like watching kids argue about which is the best power ranger.
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#193 Posted by FelipeInside (28482 posts) -
Oh great, Christian vs. Muslim theological debate. It's like watching kids argue about which is the best power ranger.MannyDelgado
None of them. TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES FTW !!!
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#194 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -
[QUOTE="MAZ85"] I'm saying he coul've forgiven them without bothering coming down

It's supposed to be a sign of love.
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#195 Posted by champion837 (1413 posts) -
Oh great, Christian vs. Muslim theological debate. It's like watching kids argue about which is the best power ranger.MannyDelgado
Um, no it isn't.
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#196 Posted by ShadowsDemon (10051 posts) -
[QUOTE="MannyDelgado"]Oh great, Christian vs. Muslim theological debate. It's like watching kids argue about which is the best power ranger.FelipeInside
None of them. TEENAGE MUTANT NINJA TURTLES FTW !!!

:P Good on ya for setting the mood back to normal
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#197 Posted by wis3boi (32507 posts) -

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"] It's only the crazies that feel they need to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat that do that sort of stuff.ShadowsDemon

and here it's half the population

Damn :/ I don't know a single religious person here in Australia who would do that...

It;s not uncommon to see mega-churches here that look like football stadiums and have rock concerts about jesus, being saved, the horrors of hell, and how terrible gay people are. And all this is tax-free.

Proof.

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#198 Posted by FelipeInside (28482 posts) -

[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"][QUOTE="wis3boi"]

and here it's half the population

wis3boi

Damn :/ I don't know a single religious person here in Australia who would do that...

It;s not uncommon to see mega-churches here that look like football stadiums and have rock concerts about jesus, being saved, the horrors of hell, and how terrible gay people are. And all this is tax-free.

Proof.

Yeah I've seen the photos and video. Over there it's more of a marketing thing (money grabber) than real Religion. BUT I guess it the stupid people that fall for it.

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#199 Posted by wis3boi (32507 posts) -

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="ShadowsDemon"] Damn :/ I don't know a single religious person here in Australia who would do that...FelipeInside

It;s not uncommon to see mega-churches here that look like football stadiums and have rock concerts about jesus, being saved, the horrors of hell, and how terrible gay people are. And all this is tax-free.

Proof.

Yeah I've seen the photos and video. Over there it's more of a marketing thing (money grabber) than real Religion. BUT I guess it the stupid people that fall for it.

it's not really a minority, its close to half the US population that lives like this. That's roughly 140-150 million people. Yes it is part marketing, but the congregations actually believe everything that's taught in these places. In the full documentary with Dawkins when he visited some of these churches, the kids were openly being taught racism and told thing sthat give them a superiority complex. It really makes me ashamed to say I hail from this country

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#200 Posted by FelipeInside (28482 posts) -

[QUOTE="FelipeInside"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

It;s not uncommon to see mega-churches here that look like football stadiums and have rock concerts about jesus, being saved, the horrors of hell, and how terrible gay people are. And all this is tax-free.

Proof.

wis3boi

Yeah I've seen the photos and video. Over there it's more of a marketing thing (money grabber) than real Religion. BUT I guess it the stupid people that fall for it.

it's not really a minority, its close to half the US population that lives like this. That's roughly 140-150 million people. Yes it is part marketing, but the congregations actually believe everything that's taught in these places. In the full documentary with Dawkins when he visited some of these churches, the kids were openly being taught racism and told thing sthat give them a superiority complex. It really makes me ashamed to say I hail from this country

That's really sad. There is nothing wrong with teaching Religion, but not racism or hating gays, cause that's not what Real Religion teaches. For example I don't agree with Homosexuality, but that doesn't mean I go out with signs saying kill all gays.