Is abortion the most controversial LEGAL issue in North America?

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Needhealing

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Poll Is abortion the most controversial LEGAL issue in North America? (22 votes)

Yes, abortion. 27%
Marijuana 5%
Gun control 50%
Death penalty 5%
Animal testing 0%
Right to healthcare 5%
Minimum Wage 0%
Immigration 9%
Other 0%

Seriously, a new poll showed that only 49% were in favor of it. That's insane, considering that Roe v Wade made it legal like more than 40 years ago, but popular opinion continues to go against it and support has dropped from neatly 57% back in 2014.

I have friends who are liberals, pro same sex marriage, gun control, against the death penalty and even legal marijuana. But they are against abortion.

Personally, I'm in favor of it for three points

  • It makes sense economically since the parents who abort might not be able to provide well for their child, this is the majority of cases
  • It's the woman's choice. Since i'm not religious, if it is a fetus they have the right to abort it and the sate should protect the woman's rights.
  • If only there was a higher rate of adoption, but these people who are against abortion don't even bother to rescue these kids which end up on the wrong track.
 • 
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bfa1509

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#1 bfa1509
Member since 2011 • 1058 Posts

I always stay quiet and listen to those who are pro-choice. I almost never engage with them as I know that it will always result in a heated arguement. I just simply can't understand their system of values.

Let me sum up why you are in favor, and correct me if I'm wrong:

You think that economic standing, women's rights, and the chance of the child going down the wrong track should all take precedence over human life?

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Needhealing

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#2 Needhealing
Member since 2017 • 2041 Posts

@bfa1509 said:

I always stay quiet and listen to those who are pro-choice. I almost never engage with them as I know that it will always result in a heated arguement. I just simply can't understand their system of values.

Let me sum up why you are in favor, and correct me if I'm wrong:

You think that economic standing, women's rights, and the chance of the child going down the wrong track should all take precedence over human life?

A fetus isn't a human life, unless your perception of science is skewed.

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LJS9502_basic

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#3 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178810 Posts

@needhealing said:
@bfa1509 said:

I always stay quiet and listen to those who are pro-choice. I almost never engage with them as I know that it will always result in a heated arguement. I just simply can't understand their system of values.

Let me sum up why you are in favor, and correct me if I'm wrong:

You think that economic standing, women's rights, and the chance of the child going down the wrong track should all take precedence over human life?

A fetus isn't a human life, unless your perception of science is skewed.

Ah you're playing word games. A fetus is certainly a human life.

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JoshRMeyer

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#4 JoshRMeyer
Member since 2015 • 12571 Posts

@needhealing: What science class did you go to? It certainly is a life.

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deactivated-5b797108c254e

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#5 deactivated-5b797108c254e
Member since 2013 • 11245 Posts

@bfa1509 said:

I always stay quiet and listen to those who are pro-choice. I almost never engage with them as I know that it will always result in a heated arguement. I just simply can't understand their system of values.

Let me sum up why you are in favor, and correct me if I'm wrong:

You think that economic standing, women's rights, and the chance of the child going down the wrong track should all take precedence over human life?

While I'm pro-choice I can see both sides, to be honest...what I don't understand is people who shout "her body, her choice" and then are against euthanasia...isn't that also "her body,her choice"?

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bfa1509

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#6  Edited By bfa1509
Member since 2011 • 1058 Posts

@korvus: Interesting point. It gives me an idea. I think we should create the slogan: "Fetus's body, fetus's choice" where the terms of abortion are that the fetus has to consent to being aborted. I believe all fetus's must first reach 18 years old before being asked to sign a consent form that they agree to be aborted.

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#7 deactivated-5b797108c254e
Member since 2013 • 11245 Posts

@bfa1509 said:

@korvus: Interesting point. It gives me an idea. I think we should create the slogan: "Fetus's body, fetus's choice" where the terms of abortion are that the fetus has to consent to being aborted. I believe all fetus's must first reach 18 years old before being asked to sign a consent form that they agree to be aborted.

I thought aborting an 18yo was done by telling the little turd "Here's your shit. Bye..."

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SOedipus

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#8 SOedipus
Member since 2006 • 14788 Posts

I thought gun-control was the most controversial...Anyways, I'm Canadian so half of that shit we don't worry about. I'm all for abortion.

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mrbojangles25

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#9  Edited By mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58159 Posts

I don't think it's controversial, I just think people play it safe. "Oh better to be neutral or pro-life than to be misinterpreted wrongly as a baby killer" they say. Otherwise I imagine these people would probably do the rational thing and be pro-choice, pro-choice is all about having your cake and eating it to. Pro-lifers are the ones that want to force you to do something, the tyrants.

I would say the most controversial thing in America right now is probably gun control, followed by immigration. Abortion you either for or against, with guns and immigration there is a much larger grey area imo.

Concerning the stat, I am honestly surprised it's that high; thought it would be lower than 49%. I am not totally happy about it of course, but it's still better than I imagined.

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foxhound_fox

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#10 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

No, it isn't a controversy. In the 21st century, women should have free and safe access to abortion.

And people who oppose abortion should not be called "pro-life" but "pro-birth" because most tend not to care about where the unwanted child ends up after being born.

Personally, I don't have a uterus, so I am not allowed to have an opinion on the topic of abortion outside of women should have access to them.

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bfa1509

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#11 bfa1509
Member since 2011 • 1058 Posts

@korvus said:
@bfa1509 said:

@korvus: Interesting point. It gives me an idea. I think we should create the slogan: "Fetus's body, fetus's choice" where the terms of abortion are that the fetus has to consent to being aborted. I believe all fetus's must first reach 18 years old before being asked to sign a consent form that they agree to be aborted.

I thought aborting an 18yo was done by telling the little turd "Here's your shit. Bye..."

LOL!

@foxhound_fox said:

Personally, I don't have a uterus, so I am not allowed to have an opinion on the topic of abortion outside of women should have access to them.

It was all going so well and you just had to raise this point...

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foxhound_fox

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#12 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

@bfa1509 said:

It was all going so well and you just had to raise this point...

Because a man should tell women what to do with their bodies?

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bfa1509

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#13  Edited By bfa1509
Member since 2011 • 1058 Posts

@foxhound_fox said:
@bfa1509 said:

It was all going so well and you just had to raise this point...

Because a man should tell women what to do with their bodies?

Because only women should decide the fate of millions of unborn babies in the future? We were all unborn babies at one point and we fail as humans by not standing up for those who don't have a voice.

When you see a pro-life protest you generally get an image like this:

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When you see a pro-choice protest you typically get an image like this with a lot of vulgarity and an unhealthy intolerance for any opposing view:

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deactivated-63d1ad7651984

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#14 deactivated-63d1ad7651984
Member since 2017 • 10057 Posts

Gun control is especially this year.

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mandzilla

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#15 mandzilla  Moderator
Member since 2017 • 4686 Posts

I also think gun control.

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#16  Edited By foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

@bfa1509 said:

Because only women should decide the fate of millions of unborn babies in the future? We were all unborn babies at one point and we fail as humans by not standing up for those who don't have a voice.

When you see a pro-life protest you generally get an image like this:

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When you see a pro-choice protest you typically get an image like this with a lot of vulgarity and an unhealthy intolerance for any opposing view:

Yes, women should decide whether or not the clump of cells growing in their uterus should live or die, because without their body, that fetus wouldn't exist. What is this point you are trying to make about protests? Pro-life people have shot up and BLOWN UP abortion clinics and murdered doctors that perform them.

Kind of not "pro-life", no? Pro-life people are more appropriately called pro-birth. I always ask people who get into this debate with me, "how many unwanted children have you adopted or fostered?" Because I bet it's none.

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deactivated-620299e29a26a

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#17 deactivated-620299e29a26a
Member since 2010 • 1490 Posts

I think all of these issues stem from a generational change in America. Baby Boomers are no longer the main voting base and most will not/ cannot get over the fact that their values are not the same as the younger generation.

The majority of the younger generation voting is more culturally diverse (Racism normal for alot of Boomers), they have a much more rigorous financial burdens (healthcare, student loans, lower wages) so they seem to lean more on the Socialist side, because Capitalism has been preditory their adult life.

Religion among todays youth isn't as evangelistic and radical, and the majority of today's youth doesn't give two shits who marries who while Baby Boomers are trying to pass laws for gay marrage cakes. Most of todays youth want to come up with solutions to gun control and abortion rather than go over the same shit ovwr and over for ten years.

Also, (this one is my favorite) most of todays young voters think BOTH the Republican and Democratic parties have failed to adapt to today's standards and want a three pronged party system (not simply libertarian) to address the black and white effect the parties have had on our political system. I think that once some fresh minds that understand how it is now and not how it once was come to run as leaders, we might see some positive changes and hopefully, go back to an America that citizens will show real patriotism for. Not the America now that can't tackle hard point issues like "Is racism okay?" Or "are Nazis bad?"

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#18 deactivated-5f9e3c6a83e51
Member since 2004 • 57548 Posts

Abortion is the best way to check white people

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Balrogbane

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#19 Balrogbane
Member since 2014 • 1051 Posts

At this moment gun control but in general Abortion. I'm soundly against it in all cases where the mother or childs life are not at risk. If there's even a 1% chance that unborn could be considered a human it's not anywhere near worth the risk.

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#20  Edited By Balrogbane
Member since 2014 • 1051 Posts

@foxhound_fox said:

No, it isn't a controversy. In the 21st century, women should have free and safe access to abortion.

And people who oppose abortion should not be called "pro-life" but "pro-birth" because most tend not to care about where the unwanted child ends up after being born.

Personally, I don't have a uterus, so I am not allowed to have an opinion on the topic of abortion outside of women should have access to them.

Says he isn't allowed to have an opinion. States his opinion anyway.

#thuglife

It would seem you are quite opinionated and that's okay. But don't pretend that you aren't giving an opinion. If you really believe the "No Uterus, no opinion" thing then you can't have an opinion for abortion either. Cuz if you do then you, as a man, are holding an opinion contrary to the millions of women who are against abortion.

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#21  Edited By Baconstrip78
Member since 2013 • 1851 Posts

@undefined: Yes. I personally think if you don’t want an abortion don’t have one, but some people actually think it is murder.

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#22 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

I don't think its the most controversial, but it's def up there. Personally speaking, I think that it shouldn't be. Women should have control over their reproductive health, period. Pro-life people tend to defend their position on a religious basis or from a purely emotional perspective. The moment you start to break down the logistics and socio-economic implications of making abortion illegal it starts to break down. It's an untenable position to legally state that life starts from conception and abortion akin to murder/man slaughter.

Every miscarriage would demand an investigation into a cause of death, it would be laughably obscene to treat each of these situations like real world deaths, however it would be mandatory.

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Needhealing

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#23 Needhealing
Member since 2017 • 2041 Posts

@joshrmeyer said:

@needhealing: What science class did you go to? It certainly is a life.

Did you even take a science class? There's a reason why it's legal in most states before the 14 weeks, it's still not considered viable. It doesn't even have a heartbeat at that stage. I consider it a "thing", like a pebble or car and so do many scientists. Also, lawmakers if not it would be considered a crime, but noticed it isn't?

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#24 JoshRMeyer
Member since 2015 • 12571 Posts

@needhealing: So after 14 weeks it's a human? I guess that'd be an ok compromise. But I doubt you'd call it human even then. When do you call a tree a tree? Does it have to be a certain height? Or really any other life form. Weird society has certain "rules" on this. And science has advanced far enough along to easily see inside the uterus to know that that thing is a living thing. Not just some blob.

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#26 Bush_Dog
Member since 2017 • 294 Posts

I voted for Gun Control since I think it's a more important issue than unwanted birth.

@needhealing said:
@joshrmeyer said:

@needhealing: What science class did you go to? It certainly is a life.

Did you even take a science class? There's a reason why it's legal in most states before the 14 weeks, it's still not considered viable. It doesn't even have a heartbeat at that stage. I consider it a "thing", like a pebble or car and so do many scientists. Also, lawmakers if not it would be considered a crime, but noticed it isn't?

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think your referring to an Embryo not a Fetus.

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#27 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

@foxhound_fox said:

Because a man should tell women what to do with their bodies?

Look dude...I'm pro-choice myself, but I have to butt in here. If I thought that abortion was the killing of a human being, then that sort of changes things. I'm all for people being allowed to do whatever with their own bodies, but that sort of becomes a problem once it violates someone else's rights.

Also, never mind that you're a man. Would the situation be any different if you were a woman? Suppose that you were a pregnant woman and some WOMAN told you to have or not have an abortion. Woman or not, it's not HER kid. She can do whatever she wants with HER body, but her body isn't carrying YOUR fetus. Whether ,she's a man or a woman is beside the point.

Anyway, I'm totally pro-choice. But if I saw abortion as being basically murder, then I probably wouldn't be pro-choice.

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#28 MrGeezer
Member since 2002 • 59765 Posts

Also, last I checked there were also plenty of pro-choice people who are having kids of their own instead of adopting. So it's not exactly as if that's a pro-life hypocrisy sort of thing. It'd be convenient if we rounded up all the bums in town and killed them, but I'd still be strongly against such a measure. Still doesn't mean that I'm going to give them my spare change.

Similarly, it's easy to criticize pro-life people for not wanting to adopt someone else's kids, but that's kind of a cheap criticism when MOST PEOPLE (pro-life or pro-choice) choose to have their own kids instead of adopt. A shitload of pro-choice people are in the exact same boat. They'll talk all day about how the OTHER people should adopt kids. But THEM adopting kids? The hell with that.

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mirgamer

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#29 mirgamer
Member since 2003 • 2489 Posts

Passing through the vaginal birth canal determines if you are a human being or just a bag of meat inside a woman's body.

@needhealing said:
@joshrmeyer said:

@needhealing: What science class did you go to? It certainly is a life.

Did you even take a science class? There's a reason why it's legal in most states before the 14 weeks, it's still not considered viable. It doesn't even have a heartbeat at that stage. I consider it a "thing", like a pebble or car and so do many scientists. Also, lawmakers if not it would be considered a crime, but noticed it isn't?

Dude, that is absolutely wrong. The heart starts to beat 6 weeks into a pregnancy.

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JoshRMeyer

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#30  Edited By JoshRMeyer
Member since 2015 • 12571 Posts

@mirgamer: I was thinking that too but didn't feel like pulling out the biology books to bother with this guy.

My daughter was C-Section... Guess she isn't human ?

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#31  Edited By mecha_frieza
Member since 2007 • 1305 Posts

@needhealing: Let me provide a counter argument to your points:

  • It makes sense economically since the parents who abort might not be able to provide well for their child, this is the majority of case -Saying that the child would be a burden is a shitty argument for murder. If the parents didn't want the child then they should have either not had sex or have used protection. Just because someone is a burden doesn't give you the right to murder them.
  • It's the woman's choice. Since i'm not religious, if it is a fetus they have the right to abort it and the sate should protect the woman's rights. -The fetus is not part of the woman's body and this ironically is the same argument that slavers made: it's my land and I can do whatever I want with people that are on my land. Also, the women's right's do not negate the rights of the fetus and in what world would being a mother give you justification to murder?
  • If only there was a higher rate of adoption, but these people who are against abortion don't even bother to rescue these kids which end up on the wrong track. -I am not against adoption at all and I can't say that there are people that are against it. If there are, than that is dumb, but I don't see people protesting against adoption in marches.

It boils down to individual responsibility- if you can't provide for a child then you shouldn't be having sex. If you are going to have sex then you have to be willing to accept the consequences of your actions.

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#32  Edited By tocool340
Member since 2004 • 21647 Posts

Its definitely a top tier topic on the bulletin board of legal issues...

As for my opinion of the topic, I'm pro choice to the extreme part of the scale. It doesn't matter how far into the pregnancy the woman is or if we want to label fetus a lump of cells or not, I consider an abortion illegal only when a baby obtain a certain sense of awareness where they know the difference between life and death. Without that awareness, you are simply ignorant of your own existence and I have a hard time considering it murder unless the child was removed without the parents consent...

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bfa1509

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#33  Edited By bfa1509
Member since 2011 • 1058 Posts

@tocool340 said:

Its definitely a top tier topic on the bulletin board of legal issues...

As for my opinion of the topic, I'm pro choice to the extreme part of the scale. It doesn't matter how far into the pregnancy the woman is or if we want to label fetus a lump of cells or not, I consider an abortion illegal only when a baby obtain a certain sense of awareness where they know the difference between life and death. Without that awareness, you are simply ignorant of your own existence and I have a hard time considering it murder unless the child was removed without the parents consent...

Wow! I appreciate your honesty. This is why free speech is important as without it I would never know that this view even existed.

What if knowing the difference between life and death/self awareness doesn't happen until 3 or 4 months post birth? Does this mean that the parents should be allowed change their mind and "abort" the baby before it reaches 4 months old?

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stuff238

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#34 stuff238
Member since 2012 • 3284 Posts

I never asked to be born.

If I had the choice to be aborted, I would have told my parents to abort me. It is unfair.

I support abortion 100%

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deactivated-5b19214ec908b

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#35 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

@mecha_frieza: it's pretty fucked up that you think children should be used to punish people for their actions.

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LJS9502_basic

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#36 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178810 Posts

@needhealing said:
@joshrmeyer said:

@needhealing: What science class did you go to? It certainly is a life.

Did you even take a science class? There's a reason why it's legal in most states before the 14 weeks, it's still not considered viable. It doesn't even have a heartbeat at that stage. I consider it a "thing", like a pebble or car and so do many scientists. Also, lawmakers if not it would be considered a crime, but noticed it isn't?

Viable is not what you said before though.

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#37  Edited By mecha_frieza
Member since 2007 • 1305 Posts

@toast_burner: How did you jump to that conclusion based on what I said? I think that people need to maintain a level of responsibility. Sorry, but we don't get to kill people in society based on the level on inconvenience or burden they are on you.

People that support abortion have been brainwashed by the left, who for decades have acted like abortion is noting more than a simple outpatient procedure. Watch a late term abortion where the fetus, which is a baby at this point, is hacked to pieces. Where people should be drawing the line isn't subjective, but objective because there is a clear moral choice of right or wrong at play here. We can't draw the line at if the fetus has a heartbeat or not because there are adults who use pacemakers. We can't draw the line at brain activity because there are adults in comas who may wake up, but have minimal to non-existent brain activity. The problem with drawing lines in the whole abortion argument is that every time you draw a line, you are actually drawing a false line that can be applied to an adult human which is why I believe that abortions should not be legal after the conception of the child.

Again, this is based on a level of responsibility and if both parties aren't going to be responsible, then they shouldn't be having sex.

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#38 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178810 Posts

@mecha_frieza said:

@toast_burner: How did you jump to that conclusion based on what I said? I think that people need to maintain a level of responsibility. Sorry, but we don't get to kill people in society based on the level on inconvenience or burden they are on you.

People that support abortion have been brainwashed by the left, who for decades have acted like abortion is noting more than a simple outpatient procedure. Watch a late term abortion where the fetus, which is a baby at this point, is hacked to pieces. Where people should be drawing the line isn't subjective, but objective because there is a clear moral choice of right or wrong at play here. We can't draw the line at if the fetus has a heartbeat or not because there are adults who use pacemakers. We can't draw the line at brain activity because there are adults in comas who may wake up, but have minimal to non-existent brain activity. The problem with drawing lines in the whole abortion argument is that every time you draw a line, you are actually drawing a false line that can be applied to an adult human which is why I believe that abortions should not be legal after the conception of the child.

Again, this is based on a level of responsibility and if both parties aren't going to be responsible, then they shouldn't be having sex.

Not wanting to get into your argument with toast but if there is no brain activity they are not waking up from a coma. They are gone FYI. As for minimal the brain could be allowing the heart to beat but nothing else which also means they aren't coming back. That's not a good analogy for your side. Just saying.

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JoshRMeyer

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#39  Edited By JoshRMeyer
Member since 2015 • 12571 Posts

@LJS9502_basic: Guess I should clarify... I'm still against it. Was surprised he accepted it as a human life after 14 weeks though. Felt like there was some progress made there lol.

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#40 JoshRMeyer
Member since 2015 • 12571 Posts

@mecha_frieza: I'd be all for the govt offering free vasectomies or tube ties for people wanting them. Population control and no unwanted pregnancies from those people that want sex but don't want the possibility of a child.

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mecha_frieza

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#41 mecha_frieza
Member since 2007 • 1305 Posts

@joshrmeyer said:

@mecha_frieza: I'd be all for the govt offering free vasectomies or tube ties for people wanting them. Population control and no unwanted pregnancies from those people that want sex but don't want the possibility of a child.

If it doesn't exponentially raise my taxes then that is something that I could get behind.

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deactivated-5b173a489ba56

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#42 deactivated-5b173a489ba56
Member since 2017 • 367 Posts

@needhealing said:
@bfa1509 said:

I always stay quiet and listen to those who are pro-choice. I almost never engage with them as I know that it will always result in a heated arguement. I just simply can't understand their system of values.

Let me sum up why you are in favor, and correct me if I'm wrong:

You think that economic standing, women's rights, and the chance of the child going down the wrong track should all take precedence over human life?

A fetus isn't a human life, unless your perception of science is skewed.

What is it then? A potato?

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N30F3N1X

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#43 N30F3N1X
Member since 2009 • 8923 Posts
@foxhound_fox said:
@bfa1509 said:

It was all going so well and you just had to raise this point...

Because a man should tell women what to do with their bodies?

It's not their bodies though. It's the children's.