How do you feel about Disney Star Wars now?

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judaspete

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#1 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 3569 Posts

Now that we have a trilogy, some spinoffs, a few TV shows, books, comics, video games... How do you feel about Disney's handling of the property?

I've only seen the movies, so I guess I'm not a "real fan" like some people. While I would say they are kinda messy and inconsistent, overall they are much more enjoyable than what Lucas made. Even Rise of Skywalker (which I rank at the bottom of the new movies) is about on par with Revenge of the Sith (which I rank at the top of the prequels).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

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madrocketeer

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#2  Edited By madrocketeer  Online
Member since 2005 • 7115 Posts

Overall, a bit bland. Like it was shat out of a factory assembly line. I could almost smell the fresh plastic with each product. The Last Jedi was the exception; it took risks, not many of them executed well, but at least they tried.

The prequel trilogy at least had heart in it, even if that heart was made of expired hot dogs and semen.

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#3  Edited By Chutebox
Member since 2007 • 45335 Posts

Main movies are pure shit.

I like the spin off movies and Mandalorian was ok.

Overall, Disney can suck it.

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#4 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 3569 Posts

@madrocketeer said:

Overall, a bit bland. Like it was shat out of a factory assembly line. I could almost smell the fresh plastic with each product. The Last Jedi was the exception; it took risks, not many of them executed well, but at least they tried.

The prequel trilogy at least had heart in it, even if that heart was made of expired hot dogs and semen.

It's kind of unfortunate how people reacted to The Last Jedi. I thought it was going to be the jumping off point for Star Wars to become bold again, but after the backlash it seems to have guaranteed that we will get focus tested, script by committee type stuff for the foreseeable future. Shit, it lead to The Mandalorian staring Limited Edition Shiny Boba Fett, and a Yoda Funkopop. You know the marketing department had to change their pants after that pitch meeting.

To be clear, I find the safe stuff perfectly enjoyable, but I really want more Last Jedi style risks.

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#5 npiet1
Member since 2018 • 3066 Posts

One decent show doesn't make up for everything else.

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#6 sealionact
Member since 2014 • 4823 Posts

I think Rogue One and The Mandalorian were the only noteworthy things they've done. The trilogy was awful, as was Solo. In fact if we could get rid of the Gungans, then Lucas' prequels were vastly superior. For me.

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#7 johnd13
Member since 2011 • 10023 Posts

The Mandalorian is the best thing that came out of Disney acquiring the rights to Star Wars. Rogue One and Solo were ok-ish. The trilogy was inconsistent and unimaginative for the most part though entertaining. Personally, I liked the prequels a lot more - they at least told a coherent and memorable story.

Disney obviously wants to milk Star Wars dry so I expect more bland movies in the future. I'm mostly interested in their shows at this point. Mandalorian season 2 and Obi-Wan.

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#8 uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 38476 Posts

They feel like they try too hard to ape the originals and generally try way to hard to be funny.

Episode 3 I tend to find way more enjoyable, for it's many, canyon sized problems.

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#9 Dagubot
Member since 2020 • 107 Posts

I've never seen Star Wars but have been meaning to watch the movies.

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#10 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 46039 Posts

On one hand, I hate what they did with the last three Episodes (7. 8. and 9).

But I sort of love everything else. Rogue One was incredible, Solo was not half as bad as people wanted it to be (in fact, I think it's fairly good!).

Their series, specifically Rebels, is arguably more in tune with Star Wars lore and culture than any film since the original three Episodes. THis is true for the series Clone Wars as well, though it is pretty hokey at times.

Mandalorian was just plain fun, great fan tribute but also good, concise short stories that still maintain a central plot throughout all the episodes; each one is a self-contained story--a different place, different characters, and so on--but keeps to the driving story as well.

I'm enjoying the new/lost/last season of Clone Wars as well

TL;DR I give Disney about a 78/100....not bad enough to condemn, but they really screwed some major things up (the main films). They have plenty of redeeming qualities though.

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#11  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14975 Posts

Trilogy was garbage, don't care for the Mandalorian. Rogue 1 was legit, as was Fallen Order. Those are my two biggest positive takes from the Disney license. But in terms of what I've traditionally loved about the property, Star Wars is viewed as nothing but a commercial one, not a creative one, and as such, is effectively dead to me.

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#12  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14975 Posts

@dagubot said:

I've never seen Star Wars but have been meaning to watch the movies.

Dude....watch them, and do so in the order of their actual film releases, not narratively. IV, V, and VI firstly, which IMO, are the only truly great Star Wars movies out there with the soul that has built a legend. Try to see the Despecialized Editions if you can, and not the desecrations that Lucas approves of.

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#13  Edited By Ezekiel43
Member since 2017 • 2359 Posts

Rogue One was average, would never watch again.

Solo was average, would never watch again.

The sequel trilogy was ruined by JJ Abrams, would never watch again.

Mandalorian was alright, would not sub for second season.

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#14 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14975 Posts

@judaspete said:
@madrocketeer said:

Overall, a bit bland. Like it was shat out of a factory assembly line. I could almost smell the fresh plastic with each product. The Last Jedi was the exception; it took risks, not many of them executed well, but at least they tried.

The prequel trilogy at least had heart in it, even if that heart was made of expired hot dogs and semen.

It's kind of unfortunate how people reacted to The Last Jedi. I thought it was going to be the jumping off point for Star Wars to become bold again, but after the backlash it seems to have guaranteed that we will get focus tested, script by committee type stuff for the foreseeable future. Shit, it lead to The Mandalorian staring Limited Edition Shiny Boba Fett, and a Yoda Funkopop. You know the marketing department had to change their pants after that pitch meeting.

To be clear, I find the safe stuff perfectly enjoyable, but I really want more Last Jedi style risks.

People reacted badly to TLJ not because it took risks, but because it was shit. It vomited all over the legacy characters, ignored previous plot lines set up, seemingly just to "avert our expectations".

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#15 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 3569 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:
@judaspete said:
@madrocketeer said:

Overall, a bit bland. Like it was shat out of a factory assembly line. I could almost smell the fresh plastic with each product. The Last Jedi was the exception; it took risks, not many of them executed well, but at least they tried.

The prequel trilogy at least had heart in it, even if that heart was made of expired hot dogs and semen.

It's kind of unfortunate how people reacted to The Last Jedi. I thought it was going to be the jumping off point for Star Wars to become bold again, but after the backlash it seems to have guaranteed that we will get focus tested, script by committee type stuff for the foreseeable future. Shit, it lead to The Mandalorian staring Limited Edition Shiny Boba Fett, and a Yoda Funkopop. You know the marketing department had to change their pants after that pitch meeting.

To be clear, I find the safe stuff perfectly enjoyable, but I really want more Last Jedi style risks.

People reacted badly to TLJ not because it took risks, but because it was shit. It vomited all over the legacy characters, ignored previous plot lines set up, seemingly just to "avert our expectations".

Whatever the reason, from an executive's perspective they gave an up and coming director a lot of creative freedom, and the internet got mad. We've been guaranteed a future of studio meddling, and heavily focus-tested concepts. Hence The Mandalorian staring even more marketable versions of the two most marketable characters in all of Star Wars.

Everything else in the pipeline is basically that. Rogue One was well received, lets make a show about the two characters who had half a personality. Ewan McGregor was the best thing about the prequels, how about a show about a middle-aged Obi Wan? I think these will all be good, there is nothing wrong with safe concepts if the show is fun. I'd just like to see something subversive once in a while to balance it out.

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#16  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14975 Posts

@judaspete said:
@MirkoS77 said:

People reacted badly to TLJ not because it took risks, but because it was shit. It vomited all over the legacy characters, ignored previous plot lines set up, seemingly just to "avert our expectations".

Whatever the reason, from an executive's perspective they gave an up and coming director a lot of creative freedom, and the internet got mad. We've been guaranteed a future of studio meddling, and heavily focus-tested concepts. Hence The Mandalorian staring even more marketable versions of the two most marketable characters in all of Star Wars.

Everything else in the pipeline is basically that. Rogue One was well received, lets make a show about the two characters who had half a personality. Ewan McGregor was the best thing about the prequels, how about a show about a middle-aged Obi Wan? I think these will all be good, there is nothing wrong with safe concepts if the show is fun. I'd just like to see something subversive once in a while to balance it out.

The Internet got mad, again, not because the creative freedom Disney afforded Johnson, but because the TLJ was shit film making that pretty much betrayed Star Wars. Yes, there is some fault to be laid at both the executives and Rian's feet for the leeway granted, but that's not why people are angry.

Rian was making his own film, but he was also handed the middle act (arguably the most important) of an over arching trilogy that had foundations to seven other films prior, which had established lore, characterization, and universal continuity. That restricts him somewhat. He was beholden not only to the other films in the general tenets of their fiction, but also to the the specific narrative threads of the preceding film.

So what did he do? He turned around and took a giant dump all over all of it....the specific and the vague. The film had a tangible feeling of contrarianism. To **** up things just to do so. He tossed aside characters (Snoke), destroyed continuity that retro-actively relegated the best scene from past films absurd (Holdo maneuver), left questions unanswered (Rei), and vomited all over beloved characters, turning them into unrecognizable shells of their former selves that fans didn't recognize, and neither did the ACTORS playing them, ffs (Hamill).

I nigh believe that Rian secretly hates Star Wars and passionately loathes its fan base, and that TLJ was a massive troll job. Every time I watch the film, and I've watched it very carefully, I'm astonished at what a huge middle finger it is to, not the fans, but the franchise itself. It is incredibly disrespectful.

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#17 AfterShafter
Member since 2002 • 7016 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:
@judaspete said:
@MirkoS77 said:

People reacted badly to TLJ not because it took risks, but because it was shit. It vomited all over the legacy characters, ignored previous plot lines set up, seemingly just to "avert our expectations".

Whatever the reason, from an executive's perspective they gave an up and coming director a lot of creative freedom, and the internet got mad. We've been guaranteed a future of studio meddling, and heavily focus-tested concepts. Hence The Mandalorian staring even more marketable versions of the two most marketable characters in all of Star Wars.

Everything else in the pipeline is basically that. Rogue One was well received, lets make a show about the two characters who had half a personality. Ewan McGregor was the best thing about the prequels, how about a show about a middle-aged Obi Wan? I think these will all be good, there is nothing wrong with safe concepts if the show is fun. I'd just like to see something subversive once in a while to balance it out.

The Internet got mad, again, not because the creative freedom Disney afforded Johnson, but because the TLJ was shit film making that pretty much betrayed Star Wars. Yes, there is some fault to be laid at both the executives and Rian's feet for the leeway granted, but that's not why people are angry.

Rian was making his own film, but he was also handed the middle act (arguably the most important) of an over arching trilogy that had foundations to seven other films prior, which had established lore, characterization, and universal continuity. That restricts him somewhat. He was beholden not only to the other films in the general tenets of their fiction, but also to the the specific narrative threads of the preceding film.

So what did he do? He turned around and took a giant dump all over all of it....the specific and the vague. The film had a tangible feeling of contrarianism. To **** up things just to do so. He tossed aside characters (Snoke), destroyed continuity that retro-actively relegated the best scene from past films absurd (Holdo maneuver), left questions unanswered (Rei), and vomited all over beloved characters, turning them into unrecognizable shells of their former selves that fans didn't recognize, and neither did the ACTORS playing them, ffs (Hamill).

I nigh believe that Rian secretly hates Star Wars and passionately loathes its fan base, and that TLJ was a massive troll job. Every time I watch the film, and I've watched it very carefully, I'm astonished at what a huge middle finger it is to, not the fans, but the franchise itself. It is incredibly disrespectful.

I love hearing you guys complain about new Star Wars. First off, after TFA, it was "That was so by the numbers. I want something different, unexpected." Then you got it in the next movie and it was all "NO! NOT LIKE THAT!" Now it's just kind of an endless grumbling session which makes it sound like someone gave the Gimp treatment to a popular Pope or something. I honestly think that next to nothing would have made you guys happy as you've basically built the franchise up to be some sort of a holy relic in your head.

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#18  Edited By Serraph105
Member since 2007 • 34628 Posts

I thought the first two were pretty damn good, the second one especially, but the third kind of screwed up most of what the second was trying to set up.

For the record, I don't hate episode 9, but bringing back Palpatine was a weird idea and kind of handled poorly.

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#19 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14975 Posts

@AfterShafter said:
@MirkoS77 said:

The Internet got mad, again, not because the creative freedom Disney afforded Johnson, but because the TLJ was shit film making that pretty much betrayed Star Wars. Yes, there is some fault to be laid at both the executives and Rian's feet for the leeway granted, but that's not why people are angry.

Rian was making his own film, but he was also handed the middle act (arguably the most important) of an over arching trilogy that had foundations to seven other films prior, which had established lore, characterization, and universal continuity. That restricts him somewhat. He was beholden not only to the other films in the general tenets of their fiction, but also to the the specific narrative threads of the preceding film.

So what did he do? He turned around and took a giant dump all over all of it....the specific and the vague. The film had a tangible feeling of contrarianism. To **** up things just to do so. He tossed aside characters (Snoke), destroyed continuity that retro-actively relegated the best scene from past films absurd (Holdo maneuver), left questions unanswered (Rei), and vomited all over beloved characters, turning them into unrecognizable shells of their former selves that fans didn't recognize, and neither did the ACTORS playing them, ffs (Hamill).

I nigh believe that Rian secretly hates Star Wars and passionately loathes its fan base, and that TLJ was a massive troll job. Every time I watch the film, and I've watched it very carefully, I'm astonished at what a huge middle finger it is to, not the fans, but the franchise itself. It is incredibly disrespectful.

I love hearing you guys complain about new Star Wars. First off, after TFA, it was "That was so by the numbers. I want something different, unexpected." Then you got it in the next movie and it was all "NO! NOT LIKE THAT!" Now it's just kind of an endless grumbling session which makes it sound like someone gave the Gimp treatment to a popular Pope or something. I honestly think that next to nothing would have made you guys happy as you've basically built the franchise up to be some sort of a holy relic in your head.

TFA was safe, a basic retread of IV but you'd hear no complaints from me on it.

TLJ was crap filmmaking.

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judaspete

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#20 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 3569 Posts

@MirkoS77: I get that affording creative freedom wasn't the thing people were necessarily mad about, but that is the takeaway the higher-ups took. Hence the very safe and marketable nature current projects in development.

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#21  Edited By KungfuKitten
Member since 2006 • 27106 Posts

Mandalorian was the only good Star Wars thing for me. I saw some of the newer movies and was having a hard time not laughing at how bad the stories were constructed. I went to the cinema for that one where Leia starts flying through space and I couldn't hold it anymore XD

It's fine though, I can do without Star Wars.

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#22 VFighter
Member since 2016 • 6262 Posts

@judaspete: How was having a 2 hour slow car chase movie bold? Cause that's what Last Jedi boiled down to. It also took everything Force Awakens was setting up the trilogy for, threw it in a bag, shit on it and tossed it out the window.

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#23 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 3569 Posts

@MirkoS77:

@vfighter said:

@judaspete: How was having a 2 hour slow car chase movie bold? Cause that's what Last Jedi boiled down to. It also took everything Force Awakens was setting up the trilogy for, threw it in a bag, shit on it and tossed it out the window.

I told myself I wan't going to waist my breath defending TLJ, but I guess I'm just too much of a nerd.

The Last Jedi was bold. Even Mark Hamil, who the whole internet will tell you hates the movie, describes it as such. Making Luke a grumpy curmudgeon suffering form PTSD was a ballsy choice. As was killing Snoke, giving Rey no royal lineage, and questioning the binary nature of the Force. These were all decisions that RJ knew not everyone would like, and he had the guts to go ahead with them. You can hate it, think it's dumb, shat on the franchise legacy, even get all conspiratorial and say he did it because he hates Star Wars and was just trolling the fans, and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinions. But to say it wasn't bold is getting into objective territory. Making choices knowing they will upset a lot of people is bold. Even if you equate this movie to having shit thrown in your face, you have to admit that's bold. It's a dick move, but still a bold one.

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#24 MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14975 Posts

@judaspete said:

@MirkoS77:

@vfighter said:

@judaspete: How was having a 2 hour slow car chase movie bold? Cause that's what Last Jedi boiled down to. It also took everything Force Awakens was setting up the trilogy for, threw it in a bag, shit on it and tossed it out the window.

I told myself I wan't going to waist my breath defending TLJ, but I guess I'm just too much of a nerd.

The Last Jedi was bold. Even Mark Hamil, who the whole internet will tell you hates the movie, describes it as such. Making Luke a grumpy curmudgeon suffering form PTSD was a ballsy choice. As was killing Snoke, giving Rey no royal lineage, and questioning the binary nature of the Force. These were all decisions that RJ knew not everyone would like, and he had the guts to go ahead with them. You can hate it, think it's dumb, shat on the franchise legacy, even get all conspiratorial and say he did it because he hates Star Wars and was just trolling the fans, and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinions. But to say it wasn't bold is getting into objective territory. Making choices knowing they will upset a lot of people is bold. Even if you equate this movie to having shit thrown in your face, you have to admit that's bold. It's a dick move, but still a bold one.

Going out and putting a bullet through someone's head for the money in their wallet is bold. So what. If you see this as a viable line of defense for TLJ, I don't know what to say.

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#25  Edited By osan0
Member since 2004 • 15632 Posts

The last 2 main movies are a complete mess. The last one (Rise of skywalker) was a complete dumpster fire the more i think about it. The only positive i have on that one is they have Princess Leia a good send off under difficult circumstances.

But once they are digging up every single actor from the original trilogy you know they know that they have made an awful blunder and are in serious damage control mode.

I think there was some sort of tug of war with the last Jedi and the director lost. The problem was it wasnt bold enough. There was the whole thing about Reys parents being nobodies. Ok...interesting.....lets see where this goes. it went nowhere. Then Rey and Kylo after killing snoke and Kylo seems to be suggesting just tossing the whole dark side/light side divide. Very interesting......but nope. not happening.

The force awakens was solid. it was a good boot up of the whole thing and was a solid platform for a new trilogy. Not spectacular. but solid.

The Solo movie was also pants.

Rogue one was good though.

On the movies front i think Disney need to be brave. The next one has to stand on its own. not tie backs to the old movies. No skywalker and co. The only things it should have are the star wars name, it being set in a galaxy far far away, lightsabers and blasters. A bit like knights of the old republic: first they need to make a great movie, then they need to make it a great star wars movie.

The Mandolorian had a great first season and i look forward to the second. honestly its the best thing to come out of star wars since KOTOR.

TL;DR: They have a lot more misses than hits at the moment. But when they hit they hit well.

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#26 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 3569 Posts

@MirkoS77 said:
@judaspete said:

@MirkoS77:

@vfighter said:

@judaspete: How was having a 2 hour slow car chase movie bold? Cause that's what Last Jedi boiled down to. It also took everything Force Awakens was setting up the trilogy for, threw it in a bag, shit on it and tossed it out the window.

I told myself I wan't going to waist my breath defending TLJ, but I guess I'm just too much of a nerd.

The Last Jedi was bold. Even Mark Hamil, who the whole internet will tell you hates the movie, describes it as such. Making Luke a grumpy curmudgeon suffering form PTSD was a ballsy choice. As was killing Snoke, giving Rey no royal lineage, and questioning the binary nature of the Force. These were all decisions that RJ knew not everyone would like, and he had the guts to go ahead with them. You can hate it, think it's dumb, shat on the franchise legacy, even get all conspiratorial and say he did it because he hates Star Wars and was just trolling the fans, and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinions. But to say it wasn't bold is getting into objective territory. Making choices knowing they will upset a lot of people is bold. Even if you equate this movie to having shit thrown in your face, you have to admit that's bold. It's a dick move, but still a bold one.

Going out and putting a bullet through someone's head for the money in their wallet is bold. So what. If you see this as a viable line of defense for TLJ, I don't know what to say.

Yes, you've essentially repeated my final point using a different analogy. So I guess we're in agreement there.

People seem to have such a visceral hatred of TLJ that they are critical of every single facet of the movie, even when it doesn't make sense. Like Vfighter saying it wasn't bold because it had a long chase scene. That's almost a non-sequitur.

This movie has flaws, a lot of them, but there are things it does better than any other film in the franchise. The most obvious being cinematography and character direction. If Revenge of the Sith had and actor as good as Adam Driver play Anakin, and a director who could direct actors well as Rian Johnson, it would be a masterpiece.

In all the other movies fight sequences, every character employs basically the same move set. TLJ has three very distinct styles from each force user. Rey is spontaneous a and unwieldy, like someone who learned to fight on the street. Kylo Ren uses big aggressive strikes, well trained but you can see his rage get the best of him. Luke is completely defensive, exclusively using dodge and disarm maneuvers, LIKE ALL JEDI SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THIS WHOLE GODDAMN TIME! "Always for defense, never attack". My foot Obi Wan. More like, "Always lop off an appendage. Just always do it".

Everything else I like is stuff you all hate, so I'll just skim by saying I love everything about the Luke/Ben/Rey arc, am mostly fine with the Poe/Holdo one, and totally admit the Finn/Rose one doesn't work. But I can look past the parts that don't work because I like how they all fit together with the underlying theme of making mistakes and learning form them.

Anyhow, you didn't like the movie, and that is fine. Entertainment is subjective, and I don't think you're a moron for liking different stuff than me. But I am a nerd who gets weirdly worked up when I think people criticize this movie unfairly. So if you read all this, thanks for listening :)

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#27  Edited By johnd13
Member since 2011 • 10023 Posts

@judaspete: At first I was very disappointed with TLJ but after the shallow fanservice of RoS I now appreciate it a bit more. It took risks and felt like a proper movie that didn't come out of the Disney factory.

It was far from a great Star Wars movie though. It had its moments but the flaws far outweigh them. Still it didn't leave me indifferent like RoS did. That movie made me realize that the new trilogy should never have happened.

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#28  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14975 Posts

@judaspete: Yes, you've essentially repeated my final point using a different analogy. So I guess we're in agreement there.

When you say, "These were all decisions that RJ knew not everyone would like, and he had the guts to go ahead with them", that's a not a defense of the film which is what we're discussing. Otherwise, why bring it up, unless you contend that TLJ was shit thrown in our face? If so, then yes, we agree.

Rian was bold, but that says absolutely nothing on the film, only on Rian's actions as a director. You can be a complete hack while being bold.

This movie has flaws, a lot of them, but there are things it does better than any other film in the franchise. The most obvious being cinematography and character direction. If Revenge of the Sith had and actor as good as Adam Driver play Anakin, and a director who could direct actors well as Rian Johnson, it would be a masterpiece.

I agree with you on cinematography, but no amount of competent direction can compensate for abysmal character writing. Lucas is renowned for lacking skill in directing his actors, which is a testament to how strong the core writing and mythology was in the OT supporting and helping to mitigate his particular insufficiency as a director.

In all the other movies fight sequences, every character employs basically the same move set. TLJ has three very distinct styles from each force user. Rey is spontaneous a and unwieldy, like someone who learned to fight on the street. Kylo Ren uses big aggressive strikes, well trained but you can see his rage get the best of him. Luke is completely defensive, exclusively using dodge and disarm maneuvers, LIKE ALL JEDI SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THIS WHOLE GODDAMN TIME!

Which, in the previous films, at least the OT, they did. Both Vader and Luke were equally aggressive and defensive at various points. Luke tended towards being overly aggressive with Vader in V, with Vader playing the defensive, toying with him. Yet at the end he unleashed his dark side, of which Luke was quickly overwhelmed. Luke was defensive and calm, keeping to the light side in VI, yet gave in to temptation of the dark when Vader broke him. It was perfectly shown in the OT, and that they didn't abide the philosophies of their force alignments at every moment they fought doesn't mean they didn't hold to them. They were consistent in their styles and alignments respective to the timing of their character arcs and contexts. In fact in TLJ, I'd argue there was no nuance or fluctuations in them, which just goes to show how lacking the writing really was.

Aisde, we never got to see Luke fight with his saber in the new trilogy due to that wasted ending; of course he had to evade and be exclusively defensive, as he was a projection, but you are conflating that technicality for an underlying philosophy. In the OT, it depended on what time in their character arcs you were watching, which is indicative of competent writing and development.

Everything else I like is stuff you all hate, so I'll just skim by saying I love everything about the Luke/Ben/Rey arc, am mostly fine with the Poe/Holdo one, and totally admit the Finn/Rose one doesn't work. But I can look past the parts that don't work because I like how they all fit together with the underlying theme of making mistakes and learning form them.

Look, take all this in good humor alongside a wink. I enjoy discussing Star Wars, it feeds my inner nerd.

We can argue specifics, but in the end, what bothers me the most is that I consider Rian to be nothing but a desecrator of modern mythology. People say Star Wars are just films, and that's true, and they can roll their eyes at me all they please, but the OT transcended the medium they exist in to become a cultural phenomenon which holds immense relevance and impact. They speak to fundamental human truths, they are a wonderful encapsulation of modern mythology, people treasure what they told us, and Rian shit all over it. I don't care what anyone says, it's what he did.

Bold? Sure.....and still garbage.

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VFighter

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#29 VFighter
Member since 2016 • 6262 Posts

@judaspete: You're confusing the word bold with dumb, dumb is the word you're looking for.

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#30  Edited By Willy105
Member since 2005 • 25030 Posts

Solo and TRoS were awful, but overall Disney Star Wars has been pretty good. My main complaint is that it is too reliant on OT nostalgia, and the idea of releasing one movie each year was bound to destroy the IP.

However, my favorite one was Rogue One, which was literally OT, and releasing a movie each year didn't do too much damage to the franchise (other than being half the reason Solo completely flopped, the other being the casting for Han), so they came out pretty good either way.

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#31 judaspete
Member since 2005 • 3569 Posts

@vfighter said:

@judaspete: You're confusing the word bold with dumb, dumb is the word you're looking for.

Those terms are not mutually exclusive. In fact I'd say a lot of dumb ideas are bold :)

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#32 judaspete
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@MirkoS77:

Fights in the OT were a couple dudes banging glow sticks together, and one of them was usually encumbered by a big plastic costume. It's still exciting because of the story being told, but the choreography is a product of it's time. My assessment still applies though, as you say, we see both Luke and Vader go back and forth between more aggressive and defensive tactics. There isn't really a dark style vs light style on display here. But I was thinking more about the prequels. The fight scenes are impressive and look like a lot of work went into them, but it seems like every character was trained by one guy.

As for Luke, yeah, we never see him in a real fight to the death. But I still say the duel with Kylo Ren and his quick confrontation with Rey are perfect examples of how a Jedi should fight. Dodges and disarms. Always for defense, never attack. None of this "I hack off limbs to defend my friends" crap.

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#33 judaspete
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@johnd13 said:

@judaspete: At first I was very disappointed with TLJ but after the shallow fanservice of RoS I now appreciate it a bit more. It took risks and felt like a proper movie that didn't come out of the Disney factory.

It was far from a great Star Wars movie though. It had its moments but the flaws far outweigh them. Still it didn't leave me indifferent like RoS did. That movie made me realize that the new trilogy should never have happened.

I appreciate when people who didn't like TLJ can still recognize what it does well. Kind of a light/dark dichotomy to how I enjoy it despite it's flaws :)

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#34 Serraph105
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@judaspete said:
@MirkoS77 said:
@judaspete said:

@MirkoS77:

@vfighter said:

@judaspete: How was having a 2 hour slow car chase movie bold? Cause that's what Last Jedi boiled down to. It also took everything Force Awakens was setting up the trilogy for, threw it in a bag, shit on it and tossed it out the window.

I told myself I wan't going to waist my breath defending TLJ, but I guess I'm just too much of a nerd.

The Last Jedi was bold. Even Mark Hamil, who the whole internet will tell you hates the movie, describes it as such. Making Luke a grumpy curmudgeon suffering form PTSD was a ballsy choice. As was killing Snoke, giving Rey no royal lineage, and questioning the binary nature of the Force. These were all decisions that RJ knew not everyone would like, and he had the guts to go ahead with them. You can hate it, think it's dumb, shat on the franchise legacy, even get all conspiratorial and say he did it because he hates Star Wars and was just trolling the fans, and that is fine. You are entitled to your opinions. But to say it wasn't bold is getting into objective territory. Making choices knowing they will upset a lot of people is bold. Even if you equate this movie to having shit thrown in your face, you have to admit that's bold. It's a dick move, but still a bold one.

Going out and putting a bullet through someone's head for the money in their wallet is bold. So what. If you see this as a viable line of defense for TLJ, I don't know what to say.

Yes, you've essentially repeated my final point using a different analogy. So I guess we're in agreement there.

People seem to have such a visceral hatred of TLJ that they are critical of every single facet of the movie, even when it doesn't make sense. Like Vfighter saying it wasn't bold because it had a long chase scene. That's almost a non-sequitur.

This movie has flaws, a lot of them, but there are things it does better than any other film in the franchise. The most obvious being cinematography and character direction. If Revenge of the Sith had and actor as good as Adam Driver play Anakin, and a director who could direct actors well as Rian Johnson, it would be a masterpiece.

In all the other movies fight sequences, every character employs basically the same move set. TLJ has three very distinct styles from each force user. Rey is spontaneous a and unwieldy, like someone who learned to fight on the street. Kylo Ren uses big aggressive strikes, well trained but you can see his rage get the best of him. Luke is completely defensive, exclusively using dodge and disarm maneuvers, LIKE ALL JEDI SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING THIS WHOLE GODDAMN TIME! "Always for defense, never attack". My foot Obi Wan. More like, "Always lop off an appendage. Just always do it".

Everything else I like is stuff you all hate, so I'll just skim by saying I love everything about the Luke/Ben/Rey arc, am mostly fine with the Poe/Holdo one, and totally admit the Finn/Rose one doesn't work. But I can look past the parts that don't work because I like how they all fit together with the underlying theme of making mistakes and learning form them.

Anyhow, you didn't like the movie, and that is fine. Entertainment is subjective, and I don't think you're a moron for liking different stuff than me. But I am a nerd who gets weirdly worked up when I think people criticize this movie unfairly. So if you read all this, thanks for listening :)

See, this is what gets me upset about the reaction to this movie in the series specifically. It's fine to like or dislike a movie, but people who hated this one started personally attacking those who enjoyed it. I basically agree with your sum up of the different story arcs and enjoy the film overall, but the "fans" of the series who are calling others stupid for daring to enjoy TLJ just piss me off. People aren't dumb for liking the film any more than you are are dumb for disliking it, it's opinion, pure and simple. Please respect others enough to refrain from shitting on them for having a different one.

You can tell others that you disagree with their opinions, you can tell people which parts of a movie that made you hate it, but don't tell them they are somehow intellectually inferior because they don't agree with you on a piece of art. That's going beyond the movie and going after the viewers.

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#35  Edited By MirkoS77
Member since 2011 • 14975 Posts

@judaspete said:

@MirkoS77:

Fights in the OT were a couple dudes banging glow sticks together, and one of them was usually encumbered by a big plastic costume. It's still exciting because of the story being told, but the choreography is a product of it's time. My assessment still applies though, as you say, we see both Luke and Vader go back and forth between more aggressive and defensive tactics. There isn't really a dark style vs light style on display here. But I was thinking more about the prequels. The fight scenes are impressive and look like a lot of work went into them, but it seems like every character was trained by one guy.

As for Luke, yeah, we never see him in a real fight to the death. But I still say the duel with Kylo Ren and his quick confrontation with Rey are perfect examples of how a Jedi should fight. Dodges and disarms. Always for defense, never attack. None of this "I hack off limbs to defend my friends" crap.

I agree, at least in IV, the saber fight between Vader and Obi didn't really demonstrate much nuance that would reflect their force alignments. But in V and VI there was. That Vader became defensive and Luke aggressive didn't betray their philosophies. Vader went ballistic at Luke at the end of Empire, and Luke, a trained Jedi, was calm and collected with Vader in VI....fully defensive until Vader broke him, when Luke was at his greatest temptation and in the greatest danger of falling. He was feeding the dark side, it's why the Emperor was so pleased. V's fight and the entire ending fight of VI depends on what you're arguing isn't present.

The saber fights in the prequels sucked. They look exactly like what they are....choreographed dances, as you said, done by one person. No personality, no emotional ebb and flow, all flash. The OT fights, simple they may have been, were driven by the inner conflict, not the outer choreography. I find them much more impactful and satisfying, even if more rudimentary in their execution. I didn't mind the saber fights in TLJ admired them going back to the older style, but the fact that I didn't care one whit for any characters due to shit writing made them uninteresting and nothing but set pieces.

A Jedi not attacking exemplifies the underlying philosophy they live by, not the specific tactics in battle. They don't believe in using the force to attack and impose their will (as the dark side does), only to defend and keep the peace with it. Jedis still fight and kill, but only if they must. Both they and the Sith are equally capable and deadly in combat. Obi hacking off the guy's limb was perfectly in line with Jedi teachings. That he didn't kill him, (when a Sith certainly would've) speaks to as much.