Hamas vs Israel in 5 minutes

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Darkman2007

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#51 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

seeds of the conflict really starts to show up right around WWII.

Anyone who'se done a bit of research on the holocaust, specifically what was going on before the Nazi's took over the country, and even then before the Nazi's went full on "Final Solution" mode. A lot of Jews were trying to leave the region for safer places. one of the top places was the US. unfortunately it was pretty common to be anti-semetic back then in the good ol' USA of as well. even turning a ship full of refugees to return to Germany (a bit ironic if you know what is said on the statue of liberty).

The one other really popular place that was possible to move to was to the British Mandate of Palestine, or as the Jews think of it - Israel. It got so bad with so many immigrants coming in that the British made fixed rates of how many could come in, that didn't help.

It's foolish to say that Israel was made just out of guilt for what happened in WWII, it wasn't like the British just pop gave up empty desert territory to the Jews, there was already a large number of Jewish people living there, a conflict was certain to happen regardless of what the British tried doing.

the conundrum is, the people of Palestine were not soverign, they couldn't tell the colonial empire - Britain - no to anymore Jewish refugees. in a sense, imagine if some third party held down Texas, and let Mexicans return there almost uninhibited, whenever that third party decides to leave or what to do with the territory doesn't matter. a fight's gonna happen regardless.

Hamas, Islamic jihad and whatever other terror groups in the Palestinian territory are fighting a suicidal fight. there is no calculus that can be crunched where any sort of asymmetrical engagement gives the Islamic terror groups a clear win, no political victory is ever gonna provide a state nevermind the elimination of the state.

and no nearby Arab/Islamic nation is gonna throw their neck on the line against Israel now, especially when it has tactical nukes.

and even then, on my Facebook feed, a lot of people howling about the bombings in Gaza... the year is 2012, the state of Israel was born in 1948. that's 64 years. most of us on this forum are 25 or younger. Just try and think about that, let that reality sink in.

The Palestinians must come up with a new strategy, making a plea to the UN will not do, suicide bombings will not do, neither will home-made rockets either. don't give the Israeli's more reason to paint the oppressed as the oppressors.

The dream of a Palestinian state is almost gone. armed resistance is no longer an option, and if they still wanna get suicidal, i got a good peaceful alternative. An Example. but it would require strong grassroot leadership by the Palestinians to unequivocally be against violence. give the IDF, and the Israeli hawks no reason to latch on to to continue the state of affairs. shame them for the situation, and the world will most certainly listen.

the Palestinians were gonna be 'collateral damage' anyways, might as well walk straight up to em at the border.

By the way, the notion being peddled around here that if the Palestinians just abandoned violence that the Israeli's would magically just be allright is foolish to the highest degree. this is politics, and war. no one is nice, no one is with pure intent. I sympathize greatly with the Palestinians for unwillingness to fully give up armed resistance, by evidence of what the Palestine Papers showed, the idea that the Israeli's are the arbiter of fairness and equity in negotiations is absolutely laughable.

and shows absolute ineptness and naivety.

---------------

and if your reading this and you want a Jewish perspective, listen to Darkman, he's the one who knows the most about it. Shadowmoses is like the cartoon stereotype of the American Jew who naively, simpleton and blindingly supports Israel.

SaudiFury
this is informative, relatively unbiased, much better than alot of nonsense other people post here. Saudifury even knows the right people
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DevilMightCry

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#53 DevilMightCry
Member since 2007 • 3554 Posts
Fu*king Jews. I wish Hitler succeeded in wiping them all out. A damn shame he didn't...PernicioEnigma
I wish your mom was pro-choice.
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tenaka2

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#54 tenaka2
Member since 2004 • 17958 Posts

[QUOTE="PernicioEnigma"]Fu*king Jews. I wish Hitler succeeded in wiping them all out. A damn shame he didn't...DevilMightCry
I wish your mom was pro-choice.

He is only kidding.

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LJS9502_basic

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#55 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178810 Posts
Hamas being terminated might be a step in the right direction......but the Palestinians keep them in power. Which is why they aren't innocent IMO.
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FMAB_GTO

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#56 FMAB_GTO
Member since 2010 • 14385 Posts
Meanies bullying others who don't accept bullying.
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LJS9502_basic

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#57 LJS9502_basic
Member since 2003 • 178810 Posts
Meanies bullying others who don't accept bullying.FMAB_GTO
What's wrong with your avatar?
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FMAB_GTO

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#58 FMAB_GTO
Member since 2010 • 14385 Posts
[QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"]Meanies bullying others who don't accept bullying.LJS9502_basic
What's wrong with your avatar?

hmmm?What's wrong with it? ;o i see nothing wrong. What're you seeing?
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th3warr1or

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#59 th3warr1or
Member since 2007 • 20637 Posts
[QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"][QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"]Meanies bullying others who don't accept bullying.FMAB_GTO
What's wrong with your avatar?

hmmm?What's wrong with it? ;o i see nothing wrong. What're you seeing?

An animated .gif with a red "x" at the top left.
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FMAB_GTO

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#60 FMAB_GTO
Member since 2010 • 14385 Posts
[QUOTE="th3warr1or"][QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"][QUOTE="LJS9502_basic"] What's wrong with your avatar?

hmmm?What's wrong with it? ;o i see nothing wrong. What're you seeing?

An animated .gif with a red "x" at the top left.

Then you're seeing what I want you to see :3
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th3warr1or

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#61 th3warr1or
Member since 2007 • 20637 Posts
[QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"][QUOTE="th3warr1or"][QUOTE="FMAB_GTO"] hmmm?What's wrong with it? ;o i see nothing wrong. What're you seeing?

An animated .gif with a red "x" at the top left.

Then you're seeing what I want you to see :3

I see. Looks as though some flash image failed to load or something. :P
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FMAB_GTO

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#62 FMAB_GTO
Member since 2010 • 14385 Posts
[QUOTE="th3warr1or"] I see. Looks as though some flash image failed to load or something. :P

It's a cool trick eh ;3
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jrabbit99

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#63 jrabbit99
Member since 2007 • 2836 Posts
Hamas being terminated might be a step in the right direction......but the Palestinians keep them in power. Which is why they aren't innocent IMO.LJS9502_basic
Many if not most of the people in Gaza though actually want Hamas out of power. Hamas is known to kill its own citizens. I've heard reports that someone tried to leave after reading an Israeli leaflet drop warning of an attack, and Hamas shot him on national TV so that other people would not leave. They have also executed numerous Fatah party members after the coup.
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avneet1

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#64 avneet1
Member since 2005 • 236 Posts

I am not a stereotype, stop calling me that. I'm just tired of people always making Israel and Jews into the bad guy, I feel bad for the people suffering in Gaza, maybe a 2 state will be the only solution and I have disagreed with some of Israel's actions in the past (like blocking aid ships) but when I come on here all I see is people bashing Israel and acting like it's the devil. And I find that offensive.

I have plenty of Muslim and Arab friends, two of whom are from eastern Palestine. Neither of us hate each other, they know Israel is not the devil like people on here think.

ShadowMoses900
Sorry if I came off that way, but I definitely don't think neither Israel and Jews, nor Gaza and Palestinians as the bad guys. I blame certain types of people from either side that are causing all this. Through all of that, innocent people on both sides get stuck living through constant war zone type atmospheres.
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WhiteKnight77

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#65 WhiteKnight77
Member since 2003 • 12605 Posts

[QUOTE="LegitGamer3212"]

So basically what I got out of this thread is, After WW2 displaced Jews needed somewhere to go so they invaded Palestinian territory, carved out a piece of land and made it their home. This home is now called Israel. Palestinians and many other Arab nations want to remove the Jews and this placed called Israel so they shower them all the time with mortar and artillery. The U.S feels bad for Israel so the U.S supplies Israel with high tech weapons, with these high tech weapons they successfully defend themselves against many Arab nations including Palestine. Now Palestine and the Arab nations are pissed once again and want to kick the Jews out and claim back this land called Israel that the Jews created. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

mayceV


kinda close. However, the Jews were rallying for a state since 1898. in 1914 Brittan supported the Balfour agreement which gave the Jews Palestine without Arab's consent.

In the early days everything was fine jews came to Palestine on a limit of 100k per year this didn't put any stress on he arab majority. They broke bread. Jews and Arabs worked together as equals especially in the Orange industry.

The Yaffa Orange was for palestinians what cotton was for Egypt. this demand grew and Palestinians shared knowledge about the plant to Jewish migrants. Jews helped out by bringing modern day equipment into the process. This peace lasted until Palestinians refused some business deals with Britian. Britian then built a port in Tel Aviv. This was the first big friction point between arabs and Jews. This put stress on the Jaffa Orange coming out of Jaffa.

The second big batch of Jews arrived with Zionisitc Ideals. They used the camera to paint Jews as the people who saved the Holy land which they made out as a barren land forgotten and just waiting for modernization.

They used the Orange industry to stapple that falicy. Every camera angle would be taken from below to paint the Jews as heros rising above thier recent disasters while every arab in the clips would be chosen and look like they were illiterate and uneducated. The films never showed any upstanding Arab plantation owners which at the time were far larger than any Jewish one, and ephamsized Jewish Orange brands.

Tension began to rise as more jews came at a faster rate than before, a result help greatly of the films, and Arabs called for jews to stop comming in fearing that the Arab majority would be lost. They rioted not for the Jews to leave in 1939 but to stop more from comming in. Many Jews interview that lived durring the riots claimed they didn't feel in danger durring the conflict cementing the fac that arabs didn't try to boot them out. Granted there were some hard headed arabs that represented a smaller minority that were intent on booting the Jews out.

in 1948 Israel was established and Palestinians refused to acknowledge the state. Regional players got involved Egypt's Muhammad saeed(?) wanted tot he jewd to be thrown out into the sea. th war happened and the Zionist terror groups depopulated 500+ villages wheras man of the wealthier famiies ran away do to financial ability to do so.

Isael was created. in 1967 conflict betwen syria and Israel led Egypt to block Israel's rout to the red sea by positioning a war vessel in international water in the staiight near eliat. Israel took this as a declaration of war. arabs lost again. 1973 yom kipur war was a war between Israel and Egypt aimed to jumpstart the peace process which Egypt then did the whole peace agreement thing. Jordan Followed suit in 1993.

Palestians in all this over the years were thrown from country to country effectively ruining everything the graced :lol: they pulled lebanon into the conflict and got massacred in 1987 by a nationalist militant group. Lebonese hate ensued

in 1971(?) militants began to build up in Jordan and actualy gained much land a and support by the pople bt lost sight of thier goal and built up positiion in the camps in Jordan. king Hussien then moved the army in and a bloody conflic arose. Jordanian hate ensued.

Palestine as a state, in 1988 the PLO dictated itself as the sole representitive of the palestinians in the conflict. They cut off king hussien who was the representative and ruler of the territories between 1948 and 1967. A palestinian state was declared on the borders of 1967. Israel began building settlements in the west bank in 1993+ after the oslo accords. The Oslo acorrds made the PLo recognized as a transitional government until 2001 when supposedly Palestine would gain independence.

Oslo accords collapsed negotiations collapsed Hamas gaind more support as Fateh became a sell out. Hamas won the 2006 elections because fateh was hated all around. Fateh lost sight of the goal which is Palsetinian rights not a state alone. Hamas did some idiotic move and shot down the Oslo accords and previos agreement between Israel and the PLO. the US and Israel tried to undermine them and gaza was cut off from the world. Fateh is the defcato party in the west bank and Hamas is the defacto party in Gaza.

Israel expaned its settlement policy and is choking of any frm of deveopment in the west bank and collectively punishing Gaza.

Now Hamas isn't an agnel quite contrary, both fateh and hamas have tons of bloo on thier hands as does Israel all three parties are road blocks to peace. the end.

Don't forget that the Israelites first formed Israel as early as 1200-1300 BCE and lived there until 63BCE when the Romans kicked them out.

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deactivated-5b19214ec908b

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#66 deactivated-5b19214ec908b
Member since 2007 • 25072 Posts

The Jews want to live in peace and democracy, but an anti-semitic terrorist group known as Hamas does not want this so they kill Jews on sight and fire rockets at civilians.

Israel trying to protect it's self and it's people hunts Hamas down and tries to kill them, all the while trying to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible (which are caused by Hamas using civilians to hide behind). Then the anti-semites across the world try to put the blame on Israel and Zionists.

Also Hamas isn't the only threat, there are other terrorist groups such as Hezbolla that want to kill Jews as well. There are 22 Arab countries and even more Muslim countries, there is only 1 very small Jewish country. It's easy to see who is being bullied here, it's Israel.

This is truth, end of story. Make sure you are on the side of the Jews, we are the good guys and we love our supporters!

ShadowMoses900

I'm starting to think that ShadowMoses isn't even Jewish, he's just pretending to be to make jews look bad.

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Darkman2007

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#67 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

[QUOTE="LegitGamer3212"]

WhiteKnight77

Don't forget that the Israelites first formed Israel as early as 1200-1300 BCE and lived there until 63BCE when the Romans kicked them out.

well , there were Jews that lived there afterwards (the last major revolt was in 132AD). its just they stopped being the majority, and those numbers were further eroded over time by things like forced conversions, invasions, crusades etc.

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WhiteKnight77

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#68 WhiteKnight77
Member since 2003 • 12605 Posts

[QUOTE="WhiteKnight77"]

[QUOTE="LegitGamer3212"]

Darkman2007

Don't forget that the Israelites first formed Israel as early as 1200-1300 BCE and lived there until 63BCE when the Romans kicked them out.

well , there were Jews that lived there afterwards (the last major revolt was in 132AD). its just they stopped being the majority, and those numbers were further eroded over time by things like forced conversions, invasions, crusades etc.

The point is that Israel was there long before a Palestine was, as you well know.

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avneet1

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#69 avneet1
Member since 2005 • 236 Posts

As were the Native Americans here in the U.S. As much as it sucks that they lost the land that was originally theirs, Palestinians can't now be removed after they called it their home for all this time because it used to be Jewish land an extremely long time ago. Just the same that Native Americans can't get the U.S. back anymore since we've lived here so long.

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Darkman2007

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#70 Darkman2007
Member since 2007 • 17926 Posts

As were the Native Americans here in the U.S. As much as it sucks that they lost the land that was originally theirs, Palestinians can't now be removed after they called it their home for all this time because it used to be Jewish land an extremely long time ago. Just the same that Native Americans can't get the U.S. back anymore since we've lived here so long.

avneet1
so what is the homeland of the Jews?
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mayceV

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#71 mayceV
Member since 2008 • 4633 Posts

[QUOTE="mayceV"]

WhiteKnight77

Don't forget that the Israelites first formed Israel as early as 1200-1300 BCE and lived there until 63BCE when the Romans kicked them out.

while that is true, it doesn't rally ad much to the conflict. empires fall and people are conquered. and Jews didn't fully leave, while they were a minority to christians until Islam took root. Then the Ottomans took the Arabs over. thing that happened 2000 years ago don't have anything more than symbolic meaning. What I'm trying to get at is, Arabs by inlarge were alright with Jews being there until they threatened becoming a majority. I can't really blame he jews though because anti semitic sentimet was on the rise in Europe and the US.

Palestinians had no control over the actions of britian and unfortunate desicions by Britian, terror gangs and Arabs lead to the conflict.

Had the ideals of zionism been closer to colonialism then right now there would be peace. The fundamental problem is Zionism. At the time you have to realize that arabs weren't zionist (duh.), they were normal people living normal lives in the middle east. They liked that life and were developing.

Zionism unlike colonialism had no place for the native arabs (lets be frank here arabs turned into the natives, the majority Jews were gone for a while.) This mixed with regional rivalries and pan arab nationalism which had its roots durring ottoman nationalism

(Ottomans tried killing of the arabic language and ECT. . Arabs revolted and felt betrayed when Britian and France chopped them up and divided them. This built up hatered for everything non-Arab).

Now building upon that, the US made so many mistakes in the region not even in context of Palestine V. Israel. The region was a playround durring the cold war, creating more hatred towards the west. Puppet governments, formal invasions, and veto of anything that may have hurt the intrests of Israel is why Arabs hate the west and Israel.

Personally, I'm a more westernized Palestinian but no one here (in the middle east) thinks that way. they hardly think about the future let alone sympathy , its a 3rd world country they think about day to day things. I laugh at what the US and the west are trying to do, they think they can win the hearts of the arabs, sad reality is that they have screwed up the region so much that there'll be hatered for the west for quite a while. The culture here is more to trust your own kind, most arabs despise all the Gulf monarchies because they feel like puppets. Lets face it, they are.

Personaly though, I think it'd be best for all outside parties to stay clear of the area unless Israel is attacked directly. let the regional change simmer for a good 10 years. Every single country here is in a transition, Jordan for example in 10-15 years will likely turn into a constitutional monarchy (the King controls the constitution as of now.) poking these countries with a political stick isn't gonna be good.

Lastly, it isn't like the US and Europe are in any position to spend extra time and money that they don't have on countries that have shown to be a handful.

EDIT: sounded like a huge ramble, now it is less so.

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DoomZaW

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#72 DoomZaW
Member since 2007 • 6475 Posts

Well i cant do it in 5, but this guy can in 11

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lordreaven

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#73 lordreaven
Member since 2005 • 7239 Posts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-evIyrrjTTY

This Youtube link explains the situation perfectly.