Explosion in Oslo, Norway. Terrorist Attack. 90+ Dead.

While what he did was horrific, and he himself is a monster...he sure does look hilariously ludicrous in this posed shot. His Mini-14 rifle as well.

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

[QUOTE="Xtasy26"]

Lol what? Who in the world is saying violent attacks such as this should be taken out of context? What people are saying is for example do the Jews had the right to defend againsts Nazis for example, even if that involves violence? So, you are saying we should just roll over and let the Nazis kill jews or any other religious minority?

Xtasy26

No, that's not what I'm saying. You and I are on different wavelengths here. :)

In this thread, quite a few have come on and wrongly claimed Islam the culprit, said that it is violent, and responsible for many terrorist attacks. Somebody then comes in in the defense of Islam and states it is not a violent religion. Then when someone else posts verses from the Quran that demonstrate and promote violent action, they are rebutted under the premise that it's not violent because they've been taken out of context. That's what I disagree with. It comes off as a cop-out. I don't care WHAT context this is in:

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Even viewed in context, that still strikes me as quite brutal. This is not that difficult to see. And yes, I'll be the first to agree that Jews and others absolutely have the right to fight and kill to protect themselves, but that's not the issue. The issue is, if they did so, I could not then go on to claim that their retaliation was "peaceful" simply because it was justified, which is what you (and those who claim Islam to be absolutely peaceful) seem to be arguing.

But why do ignore the verses that precede the verse you quoted and the verses that comes after it? Isn't that selective reading?

With your second point, how are you going to fight fascism by being "peaceful"? Do people have a right if they are living in dictatorial society where a fasicsm runs rampant, do they have the right to use violence to get rid of that fasicsm? Yes or No.

So has the final death count been lowered?MushroomWig

yeah it's 76 now

[QUOTE="MushroomWig"]So has the final death count been lowered?Harisemo

yeah it's 76 now

[QUOTE="Half-Way"]

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

Absolutely. What else would you call it? Peaceful retribution? I think you're misunderstanding me....I'm not attempting to lay blame at Islam's feet here, I'm just saying what I see. It irks me whenever someone comes out after a violent act is carried out in Islam's name (or any other) and states, "no no no, you don't understand.....it's not violent, because it's meant to be taken incontext." So what? It is still violent. I don't need to be an expert in Islam to see that some of the passages are fairly brutal, as many are in other religions. But no, we can't actually come out and SAY that in today's world, especially about Islam, it's too politically incorrect.

I'm not meaning to single out Islam, this applies towards all.And yes, I know this wasn't carried out by Muslims, but by some right wing Christian fundamentalist nut.

civic_misfit

i think thats the most important part here, most of these type of debates start because some person is religiously biased, while its clear that all of them had their share of blood spill.

Maybe. But not all of them continue to spill blood.

like i said, you must have a religious bias if you truly believe that :lol:

[QUOTE="civic_misfit"]

[QUOTE="Half-Way"]

i think thats the most important part here, most of these type of debates start because some person is religiously biased, while its clear that all of them had their share of blood spill.

Half-Way

Maybe. But not all of them continue to spill blood.

like i said, you must have a religious bias if you truly believe that :lol:

Try looking outside of just Christianity/Islam.

Bombing in peaceful part of Europe?

Muslim terrorists?

What a surprise! :o

....not.

Phaze-Two

:lol:

Bombing in peaceful part of Europe?

Muslim terrorists?

What a surprise! :o

....not.

Phaze-Two

[QUOTE="Half-Way"]

[QUOTE="civic_misfit"]

Maybe. But not all of them continue to spill blood.

civic_misfit

like i said, you must have a religious bias if you truly believe that :lol:

Try looking outside of just Christianity/Islam.

the only major religion that doesn't seem to be doing much blood spill is Buddhism, but its also quite different from religions in the traditional sense.

but even then. Its hard to define what is really religiously focused terrorism as oppose to political terror or terror with hidden agendas. But thats an entirely different discussion,

As for this one, its important to stay neutral and dont accuse one of doing more wrong then other. Especially considering the media cant always be trusted when it comes to objectivity, or concentrating on one issue rather then more.

terrorism has never been exlusive to one religion or point of viewThe_Last_Ride

[QUOTE="Phaze-Two"]

Bombing in peaceful part of Europe?

Muslim terrorists?

What a surprise! :o

....not.

The_Last_Ride

now that actually really is a surprise!

good job muslims! it wasn't you this time!

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"][QUOTE="Phaze-Two"]

Bombing in peaceful part of Europe?

Muslim terrorists?

What a surprise! :o

....not.

Phaze-Two

now that actually really is a surprise!

good job muslims! it wasn't you this time!

oh you Americans :lol:

[QUOTE="Phaze-Two"]

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"] i think we made it quite clear that it isn't a muslim terroristHalf-Way

now that actually really is a surprise!

good job muslims! it wasn't you this time!

oh you Americans :lol:

At least i was right about the attacker being a religious extremist.

[QUOTE="Half-Way"]

[QUOTE="Phaze-Two"]

now that actually really is a surprise!

good job muslims! it wasn't you this time!

Phaze-Two

oh you Americans :lol:

At least i was right about the attacker being a religious extremist.

well he was actually politically motivated :P He described himself as moderately religious. But he did compare himself to the knight Templar

so the terrorist's lawyer says he is insaneThe_Last_Ride

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"]so the terrorist's lawyer says he is insaneAce6301

[QUOTE="Xtasy26"]

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

No, that's not what I'm saying. You and I are on different wavelengths here. :)

In this thread, quite a few have come on and wrongly claimed Islam the culprit, said that it is violent, and responsible for many terrorist attacks. Somebody then comes in in the defense of Islam and states it is not a violent religion. Then when someone else posts verses from the Quran that demonstrate and promote violent action, they are rebutted under the premise that it's not violent because they've been taken out of context. That's what I disagree with. It comes off as a cop-out. I don't care WHAT context this is in:

"I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Even viewed in context, that still strikes me as quite brutal. This is not that difficult to see. And yes, I'll be the first to agree that Jews and others absolutely have the right to fight and kill to protect themselves, but that's not the issue. The issue is, if they did so, I could not then go on to claim that their retaliation was "peaceful" simply because it was justified, which is what you (and those who claim Islam to be absolutely peaceful) seem to be arguing.

Teenaged

But why do ignore the verses that precede the verse you quoted and the verses that comes after it? Isn't that selective reading?

With your second point, how are you going to fight fascism by being "peaceful"? Do people have a right if they are living in dictatorial society where a fasicsm runs rampant, do they have the right to use violence to get rid of that fasicsm? Yes or No.

So, enlighten me what was he referring to again? Should people should just roll over when some fasicst government like the Nazis is going after a particular religious group because of their religion?

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]

[QUOTE="Xtasy26"]

But why do ignore the verses that precede the verse you quoted and the verses that comes after it? Isn't that selective reading?

With your second point, how are you going to fight fascism by being "peaceful"? Do people have a right if they are living in dictatorial society where a fasicsm runs rampant, do they have the right to use violence to get rid of that fasicsm? Yes or No.

Xtasy26

So, enlighten me what was he referring to again? Should people should just roll over when some fasicst government like the Nazis is going after a particular religious group because of their religion?

You are either not reading or not understanding what I'm saying at all, and have created a straw-man as Teenaged so rightly pointed out arguing against something I did not even state in the first place. As a matter of fact, I wrote,

"And yes, I'll be the first to agree that Jews and others absolutely have the right to fight and kill to protect themselves,"

....which you seemed to have missed. I'm no pacifist, I've alluded to this fact in my previous posts and will state it explicitly here for you again. You may want to reread all my past relies to you, because I won't address straw-mans and am growing tired of reiterating myself over and over.

[QUOTE="Xtasy26"]

[QUOTE="Teenaged"]You're making a straw-man argument here by presenting rekunta as a pacifist while he didnt claim or hint that he is one.

Rekunta

So, enlighten me what was he referring to again? Should people should just roll over when some fasicst government like the Nazis is going after a particular religious group because of their religion?

You are either not reading or not understanding what I'm saying at all, and have created a straw-man as Teenaged so rightly pointed out arguing against something I did not even state in the first place. As a matter of fact, I wrote,

"And yes, I'll be the first to agree that Jews and others absolutely have the right to fight and kill to protect themselves,"

....which you seemed to have missed. I'm no pacifist, I've alluded to this fact in my previous posts and will state it explicitly here for you again. You may want to reread all my past relies to you, because I won't address straw-mans and am growing tired of reiterating myself over and over.

Okay, so it doesn't matter whether you considered action A or B eventhough it may be violent and the manner it proceeds as long as it's used to defend one selves against religious persecution? Yes?

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

[QUOTE="Xtasy26"]

So, enlighten me what was he referring to again? Should people should just roll over when some fasicst government like the Nazis is going after a particular religious group because of their religion?

Xtasy26

You are either not reading or not understanding what I'm saying at all, and have created a straw-man as Teenaged so rightly pointed out arguing against something I did not even state in the first place. As a matter of fact, I wrote,

"And yes, I'll be the first to agree that Jews and others absolutely have the right to fight and kill to protect themselves,"

....which you seemed to have missed. I'm no pacifist, I've alluded to this fact in my previous posts and will state it explicitly here for you again. You may want to reread all my past relies to you, because I won't address straw-mans and am growing tired of reiterating myself over and over.

Okay, so it doesn't matter whether you considered action A or B eventhough it may be violent and the manner it proceeds as long as it's used to defend one selves against religious persecution? Yes?

No offense meant, but your use of English is a bit confusing, and I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.

Do I believe people have the right to defend themselves from persecution? Yes. Do I believe they have the right to use violence as a means against it? Absolutely. Do I believe therefor it's not then violent because it's being used as self defense? NO. That's all I'm saying, and I don't know why this is so hard to understand. It's a simple point, and I honestly don't know how else to express it.

[QUOTE="Xtasy26"]

[QUOTE="Rekunta"]

You are either not reading or not understanding what I'm saying at all, and have created a straw-man as Teenaged so rightly pointed out arguing against something I did not even state in the first place. As a matter of fact, I wrote,

"And yes, I'll be the first to agree that Jews and others absolutely have the right to fight and kill to protect themselves,"

....which you seemed to have missed. I'm no pacifist, I've alluded to this fact in my previous posts and will state it explicitly here for you again. You may want to reread all my past relies to you, because I won't address straw-mans and am growing tired of reiterating myself over and over.

Rekunta

Okay, so it doesn't matter whether you considered action A or B eventhough it may be violent and the manner it proceeds as long as it's used to defend one selves against religious persecution? Yes?

No offense meant, but your use of English is a bit confusing, and I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here.

Do I believe people have the right to defend themselves from persecution? Yes. Do I believe they have the right to use violence as a means against it? Absolutely. Do I believe therefor it's not then violent because it's being used as self defense? NO. That's all I'm saying, and I don't know why this is so hard to understand. It's a simple point, and I honestly don't know how else to express it.

Okay, I understand. It's kind of like people who are against the death penalty. The point I was making is that whether one believes in the death penalty or not, it doesn't still doesn't take it away from the fact that the person being put to death may have been a serial killer. Get my drift....

[QUOTE="The_Last_Ride"]terrorism has never been exlusive to one religion or point of viewkuraimen

Christianity is past the days when the Catholic Church ruled the world...and I guess you've never heard of the Ottoman empire...

What Christianity was like hundreds of years ago doesn't mean it's like that today...

I'm an atheist, so please, don't claim this religious bias crap.