Economics: Minimum Wage

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#51 Posted by deactivated-57e5de5e137a4 (12929 posts) -

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]Minimum wage has to exist so long as inflation exists. Otherwise the poor people and less connected parts of the country would starve every time our money decreased in value. Cons are that you have fewer jobs available, but again that would only be a con until the people starved and died out because they couldn't afford food and healthcare.thegerg
So if inflation stops there should be no minimum wage?

There could be. I have no idea if there shouldn't be because there's no such thing as an economy this big without inflation.

 

Still, if there were no inflation, everyone would know how much it would cost to live at different levels of wealth. People would know exactly how much they'd need to get by. It would be much easier.

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#52 Posted by thegerg (18089 posts) -

[QUOTE="thegerg"][QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]Minimum wage has to exist so long as inflation exists. Otherwise the poor people and less connected parts of the country would starve every time our money decreased in value. Cons are that you have fewer jobs available, but again that would only be a con until the people starved and died out because they couldn't afford food and healthcare.guynamedbilly

So if inflation stops there should be no minimum wage?

There could be. I have no idea if there shouldn't be because there's no such thing as an economy this big without inflation.

 

Still, if there were no inflation, everyone would know how much it would cost to live at different levels of wealth. People would know exactly how much they'd need to get by. It would be much easier.

There could be in a situation with inflation too. Whether or not inflation exists is a silly reason to support a minimum wage.
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#53 Posted by Zeviander (9503 posts) -
Minimum wage is directly tied to inflation. It also doesn't allow an employer to punish lazy or poor workers.
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#54 Posted by Abbeten (3140 posts) -
Minimum wage is directly tied to inflation. It also doesn't allow an employer to punish lazy or poor workers.Zeviander
milton friedman rolling over in his grave
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#55 Posted by deactivated-57e5de5e137a4 (12929 posts) -

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]

[QUOTE="thegerg"] So if inflation stops there should be no minimum wage?thegerg

There could be. I have no idea if there shouldn't be because there's no such thing as an economy this big without inflation.

 

Still, if there were no inflation, everyone would know how much it would cost to live at different levels of wealth. People would know exactly how much they'd need to get by. It would be much easier.

There could be in a situation with inflation too. Whether or not inflation exists is a silly reason to support a minimum wage.

No, it's the only legitimate reason. Our money is worth less every day. A poor person who is dependent just on minimum wage is the one who is hardest hit by inflation. They need to increased pay to survive. When all of the economy at once is worth less, pay does not automatically adjust to balance that. It's not reality.

 

Edit: People arguing about it from a free market perspective need to open their eyes to the fact that we are not in a free market.  Subsidies are currently the way of things so we need to think about how to fix what we have.  That's kind of like complaining about the Klingons being rude while walking through Disneyworld.  Let's focus on the reality we currently live in.

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#56 Posted by k2theswiss (16599 posts) -
[QUOTE="JML897"][QUOTE="dave123321"]About increasing/decreasing/deletinggamerguru100
wtf are there seriously people who want to get rid of minimum wage :|

Or decrease it too. My French teacher told us that minimum wage in France is like $16 or something and that it's a livable wage. And then there's MURRICA! We're #1 ! We're #1! HUR HUR HUR with $7.25 as minimum wage, which is not livable. WTF, America?

IDK if true as i never looked into it but i hear it's like that due to everyone works less hours so more people can have a job,
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#57 Posted by thegerg (18089 posts) -

[QUOTE="thegerg"][QUOTE="guynamedbilly"] There could be. I have no idea if there shouldn't be because there's no such thing as an economy this big without inflation.

 

Still, if there were no inflation, everyone would know how much it would cost to live at different levels of wealth. People would know exactly how much they'd need to get by. It would be much easier.

guynamedbilly

There could be in a situation with inflation too. Whether or not inflation exists is a silly reason to support a minimum wage.

No, it's the only legitimate reason. Our money is worth less every day. A poor person who is dependent just on minimum wage is the one who is hardest hit by inflation. They need to increased pay to survive. When all of the economy at once is worth less, pay does not automatically adjust to balance that. It's not reality.

No, the only legitimate reason is to insure that workers can make a reasonable wage. It does not rely on the existence of inflation, even if inflation didn't exist it would still be possible for a worker to not make enough to live on if there were no minimum wage.

 

 

Your arument might be a good argument for having these wages stay in step with inflation, but does not offer a legitimate reason for a minimum wage to exist in the first place.   

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#58 Posted by sSubZerOo (47097 posts) -

Minimum wage is directly tied to inflation. It also doesn't allow an employer to punish lazy or poor workers.Zeviander

.. Except you know, fire them.  In right to work states a employer can fire a employee for anything..   So I have no clue what your talking about what so ever.. 

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#59 Posted by Netherscourge (16363 posts) -

Lowering minimum wage would increase the poverty level.

Increasing the poverty level would drain the system even faster then it already is.

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#60 Posted by Nonstop-Madness (9821 posts) -
Its suppose to set a bar for entry level, unskilled labor. Minimum wage isn't and shouldn't be a living wage. Here in MA, minimum wage is $8 an hour yet I've never been paid less than $12 an hour even during an internship.
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#61 Posted by Zeviander (9503 posts) -
Except you know, fire them.sSubZerOo
Union.
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#62 Posted by sSubZerOo (47097 posts) -

[QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Except you know, fire them.Zeviander
Union.

:|  ?  Where? Unions make up a small % of the workforce now and have been attacked on all sides.. 

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#63 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Except you know, fire them.sSubZerOo

Union.

:|  ?  Where? Unions make up a small % of the workforce now and have been attacked on all sides.. 

Canada
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#64 Posted by Zeviander (9503 posts) -
Where? sSubZerOo
Canada. You'd be surprised what a corporate union can accomplish here.
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#65 Posted by mattbbpl (13912 posts) -

[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="Fightingfan"] The Federal reserve does control minimum wage-- not directly, but with inflation they do. the dollar loses value annually, but people don't get raises to counter-react that inflation. Fightingfan

Are you referring to the target 2% to 3% inflation? A slight amount of inflation is good for the economy. Granted, I'd prefer that they use NGDP targeting rather than inflation targeting, but that idea is slowly gaining traction.

I was referring to "target", though I hate that word since realistically the central bank doesn't control that target they simply accommodate interest rates to it.

*The bad part is unless you have money you can't take advantage of the downward spikes of interest rates. Only helps the already rich, or financially established.

I think target is a fine term for it. They don't directly control it, but that's what they aim to attain by setting the mechanisms they do control (kind of like how the player directly controls the dart as he/she tries to hit the target).

But regardless, I agree with you on the second statement (at least in a way). Theoretically the drop in interest rates should increase aggregate demand by increasing the money supply, but thanks to the drop in the everyman's net worth and tighter credit policies from banks that isn't having as profound of an affect as it otherwise would.
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#66 Posted by Audacitron (971 posts) -

Maybe there needs to be a maximum wage. 

 

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#67 Posted by k2theswiss (16599 posts) -

[QUOTE="Zeviander"][QUOTE="sSubZerOo"]Except you know, fire them.sSubZerOo

Union.

:|  ?  Where? Unions make up a small % of the workforce now and have been attacked on all sides.. 

my policy? don't work for one...
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#68 Posted by coolbeans90 (21305 posts) -

Minimum wage is directly tied to inflation.Zeviander
You are drunk.

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#69 Posted by Abbeten (3140 posts) -

[QUOTE="Zeviander"]Minimum wage is directly tied to inflation.coolbeans90

You are drunk.

nnnnnnope thats me
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#70 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -
Need to think of my next economics thread
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#71 Posted by mattbbpl (13912 posts) -
Need to think of my next economics threaddave123321
Please... I'm begging you....
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#72 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -
[QUOTE="dave123321"]Need to think of my next economics threadmattbbpl
Please... I'm begging you....

You should get a sig and avatar. Or just an avatar
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#73 Posted by Mafiree (3704 posts) -
In terms of increasing the minimum wage..... There are increased wages for some workers and some displaced workers (fairly small),. these displaced workers will likely be young (16-25)......
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#74 Posted by mattbbpl (13912 posts) -
[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="dave123321"]Need to think of my next economics threaddave123321
Please... I'm begging you....

You should get a sig and avatar. Or just an avatar

Yeah, I had one until... yesterday, I think? Gamespot goofed, it seems. Haven't bothered to replace it yet.
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#75 Posted by coolbeans90 (21305 posts) -

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="Zeviander"]Minimum wage is directly tied to inflation.Abbeten

You are drunk.

nnnnnnope thats me

jelly

studying for a mean midterm atm

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#76 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -
[QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="dave123321"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"] Please... I'm begging you....

You should get a sig and avatar. Or just an avatar

Yeah, I had one until... yesterday, I think? Gamespot goofed, it seems. Haven't bothered to replace it yet.

GS changed the rules of where you can host images for avatars and such. http://www.gamespot.com/features/offsite-image-hosting-rules-are-changing-what-you-need-to-know-6402780/
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#77 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -
Teacher vs athlete salaries seems to be a good next topic
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#78 Posted by mattbbpl (13912 posts) -
[QUOTE="dave123321"][QUOTE="mattbbpl"][QUOTE="dave123321"] You should get a sig and avatar. Or just an avatar

Yeah, I had one until... yesterday, I think? Gamespot goofed, it seems. Haven't bothered to replace it yet.

GS changed the rules of where you can host images for avatars and such. http://www.gamespot.com/features/offsite-image-hosting-rules-are-changing-what-you-need-to-know-6402780/

Ah, thanks.
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#79 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -
midterm in what?
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#80 Posted by Fightingfan (38011 posts) -
Teacher vs athlete salaries seems to be a good next topicdave123321
You can't blame anyone beside society for that one. We value entertainment over education.
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#81 Posted by coolbeans90 (21305 posts) -

midterm in what?dave123321

intermediate dynamics

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#82 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -
[QUOTE="dave123321"]Teacher vs athlete salaries seems to be a good next topicFightingfan
You can't blame anyone beside society for that one. We value entertainment over education.

You can discuss that aspect in the new thread tomorrow
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#83 Posted by Jacobistheman (3975 posts) -

People need to do a little research before making arguments about minimum wage

Here are the facts:

  • People are more likely to be working for something below minimum wage than at it. 
  • People working Part Time are 5 times more likely to be at or below minimum wage (and this does not include full time salaried people)
  • Teenagers make up 25% of the people making at or below minimum wage, but only make up 5% of the labor force
  • People under 24 make up over half of minimum wage earners, but are only 20% of the labor force. 

 

We need to figure out a way to actually enfore the law before trying to increase minimum wage, because increasing it will just push more people into the "below minimum wage " category.

Also, it is likely that increases in minimum wage will cause many part time workers to get fewer hours and make it harder for teens and early 20s people who have no marketable skills to get jobs to develop those marketable skills (groups wich have 25% and 13% respecivly, which is well above average)

 

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011tbls.htm

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#84 Posted by mattbbpl (13912 posts) -
[QUOTE="dave123321"]Teacher vs athlete salaries seems to be a good next topicFightingfan
You can't blame anyone beside society for that one. We value entertainment over education.

More of an economies of scale type of thing. Athletes produce a product that is consumed by millions of fans. Teachers produce a product that is consumed by a few hundred or few thousand students. Most people pay more for those educations in a given year, but the number of people consuming them vs the number of those producing them is smaller.
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#85 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -

[QUOTE="dave123321"]midterm in what?coolbeans90

intermediate dynamics

ah. Good luck. Looks tough.
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#86 Posted by lo_Pine (4978 posts) -
The argument is that it raises the unemployment rate because more people supply their labor than firms demand from them. There are people who would be willing to work at a wage lower than the minimum and those people don't get a job if there are minimum wage laws. In other words, it raises the equilibrium price of labor in the job market. Although, the only people really affected by the minimum wage are teenagers and low skilled workers who make up a small percent of the labor force. So in reality the minimum wage doesn't affect unemployment very much.
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#87 Posted by jeremiah06 (7172 posts) -
So... say I make $3 over min wage... if it goes up to $12 will my pay go up to $15?
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#88 Posted by Guybrush_3 (8308 posts) -

[QUOTE="limpbizkit818"][QUOTE="Aljosa23"]

The arguments against minimum wage are mostly retarded and seem to ignore that even though cost of living and food have risen, the minimum wage has remained stagnant.

Pirate700

One should not expect the minimum wage to support a family with shelter and food. It was never intended to do so. 5% of current hourly-paid workers make $7.25 or less. I'm pretty sure a large percentage of that 5% are teenagers.........

Right but you should should still get paid fairly for the amount of work you do. A large pecentage of minimum wages jobs are some of the hardest working.

The hardest work I've ever done was actually for less than minimum wage, but I'm not complaining about that because I was not doing that job to make money.

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#89 Posted by coolbeans90 (21305 posts) -

[QUOTE="coolbeans90"]

[QUOTE="dave123321"]midterm in what?dave123321

intermediate dynamics

ah. Good luck. Looks tough.

def my hardest course this semester

should be okay tho

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#90 Posted by dave123321 (35260 posts) -

[QUOTE="dave123321"]Hello guys. So been hearing a lot about minimum wage lately. About increasing/decreasing/deleting, and it got me to wondering what this whole debate is about. So OT can have a nice and civil debate about the economic consequences of the minimum wage and how changing it will effect different groups(different workers and employers). So questions to think about: What is minimum wage? How does it effect a company's choices in terms of employing people? What is supply and demand all about? Benfits of minimum wage? Cons? How does this affect average wage? Hopefully our budding OTconimists can figure this out for us. comp_atkins

   you new here?

I was making a new thread and then it dawned on me why you might have asked this(realized that you must have bolded the civil debate part). Mentioning for no real reason
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#91 Posted by lo_Pine (4978 posts) -
So... say I make $3 over min wage... if it goes up to $12 will my pay go up to $15?jeremiah06
Probably not, unless you are in a union or they pay everyone who works for them over $3 minimum wage.
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#92 Posted by BeardMaster (1686 posts) -

[QUOTE="jeremiah06"]So... say I make $3 over min wage... if it goes up to $12 will my pay go up to $15?lo_Pine
Probably not, unless you are in a union or they pay everyone who works for them over $3 minimum wage.

 

his wage will go up, though it might not go up by 3 bucks.

 

If his company is trying to employ higher quality workers by offering wages above the minimum wage... then they will continue to do so when the minimum wage is increased.

 

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#93 Posted by -Renegade (8340 posts) -

So... say I make $3 over min wage... if it goes up to $12 will my pay go up to $15?jeremiah06

no.

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#94 Posted by BeardMaster (1686 posts) -

People need to do a little research before making arguments about minimum wage

Here are the facts:

  • People are more likely to be working for something below minimum wage than at it. 
  • People working Part Time are 5 times more likely to be at or below minimum wage (and this does not include full time salaried people)
  • Teenagers make up 25% of the people making at or below minimum wage, but only make up 5% of the labor force
  • People under 24 make up over half of minimum wage earners, but are only 20% of the labor force. 

 

We need to figure out a way to actually enfore the law before trying to increase minimum wage, because increasing it will just push more people into the "below minimum wage " category.

Also, it is likely that increases in minimum wage will cause many part time workers to get fewer hours and make it harder for teens and early 20s people who have no marketable skills to get jobs to develop those marketable skills (groups wich have 25% and 13% respecivly, which is well above average)

 

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011tbls.htm

Jacobistheman

 

wait how are people working at below the minimum wage? assuming they are legal citizens working for a legal business?

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#95 Posted by BeardMaster (1686 posts) -

The argument is that it raises the unemployment rate because more people supply their labor than firms demand from them. There are people who would be willing to work at a wage lower than the minimum and those people don't get a job if there are minimum wage laws. In other words, it raises the equilibrium price of labor in the job market. Although, the only people really affected by the minimum wage are teenagers and low skilled workers who make up a small percent of the labor force. So in reality the minimum wage doesn't affect unemployment very much.lo_Pine

 

the argument that it raises unemployment is a false argument. As it assumes well managed businesses hire "luxury employees" aka employees they dont need, but just hire because they can afford to.

 

In reality every business hires the minimum amount of employees possible. If you raise the minimum wage... they will still require the same number of employees to service demand, they will just have to pay some of their employees more.

 

During the bottom of the recession there may have been a valid argument that fragile companies on the verge of bankruptcies could be be pushed past the breaking point and forced out of business. But now that GDP is no longer shrinking, and is growing... that argument is not valid.

 

The reality is, that a higher minimum wage would simply put more money in the hands of the consumer, thus increasing demand... which would lead to more hiring and lower unemployment.

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#96 Posted by Jacobistheman (3975 posts) -

[QUOTE="Jacobistheman"]

People need to do a little research before making arguments about minimum wage

Here are the facts:

  • People are more likely to be working for something below minimum wage than at it. 
  • People working Part Time are 5 times more likely to be at or below minimum wage (and this does not include full time salaried people)
  • Teenagers make up 25% of the people making at or below minimum wage, but only make up 5% of the labor force
  • People under 24 make up over half of minimum wage earners, but are only 20% of the labor force. 

 

We need to figure out a way to actually enfore the law before trying to increase minimum wage, because increasing it will just push more people into the "below minimum wage " category.

Also, it is likely that increases in minimum wage will cause many part time workers to get fewer hours and make it harder for teens and early 20s people who have no marketable skills to get jobs to develop those marketable skills (groups wich have 25% and 13% respecivly, which is well above average)

 

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011tbls.htm

BeardMaster

 

wait how are people working at below the minimum wage? assuming they are legal citizens working for a legal business?

There is something illegal going on. hence the "We need to figure out a way to actually enforce the law" Also, there are some exemptions from the regular minimum wage for some agricultural jobs, and a lower minimum wage for people paid by tips (but employers are required to pay up to minimum wage if someone doesn't get enough tips)
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#97 Posted by Shmiity (6070 posts) -

Man, this is such a tough question. I think my opinion is this: Having a minimum wage is not inherently bad... we need some sort of standard of fairness so employers dont abuse workers. Also, with the rising costs of living, it should keep raising.

But I also dont disagree with the fact that the more you pay people, the less people you hire.. we also can't devalue the hell out of the dollar by giving everyone 20$/hr jobs. Maybe we're at a time in the USA where it does need to increase. In MA its 8.00$. You can barely support yourself on that amount of money, in the most frugal of living conditions. It's pretty close to impossible. 

Ive seen some people argue that "Youre not supposed to support a family on minimum wage". Then why is minimum wage even a thing, if it's useless? That doesn't make sense. We all know that some people just do not have the opportunity for better pay. If youre stuck in food service, what do you do?

 

Its a mess.

Avatar image for BeardMaster
#98 Posted by BeardMaster (1686 posts) -

[QUOTE="BeardMaster"]

[QUOTE="Jacobistheman"]

People need to do a little research before making arguments about minimum wage

Here are the facts:

  • People are more likely to be working for something below minimum wage than at it. 
  • People working Part Time are 5 times more likely to be at or below minimum wage (and this does not include full time salaried people)
  • Teenagers make up 25% of the people making at or below minimum wage, but only make up 5% of the labor force
  • People under 24 make up over half of minimum wage earners, but are only 20% of the labor force. 

 

We need to figure out a way to actually enfore the law before trying to increase minimum wage, because increasing it will just push more people into the "below minimum wage " category.

Also, it is likely that increases in minimum wage will cause many part time workers to get fewer hours and make it harder for teens and early 20s people who have no marketable skills to get jobs to develop those marketable skills (groups wich have 25% and 13% respecivly, which is well above average)

 

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2011tbls.htm

Jacobistheman

 

wait how are people working at below the minimum wage? assuming they are legal citizens working for a legal business?

There is something illegal going on. hence the "We need to figure out a way to actually enforce the law" Also, there are some exemptions from the regular minimum wage for some agricultural jobs, and a lower minimum wage for people paid by tips (but employers are required to pay up to minimum wage if someone doesn't get enough tips)

 

Well thats a red herring and a piss poor argument.

 

Thats like saying we shouldnt make bath salts illegal, until we can better enforce existing drug laws and wipe out the current crop of drugs deemed illegal.

 

Black markets always exist, should we have better enforcement? probably. But that doesnt mean we shouldnt address legal businesses in the meantime.

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#99 Posted by October_Tide (5396 posts) -

[QUOTE="dave123321"]About increasing/decreasing/deletingJML897
wtf are there seriously people who want to get rid of minimum wage :|

Some people argue that the free market will do a better job of maintaining wage levels. They are of course clinically insane.

Mind you I haven't taken economics in a while.

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#100 Posted by BeardMaster (1686 posts) -

Man, this is such a tough question. I think my opinion is this: Having a minimum wage is not inherently bad... we need some sort of standard of fairness so employers dont abuse workers. Also, with the rising costs of living, it should keep raising.

But I also dont disagree with the fact that the more you pay people, the less people you hire.. we also can't devalue the hell out of the dollar by giving everyone 20$/hr jobs. Maybe we're at a time in the USA where it does need to increase. In MA its 8.00$. You can barely support yourself on that amount of money, in the most frugal of living conditions. It's pretty close to impossible. 

Ive seen some people argue that "Youre not supposed to support a family on minimum wage". Then why is minimum wage even a thing, if it's useless? That doesn't make sense. We all know that some people just do not have the opportunity for better pay. If youre stuck in food service, what do you do?

 

Its a mess.

Shmiity

 

You should disagree with the fact that the more you pay people... the less you hire.

 

If you own a muffin shop, and your customers want to buy 500 muffins a day and a baker can produce 100 muffins a day, how many bakers will you hire?

 

how many bakers will you hire if the minimum wage is $1? how many bakers will you hire if the minimum wage is $15? You will hire 5 bakers regardless.