Do you beleive in god OT ?

Boobs definitely being the exception, one of my main evidences for there being no God (no designer) is how imperfect life really is. That it can be so flawed yet still works is proof to me that there's no divinity behind it. How can divine be imperfect?

Muslims also believe that he didn't die from his crucifixion.

"flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 15:50)

It is impossible for a physical body to rise from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44New International Version (NIV)

⁴² So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; ⁴³ it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; ⁴⁴ it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

<sup>Acts 22: 6-11


6</sup> “As I was on my way and drew near to Damascus, about noon a great light from heaven suddenly shone around me. ⁷ And I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?’ ⁸ And I answered, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ And he said to me, ‘I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting.’ ⁹ Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand^[c] the voice of the one who was speaking to me. ¹⁰ And I said, ‘What shall I do, Lord?’ And the Lord said to me, ‘Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do.’ ¹¹ And since I could not see because of the brightness of that light, I was led by the hand by those who were with me, and came into Damascus.

Jesus appears as a bright light, how could a body just simply appear and produce a bright light?

John 20:11-18New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene

¹¹ Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb ¹² and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.

¹³ They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”

“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” ¹⁴ At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

¹⁵ He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”

Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”

¹⁶ Jesus said to her, “Mary.”

She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).

¹⁷ Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

¹⁸ Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Why did Mary not recognize Jesus if it was his physical body?

So they rose up that very hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, saying, “The Lord is risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!” And they told about the things that had happened on the road, and how He was known to them in the breaking of bread. Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, “Peace to you.” But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. (Luke 24:33–37,

If Jesus had a physical body why would they assume they had seen a spirit?

Matthew 28:16-17New International Version (NIV)

The Great Commission

¹⁶ Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. ¹⁷ When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.

Why would they doubt if they had seen Jesus, unless it looked different?

If Jesus was a physical Body, how could he simply appear and disappear at will, from large distances, without anyone traveling with him?

@Nuck81@br0kenrabbit: Also, in the original version of Matthew, the crucifixion story ends at the tomb being sealed.

A problem I have with the existence of god is the concept of free will. If god really is all knowing, then how can anybody have free will? For example, let's say that I'm going to have eggs with bacon for breakfast tomorrow. I don't know this yet, I haven't decided what I'm going to eat, but god does know. So if god knows i'm going to have eggs with bacon for breakfast tomorrow before I do, then I have no choice but to have eggs with bacon for breakfast tomorrow. I only think I have a choice, but it has already been decided, otherwise it's logically impossible for god or any being to be all knowing. So either god exists and what we know as free will is just an illusion, or he doesn't and we do have free will.

Does anyone disagree with my conclusion?

Yes a lot.. Yes yes.

@deeliman: Even worse. If you take that concept further that means whether you please God or not (and consequentially whether you go to Heaven or Hell when you die) is already decided before you even do anything, which means God might have made you with the purpose of you burning in hell. Enjoy! XD

Yeah. Let's say I know you like eggs for breakfast. If you pick eggs that doesn't mean I decided you would eat eggs. It means I know you do because it's what you like. You still had the choice though.

If Jesus was a physical body how could he walk on water?

How could he raise the dead? (you can't say it's impossible for a body to raise from the dead, that's one of Jesus' "miracles")

How could he turn water into wine?

You're being incredibly selective with your skepticism.

How could he appear as a bright light? We're talking about the transfiguration of Christ.

The fact of the matter is that the bodily resurrection of Jesus is integral to Christian theology. Paul is very clear about this.

As for Muslims, they don't believe that Jesus was crucified at all. According to Muslim's he never died in the first place but instead God raised his body to heaven while still alive.

@LJS9502_basic That's not a very good comparison. You can guess that, because I like bacon with eggs, that that's what I'm going to have for breakfast, but you can't be certain. God is supposedly all knowing, so he is certain.

He still didn't make the choice for you.

@thegerg It kind of does. If an entity knows that what I'm going to have for breakfast before I do, that means that my "choice" is already set in stone, meaning that, ultimately, I can only choose eggs with bacon for breakfast, and nothing else, otherwise it's logically impossible for an entity to know for certain what I'm having for breakfast before I do.

That is true, but a lot of people believe that everything that happens, happens according to God's will/plan. In that case you would not be the one making the choice, you'd be the one acting on the choice that was made for you.

@LJS9502_basic He doesn't have to, if god knows what I'm having for breakfast before I do that means that I only have 1 option, therefore it's not really my choice.

Well, not quite...otherwise you'd have to say all events in History were set in stone before they happened, just because we have the knowledge of them. God might have the ability to see the future, but that's unrelated to you making your choice. The ability to see the future is a sketchy topic at best, and I get all confused thinking about it XD

Yeah free will is pretty bogus when coupled with an omniscience God (I'd argue it's pretty even without there being any god - what if I don't want to like bacon with eggs? I'm not at the liberty to simply "will" my dislike, we're all slaves to our wants and desires and we have very little say in what those actually are).

Many christians embrace the contradiction though, like Calvinists. They may but nutty but they are consistent.

@thegerg For an all knowing entity to know what I will choose, my choice would have to be set in stone, otherwise it's logically not possible for him to know.

But it is your choice. Someone knowing your choice doesn't make it less so. YOU decided.

@LJS9502_basic If he knows what I'm going to choose, then it necessarily follows that I am compelled to act as god knew beforehand I would, otherwise god's foreknowledge would be imperfect. Divine foreknowledge and free will seem to be incompatible, so either you should agree with my conclusion, or you have to show that my alleged relation between foreknowledge and free will is false.

@thegerg "If he knows what I'm going to choose, then it necessarily follows that I am compelled to act as god knew beforehand I would, otherwise god's foreknowledge would be imperfect. Divine foreknowledge and FREE will seem to be incompatible, so either you should agree with my conclusion, or you have to show that my alleged relation between foreknowledge and free will is false."

I'm going to ask you the same question, to show me that my alleged relation between foreknowledge and free will is false.

Ok, how about this. Imagine you read a History book and learn everything there is to know about a certain series of events. Now you travel to the past to that period and are now living in the same period as those people. Are you now actively preventing their free will because you know what they are about to do?

@korvus The problem what that scenario is that it is physically impossible to travel to the past. I could elaborate on this, but I don't want to go to far off topic. You can find a lot of information on the internet why it is impossible if you really are interested.

@deeliman: That wasn't really the point...you aren't God. If God is omnipotent then he can do anything. He can also exist everywhere and "everywhen" =P at the same time. Going by that principle, would you still think he would be limiting your free will?

@korvus My whole argument has been that an all knowing god limits free will, so i'm not sure what you're getting at here :P

@deeliman: You're being dense on purpose, I think XD Ok, one more try...forget the impossibility of travelling back in time. Imagine you COULD, would you be limiting people's free will because you knew what they were going to do? If not, how would that be different from the omnipotent God knowing what you are about to do?

No it doesn't follow. Knowing what someone will do does not mean one created that path. And my analogy was actually accurate. If I know exactly what you will choose to eat then I knew what choice you would make. I did not make the choice for you. It's basically the same thing. It's just not convenient to your argument.

@korvus I looked it up, and the scenario you bring forward is called the Principle of Necessity of the Past , which basically says that the past is fixed (we have no power today to change or to affect what happened yesterday in any way), and in this sense the past is "now-necessary", where "now-necessary" designates temporal necessity, the type of necessity that the past is supposed to have just because it is past.

@deeliman: You keep taking this conversation in a completely different path no matter how I construct the question. I have no idea what to do with you =P You seem like a smart guy...I can't imagine you do not understand the point I am trying to make.

@LJS9502_basic I never made the point that god would have created the path, simply that if he knows what I would do beforehand that it logically follows that I am compelled to do so. And you're right, the same problem arises if anyone would have foreknowledge about anything I do in the future.

@korvus I told someone else that if anyone had foreknowledge of what I would do, it would arise the same problem as with an all knowing god, including your traveling to the past scenario, if that was the answer you were waiting for.

Logically? You are not compelled. You are confusing knowledge with force.

@deeliman: Ok, I don't agree but at least I got your view of things. Thank you =D

I'm agnostic so basically while I don't completely throw out the possibility there is some higher form/energy/power/whatever, my general thoughts on 'god' is in line with what Einstein has said on the subject.

@LJS9502_basic I apologize for constructing that sentence rather poorly, *necessarily follows* would probably be a better choice of words. Am I not compelled to act as god knew beforehand I would?

@korvus Then I guess we will agree to disagree. Sorry it took a while :P

@deeliman: Yeah, no worries. I don't believe in God to begin with...it was just a discussion for discussion sake. For what it's worth I see your point...if someone knows you're going to do something then how can you do anything else? You can't, but that doesn't take the decision away from you since the knowledge would come from a time when your decision had already been made (by you). You can't change your path but that doesn't mean someone else other than yourself chose the path for you =)

You're looking at this backwards. You're not compelled to do anything....it's just your choice is known. But in the end it's still your choice. And of course this discussion varies by the definition one is using of omniscience as well.

There is no such thing as free will. Look up "Sam Harris Free Will." He is a neuroscientist that explains it perfectly. Nobody has come up with an objection that I am aware of. Check it out. Also there is no reason to believe in god.

you're that dude from office space!

My decisions are made as a result of my experiences and my experiences come from being an inhabitant of this universe which runs in the manner which god specified. The all powerful creator of existence would know the future outcome of all actions / decisions, know precisely the position AND momentum ( he's god, no? ) of all matter in the universe, and have SET IT UP that way. If you're arguing that god is all knowing but not that creator of the universe, then sure, the choice may be yours. If you're attributing to him infinite knowledge of the future outcome of the universe and the ability to set the initial state, then the choice is not yours, despite how you may feel when making it.

Not necessarily...I can build a house and let a family move there...just because I built the house it doesn't mean I control everything people do in it. The ability to "set the stage", as you put it, doesn't mean God controls all your actions, only that he would have the power to do so if he wished.

Well put....

If I'm any of them, I'm definitely Ron Livingston's character.

Humans are the stage in this case, not actors on it. We're made of the same material as the rest of the universe and that material follows all the same laws.

@comp_atkins: That is way too mystical for me =P

I believe in God. Cheers!

No, but I do believe in the heart of the cards.