Christians that hate and judge h0mosexuals are hypocrites....

I often here from some Christians (certianly not all) that homosexuality is a sin and a death sentence to hell, and I wonder if these people have actually read The Bible to begin with.

Now to be fair I am a Jew so I may not have the best understanding of Christian theology, but I read The Bible (I find it important to learn about different faiths) and I can safely say that Christians (again some) have missed the point completely or never read it in the first place.

Jesus said "He who is without sin cast the first stone", guess what? That means that you are not allowed to judge homosexuals if you are a Christian. Jesus also said to love your neighbor as you love yourself, and that all men are God's children.

That also includes homosexuals. Also The Bible does not talk about same sex marriage, not once. It seems to be a non issue and Jesus seemed to be more concerned with heterosexual couples and what they do and not homosexuals.

The message of The Bible is to love God and to love others. Why do (some) people that call themselves Christians misunderstand this?

Btw I full agree with the topic title, and yes I am christian.

... Also The Bible does not talk about same sex marriage, not once. It seems to be a non issue and Jesus seemed to be more concerned with heterosexual couples and what they do and not homosexuals...ShadowMoses900

The bible got one of the most fundamental aspects of human morality incorrect - slavery. It "allows" and considers it acceptable under some conditions. Slavery is something that is universally deemed as immoral under nearly any civilized society.

If the bible couldn't even get something so basic and important correctly, why does anyone think that it would have also been correct about something as complex as human sexuality?

This isn't an issue of "Dont judge homosexuals even if you think they are wrong." Its about the more fundamental "you have no basis on which to deem homosexual as wrong." The bible isnt a reference for that.

....people in OT seem to forget the OT

The old testament also says that any man who sleeps with another man should be put death (its phrased something like any man that sleeps with man kind). And peter calls homosexuality an abomination and sin because in his time romans practiced a lot of man on man sex. Diablo-B

The Torah (what you call the Old Testament) doesn't say they should be put to death per se, just that a man who sleeps with another man will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In ancient Jewish culture (Israelites) survival was the utmost importance and so was reproduction, so it was seen by the tribe as a selfish act to not take a wife and give her a child. The romans were a pagan culture, so of course Peter hated them and their practices. The romans treated the Jews like dirt.

Also I want to make it clear that one can disagree with the homosexual lifestyle without being a bigot. That is a common misconception that some liberals make.

....people in OT seem to forget the OT

BossPerson

The bible got one of the most fundamental aspects of human morality incorrect - slavery. It "allows" and considers it acceptable under some conditions. Slavery is something that is universally deemed as immoral under nearly any civilized society.

If the bible couldn't even get something so basic and important correctly, why does anyone think that it would have also been correct about something as complex as human sexuality?

This isn't an issue of "Dont judge homosexuals even if you think they are wrong." Its about the more fundamental "you have no basis on which to deem homosexual as wrong." The bible isnt a reference for that.

XaosII

....people in OT seem to forget the OT

BossPerson

Also I want to make it clear that one can disagree with the homosexual lifestyle without being a bigot. That is a common misconception that some liberals make.

ShadowMoses900

There does not exist a single, non-religious reason to disapprove of homosexuality.

Its rather difficult to not come up with a non-bigoted reason since it stems from an intolerant creed.

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

....people in OT seem to forget the OT

Nuck81

[QUOTE="BossPerson"]

....people in OT seem to forget the OT

Nuck81

then they immediately refer to the ten commandments....which are in the OT

The bible got one of the most fundamental aspects of human morality incorrect - slavery. It "allows" and considers it acceptable under some conditions. Slavery is something that is universally deemed as immoral under nearly any civilized society.

If the bible couldn't even get something so basic and important correctly, why does anyone think that it would have also been correct about something as complex as human sexuality?

This isn't an issue of "Dont judge homosexuals even if you think they are wrong." Its about the more fundamental "you have no basis on which to deem homosexual as wrong." The bible isnt a reference for that.

XaosII

The anceint Jews did not have slaves in the sense you think. They did have servents per se and they could be seen as slaves in the modern sense, but at the time it was vastly different among the Israelites (and Jews are against slavery as we were slaves to egyptians according to Exodus, and slaves to other cultures as well throuout the ages).

In Israelite culture, you could not physically harm a slave, if you did they were set free. And they were only slaves because of debt, and it was temporary, never permanent. You were also responsible for the slaves health and well being, and that of his family as well. Compared to other cultures at the tme, the Israelites were far more humane.'

The Bible does have contradictions, but so do other important texts. It depends on how you interpet it and being aware of the time period. However the core message is fundamental and I believe The Bible (and it's variations like Torah, Quran) are important for society. But they should not be given the power to govern, but they shouldn't be silenced either.

[QUOTE="Diablo-B"]The old testament also says that any man who sleeps with another man should be put death (its phrased something like any man that sleeps with man kind). And peter calls homosexuality an abomination and sin because in his time romans practiced a lot of man on man sex. ShadowMoses900

The Torah (what you call the Old Testament) doesn't say they should be put to death per se, just that a man who sleeps with another man will not inherit the kingdom of God.

In ancient Jewish culture (Israelites) survival was the utmost importance and so was reproduction, so it was seen by the tribe as a selfish act to not take a wife and give her a child. The romans were a pagan culture, so of course Peter hated them and their practices. The romans treated the Jews like dirt.

Also I want to make it clear that one can disagree with the homosexual lifestyle without being a bigot. That is a common misconception that some liberals make.

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

Also I want to make it clear that one can disagree with the homosexual lifestyle without being a bigot. That is a common misconception that some liberals make.

XaosII

There does not exist a single, non-religious reason to disapprove of homosexuality.

Its rather difficult to not come up with a non-bigoted reason since it stems from an intolerant creed.

I disagree with the lifestyle, but my religious views are only an aspect of it. I disagree with it because anal sex is not healthy and quite risky, it can cause all kinds of issues, and I believe it's more "natural" for a man and woman. It just makes more sense to me.

However I support g@y rights and don't care if they get married. It's about love and tolerance.

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

Also I want to make it clear that one can disagree with the homosexual lifestyle without being a bigot. That is a common misconception that some liberals make.

ShadowMoses900

There does not exist a single, non-religious reason to disapprove of homosexuality.

Its rather difficult to not come up with a non-bigoted reason since it stems from an intolerant creed.

I disagree with the lifestyle, but my religious views are only an aspect of it. I disagree with it because anal sex is not healthy and quite risky, it can cause all kinds of issues, and I believe it's more "natural" for a man and woman. It just makes more sense to me.

However I support g@y rights and don't care if they get married. It's about love and tolerance.

implying they all partake in this specific act :|

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

The bible got one of the most fundamental aspects of human morality incorrect - slavery. It "allows" and considers it acceptable under some conditions. Slavery is something that is universally deemed as immoral under nearly any civilized society.

If the bible couldn't even get something so basic and important correctly, why does anyone think that it would have also been correct about something as complex as human sexuality?

This isn't an issue of "Dont judge homosexuals even if you think they are wrong." Its about the more fundamental "you have no basis on which to deem homosexual as wrong." The bible isnt a reference for that.

ShadowMoses900

The anceint Jews did not have slaves in the sense you think. They did have servents per se and they could be seen as slaves in the modern sense, but at the time it was vastly different among the Israelites (and Jews are against slavery as we were slaves to egyptians according to Exodus, and slaves to other cultures as well throuout the ages).

In Israelite culture, you could not physically harm a slave, if you did they were set free. And they were only slaves because of debt, and it was temporary, never permanent. You were also responsible for the slaves health and well being, and that of his family as well. Compared to other cultures at the tme, the Israelites were far more humane.'

The Bible does have contradictions, but so do other important texts. It depends on how you interpet it and being aware of the time period. However the core message is fundamental and I believe The Bible (and it's variations like Torah, Quran) are important for society. But they should not be given the power to govern, but they shouldn't be silenced either.

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="XaosII"]

There does not exist a single, non-religious reason to disapprove of homosexuality.

Its rather difficult to not come up with a non-bigoted reason since it stems from an intolerant creed.

wis3boi

I disagree with the lifestyle, but my religious views are only an aspect of it. I disagree with it because anal sex is not healthy and quite risky, it can cause all kinds of issues, and I believe it's more "natural" for a man and woman. It just makes more sense to me.

However I support g@y rights and don't care if they get married. It's about love and tolerance.

implying they all partake in this specific act :|

I think it's pretty accurate to say that the vast majority of gay men have anal sex, most straight couples do not.

most straight couples do not.ShadowMoses900

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]most straight couples do not.Nuck81

[QUOTE="Nuck81"][QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]most straight couples do not.themajormayor

@ShadowMoses900, are you by any chance a Reform Jew? th3warr1or

That is the sect I am most familiar with, yes. But my local synagouge is in the process of becoming Reconstructionist, which I am not so familiar with. The only other synagouges here are an Orthodox one and a Messianic one.

The Bible said a lot of things that we would not agree with today, not even your typical normal Christian. You also have to take in consideration of what those words meant back then because, as I'm aware, words back then compared to today had differing definitions and meanings.

This goes for any religious text out there too. But hey, there is one thing I do agree with those religious rightwingers and it's that we should return to traditional marriage...

[spoiler] ...back to the 1700s when marriage was just a social status and you were allowed to go on wild escapades. :P [/spoiler]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

I disagree with the lifestyle, but my religious views are only an aspect of it. I disagree with it because anal sex is not healthy and quite risky, it can cause all kinds of issues, and I believe it's more "natural" for a man and woman. It just makes more sense to me.

However I support g@y rights and don't care if they get married. It's about love and tolerance.

ShadowMoses900

implying they all partake in this specific act :|

I think it's pretty accurate to say that the vast majority of gay men have anal sex, most straight couples do not.

Catholics, not christians.

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

implying they all partake in this specific act :|

Serraph105

I think it's pretty accurate to say that the vast majority of gay men have anal sex, most straight couples do not.

What about them? That's their business. I'm not against people doing it, if that's what they personally want then so be it. It's not my business to judge what others do behind closed doors as long as they are consenting adults. I don't care.

Still doesn't mean I have to personally agree with the act. It's kind of like my view on smoking. I don't believe in it, I think it's unhealthy, but if someone wants to do it that's their business and by no means does it make them bad people.

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

I disagree with the lifestyle, but my religious views are only an aspect of it. I disagree with it because anal sex is not healthy and quite risky, it can cause all kinds of issues, and I believe it's more "natural" for a man and woman. It just makes more sense to me.

However I support g@y rights and don't care if they get married. It's about love and tolerance.

ShadowMoses900

implying they all partake in this specific act :|

I think it's pretty accurate to say that the vast majority of gay men have anal sex, most straight couples do not.

[citation needed]

The anceint Jews did not have slaves in the sense you think. They did have servents per se and they could be seen as slaves in the modern sense, but at the time it was vastly different among the Israelites (and Jews are against slavery as we were slaves to egyptians according to Exodus, and slaves to other cultures as well throuout the ages).

In Israelite culture, you could not physically harm a slave, if you did they were set free. And they were only slaves because of debt, and it was temporary, never permanent. You were also responsible for the slaves health and well being, and that of his family as well. Compared to other cultures at the tme, the Israelites were far more humane.'

The Bible does have contradictions, but so do other important texts. It depends on how you interpet it and being aware of the time period. However the core message is fundamental and I believe The Bible (and it's variations like Torah, Quran) are important for society. But they should not be given the power to govern, but they shouldn't be silenced either.

ShadowMoses900

Yeah... Everything you mentioned has absolutely no impact on what i've said.

The bible got slavery wrong; what makes you think it got homosexuality right? "Because other books have contradictions" isn't an answer. Its a poor excuse to justify why your own book is allowed to be wrong - never even mind why you think it should be taken as truth.

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

implying they all partake in this specific act :|

wis3boi

I think it's pretty accurate to say that the vast majority of gay men have anal sex, most straight couples do not.

[citation needed]

I have never went out with a woman that wanted it. I went out with one that did it before, she told me it was painful. I don't want to try it.

I doubt most straight couples engage in that practice, if they do that's their business, but the anus is not designed for penetration.

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

implying they all partake in this specific act :|

wis3boi

I think it's pretty accurate to say that the vast majority of gay men have anal sex, most straight couples do not.

[citation needed]

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

The anceint Jews did not have slaves in the sense you think. They did have servents per se and they could be seen as slaves in the modern sense, but at the time it was vastly different among the Israelites (and Jews are against slavery as we were slaves to egyptians according to Exodus, and slaves to other cultures as well throuout the ages).

In Israelite culture, you could not physically harm a slave, if you did they were set free. And they were only slaves because of debt, and it was temporary, never permanent. You were also responsible for the slaves health and well being, and that of his family as well. Compared to other cultures at the tme, the Israelites were far more humane.'

The Bible does have contradictions, but so do other important texts. It depends on how you interpet it and being aware of the time period. However the core message is fundamental and I believe The Bible (and it's variations like Torah, Quran) are important for society. But they should not be given the power to govern, but they shouldn't be silenced either.

XaosII

Yeah... Everything you mentioned has absolutely no impact on what i've said.

The bible got slavery wrong; what makes you think it got homosexuality right? "Because other books have contradictions" isn't an answer. Its a poor excuse to justify why your own book is allowed to be wrong - never even mind why you think it should be taken as truth.

I never said it was right, just that it's important to understand the context and the time, which was my point.

When religious people hate so hard on gays I'm convinced it's to suppress their feelings. What single reason is there to adamantly hate on gay people? If they are gay they go to hell, how does this affect you? Just because they get married doesn't mean you for some reason are going to go to hell now too.

Paul does condemn lesbianism specifically, and the OT is very clear on how it feels about gay people. Why would a religious Jew not be against gays? Leviticus doesn't exactly mince words on the subject.Rhazakna

The only Jews I know that hate gays are the Orthodox, but they hate just about everything, including other Jews that are not Orthodox. Most Jews stand up for gays because we know what it's like to be a minority and hated.

Yeah... Everything you mentioned has absolutely no impact on what i've said.

The bible got slavery wrong; what makes you think it got homosexuality right? "Because other books have contradictions" isn't an answer. Its a poor excuse to justify why your own book is allowed to be wrong - never even mind why you think it should be taken as truth.

XaosII

In your opinion, the Bible got slavery wrong. That the bible allows slavery being wrong is an opinion, not fact. You say every "civilized society" considers slavery immoral, and yet every civilized society had slaves at some point in time, some being as recent as 2 centuries back.

So you want the Bible to rule on something, and pass a law that NOBODY would keep, because 3000 years later slavery is going to be "immoral?"

No. Slavery is not immoral. To YOU, slavery is immoral. To MODERN society, slavery is immoral.

You also said that nothing he mentioned has any impact on what you said? Well it does, because it's an extremely regulated form of slavery that cannot even be considered the same form of servitude as American slavery. Were Americans required by law to FREE their slaves after 7 years?

When is slavery implemented? I bet you think the Israelites just sailed to Africa and shipped off people by the hundreds to sell.

1) If he stole and does not have the means to reimburse the victim. In this case the thief is sold by the courts and the money goes to pay for the stolen items.

2) A person is also allowed to sell himself as a slave if he is poverty-stricken and desperate.

I see absolutely nothing immoral about that. In both the above instances, the slave goes FREE after 7 years.

You don't walk up to a random dude and then kidnap him and sell him as a slave or make him your slave.

"One who kidnaps a man and sells him, and he was found in his possession, he shall surely be put to death." - Exodus 21:16

[QUOTE="themajormayor"][QUOTE="Nuck81"] 30-40 years ago oral sex was considered Taboo.Diablo-B

That sounds even worse. That's just filthy.

I disagree with the lifestyle, but my religious views are only an aspect of it. I disagree with it because anal sex is not healthy and quite risky, it can cause all kinds of issues, and I believe it's more "natural" for a man and woman. It just makes more sense to me.

However I support g@y rights and don't care if they get married. It's about love and tolerance.

ShadowMoses900

Eating fatty foods is not healthy and quite risky; it can cause all kinds of issues. Yet, i dont exactly see books preaching about how they should be second class citizens and not deserving of the same posthumous rewards as another person.

And don't even get me started on the "natural" argument. Polyester and plastics, as synthetically manufactured materials, aren't natural either. No one seems to mind.

[QUOTE="wis3boi"]

[QUOTE="ShadowMoses900"]

I think it's pretty accurate to say that the vast majority of gay men have anal sex, most straight couples do not.

ShadowMoses900

[citation needed]

I have never went out with a woman that wanted it. I went out with one that did it before, she told me it was painful. I don't want to try it.

I doubt most straight couples engage in that practice, if they do that's their business, but the anus is not designed for penetration.

Neither is the mouth and neither is your hand :P