@mrbojangles25: This is on the level of that old Sideshow Bob gag: "What even is attempted murder? Do they give a nobel prize for attempted chemistry?"
@sargentd: Lol. "Don Corleone can't be convicted, guys. He was never at the scene of the crime, he merely orchestrated it from afar!"
Yeah, this is disappointing. @sargentd might argue points I find revolting but is generally a bit better at debate than this.
This stance he has taken though is just kind of sad and pathetic.
Know when you're beat, and move on.
Show me then. Show me the crime he "organized". Show me some actual evidence of crime that prove he organized an actual crime. A crime worth 22 years in prison. As far as I'm concerned, he's being made an example of by the FED. I've seen nothing worth 22 years in prison. Actual rapists and murderers have gotten lighter sentences.
@sargentd: Lol. "Don Corleone can't be convicted, guys. He was never at the scene of the crime, he merely orchestrated it from afar!"
Yeah, this is disappointing. @sargentd might argue points I find revolting but is generally a bit better at debate than this.
This stance he has taken though is just kind of sad and pathetic.
Know when you're beat, and move on.
Show me then. Show me the crime he "organized". Show me some actual evidence of crime that prove he organized an actual crime. A crime worth 22 years in prison. As far as I'm concerned, he's being made an example of by the FED. I've seen nothing worth 22 years in prison. Actual rapists and murderers have gotten lighter sentences.
You can be made an example of and still be guilty. Also it should be noted, he got 2/3 of the sentence they were seeking, so technically he is getting a lighter sentence than was sought.
As for equating it to rape and murder, well, I won't argue that those are lesser crimes because they are terrible. But their overall scope and detriment to society pales in comparison to what could have happened if the government was overthrown. In either case, apples and orange.
And not to nitpick or anything, but I believe two (or more?) people died as a result of the actions on January 6th, yes?
Concerning proof/evidence:
Link
...Tarrio created a special chapter of the Proud Boys known as the “Ministry of Self-Defense,” which included co-defendants Nordean, Biggs, and Rehl. As part of this group, these defendants conspired to prevent, hinder, and delay the certification of the Electoral College vote and to oppose by force the authority of the government of the United States...
Tarrio and other leaders of the Ministry of Self-Defense hand-selected members of the organization, including co-defendant Dominic Pezzola, to serve as “rally boys” during the attack on the Capitol. To prepare for the attack, Tarrio and the other leaders established a chain of command, chose a time and place for their attack, and intentionally recruited others who would follow their top-down leadership and who were prepared to engage in physical violence if necessary.
On January 6th, the group began their assault that day at 10:00 a.m. when Nordean, Biggs, Rehl, and others marched an assembled group of nearly 200 individuals away from speeches at the Ellipse and directly toward the Capitol. At 2:11 p.m., Pezzola smashed open a window, allowing the first rioters to enter the Capitol as Biggs and those with him entered close behind...
Tarrio, who was monitoring the attack from afar, posted encouraging messages to his tens of thousands of social media followers, including: “Proud of my boys and my country” and “Don’t f****** leave.”
Tarrio privately claimed credit for the riot at the Capitol, telling Proud Boys senior leadership, “Make no mistake . . . we did this.” On January 7th, Tarrio addressed the Ministry of Self-Defense members, telling them he was “proud of y’all.”
At this point @sargentd I don't know what evidence or proof you really need when the guy himself took credit for it.
@mrbojangles25: 22 years because someone he knew..through a brick through a window.. and a bunch of people trespassed and rioted..
Making a post saying "proud of my boys and country" even if he openly supported the rioting. That's not even a crime. I don't see anything clear to warrant 22 years in prison. Especially when he wasn't even there... I understand the prosecution is trying to present this as "organized insurrection" I don't see it. They are grasping at straws. This sentencing is insane.
@mrbojangles25: 22 years because someone he knew..through a brick through a window.. and a bunch of people trespassed and rioted..
Making a post saying "proud of my boys and country" even if he openly supported the rioting. That's not even a crime. I don't see anything clear to warrant 22 years in prison. Especially when he wasn't even there... I understand the prosecution is trying to present this as "organized insurrection" I don't see it. They are grasping at straws. This sentencing is insane.
Your legal opinion is worthless, as your post history suggests you appear to not even have a grade-schooler understanding of law or civics.
You didn't objectively refute any of the evidence mrbojangles linked you. This part alone has Torrio dead to rights,
Tarrio created a special chapter of the Proud Boys known as the “Ministry of Self-Defense,” which included co-defendants Nordean, Biggs, and Rehl. As part of this group, these defendants conspired to prevent, hinder, and delay the certification of the Electoral College vote and to oppose by force the authority of the government of the United States...
Tarrio and other leaders of the Ministry of Self-Defense hand-selected members of the organization, including co-defendant Dominic Pezzola, to serve as “rally boys” during the attack on the Capitol. To prepare for the attack, Tarrio and the other leaders established a chain of command, chose a time and place for their attack, and intentionally recruited others who would follow their top-down leadership and who were prepared to engage in physical violence if necessary.
This entire thread is you saying how certain laws suck, and only because they were used on people of your political party.
Locking up someone for 22 years for terrorism... for a January 6th riot... that he never went to... that bothers me.
😂
Rules for thee but not for me!
What point are you guys trying to make??
The federal government gave 22 years in prison to a guy.. for January 6th... and he was never even at the capital... I really don't see how you guys can reason in your heads this is just sentencing...
Oh wait.. I take that back nvm. He has opposing political viewpoint than your own. Of course you don't care, probably think he should be sentenced to death. 22 years not enough.
Crazy shit
You do understand that one doesn't need to be involved in the direct hands on committal of a crime to be held legally responsible for it, yes? Have you ever heard of people being convicted for conspiracy? I'm not privy to the intricacies of the legal case against this person, but obviously he was found culpable for orchestrating what is not permitted, to far more dire ramifications than someone who simply broke glass or spread their shit on our Capitol floors in their attempts to "Make America Great Again". This has apparently been reflected in his sentence.
Stop trying to excuse and rationalize the illegal subversion of our democracy under the laughable guise of persecuting innocuous political disagreement and free speech, as all on the right are pathetically trying to pass it off as so they can cry persecuted victim. It's rubbish, and it always has been rubbish.
Good riddance to that traitor, and hopefully his conman cult leader traitor will soon join him.
@mrbojangles25: 22 years because someone he knew..through a brick through a window.. and a bunch of people trespassed and rioted..
Making a post saying "proud of my boys and country" even if he openly supported the rioting. That's not even a crime. I don't see anything clear to warrant 22 years in prison. Especially when he wasn't even there... I understand the prosecution is trying to present this as "organized insurrection" I don't see it. They are grasping at straws. This sentencing is insane.
Look dude, I've done my best, and the facts are out there. I reckon you didn't reason yourself into believing what you believe, so I'm probably wasting my time trying to reason you out of it.
If you want to live your life in some dystopian fairy tale on your way to support the losing side of history, you are free to do so. There world needs its villains, and someone has to be the loser; history has shown that people that exhibit all the traits of the far-right in this country--Trump and his ilk, Proud Boys, etc--are exactly that.
If you come to your senses (and I hope you do!), however, I am sure there would be many people in your life that would be happy to see you do so.
@MirkoS77 said:
@sargentd said:
What point are you guys trying to make??
The federal government gave 22 years in prison to a guy.. for January 6th... and he was never even at the capital... I really don't see how you guys can reason in your heads this is just sentencing...
Oh wait.. I take that back nvm. He has opposing political viewpoint than your own. Of course you don't care, probably think he should be sentenced to death. 22 years not enough.
Crazy shit
You do understand that one doesn't need to be involved in the direct hands on committal of a crime to be held legally responsible for it, yes?
@mrbojangles25: As far as SargentD goes, I think he makes fairly decent posts in regards to gaming. His posts in System Wars are usually solid.
But yeah, as far as politics go. Well, I respect him a lot more when, he backs out, possibly learning, rather than when he doubles down like he has done in this thread. He has backed out before, and it may be time for him to do so again.
That said, I don't think being rude to him here will achieve anything.
That said, there is a reason J6 conspiritors and activists are being thrown in jail. What they did was perfectly illega. You have done a good job highlighting several of the laws as to why. I just hope that Republicans will start running someone sane for once. Havent done so since John McCain. Should Trump be found guilty, any ideologically consistant law and order conservative should accept this and move on, hopefully finding someone who actually practices what he preaches, because Trump clearly was not it.
@mrbojangles25: 22 years because someone he knew..through a brick through a window.. and a bunch of people trespassed and rioted..
Making a post saying "proud of my boys and country" even if he openly supported the rioting. That's not even a crime. I don't see anything clear to warrant 22 years in prison. Especially when he wasn't even there... I understand the prosecution is trying to present this as "organized insurrection" I don't see it. They are grasping at straws. This sentencing is insane.
Look dude, I've done my best, and the facts are out there. I reckon you didn't reason yourself into believing what you believe, so I'm probably wasting my time trying to reason you out of it.
If you want to live your life in some dystopian fairy tale on your way to support the losing side of history, you are free to do so. There world needs its villains, and someone has to be the loser; history has shown that people that exhibit all the traits of the far-right in this country--Trump and his ilk, Proud Boys, etc--are exactly that.
If you come to your senses (and I hope you do!), however, I am sure there would be many people in your life that would be happy to see you do so.
@MirkoS77 said:
@sargentd said:
What point are you guys trying to make??
The federal government gave 22 years in prison to a guy.. for January 6th... and he was never even at the capital... I really don't see how you guys can reason in your heads this is just sentencing...
Oh wait.. I take that back nvm. He has opposing political viewpoint than your own. Of course you don't care, probably think he should be sentenced to death. 22 years not enough.
Crazy shit
You do understand that one doesn't need to be involved in the direct hands on committal of a crime to be held legally responsible for it, yes?
Literally doesn't understand that, I'm afraid.
my position isn't even a fringe one. Many people don't see how the crime could fit this sentence. It seems excessive. Originally the FEDS were pushing for 30 years. That's insane for "collective scarring" or "psychological harm".
This isn't terrorism and the FED had to reach. Unjust sentencing. They are being made an example of. Sentence doesn't fit the crime.
@LJS9502_basic: maybe when we get a republican back in the white house. If lefty protestors break any windows of federal buildings. I hope they give them all 30 years in prison.
Equality.
Let's give BLM rioters the Proud Boys treatment. What goes around comes around. Be careful what you wish for.
@LJS9502_basic: maybe when we get a republican back in the white house. If lefty protestors break any windows of federal buildings. I hope they give them all 30 years in prison.
Equality.
Let's give BLM rioters the Proud Boys treatment. What goes around comes around. Be careful what you wish for.
Oh stop with that BS. It wasn't simple vandalism. They were trying to stop the certification of the election.
The sentencing is left to the judge's discretion, as they are afforded a certain degree of jurisprudence in the sentencing phase on various considerations that lay outside the strict determinants of the law and its penalties respective to the charges. I don't dispute at all that the judge is seeking to instill an impression here. Good. Nail these people to the wall. Show that making such attempts against our democracy will not be tolerated. Instill fear.
You bemoan the protection of our democracy, I am ecstatic about it. These sentences are downright cathartic and I'm unapologetically reveling in them. Not one ounce of sympathy to be given, hope he enjoys his new home.
@LJS9502_basic: what goes around comes around. Set the bar how you want.
Yes, what goes around comes around so I guess it's okay if Democrats refuse election results and act like magas. Since they tend to be more intelligent, they might succeed. Be careful what you wish for.
@LJS9502_basic: what goes around comes around. Set the bar how you want.
Yes, what goes around comes around so I guess it's okay if Democrats refuse election results and act like magas. Since they tend to be more intelligent, they might succeed. Be careful what you wish for.
Yeah in 2016 Clinton lost and then started a BS investigation against the guy who beat them and dragged his name through the mud on a fake dossier claiming Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election for 3 years and weaponized the intelligence agencies against him and all of his allies *shrug*
@LJS9502_basic: what goes around comes around. Set the bar how you want.
Yes, what goes around comes around so I guess it's okay if Democrats refuse election results and act like magas. Since they tend to be more intelligent, they might succeed. Be careful what you wish for.
Yeah in 2016 Clinton lost and then started a BS investigation against the guy who beat them and dragged his name through the mud on a fake dossier claiming Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election for 3 years and weaponized the intelligence agencies against him and all of his allies *shrug*
Your timing isn't even correct, let alone the substance.
@LJS9502_basic: what goes around comes around. Set the bar how you want.
Yes, what goes around comes around so I guess it's okay if Democrats refuse election results and act like magas. Since they tend to be more intelligent, they might succeed. Be careful what you wish for.
Yeah in 2016 Clinton lost and then started a BS investigation against the guy who beat them and dragged his name through the mud on a fake dossier claiming Trump colluded with Russia to steal the election for 3 years and weaponized the intelligence agencies against him and all of his allies *shrug*
The reason Clinton got no indictments and Trump did is because Trump's actions were likely illegal. You can't and won't justify the Fake Electors plot.
@sargentd: If you are referring to the Russia Scandal. They were correct. That is why SEVERAL people in Trump's campaign were arrested for colluding with Russia.
None of this matters. Obama is going to lead us into WW2 'very soon'.
Obama. WW2. They're not typos.
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I don't know how people can watch this and a.) think Trump is strong and coherent, and b.) Biden is (compared to Trump) weak and rambling.
I've genuinely lost faith in my peers in this country simply because Trump and Biden are polling quite close, and it defies all common sense that Trump is even within 10 points. Worse, the GOP just can't seem to get this mess under control, as much as they want to. What a terrible mess they've unleashed on the world in Trump.
None of this matters. Obama is going to lead us into WW2 'very soon'.
Obama. WW2. They're not typos.
Loading Video...
I don't know how people can watch this and a.) think Trump is strong and coherent, and b.) Biden is (compared to Trump) weak and rambling.
I've genuinely lost faith in my peers in this country simply because Trump and Biden are polling quite close, and it defies all common sense that Trump is even within 10 points. Worse, the GOP just can't seem to get this mess under control, as much as they want to. What a terrible mess they've unleashed on the world in Trump.
His support is simple to understand.
1) he’s convinced millions he is the ultimate victim and unfairly treated. Thus, everything is thrown out on general principle before it even gets to the point of being considered on its merits. People literally don’t care. They take glee and make it a point not to care, it enforces the principle which is the goal.
2) mix that with a hatred of the ‘other’ and an intense distrust towards institutionalism Trump has taken years to foment and nurture with constant denigrating rhetoric, and Trump lays comfortably under an impermeable blanket of emotionally enabled indifference, apathy and anger.
His supporters are emotionally manipulated and compromised, and like any effective manipulation, they’re so riled up in their passions they don’t even realize they’re having their strings pulled.
None of this matters. Obama is going to lead us into WW2 'very soon'.
Obama. WW2. They're not typos.
Loading Video...
I don't know how people can watch this and a.) think Trump is strong and coherent, and b.) Biden is (compared to Trump) weak and rambling.
I've genuinely lost faith in my peers in this country simply because Trump and Biden are polling quite close, and it defies all common sense that Trump is even within 10 points. Worse, the GOP just can't seem to get this mess under control, as much as they want to. What a terrible mess they've unleashed on the world in Trump.
His support is simple to understand.
1) he’s convinced millions he is the ultimate victim and unfairly treated. Thus, everything is thrown out on general principle before it even gets to the point of being considered on its merits. People literally don’t care. They take glee and make it a point not to care, it enforces the principle which is the goal.
2) mix that with a hatred of the ‘other’ and an intense distrust towards institutionalism Trump has taken years to foment and nurture with constant denigrating rhetoric, and Trump lays comfortably under an impermeable blanket of emotionally enabled indifference, apathy and anger.
His supporters are emotionally manipulated and compromised, and like any effective manipulation, they’re so riled up in their passions they don’t even realize they’re having their strings pulled.
Also a big city new york elite has the support of rural america. Quite something.
Guilty by summary judgement based on undisputed facts.
All Trump related companies/entities and persons including Trump himself, his sons, the CFO, etc. are barred from doing business in NY.
All that remains will be the hearing for the Judge to determine the amount of penalty. Given the Judge found at least $3.7 Billion in false valuations over the years...I think it could be closer to a $billion than the minimum $250 million being sought.
LMAO. About time the crooked business empire is taken down.
Biden should buy Trump Tower in NYC for a discount...with all his bribe money :)
Across the board, the poll spelled bad news for Biden, with voters souring on his stewardship of the economy, immigration, age, and more.
Biden’s campaign and administration have boasted about the progress of so-called “Bidenomics,” but 44% surveyed in the poll argued that their financial picture deteriorated under his watch.
It featured a partisan split of 25% Democrats, 25% Republicans, and 42% Independents.
Guilty by summary judgement based on undisputed facts.
All Trump related companies/entities and persons including Trump himself, his sons, the CFO, etc. are barred from doing business in NY.
All that remains will be the hearing for the Judge to determine the amount of penalty. Given the Judge found at least $3.7 Billion in false valuations over the years...I think it could be closer to a $billion than the minimum $250 million being sought.
@sargentd wasn't able to defend Trump so changed topics. Polls won't and can't be used in court 🤣, but since he likes them so much lets use ones that are on topic:
@sargentd said:
Across the board, the poll spelled bad news for Biden
A plurality of Americans -- 49% -- think Trump should have been charged with a crime in the Georgia case, while 32% do not think he should have been. Fifty percent of Americans say Trump should suspend his presidential campaign, while 33% don’t think he should, per the ABC News/Ipsos poll conducted using Ipsos'
Majority Of Americans Say Trump Should Be Prosecuted On Federal Criminal Charges Linked To 2020 Election,
What is currently at stake for Trump in his NYC case?
Beyond the 250million lawsuit itself from the state, they're looking at hundreds of millions of dollars in NY business assets being liquidated by the state to pay tax and loan debts, and the business license of the company, Dumpus, and his cronies being permanently revoked in the state. Additionally their are likely billions of dollars in land and business assets that will be claimed once evidence is presented and released to the financiers.
Pretty much a worst case scenario for a fake billionaire. Ya hate to see it.
Eighty percent of the charges against the Trump organization had to be dropped on the first day of the trial. Who is the victim in this trial? The banks, they all made money. Insurance companies, they made their money. Also banks and insurance companies have their own appraisers when it come to property value. I have been on inspections of property value with bank, insurance companies and local county officials. Banks never lose on the market changes when the value of the property goes lower than when the loan was given to the owner of the property. The banks seek to renegotiate terms of the loan, if the negations are not going fast enough the banks will sell the property to another entity.
Eighty percent of the charges against the Trump organization had to be dropped on the first day of the trial. Who is the victim in this trial? The banks, they all made money. Insurance companies, they made their money. Also banks and insurance companies have their own appraisers when it come to property value. I have been on inspections of property value with bank, insurance companies and local county officials. Banks never lose on the market changes when the value of the property goes lower than when the loan was given to the owner of the property. The banks seek to renegotiate terms of the loan, if the negations are not going fast enough the banks will sell the property to another entity.
He's already been judged guilty of fraud. This is the penalty phase.
What is currently at stake for Trump in his NYC case?
Beyond the 250million lawsuit itself from the state, they're looking at hundreds of millions of dollars in NY business assets being liquidated by the state to pay tax and loan debts, and the business license of the company, Dumpus, and his cronies being permanently revoked in the state. Additionally their are likely billions of dollars in land and business assets that will be claimed once evidence is presented and released to the financiers.
Pretty much a worst case scenario for a fake billionaire. Ya hate to see it.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Trump so annoyed and angry as after he left his fraud trial. Looks like the orange toddler is finally getting to know what being held responsible for his criminality feels like.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Trump so annoyed and angry as after he left his fraud trial. Looks like the orange toddler is finally getting to know what being held responsible for his criminality feels like.
Do you think the Russians or Saudis will help him out financially?
I don’t think I’ve ever seen Trump so annoyed and angry as after he left his fraud trial. Looks like the orange toddler is finally getting to know what being held responsible for his criminality feels like.
Do you think the Russians or Saudis will help him out financially?
Only if he's elected again. Otherwise, he has nothing to offer them.
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