A coincidence of astronomical odds

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BiancaDK

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#1  Edited By BiancaDK
Member since 2008 • 19092 Posts

I once had a particular pm correspondence with gabuex in which we questioned and discussed views on the possible origins of the universe. He had his ideas (pro creator), and I had mine (no creator)

i recall the exchange being awesome, so i figured i would take the core of the theme from our exchange to you guys

'It appears that there is a set of fundamental physical constants that are such that had they been very slightly different, the universe would have been void of intelligent life. It's as if we're balancing on a knife’s edge.

Some philosophers and physicists take the 'fine-tuning' of these constants to be an explanandum that cries out for an explanans, but is this the right way to think?'

- Nick Bostom, Professor, University of Oxford

When I was kid, I often wondered to myself: "What makes a scientist believe in a Creator?"

The question puzzled me (to great personal delight), because it struck me as paradoxical that a person could - on one hand - be highly educated on the ways of the natural world, and yet on the other hand; believe in the existence of some God

God and real science seemed like two polar extremes, yet somehow some people apparently managed to balance the both and make it work

I later came to an understanding working to settle the dispute in a satisfactory manner

So, do you believe or disbelieve in a creator, and equally as important: what makes you certain in your respective conviction?

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deeliman

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#2 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts

I don't believe in a creator, but I'm not 100% certain that there is no creator. I just don't see a reason to believe in one, seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of such a being.

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BiancaDK

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#3 BiancaDK
Member since 2008 • 19092 Posts

@deeliman: what would you accept as evidence?

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deeliman

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#4 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts

@BiancaDK: If he appears before all of us and shows us he exists. I don't think there is any other way to prove its existence, but I could be wrong about that. I guess anything that would leave no reasonable doubt about his existence would be good. Unfortunately, thus far I have mostly seen people use the god of the gaps argument or the "wow everything is so pretty and complex that has to have been created" argument as if that's supposed to prove anything.

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DaVillain

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#5 DaVillain  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 56859 Posts

God and Science don't get along well.

But on a series cases, regardless if the Creator exist or not, I alone shape my future and that is what I believe.

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Master_Live

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#6 Master_Live
Member since 2004 • 20534 Posts

@deeliman said:

I don't believe in a creator, but I'm not 100% certain that there is no creator [I'm like 99% certain]. I just don't see a reason to believe in one, seeing as there is no evidence whatsoever to support the existence of such a being.

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mrbojangles25

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#7 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58933 Posts

I am an atheist, but not the militant kind; I just don't think there is a god. Not opposed to the idea; if God comes down, does some miracles, I'd be like "OK, fine, you exist, sorry" I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and go "I Cant hear YOUUU NYANYANYANYA".

With that said, I imagine a good way to live with both is to A.) have faith in God, but not religion, and B.) accept that science, fact-finding, and evidence is God's way of saying "hello". Aren't the curing of diseases, acts of charity and giving, and other beneficial actions miracles in their own way, whether divine or not.

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deeliman

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#8 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts

@mrbojangles25 said:

I am an atheist, but not the militant kind; I just don't think there is a god. Not opposed to the idea; if God comes down, does some miracles, I'd be like "OK, fine, you exist, sorry" I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and go "I Cant hear YOUUU NYANYANYANYA".

With that said, I imagine a good way to live with both is to A.) have faith in God, but not religion, and B.) accept that science, fact-finding, and evidence is God's way of saying "hello". Aren't the curing of diseases, acts of charity and giving, and other beneficial actions miracles in their own way, whether divine or not.

I don't know, I think calling the curing of diseases "miracles" discredits the huge amount of hard work that went into finding a cure by doctors/scientists.

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mrbojangles25

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#9 mrbojangles25
Member since 2005 • 58933 Posts

@deeliman said:
@mrbojangles25 said:

I am an atheist, but not the militant kind; I just don't think there is a god. Not opposed to the idea; if God comes down, does some miracles, I'd be like "OK, fine, you exist, sorry" I'm not going to stick my fingers in my ears and go "I Cant hear YOUUU NYANYANYANYA".

With that said, I imagine a good way to live with both is to A.) have faith in God, but not religion, and B.) accept that science, fact-finding, and evidence is God's way of saying "hello". Aren't the curing of diseases, acts of charity and giving, and other beneficial actions miracles in their own way, whether divine or not.

I don't know, I think calling the curing of diseases "miracles" discredits the huge amount of hard work that went into finding a cure by doctors/scientists.

yeah, i suppose it does.

Hell I get pissed when athletes thank God for their wins; first off, God wouldn't give two shits about your record, and second, don't forget about your teammates and coaches, they're the ones that helped get the win.

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Stesilaus

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#10 Stesilaus
Member since 2007 • 4999 Posts

I thought it was fairly well-established that we reside in a simulated universe, or at least that we're very much more likely to be residing in a simulated one than in a real one.

Is the Universe a Simulation?

The only question that remains is whether we should regard the programmers who wrote the code for our simulated universe as "gods".

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deactivated-5e90a3763ea91

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#11 deactivated-5e90a3763ea91
Member since 2008 • 9437 Posts

If there is a God, it just opens up this whole can of worms about where our God came from, then.

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foxhound_fox

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#12 foxhound_fox
Member since 2005 • 98532 Posts

You just reminded me about how much I miss GabuEx. :(

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battlefront23

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#13 battlefront23
Member since 2006 • 12625 Posts

I would say I believe while still maintaining deep down that everyone is fundamentally, at least to and extent, an agnostic.

And it's that exact sort of "if the world has this such and such only negligibly different, we'd all be dead" scientific discoveries that compel my belief all the more.

Trying to explain how my personal faith affects my life on an individual basis would probably just make me seem absurd and looney, so that's usually why I keep it to myself on OT or keep it brief.

:P

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AND1SALTTAPE

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#14 AND1SALTTAPE
Member since 2015 • 861 Posts

I believe in a Creator. But my views blow my own mind. A glimpse of it you can see in my 'The Talos principle' thread in the 18th post. There's much more detail involved but I can't be arsed thinking right now.

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themajormayor

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#15 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

I believe there is a creator. There is absolutely no conflict with science as of now. None.

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PernicioEnigma

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#17 PernicioEnigma
Member since 2010 • 6662 Posts

Saying intelligent life could only occur with the precise set of physical constant values we have discovered, so a creator must have designed it, is such a human-centric view of the universe. We're a product of the universe, so it's not surprising that we've developed in a way that relies on these universal constants. If the physical properties of the universe were to suddenly change, then of course it's highly likely that all but the most basic organisms would die out.

@Stesilaus said:

I thought it was fairly well-established that we reside in a simulated universe, or at least that we're very much more likely to be residing in a simulated one than in a real one.

Is the Universe a Simulation?

The only question that remains is whether we should regard the programmers who wrote the code for our simulated universe as "gods".

It's a well established theory, but I don't think it's widely believed to be true.

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deeliman

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#19 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts
@PernicioEnigma said:
@themajormayor said:

I believe there is a creator. There is absolutely no conflict with science as of now. None.

That's because anything that would conflict with our scientific understanding of the universe is explained away as a miracle, which is basically a free pass to claim something as truth without a single shred of evidence, even if the claim is extraordinary. Give me one example from any religion which is both backed up by fact AND supports any of the supernatural aspects on the religion.

You can believe in a creator without believing in any particular religion. And he is right that nothing in science is in conflict with the possibility of a creator. He never once mentioned religion.

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themajormayor

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#20 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@deeliman: yup, this

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PernicioEnigma

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#21 PernicioEnigma
Member since 2010 • 6662 Posts

@deeliman said:
@PernicioEnigma said:
@themajormayor said:

I believe there is a creator. There is absolutely no conflict with science as of now. None.

That's because anything that would conflict with our scientific understanding of the universe is explained away as a miracle, which is basically a free pass to claim something as truth without a single shred of evidence, even if the claim is extraordinary. Give me one example from any religion which is both backed up by fact AND supports any of the supernatural aspects on the religion.

You can believe in a creator without believing in any particular religion. And he is right that nothing in science is in conflict with the possibility of a creator. He never once mentioned religion.

True, that's why I deleted my post. I still wouldn't put my faith in there being a creator simply because we can't disprove it. While it's true we lack any evidence to disprove it, we also don't have any evidence to back it up.

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Allicrombie

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#22  Edited By Allicrombie
Member since 2005 • 26223 Posts

didn't the Pope recently come out and say science and religion can live in peace now?

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deeliman

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#23 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts

@PernicioEnigma: That's true and I agree with you that it does make it very unlikely that there is a creator.

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Allicrombie

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#24  Edited By Allicrombie
Member since 2005 • 26223 Posts

I've always liked George Carlin's perspective.

"I believe in the sun. I can see it, feel it, and at night it goes away and lets me sleep." "What the f--- else do I need?"

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VaguelyTagged

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#25  Edited By VaguelyTagged
Member since 2009 • 10702 Posts

i do find the notion of the religious god a bit far fetched, what interests me the most however is unity. the idea of us being the creator, projecting itself into a universe.

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TheHighWind

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#26  Edited By TheHighWind
Member since 2003 • 5724 Posts

@BiancaDK said:

So, do you believe or disbelieve in a creator, and equally as important: what makes you certain in your respective conviction?

I worship Odin and the Aesir. I would never tell a non believer why im certain though, that's like spitting in the wind. (They wouldn't believe you anyway.)

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branketra

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#27  Edited By branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

I think that if there is a deity in existence then said deity can be understood by the mathematical sciences as with everything else in existence. Furthermore, I think that projecting the desire for what an individual would like a deity to exist as is the mind projection fallacy, first asserted by twentieth century physicist and Bayesian philosopher, Edwin Thompson Jaynes, so I make an effort to refrain from engaging in such an action.

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servomaster

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#28 servomaster
Member since 2015 • 870 Posts

Possible, but on the other hand, if there are an infinite number of universes, then there would be some universes capable of supporting life.

Let's say there are in infinite number of variables, but divide that by an infinite number of universes.

Lim -> inf (x/x) = 1

There fore the statistical chance of life existing is 100%

Not saying there isn't a creator of some sort.

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branketra

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#29  Edited By branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

@servomaster said:

Possible, but on the other hand, if there are an infinite number of universes, then there would be some universes capable of supporting life.

Let's say there are in infinite number of variables, but divide that by an infinite number of universes.

Lim -> inf (x/x) = 1

There fore the statistical chance of life existing is 100%

Not saying there isn't a creator of some sort.

There is only one variable in that limit equation. It does not match your comment about infinite variables.

Perhaps infinite series would apply, instead.

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Maroxad

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#30  Edited By Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 24192 Posts

I cant know for certain whether or not a creator exists. And I just tend to leave it at that and focus other matters.

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VaguelyTagged

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#31 VaguelyTagged
Member since 2009 • 10702 Posts

@TheHighWind said:
@BiancaDK said:

So, do you believe or disbelieve in a creator, and equally as important: what makes you certain in your respective conviction?

I worship Odin and the Aesir. I would never tell a non believer why im certain though, that's like spitting in the wind. (They wouldn't believe you anyway.)

a non believer isn't necessarily an atheist. would you be ok with telling the reason to a neutral non-believers who's up to hear anything new?

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themajormayor

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#32 themajormayor
Member since 2011 • 25729 Posts

@PernicioEnigma: I didn't say that was the reason

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chaoscougar1

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#33 chaoscougar1
Member since 2005 • 37603 Posts

@foxhound_fox said:

You just reminded me about how much I miss GabuEx. :(

And Frame

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deeliman

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#34 deeliman
Member since 2013 • 4027 Posts

@Allicrombie said:

I've always liked George Carlin's perspective.

"I believe in the sun. I can see it, feel it, and at night it goes away and lets me sleep." "What the f--- else do I need?"

But I'm Dutch, I can never feel or see the sun :(

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Riverwolf007

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#35 Riverwolf007
Member since 2005 • 26023 Posts

scientists are biological entities just like everyone else and they believe in god because they get something out of it just like everyone else.

your belief is bought, ascribed to and paid for by selfishness.

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MarcRecon

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#37  Edited By MarcRecon
Member since 2009 • 8191 Posts

Because of misinformation, history and a few bad examples, people in the religious community get alot of bad press when it comes to science.

Even as a kid, I didn't see a contradiction between God and Science! Science was my favorite subject when I was young....specifically Astrophysics.

I grew up in a religious home, but my parents where very open-minded and I'm sure I speak for alot of people in the religious community.

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ferrari2001

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#38 ferrari2001
Member since 2008 • 17772 Posts

I do believe in a creator but I don't think that a creator necessitates the denial of the fundamental principles of science. Nor does that creator necessitate the denial of Evolution or the Big Bang. My idea of a creator is that which authored the fundamental laws of the universe and allowed those laws to be carried out in their own way through natural processes.

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MarcRecon

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#39 MarcRecon
Member since 2009 • 8191 Posts

@ferrari2001 said:

I do believe in a creator but I don't think that a creator necessitates the denial of the fundamental principles of science. Nor does that creator necessitate the denial of Evolution or the Big Bang. My idea of a creator is that which authored the fundamental laws of the universe and allowed those laws to be carried out in their own way through natural processes.

I totally agree, even if society doesn't believe what the religious community says about a creator, science even shows us that there was some type of intelligence or structure behind science's view of creation.

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PernicioEnigma

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#40 PernicioEnigma
Member since 2010 • 6662 Posts

@themajormayor: What is your reason?

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Gaming-Planet

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#41 Gaming-Planet
Member since 2008 • 21064 Posts

We are the creator and the destroyer.

They say we're the image of God. In ways some ways, yes.

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HoolaHoopMan

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#42 HoolaHoopMan
Member since 2009 • 14724 Posts

No I don't. Interestingly enough I just reread The Last Answer by Asimov again last night. It has always been my favorite piece of fiction of his regarding a 'creator' of sorts.

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Allicrombie

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#43 Allicrombie
Member since 2005 • 26223 Posts

@deeliman said:
@Allicrombie said:

I've always liked George Carlin's perspective.

"I believe in the sun. I can see it, feel it, and at night it goes away and lets me sleep." "What the f--- else do I need?"

But I'm Dutch, I can never feel or see the sun :(

Not with that attitude, missy !

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Celldrax

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#44 Celldrax
Member since 2005 • 15053 Posts

I can't bring myself to even remotely believe in any possibility of a god.

Every possible approach I've ever taken on this train of thought always leads me to conclude god as a "mad genius" creator who haphazardly plants the seeds of life at random points throughout history and hopes for the best (therefore, even through divine intervention our existence is little more than unintended luck).

I mean, if we really were created in gods "image" (whatever that's supposed to mean) and made to be so different, then why create us to share every conceivable biological similarity with "lower" lifeforms (especially other mammals)?

And yeah, I do know that people argue that intelligent design and evolution can coexist. The difference for me though is that evolution has real evidence that can be seen in the real world.

It can never be anything more than faith and pure speculation (things I personally have no use for) when you bring god into the picture

Some find comfort in the thought of a divine hand guiding our lives. But me, I personally find a great deal of value to be found in embracing our existence as part of an endless and chaotic natural cycle (which I fully accept as the truth of our universe).

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servomaster

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#45 servomaster
Member since 2015 • 870 Posts

@BranKetra said:
@servomaster said:

Possible, but on the other hand, if there are an infinite number of universes, then there would be some universes capable of supporting life.

Let's say there are in infinite number of variables, but divide that by an infinite number of universes.

Lim -> inf (x/x) = 1

There fore the statistical chance of life existing is 100%

Not saying there isn't a creator of some sort.

There is only one variable in that limit equation. It does not match your comment about infinite variables.

Perhaps infinite series would apply, instead.

Limit x and y ->inf (x/y) =1

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commander

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#46 commander
Member since 2010 • 16217 Posts

We don't know

So I'm agnostic.

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ShadowsDemon

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#47 ShadowsDemon
Member since 2012 • 10059 Posts

I believe in god, yes, but far from a creationist.

I think it's good to leave your mind open to the possibilities. We can't be 100% of anything in this universe, other than human stupidity of course. That's a lifelong certainty.

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branketra

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#48 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

@servomaster said:
@BranKetra said:
@servomaster said:

Possible, but on the other hand, if there are an infinite number of universes, then there would be some universes capable of supporting life.

Let's say there are in infinite number of variables, but divide that by an infinite number of universes.

Lim -> inf (x/x) = 1

There fore the statistical chance of life existing is 100%

Not saying there isn't a creator of some sort.

There is only one variable in that limit equation. It does not match your comment about infinite variables.

Perhaps infinite series would apply, instead.

Limit x and y ->inf (x/y) =1

Again, that is not infinite variables which is at the foundation of your assertion. Perhaps infinite series would apply, instead.

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comp_atkins

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#49 comp_atkins
Member since 2005 • 38732 Posts

@Allicrombie said:

didn't the Pope recently come out and say science and religion can live in peace now?

except on the internet :)

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#50  Edited By bmanva
Member since 2002 • 4680 Posts

@servomaster said:

Possible, but on the other hand, if there are an infinite number of universes, then there would be some universes capable of supporting life.

Let's say there are in infinite number of variables, but divide that by an infinite number of universes.

Lim -> inf (x/x) = 1

There fore the statistical chance of life existing is 100%

Not saying there isn't a creator of some sort.

Infinity is infinity not 1 or 100%, so your equation is utter nonsense. Seriously where did you learn math?