Wouldn't be better if Souls games were created this way?

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#1 Edited by greekwarrior46 (17 posts) -

Wouldn't be better if Souls games was created without stamina, faster combat and didn't have the same 3-4 moves for the entire game? (Please read the rest for full explanation before answering)

For those who will say that the game is meant to be played or created that way, just imagine that we live in an alternate timeline where the game have been created with faster combat, without stamina and more moves. If you say that the stamina in the game is in order to prevent spamming R1 or attacking enemies to death, putting stamina in the game in my opinion is the most stupid and lazy move I saw in all of my gaming years, they make you weak, and with slow combat too, they nerf you to such a stupid point that it gets unfair and your character is becoming slow, clunky and unresponsive. Games like Devil May Cry and Ninja Gaiden don't have stamina and slow combat, but they are not button mashers, those games won't let you spam the same attack because you fight many enemies at once, as a result there will always be an enemy to hit you so you have to be careful all the time. In Dark Souls, even though the combat is more personal, because facing multiple enemies is a death wish, they could just make enemies more aggressive and dangerous, or put a retaliation mechanic, explanation: I know this mechanic from Kingdom Hearts, when you fight certain enemies every time you hit them, an invisible gauge is getting filled and depending on the kind of attack (weak attack, strong attack, magic attack...) the filling of the gauge will vary, when the gauge is full then the enemy will retaliate by attacking or blocking or avoiding the next attack, as a result you can't spam enemies to death and have to be careful. For slow combat, it is just stupid, yeah it is supposed to be strategic and methodical and all that, but putting slow combat just makes the game feel more boring and predictable and clunky, to the point that your character feels unresponsive, the game doesn't need super speed, Bloodborne is the perfect example for speed to the point that it feels realistic without being awkwardly fast and that your character feels responsive enough to your commands. As for the moves, I believe that I don't need to tell you that repetition is just boring, using the sword for example, having the combo left-right and up-down for the entire playthrough is just so boring and annoying, the game doesn't need to have a hundred moves like DMC, just 10-15 would be ideal I think and it would be better if you unlock those new moves while you progress, it would just feel more rewarding and less repetitive. So, in summary, stamina is stupid, why my battle hardened warrior trained to fight for hours is getting exhausted by 4 swings and by running only 10 seconds? Slow combat just feels wrong, Bloodborne had the perfect speed in my opinion. Put more moves, having 3-4 moves for the entire game is boring and repetitive. I love Dark Souls, it is my favorite game but by creating the stupid Soulslike genre now every idiot who creates Action RPG's with good combat must copy the slow combat with stamina and few moves that completely ruins a big part of the experience in my opinion, is it so hard to make a good Action RPG with good combat that doesn't have those stupid flaws? Please discuss it with me, tell me your opinion about this.

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#2 Posted by sakaiXx (5294 posts) -

Limitations is a big part of the souls mechanics. Everything is tied to something like stamina bar for attack, running, rolling and magic bar for magic and stuff. It what makes souls so frustrating yet so fun to play.

Also if no stamina then you can easily stunlock enemies with infinite combo, otherwise called easy mode.

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#3 Posted by Clefdefa (716 posts) -

Souls and BloodBorne are all about the struggle to survive.

It is also realistic that you may get tire y'know.

Devil May Cry is all about the flashy combat and yes you pretty much button smash in those games.

In Soulsborne you can't go gun blazing and expect to survive ... it isn't that kind of game. You have to stay focus and manage your Stamina so you can react to the unslaught of attack.

It is obviously what you don't want from a game. i did enjoy it quite a lot.

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#4 Edited by tocool340 (21356 posts) -

Sounds like Nioh is the game for you even though it does have stamina....

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#5 Posted by greekwarrior46 (17 posts) -

@sakaixx: No offense but, didn't you read anything I wrote? Stamina is a lazy and stupid way to prevent spamming, fighting games don't have stamina and spamming is useless in better AI and players, in games like DMC and Ninja Gaiden, having multiple enemies and enemies that don't stagger prevents spamming, if nothing that I said makes sense to you then make the retaliation mechanic, which means every hit fills an invisible gauge to your enemy, when it gets full the enemy retaliates by attacking, blocking, evading you name it. How is stamina more convenient than any of my suggestions than being a lazy development option and an annoying addition to the game?

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#6 Posted by greekwarrior46 (17 posts) -

@clefdefa: In the beginning I said imagine that we live in alternative timeline where Dark Souls didn't have stamina, slow combat and the same 3-4 moves for the entire game right? Now, if Dark Souls was like this and I would propose the exact opposite of what it was, like that the game should have stamina and slow combat and less moves, then everybody would argue with me because the game wouldn't have those things, and everybody would say stuff like "the game is made to have fast combat, no stamina and more moves for [insert any reason here]". Now, because the game is made with stamina and slow combat and only a couple of moves and I propose something different, then everybody protects it like is a religion or something, with the excuse that the game is made this way for [insert reason here]. That is why I said imagine if Dark Souls would be different, imagine if the game had those things that I said and playing the game, wouldn't the game be better? This is what am I asking.

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#7 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (21502 posts) -

Play Nioh and the upcoming Nioh 2, souls games are fine the way they are. They are not supposed to be fast paced combo-based hack&slash games: they are designed as high-tension action RPGs where every attack you make is a dangerous commitment and can be punished harshly if mistimed, just like greed and poor stamina management will.

Then again Nioh is likely to irritate you even more, considering that running low on stamina and being hit when in that state leaves you staggered and helpless for about 5 seconds.

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#8 Posted by pyro1245 (4914 posts) -

There are plenty of games that have shitty stamina systems. I never felt that way about a Souls game.

The slow combat + the stamina system provides the strategic game play that I enjoy in a Souls game. A Souls character is never unresponsive. The movement is tight, but you can't interrupt certain actions after a point in the animation.

Let's also not forget that each type of weapon has a different move set, so you get 3-4 moves per weapon type. There are plenty of reasons to switch weapons depending on what you are fighting.

Like you said, I'll go play Ninja Gaiden is I want a different experience.

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#9 Posted by RSM-HQ (8203 posts) -

Nope, as someone who likes difficult Hack n' Slashers and Action RPGs stamina is a huge part towards how the A.I. patterns work in games like Monster Hunter, Souls, and Dogma. Take that away and the depth and functions fall apart.

Games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, and Ninja Gaiden are overall designed differently, and heavily designed around crowd control. Bloodborne is the only close comparison and even then is still more of an Action RPG.

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#10 Posted by greekwarrior46 (17 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: Yeah, I know what you mean because everyone says almost the same think, what I try to say is imagine if the game didn't exist like this, that it didn't have stamina and slow combat and only a couple of moves ok? Now, imagine how would the game be without stamina, slow combat and had more moves instead of being what it is, if you got that, then the game would never exist like this and nobody would know Dark Souls as a slow, stamina based and few moves Action RPG, as a result, nobody would say "but this game is made to be like this" and all that. Now, try to compare those 2 versions I am talking about, and tell me what game version would be better, I know that it is difficult to imagine it any other way, because when we experience something from a certain point of view, then if we compare it from another point it just feels wrong and off, because it is different from what we originally experienced, but at least give it a try in order to understand what I am talking about.

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#11 Edited by RSM-HQ (8203 posts) -
@greekwarrior46 said:

@RSM-HQ: Yeah, I know what you mean because everyone says almost the same think, what I try to say is imagine if the game didn't exist like this, that it didn't have stamina and slow combat and only a couple of moves ok? Now, imagine how would the game be without stamina, slow combat and had more moves instead of being what it is, if you got that, then the game would never exist like this and nobody would know Dark Souls as a slow, stamina based and few moves Action RPG,

I'm going to stop you here, you claim "to know"; then proceed to ignore the logical answer. Your theories are self servicing and not clicking with what's been mentioned. Likely out of frustration and a personal want.

Dark Souls borrows from Monster Hunter, the 'slow' combat you dislike is designed around intentional systems. Action RPGs are commonly tactical/ prep, with only mild twitch reflexes. A.I. and level design as mentioned are drastically different. If you don't like that or think my answer is one-note, that is fine? So let me expand on that_

Capcom as mentioned already have a game series around that, and it's called Devil May Cry. Devil May Cry enemies will not take cooldowns, they reposition to get blind spots. Enemies come at you from every angle and that's why speed is the name of the game, Dante will use crowd control moves to dominate the entire area, or take flight to avoid grounded foes. Otherwise he'll get picked at, and even one blow is more lethal than most Soul/ MH enemies.

DkS/MH they take the defensive commonly, and do not intentionally pick blind spots. It's designed around a one-on-one (usually) guessing game because 'shock' the A.I. has stamina as well. It's a back and forth encounter till one manages themselves correctly, or out maneuvers_

If Dark Souls had no stamina meter, it would be a very different experience. Tactics thrown out the window. From Software would completely redesign the game from scratch to match no stamina.

Many newer From Software fans don't know but before Dark and Demon's we had fast paced arcade mech games called Armored Core and Metal Wolf Chaos. And they're brilliantly designed around the speed and crowd control. No cooldown for most moves, because the game is built around it.

And for the record many people have already played Dark Souls without stamina, it's a P.C. mod on Nexus, and does break the game. Try for yourself sometime. The original DkS can run on a potato. If what is stated isn't good enough for you test what is already available_

You don't have to like stamina meters, but calling them "lazy" is wrong. You are just ignoring the function they play in these games, because you're already set in your ways.

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#12 Posted by Ish_basic (4969 posts) -

And for the record many people have already played Dark Souls without stamina, it's a P.C. mod on Nexus, and does break the game. Try for yourself sometime. The original DkS can run on a potato. If what is stated isn't good enough for you test what is already avalible_

You don't have to like stamina meters, but calling them "lazy" is wrong. You are just ignoring the function they play in these games, because they don't serve your personal desire.

Doesn't actually prove anything because those Dark Souls games are balanced with the assumption the stamina meter is in play.

To the OP, you're not actually allowed to make recommendations about how to improve the DS games. I don't know if the term still exists..."sacred cow?" It's one of those things.

I remember suggesting they fix the AI so the enemies don't wander off cliff edges (recall in DS1 or 2 in the forest where you farm the whole area for souls by aggroing all the mobs and hiding behind a rock, which would then cause all the enemies to run right off the ledge and reward you with a bunch of souls.) and that was apparently a terrible idea. Admittedly, unless it's Kojima, it is somewhat of a low blow to ask a Japanese dev to focus on AI.

I would also like to see proper intra-factional collision (no enemies shooting arrows through each other) and just proper collision in general (no axes/spears penetrating randomly through walls to hit you), but this is also a big ask apparently. If the game really wants strategy, being able to position yourself to neutralize foes and their weapon choices by either positioning yourself in a chokepoint 300-style, forcing enemies to fight in an area that puts them at risk of their own archers, or luring a 2 handed sword into a hallway where all he can do is thrust (remember the old Sword of the Berserk games?) would create a dimension above simply hack and slash.

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#13 Posted by RSM-HQ (8203 posts) -
@Ish_basic said:

And for the record many people have already played Dark Souls without stamina, it's a P.C. mod on Nexus, and does break the game. Try for yourself sometime. The original DkS can run on a potato. If what is stated isn't good enough for you test what is already avalible_

You don't have to like stamina meters, but calling them "lazy" is wrong. You are just ignoring the function they play in these games, because they don't serve your personal desire.

Doesn't actually prove anything because those Dark Souls games are balanced with the assumption the stamina meter is in play.

Except I already expanded on that with referencing how A.I. works in Hn'S games like Devil May Cry, in comparison to dkS.

I remember suggesting they fix the AI so the enemies don't wander off cliff edges

Lol, who stated that? Who would not want superior A.I. for layout positioning_

Many games do this however. I wouldn't exactly be against improved A.I. but assuming enemies don't kill themselves in other games is also humorous.

Admittedly, unless it's Kojima, it is somewhat of a low blow to ask a Japanese dev to focus on AI.

Please name a game with better CPU A.I. than Monster Hunter: World? I'll wait.

And don't feed me the low quality trash that comes out of the US (Fallout and Anthem)

To the OP, you're not actually allowed to make recommendations about how to improve the DS games. I don't know if the term still exists..."sacred cow?"

immaturity much? . .

I suppose when you have no good counter argument, insults are the calling card.

Seems you just have a vendetta against a niche DkS crowd, that's fine. Some DkS fans are passionate. I for one think the series can be improved in various ways. But lack of stamina changes more than you and OP claim.

Lacking patience to manage stamina is not the same as self sacrificing A.I.

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#14 Edited by greekwarrior46 (17 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: If Dark Souls had no stamina meter, it would be a very different experience. Tactics thrown out the window. From Software would completely redesign the game from scratch to match no stamina

Ok, I know what you mean, but for that sole reason I suggested at least 3 different approaches to balance the game without stamina, many games are played without stamina does that make them to throw their tactics out of the window? The retaliation mechanic that I said would work much more effectively if you think about it. Even without stamina, the game still feels dangerous and reminds you that you are a simple human, something that I love in this game, when you see a giant in other games he may look intimidating but usually he is weak and easy to kill, in Dark Souls like reality, when you see a giant you are going to shit your pants and run away because he is exactly what a giant should be: big, slow, intimidating and dangerous. If the game had the retaliatilon mechanic yes, you wouldn't worry about your stamina but still the game would be hard and balanced around this mechanic and staggering, even fighting multiple enemies would be very difficult because they would be also fast, powerful and dangerous. As a result, you would still need to approach each situation based on what and where you are fighting, you just wouldn't worry that your battle hardened warrior would get exhausted by 2 swings, but when you fight and your enemy recovers in the middle of your attack because you are a spammer you will die if you are careless.

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#15 Edited by RSM-HQ (8203 posts) -
@greekwarrior46 said:

Ok, I know what you mean, but for that sole reason I suggested at least 3 different approaches to balance the game without stamina, many games are played without stamina does that make them to throw their tactics out of the window? The retaliation mechanic that I said would work much more effectively if you think about it. Even without stamina, the game still feels dangerous and reminds you that you are a simple human, something that I love in this game, when you see a giant in other games he may look intimidating but usually he is weak and easy to kill, in Dark Souls like reality, when you see a giant you are going to shit your pants and run away because he is exactly what a giant should be: big, slow, intimidating and dangerous. If the game had the retaliatilon mechanic yes, you wouldn't worry about your stamina but still the game would be hard and balanced around this mechanic and staggering, even fighting multiple enemies would be very difficult because they would be also fast, powerful and dangerous. As a result, you would still need to approach each situation based on what and where you are fighting, you just wouldn't worry that your battle hardened warrior would get exhausted by 2 swings, but when you fight and your enemy recovers in the middle of your attack because you are a spammer you will die if you are careless.

I think your Kingdom Hearts retaliation mechanic idea would be interesting in a Souls game but still stand with that DkS would need to be reworked heavily. More I think the concept would only be better against bosses in closed rooms. Your idea while interesting may just be better on paper than practice; over stamina management for a variety of reasons_

First hypothetical- Unlimited stamina would lock A.I. enemies out zones quicker than they can correctly react. Certainly for smaller areas. Why fight anything? No spam needed, when the player can just take less damage and run past all enemies. Many speedrunners do this anyway, but now it's even easier. While faster more aggressive enemies may fix this somewhat the A.I. intelligence would still be similar to what From can muster and I don't believe they could react quick enough.

The reason Ninja Gaiden, DMC and yes Kingdom Hearts lock areas, is to avoid this kind of player exploit.

Second hypothetical- I invade someone and they use unlimited stamina to dash swiftly out the area, let's assume he/ she is not a fool and understands layout and enemy placement. Without stamina buffs (rings, items, stat lvling) I am from the get-go at an extreme disadvantage of the player who already has a head start and can just dart towards a fog gate, overusing rund and dodge rolling through all the A.I. along the way, with no repercussions. This is just another example in which your retaliation mechanic, while intriguing, would never come into play for a scenario. With a KH retaliation mechanic PvP is essentially thrown out the window.

Also don't agree with the game is still dangerous without stamina, I've tried the no stamina mod, think it was close to a perfect no-hit run. It was like using God cheats. Hence how I so know these two above would be real issues.

At anyrate, I'm not against your overall ideas, I just don't see it working with a game designed around the stamina mechanic, stamina is a very big part of what makes games like Dogma, MH, and Dark Souls work the way they do. While I'm not stating it would be impossible, I do believe it would create a very different kind of experience.

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#16 Posted by greekwarrior46 (17 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: OK, it may not see like it based on my replies, but I am one of those persons who tries to see both sides of the same coin instead of just focusing on one side, or I try at least. Anyway, you said that with the no stamina mod the game was so easy that you could even do a no hit run, I agree because the whole game is created around on the stamina mechanic, as a result if you remove it the whole mechanic falls apart, right? That is exactly the reason I said what if the game mechanic wasn't made around stamina and slow combat, not just remove the stamina like you said, if you remove it you must balance the whole game from the start, this is what I propose, what if the game had been made differently. As for the easy mode, speedrun, infinite roll, run and block you mention it is simple: you can put stamina only in running so the player won't run all the time (something that I am against, because if the enemies are balanced around the fact that you can run all the time, you can make them faster, more aggressive, put more enemies etc. something that will balance it). For the infinite block, you can put a stamina meter only for blocking, so that you won't block for all eternity, as for rolling, it is easy enough, your player can't roll all the time like a bonewheel skeleton, when he rolls one time, he must wait around 0.7-1 seconds in order to roll again, so we can prevent him from infinite rolling like a mindless idiot instead of playing carefully.

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#17 Posted by GettingonwithGamingLife (220 posts) -

I suppose they are designed that way. I played Monster Hunter and I get what you mean, but thats part of the challenge. Same with souls borne games(played bloodborne).

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#18 Edited by RSM-HQ (8203 posts) -
@greekwarrior46 said:

That is exactly the reason I said what if the game mechanic wasn't made around stamina and slow combat, not just remove the stamina like you said, if you remove it you must balance the whole game from the start, this is what I propose, what if the game had been made differently. As for the easy mode, speedrun, infinite roll, run and block you mention it is simple: you can put stamina only in running so the player won't run all the time (something that I am against, because if the enemies are balanced around the fact that you can run all the time, you can make them faster, more aggressive, put more enemies etc. something that will balance it). For the infinite block, you can put a stamina meter only for blocking, so that you won't block for all eternity, as for rolling, it is easy enough, your player can't roll all the time like a bonewheel skeleton, when he rolls one time, he must wait around 0.7-1 seconds in order to roll again, so we can prevent him from infinite rolling like a mindless idiot instead of playing carefully.

So from my understanding you still want a stamina meter but not for combat purposes?

At anyrate I would go back and check those mech games I mentioned by From Software, they still kind of function to Souls games in some aspects and think it fits closer to your idea. It is however got changes in ways that doesn't reflect A.I. focus on stamina.

@gettingonwithgaminglife said:

I suppose they are designed that way. I played Monster Hunter and I get what you mean, but thats part of the challenge. Same with souls borne games(played bloodborne).

I think the best way to show the A.I. differences is not from words, but how A.I. reacts in motion, formed around stamina and awareness, over hordes picking blind spots like in the mentioned games with no stamina also a stab at @Ish_basic who think Japanese are terrible at programming A.I.

This is capture from Monster Hunter 2nd G, a game released in 2008. Old game, but shows a good idea how the A.I. reacts to its surroundings. And that it has been a staple for these games for over a decade.

As you see Ganototosu has noticed the shock trap and is not falling for it at all (would do if enraged) so instead the A.I. is using defensive scripts calculating its options, to both attack and get around the trap, in an attempt to outsmart the player.

Projectile failed so it goes for its next move. If I went forward, Ganototosu would successfully ram and push me at distance without it falling in the trap still. Doing considerable damage, and its dash unexpectedly closed the distance, likely because I stood still. This is defensive A.I. in ARPG games at its finest and a perfect example of the back and forth function of combat.

If someone really thinks these games are about spamming? they did not get far.

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#19 Posted by Shmiity (6265 posts) -

No. They are the best action/RPGs to come out the past decade. And doesnt Sekiro have no stamina?

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#20 Posted by greekwarrior46 (17 posts) -

@Shmiity: Yes, I agree but what I say is that, if Souls were never created with slow combat, stamina and only a couple of moves then nobody would ever start arguing with me that those games have stamina, slow combat etc. because they would never have been created the way that everybody knows now. This is what I say, but now thanks to From Software they kind of ruined Action RPG combat that have character customization instead of those hack and slash games that the only RPG element they have is a leveling system, because now everybody must copy this stupid mechanic and if somebody like me for example says something different, then everybody will happily disagree with me because the never experienced Souls in the way that I propose, that is why everybody feels it would be wrong. It is like I am proposing what if Ferrari was a motorcycle instead of a car, of course everybody would argue with me, because thinking Ferrari being a motorcycle just feels wrong and off, but if Ferrari was never a car, but a motorcycle then nobody would argue with me by saying "No, Ferrari is a car because it is created that way for [insert any reason here]" because nobody would know Ferrari as a car but as a motorcycle, did you understand what I am saying? If yes then I believe it doesn't need any further explanation.

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#21 Edited by xantufrog (11155 posts) -

I'm not a Souls fan, but I disagree. As someone who has been involved his whole life in martial arts, I think souls combat is clunky, but the speed and stamina are not the problem. They are its redeeming feature, in fact, forcing you to fight smart (as you would in real combat, and not a bullshit kung fu movie). The AI blows, the angular control is virtually non-existent - in many ways the combat is actually bad. But holistically it accomplishes its vision.

Before you jump down my throat, I read your alternate realities. Those are called a different type of game.

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#22 Edited by Gamerno6666 (6663 posts) -

Play it on PC and use trainer for infinite stamina.

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#24 Posted by Clefdefa (716 posts) -

It would be a completely different game if didn't have the stamina and the fast pace action of games like Devil May Cry.

Like some said before me, DMC is all about beating the shit out of a lot of stuff and fast.

While Dark Souls or Bloodborne is all about commitment ... every hit can mean your death. it kinda turn those games into survival horror in some part ( more Bloodborne case ... )

And Dark Souls and Bloodborne are games with RPG element ... So even though they are action RPG, they can't be that fast. Anyway all those things make the game and every action mean a lot more than button smashing.

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#25 Posted by lucidique (570 posts) -

@tocool340 said:

Sounds like Nioh is the game for you even though it does have stamina....

The moment you don any form of armor, Nioh becomes way more punishing in term of stamina use than Soulsborne games ever did.

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#26 Posted by ejyqheyz (3 posts) -

any

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#27 Posted by RSM-HQ (8203 posts) -
@ejyqheyz said:

any

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#28 Posted by GNS (318 posts) -

You know, it's funny, I tried DS1 Remastered for the very first time, and, my God, the game is sluggish (with normal enemies I have no problem, but when it's time to roll around, you're like a sack of potato, and your stamina depletes quickly. Could not even get past the first boss due to this (I mean, I know the tactic, but my character is effin sluggish)).

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#29 Posted by Maroxad (15228 posts) -

Not at all, Dark Souls design is heavily built around the management of stamina. And more methodological combat.

Dark Souls was extremely deliberate in its design. This of course doesnt mean every game should use stamina. But stamina works well for souls.

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#30 Edited by GNS (318 posts) -

Update: changed my starting char to a assassin or whatnot he's called with high dex. The game is a breeze now :D