Would you call Dark Souls a hack-n-slash?

I was telling my friend at work he should check out dark souls and he said hes not into hack-n-slashes. Would you call Dark Souls a hack-n-slash?

No, it's not a hack-n-slash. Dark Souls takes strategy with a deep learning curve, and a lot of trial and error to learn when how and how to place the right moves. TC, it's time to get a new friend.

Lol, ok maybe don't take it that far, but a punch in the guts should work.

Thats what i told him !! He disagreed. How many other people agree???

no its not hack in slash

It is hack and slash. Because you can hack and slash through your enemies. :). Simple right ?

It is kinda a hack n slash but you can't just mindlessly hack n slash. Maybe your friend just doesn't like sword fighting fantasy type games.

You know. People don't understand the simplicity of certain genres' identity.

A hack and Slash game is a game where you hack & Slash through your enemy.

A Platforming game is a game where you "maneuver" in between platforms.

A First Person Shooter, is a Game where you shoot in first person perspective, same for 3rd Person Shooter.

A Racing game is a game where you race.

They have simple definition but can be applied in a variety of ways. Your friend is just jumping to conclusions.

But if I say a Role Playing game is a game where you Play a Role then all hell breaks loose !

IMHO Souls series games are hack'n'slash RPGs.

Complexity of gameplay and level of implemented tactics doesn't really matter here. Some people consider the Icewind Dale series to be hack'n'slash rpgs, although they are quite complex when it gets to tactics and party management (as any other infinity engine DnD rpg).

The main reason, why a game is (or isn't) a hack'n'slash rpg, is its approach to character progression and role-playing.

In non-hack'n'slash rpgs the focus is primarily on the story and the way it influences the character. Combat is also important, but it never plays a greater role than the story itself. We could say that the combat serves the purposes of the story.

In a hack'n'slash rpg it is the other way round. The main focus is on the game's (melee) combat, while the story becomes only a filler content and has no influence on the player's character. Character development in such games is driven primarily by monster killing and statistics boosting. (e.g. Dark Souls, Diablo, Torchlight etc.)

Also, wikipedia states the following: "Hack and slash has its roots in "pen and paper" RPGs such as Dungeons & Dragons, denoting campaigns of violence with no other plot elements or significant goal. The term itself dates at least as far back as 1980, as shown in a Dragon magazine article by Jean Wells and Kim Mohan..."

There's also the term "action rpg", which describes gameplay mechanics better, but imo it isn't mutually exclusive with "hack'n'slash rpg".

@ herezjarchus

I don't think its that Complicated. I think an H&S game is a game that has Hacking and Slashing in it. Be it Role Playing, 1st Person Action, Or even Strategy. Same with Platforming or Racing.

Ofcourse Quantitl plays a role.

I only wanted to point out, that formerly (in rpgs), it served as a term for differentiating (in a way) story-driven rpgs from their combat-driven counterparts.

You may be right that nowadays it's that simple. It's actually so simple that it tells absolutely nothing about a game, thus we can consider it a dead term, although many (I don't know why, but I do believe Diablo series had a part in this) think that hack'n'slash games ALWAYS equals button mashers with melee weapons, which isn't entirely true. The original idea of hack'n;slash was simply more of a "plot thing" (if we can even call it that way).

@ herezjarchus

Yeah I see. Genre Specificity has become a real pain in the @ss lately. A game can't be just a single thing anymore, and genre splicing has made identifying characteristics much much trickier.

Also I made a boo boo.

Its not Quantity that Plays a Role in defining these things.... Its Ratio.

E.g. The Ratio of Hacking and Slash to Role Playing....

I seen most people label diablo 3 as a hack and slash and thats an action role playing game(though others would call it a dungeon crawler). So I don't see why the same could be say the same for dark souls

@ TheShadowLord07

Sometimes you Have "Compound Genres". These are genres that are made of smaller genres like Stealth, Dungeon Crawlers, Adventure and RogueLikes.....

@ TheShadowLord07

the Naruto Anime has a Simular concept. Some Chakra Affinities are just compounded versions of other affanities. Ice Style is a combination of Water and Wind Style, Particul Style is a Combination of Fire Earth and Wind Style. As for what Naruto has to do with any of this then your guess is as good as mine. ;)

The last third of the game's bosses can be beaten by hacking and slashing. The game also devolves into a hack and slash upon returning to earlier areas and running through them with little care or patience to put up your shield, but the first time through you won't have the timing or know how to hack and slash through enemies.

Of course Dark Souls is a Hack&Slash game, claiming anything else is just strange.

Nope, I wouldn't. Hack n slash games are usually characterized by building huge combos out of a diverse set of moves. I'd call it a highly methodical dungeon crawling ARPG.

It´s an action RPG with the emphasis on the action part.

Ehh? when did hack&Slash become a definition for that?

First of all Hack and Slash is carried over from the old D&D world and would be used about swords, halberds, axes etc.... because low and behold you hack and slash your way through the enemies.

So what kind of combat is predominantly in Dark Souls? yes you guessed it "hack&Slash" ..

@Jacanuk: Well whenever I think of the term hack n slash I think of games like Devil May Cry. Yeah, technically, in Souls you are hacking and slashing.

This is the same argument with the term role playing game... Yes, technically any game where you use a sword could be considered a hack n slash, but when a lot of people think hack n slash, they think of games like Devil May Cry. Using your argument, you could call Zelda a hack n slash. After all, you're hacking and slashing at enemies with your sword. The Souls games are much more deliberate and methodical than other games that qualify as hack n slash. Because of that, I wouldn't consider the games hack n slash, at least not in the usual sense.

Yeah I agree when i hear the term hack n slash think about the devil may cry franchise. Which i really didnt enjoy all that much. So when i hear someone shrug off any souls game as a hack n slash im like whattt? no way. Its a bit more slow paced and tactical to just be swinging like crazy and trying to string along a bunch of combos. For example ::::::: Bayoneta, Omnimusha, god of war, prince of persia,Darksiders, ninja gaiden, Maximo..... I honestly think these games are sort of a dying breed because players crave more depth in story and game play mechanics. I think darksouls has a rich story along with excellent combat. with a few different avenues to go down. magic, melee etc. Action roleplay would be the best genre to throw it under. I would describe the combat as tactical and difficult

I agree. It is a hack n slash, it's just a slow version of it. It's more hack n slash than RPG. Just cause a game has RPG elements doesn't make it an RPG guys. Almost every game has a component that we used to call an RPG element. Now it's just in everything.

@Nanomage: To be fair, all Action RPGs have an emphasis on the action. That's why they're Action RPGs!

@firefox59: Buuuut it's a lot more slow paced than your average hack n slash game. The user above you said that it's more of a methodical, tactical ARPG, and I'd have to agree, although, YES, the games have elements of hack n slash (in that you are hacking and slashing with a weapon).

I hope I can clarify things.

As long as I have been playing video games (early childhood), I and people who write about games have usually considered "hack 'n slash" as a genre of games similar to "beat 'em ups." The difference between the two is that in hack 'n slash have weapons as the primary offense and fists or feet are the primary offense. The similarity is that there is little defense in either of them; offense or evasion comprises most of the gameplay. If blocking is a normal part of gameplay, then it is not a hack 'n slash or beat 'em up.

@ BranKetra

There are some DMC type Hack & Slash Games that do feature blocking as a core aspect of combat..... Infact, you actually could block in DMC 4.... They called it Royal Guard. And I think MGR featured it too.

True. I consider those to be action games. It would not be proper to call them hack 'n slash. Dynasty Warriors is a perfect example of a hack 'n slash. Onimusha (Another game in which there is a high amount of swordplay, evasion, and blocking) is not.

Royal Guard in Devil May Cry 4 and Devil May Cry 3 before it is a style in which Dante can completely guard himself against most enemy attacks and (FYI) unleash a counter attack powered by built energy from blocking.

Metal Gear Rising's Raiden uses a parry technique, but not blocking.

I consider those to be action games. Calling them hack 'n slash would not be proper because you do much more than button mash the attack button during a sizable percentage of gameplay in order to beat those games. Dynasty Warriors is a perfect example of a hack 'n slash. More examples of action games are the most recent Ninja Gaiden 1 and 2. The artifical intelligences which makes another distinct difference between hack 'n slash and games like Devil May Cry in those games are too challenging per battle to be considered as part of the same type of gameplay.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but there are certain things that have been accepted by video game journalists over the years.

@ BranKetra

I think your defense/blocking argument is weird but still distinctive so I can't oppose it. But I doubt the Artificial Intelligence makes much of a difference.

It certainly does a disservice to the series to label it a mere 'hack and slash' game.

Its not an easily definable game, though if you needed to lump it in a genre for convenience's sake, I would definitely use 'RPG'. The purpose of labels in a discussion is mainly to provide a common ground of relatability. If I say a game is a 'fighting game', that brings to mind Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, etc. Dark Souls could technically be argued to be a 'fighting game', cuz you fight in it, but its a terrible use of the label because it provides a very inaccurate portrayal of what the game is for the other person. That's a more extreme example, but its likewise not a good use of the label 'hack and slash' to use to describe Dark Souls as that will make people think its something different than it is.

If I didn't need to be convenient about it, I'd say the Souls games are 'Challenging 3rd person RPG's set in a dark and surreal fantasy world with deep and weighty real-time combat mechanics'.

@ maynardburger

"Challenging 3rd person RPG's set in a dark and surreal fantasy world with deep and weighty real-time combat mechanics"

"RPG" describes nothing because its so damn ambiguous, and as for the "Challenge, Deep, Combat Mechanics" doesn't quite do Dark Souls justice !

I'd describe it as "a Slower Version of an Action Game which Features Hacking and Slashing governed by Stats and Attributes, that is more Punishing than it actually is difficult"

RPG is a pretty commonly used and well-known genre label that Souls games certainly fit under. There's different types of RPG's certainly, which is why my longer 'label' was more specific.

According to you, RPG should never be used to describe a game, which absolute nonsense.

@ maynardburger

Try defining an RPG and getting everbody to agree with you and then we'l just how much sense it makes.

Perhaps you'l get an idea of what real "absolute nonsense" is.

Define 'action game'. Define 'adventure game'.

The point is that people DO understand what is roughly meant when you say 'RPG' just as people understand what is meant by the above labels. There's no one strict definition of it as its an umbrella label, with several subgenres.

Again, I think you have to go back to what the point of a label is. Its to be able to communicate to someone what something is easily using a common understanding. Arguing the semantics of it or being pedantic about it is missing the point when people already get it. If I just said 'RPG' of course I'd need to say more to describe the Souls games, but that's what I did. But overall, if you're gonna put the Souls games under an umbrella label, it would be 'RPG' not 'hack and slash'. It has the length, loot and heavy emphasis on stats that is more common to RPG's than hack and slash games. I'm sure you might be able to think of exceptions, but exceptions are just that - exceptions. Not the norm.

@ maynardburger

Action is a game that attempts to lend more Direct control to the player for the character's actions, its also an umbrella term, it applies to just about every game that feature well, anything from spaceships to to humans. However if the particular action the game consists of is clear and appearent.... Then you can use terms like Hack & Slash, Beatem-Up, Shooter (Yes its an action), Platformer and so on, basicly just say what you do in the game.

Adventure game.... Well thats alot trickier its got something do to with Problem Solving but that could be anything. I only got into the genre 3 years ago.

RPGs, from what I know, is the process of putting another "shunt" in between the game and the player. RPGs didn't feel like having a controller was enough to seperate the player from the game so they added stats and attributes too, so intsead of having to move the right stick to aim in a shooter (Mass Effect 2) they wedge an "Accuracy" Attribute that acts as a middleman for the characters aim (Mass Effect 1) add about 50 of these attributes and then you'l see why the "Mass Effect is an RPG vs Mass Effect 2 is Shooter" argument is so stupid..... Or maybe you won't... Doesn't matter because it is undisputable how stupid it is. How ever that was just a way to preserve the integrity of what Role Playing is: A game in which you develope and define a character, numbers just happen to be the preferred way to do that, there are other ways but people would disagree. Thanks to this simple definition... This has made it the go to formula to apply to just about every genre.... Hence why its not particularly helpfull in a description especially when used in conjunction with Action Games that aren't forth coming about what actions they consists of.

As for things like Atmosphere and Story.... Not necessar in traditional games, thats for Survival Horror and things like that.

That you admit 'action game' is an umbrella term and that you cant define 'adventure game' specifically is kinda what I was getting at. You may not be able to define them in specific terms, but if you say 'action game', you still tend to know *generally* what sort of game it is. Of course most games need a bit of extra specifics to really narrow down an apt description, but for convenience's sake, you still go with the more established norms of genre labels to describe games.

Diablo and Mass Effect are both good examples of games that are harder to pin down, but that's normal. Labels aren't meant to be scientific classification like with species, where very exact genealogical standards can apply, so there will *always* be exceptions and outliers. But for convenience's sake, its easier to describe the Souls series as an RPG rather than hack&slash. You can of course narrow it down more than that, which is what we were doing, and I don't disagree with your description necessarily and I don't know what you have against mine, but if you need a single label, RPG is more apt than hack and slash, which brings to mind a different sort of game.

Interesting question here, why do you see Hack´Slash as a negative mark? because there is nothing negative about that at all, its just a way to describe a game like Dark Souls because being hack&Slash isent about speed, isent about doing combo´s or link up attacks, its been used since the D&D days and just describes the use of swords and those kinds of weapons opposite to guns and bows and the fact that you hack and slash through enemies. Its not even that complicated.

I didn't say anywhere that hack and slash was a negative thing. :/

Well, using disservice clearly indicates something negative.

Otherwise you wouldn´t have a problem using the term.

Context, my friend.

Its a disservice because it paints a misleading picture of what Dark Souls is, not because hack and slash is a bad thing to be labelled.

@ maynardburger

You also said "mere hack & Slash" that also seems like put down.

Context, once again.

I didn't mean it in an insulting way whatsoever and am unsure how anybody competent with the English language would interpret it in such a way.

I'm saying that it 'does not do the game justice' to call it that, just as you yourself said of my description earlier. Its not an insult, just saying that its too simplistic and misleading.

You want a ropeladder for the hole you're digging?

Hack&Slash paints a misleading picture? ok, so the game isn't about "hacking" ie using Swords, Axes, Halberds, etc. against enemies? because unless my eyes were failing me, that is what happens in DS.

So again you clearly attributes a negative value to Hack&Slash when its just a term to describe - And again i will try to explain - the action of using swords/axes/Etc.......

I cannot for any reason see any misleading or disservice to Dark Souls or any souls game by being labeled correct as a hack&slash game.

If you are competent with the english language you would clearly not write how you did.

What you are doing is the same as saying "I dont mind gingers but i dont want to be near or friends with gingers". So again its not that hard to see that you hold Dark souls to a high value, and that you contribute Hack&Slash as something generic, and that it adds a negative value to "dark Souls"

I've said *nothing* negative about hack and slash at any point. Just that it isn't the best 'label' for the Souls games.

You're trying to make an argument out of nothing, I'm afraid.

@ maynardburger

You're using "Context" the Sameway Ken Levine uses Quantum Physics in Bioshock Infinite

You should really stop digging your hole deeper.

Anyways it doesn't matter, because Dark Souls 1-2 and Demons are clearly Hack´slash games.

@ Jacanuk

What if you're playing as a Mage or an Archer ?

Action RPG, IMO.