Why Retro Gamers Exist (and a bit about Phantasy Star)

Avatar image for jackamomo
#1 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

"You're a retro gamer, which is cool" - some a-hole last week

Because game design, quite simply hasn't moved on since 2002.

People don't buy the latest game consoles because they want new games, they buy them just so they can admire the graphics and play all the games that already exist, but with better graphics.

The thing is. When you get to about 30 you really stop caring unless you are some sort of technophile.

The games however have simply got worse. To play. The reason is game design based on graphics>gameplay.

Take NHL2K series. The best version is 2K2. Why? Because if your masochistic enough to try and actually play that game, you would play the 2K2 over 2K18 because, even though it's harder, they have not reduced the speed at which your character moves, in favour of animating that movement more smoothly, sacrificing quick movement, for a more smooth movement animation.

This prioritising of animation over a control's responsiveness extends into all action games, even down to making Mark of the Ninja the most boring game ever even though it got really good reviews and is kind of 'retro'.

Splinter Cell (PS2) plays differently to a new Tom Clancy game because there's practically no movement turn animation, basically changing the way the game play to how it does now, almost completely, from including a response/reaction game mechanic, to a more pre-emting and timing control scheme to account for animations whilst controlling your character.

Also, game design has not move forward with the re-release of Thief, being an example of how modern game design has taken away alot of the freedom of playing games, in favour of setting you in a kind of interactive story which puts training wheels on (mandatory tutorials :'( ) and fences you in. You can only use your grappling hook on predetermined places is weak sauce.

Take the J-RPG, a dying genre. J-RPG being giant headed, blue haired and gaint eyes people wader around town talking to everyone to figure out what to do next and fight monsters along the way and level up. Well that hasn't moved forward for 20 years if Square Enix's Final Fantasy series is anything to go by.

The last good game if this type is Phantasy Star Online, which mixed true controlled characters, with group online play and arcade style, hit-box-based combat system in the style of Diablo. There is lock on, but after I watched it being played I finally realised you can change your weapon mid fight and cast aoe spells, hence making where you're standing or facing, a key mechanic of the gameplay and also how World of Warcraft basically took PSO and put orcs and wizards in instead of JRPG blue haired people. But WoW doesn't even have as deep aoe weapon mechanics and hit boxes as sophisticated.

The Phantasy Star series on the Mega Drive dates the progression of that genre quite well. The Master System version was released unchanged on the Mega Drive (so you could catch up I suppose if you didn't have a MS).

Phantasy Star II is what you would expect with better graphics and sound but sadly lost the 3d dungeons (Yuji Naka was away) but it all looks nicer and is more expansive than the first although loses the planet travelling until halfway through.

Phantasy Star III introduced branching timelines, more attractive pixel art style (thanks to the Golden Axe team) and a stellar and memorable haunting soundtrack. PS3 introduced a new mechanic in fights, in splitting enemies into four areas: front back left and right. Also, a reactive in-fight soundtrack changes depending on how the fight is going - from tense to triumphant as you win but it does get a bit repetitive.

You can fully automate the battle, attacking the front row first then the larger back row enemies, just automate one move for each member, using their primary weapons (up to two) attacking either a row, column or individual enemy, depending on the equipped weapon, then just press it again until you've won. Or select actions for each character, including defending party members or buffing them with item and techniques. So each battle can be completed with just 2 button presses.

The technique mechanic is different in that all techniques use a set amount of technique points and only differing in power by level of the caster and setting the spell priorities of the 4 available within each spell 'technique': 'heal', 'time' (debuff enemies), 'melee' (attack) or 'order' (buff allies) in special 'shield' sign buildings in towns. It's a shame you have almost no reason whatsoever to use anything but gires and carry antidotes.

The backs of the characters are dropped in battle, giving way to the first person view used in the first game but with attacks animated in large effects like claws marks or bullet holes, and with simple scrolling parallax backgrounds.

Phantasy Star 4 came out and dropped branching storylines (brides to marry) in return to linear narrative and lost the (in my opinion superior) pixel artists of the PS3 team but had access to 24MB of storage to include a longer story. Also it included an attack fight macro system and icons make it actually possible to remember what the spells do.

But sequels in those days did tend to sometimes try to change something about the game rather than depend on a superior set of technologies, in graphical processing capabilities.

Shining Force 1 - 4 are very notable here as they very much popularised the j-rpg strategy genre and remain my favourites. With each episode changing how the game played in subtle ways, or compromises, in lieu of actually more advanced hardware, as in the PC market, to depend on.

PS: I would like to change an earlier statement I made about Sonic Spinball being the best SMD pinball game when it is Dragon's Fury by Technosoft as Spinball was not programmed in machine code but hastily ported in C hence it has an unacceptably bad frame rate and is actually boring and a bad game.

PPS. I take no pleasure and no enjoyment of slowly turning a woman into a lizard by destroying her brain with a giant ball bearing. Technosoft... You weirdos.

EDIT: I was actually talking about NBA2K2, duh.

Avatar image for deactivated-5c18005f903a1
#2 Posted by deactivated-5c18005f903a1 (4627 posts) -

I disagree.

Avatar image for RSM-HQ
#3 Posted by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

I play new and old games, on both ends have duds and masterpieces. So while some here have called me a Retro Gamer, I prefer to call myself just a Gamer. I'm not the sort that thinks all old games are outdated and outclassed. However I'm not a nostalgic fool who dismisses new games either, and what they bring into the hobby in creative and replayable ways.

Because game design, quite simply hasn't moved on since 2002.

Case and point. @jackamomo I recall having a MechWarrior and Armored Core discussion with you (I've played both series and recall MW handling like garbage). And despite having no experience in AC you instantly dismissed the series after an exceedingly brief montage video of the entire series on Youtube.

I think you take too much of modern gaming from viewing glimpses and not ever playing the games themselves, you've got to the point you only like to play what you grew with and dismiss anything that's remotely modern.

So stating game design not moving since 2002, is you refusing anything past 2002. Call it a state of denial if you will. Plenty here in the forums could tell you a range of games in the past seventeen years that took game design in a different and interesting direction, yet with a dismissive attitude, it falls on deaf ears.

So unless you be a bit more open minded I don't really see the purpose of this being a thread on GD, may as well have been a blog entry.

Avatar image for vfighter
#4 Edited by VFighter (4043 posts) -

@jackamomo: There's so,many wrong, stupid, and purely opinions in your post I wouldnt know where to begin. Luckly all we need to read is "gaming hasn't changed since 2002" to know you have zero,idea what the hell you're talking about.

Avatar image for RSM-HQ
#5 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@vfighter: I got up to him ranting about Tom Clancy games. Which frankly most are developed by different teams, with completely different gameplay mechanics, and project goals.

Tom Clancy himself isn't even involved with these games really, he's a science-fiction book writer and the games are loosely based on his novels and ideas.

Avatar image for outworld222
#6 Posted by outworld222 (2937 posts) -

Hm. I get what you’re saying. As we age, we tend to hold on to the memories, and perhaps as a consequence, the video games we cherish. And I get what you’re saying about JRPG games in that nobody likes random encounters every 5 steps. Takes out a lot of the fun. Same thing with figuring out what to do by talking to different NPCs.

But I would argue that good games are being made all the time. Although few and far in between. But it is a constant. I also think your graphics sentiment vs controller input is spot on.

What I miss about the old games, is really the charm of playing these said games. There’s no “magic” to games these days. Back in the day, you played a game, and it was felt like it was a privelage. How did we get here?? I don’t know. Maybe too much time has passed by since 2002.

I’m also sure developers are not to blame. They keep getting pushed (in all likelihood) to get a game released by a certain date.

What about the creativity of it all?? It’s not a sprint. But there are deadlines I assume.

I say we as consumers step back, take a deep breath, and organize our priorities. Vote with your wallet!! It’s not all about COD!!!

Ps I liked Medal of Honor, great game.

Avatar image for jackamomo
#7 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: Case and point. @jackamomo I recall having a MechWarrior and Armored Core discussion with you (I've played both series and recall MW handling like garbage). And despite having no experience in AC you instantly dismissed the series after an exceedingly brief montage video of the entire series on Youtube.

MW3 handles like a flight simulator which is basically is, like MW2 and you do long missions covering 20klm or so. Armoured Core is a fun arcade game where you pilot a mech around a map, combating other mechs online and sits somewhere between MW3 and MWO by From Software who also made Frame Grider, which is a very very early AC game.

I like Dirt 2 which came out in 2009 so there must be some good games coming out after 2002 I suppose.

Avatar image for pook99
#8 Posted by pook99 (795 posts) -

Retro gamers exist because old style games have a certain type of charm that is different than modern games. They also tend to be more challenging which is something that many retro gamers want. Also, the classics are still a ton of fun, most of the greats from the 8/16 bit era have aged wonderfully and playing games like castlevania, mega man, mario, and so many more are just as great now as they were back in the day.

Having said that modern games are also great, there are tons of modern games which are just amazingly immersive and present breathtaking worlds and some engaging stories.

Both types of games are great for different reasons and one of the best parts of being a modern gamer is the wealth of choices that we have available to us.

Avatar image for RSM-HQ
#9 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@jackamomo said:

Armoured Core is a fun arcade game where you pilot a mech around a map, combating other mechs online and sits somewhere between MW3 and MWO by From Software who also made Frame Grider, which is a very very early AC game.

From Softwares first game was in 1994 and was called King's Field, and its second game was Armored Core in 1997.

You are wrong, Frame Gride is the name, and it came after Armored Core and would mostly have visual elements in common with AC and King's Field, the intent is to be a more streamlined and arcade experience. Chasing a different audience to Armored Core and K'sF.

Frame Gride is more of that experience you mentioned above, an Arena Brawler, with simplistic attribute layers. Not having much in common with AC honestly. AC is far more about equipping complex parts for various effects and knowing how to use them for advantages and disadvantages. They both control and handle very differently.

Armored Core has more of a Dark Souls feel to it in which reflexes and decisions heavily matter, and will decide your fate, FG was floaty and unresponsive so at times would be more luck or exploiting the systems. FG was never used to influence future AC games either, quite the opposite was pushed aside and forgotten due to poor reputation. FG is considered a rushed and poorly received game, that would not be explored till later_

Many years later a somewhat successor to Frame Gride would eventually get made which is far more polished and interesting. From Software stated Frame Gride was being used as a guideline for Metal Wolf Chaos. While not an Arena Brawler, was that straight to business kind of Arcade approach having a lot of things in common with FG, while refining and improving upon it. MWC is getting a port on X1, P.C. and PS4 soon. Heavily considered one of From Softwares best games during the 128-bit generation. Certainly recommend it, a personal favorite_

*So case the above was too long Frame Gride is pretty trash and plays nothing like Armored Core. FG was more a lump of clay that would be formed into Metal Wolf Chaos.

Avatar image for xantufrog
#10 Edited by xantufrog (10103 posts) -

I like old games and new games. I tend to get into kicks, where I binge more on one type out game or another, but there's a lot to love from all eras of gaming

Avatar image for jackamomo
#11 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ:

You sure know alot about From Software and I am showing my ignorance here. I didn't know you could deck out your mech loadout for instance. But I don't think AC or MWC or FG are remotely the same kind of game as Mechwarrior 1-4 which are military combat simulators with long missions and not at all arcady.

Which is why I was so prickly when, even though you were the only guy that commented on my Mechwarrior thread. You still didn't know about those games so talked about a completely different kind of game. The original MW games are kind of forgotten now really.

I think you take too much of modern gaming from viewing glimpses and not ever playing the games themselves, you've got to the point you only like to play what you grew with and dismiss anything that's remotely modern.

I stay up to date on the latest releases which is why I felt justified in making my statements about modern game design deteriorating. I watch long plays and lets plays for alot of the new games.

From the top 40 PS4 games there's not much that interests me.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/best-ps4-games/

I could play the latest Diablo or GTA games or Bloudbourne on PS4 but I know I only like GTA for driving around aimlessly, Bloudbourne looks shallow to control and Diablo III is a flawed game with pacing issues. so I will only be playing them to admire my new expensive graphics machine which will be obsolete in 5 years.

Hitman 2, RDR2, Nier Automata, God of War, Shadow of the Colossus Remastered, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Uncharted, Spider Man, more Soul Calibur games, Resident Evil, new Doom, more FPS's, Overwatch, Titanfall, Battlefield, Fortnight. The new x-com games.

These are all just simplified versions of games I already know and will soon get tired of the graphics.

Fireaxis managed to release multiple x-com game with the core mechanic broken. In the new x-com games it makes no difference if you auto-fire, aim or snap shot because it only calculates 1 roll for all three auto shots so they all hit or none hit. Why is this not an affront to game journalists? Where is the geoscape? I spit on the new x-com games. Also, it is a resource hog and it's a turn based game ffs.

I picked up a Batman Arkham game for like £4.50 on Steam. PLayed for a few hours then kind of got stuck. Controls were responsive with low latency. But I just couldn't be bothered to finish it. It was just not rewarding to use a combat system where I had no idea how I was doing all this stuff. I didn't need to aim or anything. Just walk near some guys then start hammering the mouse. To be honest I felt silly. Even though I was on my own.

All the above PS4 games would send me to sleep. I don't play games to look at them, I play games to interact with them.

I played Trine and it was sh*t. Mark of the Ninja played slowly and was boring. Braid and World of Goo are good indy games though. Also Prison Architect is ridiculously addictive. Also Mini Metro, a simple puzzle game is nice and Euro Truck Simulator games.

More recently I bought Dirt Rally and Into the Breach (which is a mech game but nothing like MW3).

@xantufrog I play games on Genesis emulator alot because there just aren't platform or 2d games like that any more. I even bought a Sega usb control pad for like £4. You can get so skilled at those games due to the responsive controls. Only Hotline Miama allowed that level of skill cap in a recent game.

There is a new Castlevania game that looks interesting though. http://spectralinterlude.com/

Loading Video...

Also Old Tower. http://www.indieretronews.com/2018/11/old-tower-retrosouls-aims-to-impress.html which you can play here.

Loading Video...

PS. It turns out NHL 94 is the best Genesis NHL game. I know because I played them all last night and that was the version I used to own. It controls differently and having not scored a goal over the 5 games I loaded up before, I loaded up NHL '94 and scored in 10 seconds. I think it was muscle memory...

Avatar image for RSM-HQ
#12 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@jackamomo said: You sure know alot about From Software and I am showing my ignorance here.

We all have games and developers we know about, depending on interest, living region, and genres of preference. I've been pretty ignorant about games/ developers/ and publishers many on the Forums have brought up so it's not like I'm a living wiki to all games. We can't all have played every game. World of Tanks is a game I recall you bringing to my attention_

But I don't think AC or MWC or FG are remotely the same kind of game as Mechwarrior 1-4 which are military combat simulators with long missions and not at all arcady.

True they're not really. I don't really recall the exact ol' conversation we had, but I think you just openly called MechWarrior the only good mech games so I countered with my love for Armored Core and Metal Wolf Chaos. They are different in the sense I always assumed Mech Warrior is going more for a simulator/ realistic approach of what it would be like if giant mechs was real and how it would be to control them. Which personally found clunky as I'm more about fluidity. Goes back to the different preferences statement

The original MW games are kind of forgotten now really.

While didn't have much love for the ones I played, I do know of them, and recall it showing up when researching best games from the early 90's. GoG keeps older P.C. games relevant, and commonly adds DOS classics into sale bundles.

Hitman 2, RDR2, Nier Automata, God of War, Shadow of the Colossus Remastered, Shadow of the Tomb Raider, Uncharted, Spider Man, more Soul Calibur games, Resident Evil, new Doom, more FPS's, Overwatch, Titanfall, Battlefield, Fortnight. The new x-com games.These are all just simplified versions of games I already know and will soon get tired of the graphics.

Soul Calibur VI is actually done by a completely different developer (the Tekken team) and has more depth than previous entries as a result. It's a team that actually understands depth and fighting mechanics. Stating it's simplified when it's more complex is you spit-balling.

New Resident Evil could be more simplified, could also not. It's not even released yet, this goes back to my argument that you have little knowledge in your own ideology.

NieR: Automata is also from a different developer with a better reputation over NieR and Drakengard. Platinum Games are one of the best developers in the industry and far better than what made prior entries. I would argue Automata has more layers than the Drakengard trilogy and Nier.

Here are two games. Divinity Original Sin II and Monster Hunter: World (would recommend 4G but it's 3DS only). Deep, rewarding, complex, but enjoyable in the mechanics and both have layers. What's your reason for overlooking them? They've been well received?

Honestly looking at your list above, some of those are really streamlined. I 100% agree, but also seems you grouped a list of games you're pretty ignorant about, because you favor games from an older generation. Which is fine, but if you don't know any better, why spread false information?

Avatar image for jackamomo
#13 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: Mech's aren't real RSM.

I think you just openly called MechWarrior the only good mech games

Pretty sure I didn't.

They were supposed to be like Elite kind of games with the feelings of large scale being the emphasis, hence the heavy physics and slow movement speed.

Mechwarrior 2 was very popular when it came out. It has one of the best soundtracks ever in a game and the production values in the menus are insane. If you can buy the original DOS version on GOG I would highly recommend it.

The Mechs in Armoured Core would be considered a mech suit in Mechwarrior universe.

Considering the Atlas mechs stand as tall as skyscrapers the physics do make sense in that universe.

Mechwarrior is awesome. It's about battling dynasties and companies and mercenaries all charging about in giant mechs the size of buildings. What's not to love?

The reason Mechwarrior Online fails to be a good Mechwarrior game is because the physics are too quick. Mechs no longer feel heavy to control. The gameplay is moved away from the flight sim and into the arcade arena shooter and you lose what Mechwarrior was about which is long range tactics and maneuvering your vehicle into position, using the landscape like in World of tanks, having to retreat to a lower inclination in the ground to protect your mech if there's no cover for instance.

The best new Mechwarrior game still being played is the Crysis mod Mechwarrior Living Legends but they couldn't get the legs and feet to match the ground like in 2-4.

PS. Did you like World of Tanks RSM?

This is Mechwarrior 2 and if you can't see how this is better than Armoured Core then we have nothing more to speak about.

Loading Video...

Avatar image for tylerlynch
#14 Edited by TylerLynch (3 posts) -

@jackamomo said:

"You're a retro gamer, which is cool" - some a-hole last week

Because game design, quite simply hasn't moved on since 2002.

People don't buy the latest game consoles because they want new games, they buy them just so they can admire the graphics and play all the games that already exist, but with better graphics.

The thing is. When you get to about 30 you really stop caring unless you are some sort of technophile.

The games however have simply got worse. To play. The reason is game design based on graphics>gameplay.

Take NHL2K series. The best version is 2K2. Why? Because if your masochistic enough to try and actually play that game, you would play the 2K2 over 2K18 because, even though it's harder, they have not reduced the speed at which your character moves, in favour of animating that movement more smoothly, sacrificing quick movement, for a more smooth movement animation.

This prioritising of animation over a control's responsiveness extends into all action games, even down to making Mark of the Ninja the most boring game ever even though it got really good reviews and is kind of 'retro'.

Splinter Cell (PS2) plays differently to a new Tom Clancy game because there's practically no movement turn animation, basically changing the way the game play to how it does now, almost completely, from including a response/reaction game mechanic, to a more pre-emting and timing control scheme to account for animations whilst controlling your character.

Also, game design has not move forward with the re-release of Thief, being an example of how modern game design has taken away alot of the freedom of playing games, in favour of setting you in a kind of interactive story which puts training wheels on (mandatory tutorials :'( ) and fences you in. You can only use your grappling hook on predetermined places is weak sauce.

Take the J-RPG, a dying genre. J-RPG being giant headed, blue haired and gaint eyes people wader around town talking to everyone to figure out what to do next and fight monsters along the way and level up. Well that hasn't moved forward for 20 years if Square Enix's Final Fantasy series is anything to go by.

The last good game if this type is Phantasy Star Online, which mixed true controlled characters, with group online play and arcade style, hit-box-based combat system in the style of Diablo. There is lock on, but after I watched it being played I finally realised you can change your weapon mid fight and cast aoe spells, hence making where you're standing or facing, a key mechanic of the gameplay and also how World of Warcraft basically took PSO and put orcs and wizards in instead of JRPG blue haired people. But WoW doesn't even have as deep aoe weapon mechanics and hit boxes as sophisticated.

The Phantasy Star series on the Mega Drive dates the progression of that genre quite well. The Master System version was released unchanged on the Mega Drive (so you could catch up I suppose if you didn't have a MS).

Phantasy Star II is what you would expect with better graphics and sound but sadly lost the 3d dungeons (Yuji Naka was away) but it all looks nicer and is more expansive than the first although loses the planet travelling until halfway through.

Phantasy Star III introduced branching timelines, more attractive pixel art style (thanks to the Golden Axe team) and a stellar and memorable haunting soundtrack. PS3 introduced a new mechanic in fights, in splitting enemies into four areas: front back left and right. Also, a reactive in-fight soundtrack changes depending on how the fight is going - from tense to triumphant as you win but it does get a bit repetitive.

You can fully automate the battle, attacking the front row first then the larger back row enemies, just automate one move for each member, using their primary weapons (up to two) attacking either a row, column or individual enemy, depending on the equipped weapon, then just press it again until you've won. Or select actions for each character, including defending party members or buffing them with item and techniques. So each battle can be completed with just 2 button presses.

The technique mechanic is different in that all techniques use a set amount of technique points and only differing in power by level of the caster and setting the spell priorities of the 4 available within each spell 'technique': 'heal', 'time' (debuff enemies), 'melee' (attack) or 'order' (buff allies) in special 'shield' sign buildings in towns. It's a shame you have almost no reason whatsoever to use anything but gires and carry antidotes.

The backs of the characters are dropped in battle, giving way to the first person view used in the first game but with attacks animated in large effects like claws marks or bullet holes, and with simple scrolling parallax backgrounds.

Phantasy Star 4 came out and dropped branching storylines (brides to marry) in return to linear narrative and lost the (in my opinion superior) pixel artists of the PS3 team but had access to 24MB of storage to include a longer story. Also it included an attack fight macro system and icons make it actually possible to remember what the spells do.

But sequels in those days did tend to sometimes try to change something about the game rather than depend on a superior set of technologies, in graphical processing capabilities.

Shining Force 1 - 4 are very notable here as they very much popularised the j-rpg strategy genre and remain my favourites. With each episode changing how the game played in subtle ways, or compromises, in lieu of actually more advanced hardware, as in the PC market, to depend on.

PS: I would like to change an earlier statement I made about Sonic Spinball being the best SMD pinball game when it is Dragon's Fury by Technosoft as Spinball was not programmed in machine code but hastily ported in C hence it has an unacceptably bad frame rate and is actually boring and a bad game.

PPS. I take no pleasure and no enjoyment of slowly turning a woman into a lizard by destroying her brain with a giant ball bearing. Technosoft... You weirdos.

I agree, You mentioned here many possible points that could be reason of Retro Gamers Exist.

Avatar image for johndmgs
#15 Posted by Johndmgs (316 posts) -

@RSM-HQ said:

I play new and old games, on both ends have duds and masterpieces. So while some here have called me a Retro Gamer, I prefer to call myself just a Gamer. I'm not the sort that thinks all old games are outdated and outclassed. However I'm not a nostalgic fool who dismisses new games either, and what they bring into the hobby in creative and replayable ways.

Because game design, quite simply hasn't moved on since 2002.

Case and point. @jackamomo I recall having a MechWarrior and Armored Core discussion with you (I've played both series and recall MW handling like garbage). And despite having no experience in AC you instantly dismissed the series after an exceedingly brief montage video of the entire series on Youtube.

I think you take too much of modern gaming from viewing glimpses and not ever playing the games themselves, you've got to the point you only like to play what you grew with and dismiss anything that's remotely modern.

So stating game design not moving since 2002, is you refusing anything past 2002. Call it a state of denial if you will. Plenty here in the forums could tell you a range of games in the past seventeen years that took game design in a different and interesting direction, yet with a dismissive attitude, it falls on deaf ears.

So unless you be a bit more open minded I don't really see the purpose of this being a thread on GD, may as well have been a blog entry.

100% agreed with this. I'll sometimes revisit old classics but I play plenty of new games too.

Avatar image for RSM-HQ
#16 Posted by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@jackamomo said:

@RSM-HQ: Mech's aren't real RSM.

Loading Video...

That's one example, also simulators never need to be based on current constructions, but follow realistic laws of physics and systems for function. Elite is considered a Space Simulator and you don't see anyone flying around as a cargo pirate ship do you?

Pretty sure I didn't

It's pretty late here (really need sleep) so I really can't be bothered digging up necro-threads; so for the sake or resolving. I'll just assume you are correct. Probably just wanted to praise Armored Core and Metal Wolf Chaos like the fanboi I am.

They were supposed to be like Elite kind of games with the feelings of large scale being the emphasis, hence the heavy physics and slow movement speed.

Love Elite ever since I got a hold of my parents old systems. Elite III is something I sunk many hours in and even backed Elite: Dangerous and spend hundreds of hours in the Beta, can confirm MechWarrior plays little like it, has similar features for preparation but execution is extremely different. Elite handles like a dream, MW, from my experience has poor controls.

The best new Mechwarrior game still being played is the Crysis mod Mechwarrior Living Legends but they couldn't get the legs and feet to match the ground like in 2-4.

Admittedly I don;t think I've played those, and mod'less, I'm a strong believer that if a game can't stand on itself without mods why should I waste time enhancing the experience? MWIII is the one I spent the most time with. And the original.

PS. Did you like World of Tanks RSM?

At this time sunk just over 43 hours into the BlitZ version. I love a good small team versus small team kind of game. It's a side experience outside my active Quake: Champions sessions.

Wish BlitZ had more maps, but what is available is pretty solid and maps for the most part have serviceable level design for a F2P game. I've come across a few teams which have got some clear exploit tactics that remove a sense of balance and had one hacker team instant win a match as it loaded-in, which damaged the experience a little.

Some that I've talked with also stated BlitZ had more content before the 5.5 update. And they're not happy with it currently. I'm new so have less an issue with that.

Avatar image for jackamomo
#17 Posted by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: I’m glad you like World if Tanks Blitz. Wargaming are a great company and have good customer service and are good programmers.

You should rethink your philosophy on kids. Day Z was a mod DoTA was a mod, tower defence (both Warcraft 3). Living Legends really just uses the Crysis 1 graphics engine as it’s free and made it into a really good of a bit slow at times strategic mech game. It’s quite complicated how they’ve set it up. It’s not easy to get running either. MWO would still be better for most people if they want an online Mech experience.

I meant the tone of the Mechwarrior games was similar to Elite/Wing Commander. Set in space and industrial technology world thing.

Mechwarrior 2 isn’t available to buy these days but if you can get it running high res is probably the best single player mech game ever made. It would be a bit of a project to get it running though.

Avatar image for RSM-HQ
#18 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@jackamomo: Just to clarify, I really like mods in games. Bare Knuckle Remake I heavily consider one of the greatest Beat em' Ups of all time and is essentially a group of people who worked on a ten year mod.

Morrowind is another example, I consider Overhaul 3.0 the essential way to play that game.

However. Just as you mentioned Defence of the Ancients coming from Warcraft 3. It still plays like Warcraft 3, and you won't find many argue that case.

Let's state a game is like a canvas that has already been painted. Mods are someone touching it up or embellishing a different approach to the canvas. It's still the exact same picture, just heavily worked on ontop what was present.

MechWarrior and MW3, I just didn't like as games. So modding them is not something I would ever consider. The way it handled, the level design, it's pacing. I threw them aside like garbage, and wasn't the only early P.C. games I treated with such disregard.

Cannot speak for MW2, and maybe that was the real game all Gamers should base the franchise on for quality. And with this discussion I will look into the game, may even play it if it falls on GoG, and give personal impressions. It has peaked my interest if nothing else. And I do like Mechs. I do however find it odd that you are disregarding sequels above calling them "simplified versions", and in the ones I noted are certainly not. So why is MW2 really any different a case? Should I not just ignore it because I've played the one before and the one after. By your own logic, that's how you view games right. That's what I mean with the be more open-minded case and point_

Anyway back to mods. It's also why I don't mod Monster Hunter: World on P.C. I'm already out. . Despite being a fantastic port for those who only play it like a Single-Player experience. The active Steam community for World is extremely toxic and hacker filled with MH, which is disappointing considering it was never like that prior. And MH is best played coop so this new audience who has never played a MH experience has to suffer through a lot of garbage thanks to jackasses. Plus I've seen player count is at an all time low so my assumption is many like me got sick with the troIIs and went back to PS4 as the sole platform for Monster Hunter: World.

Avatar image for jackamomo
#19 Posted by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: Let's state a game is like a canvas that has already been painted. Mods are someone touching it up or embellishing a different approach to the canvas. It's still the exact same picture, just heavily worked on ontop what was present.

It's probably true if the core game is bad the mod's probably are to. DayZ is a stealth game using the Arma engine because it has good mechanics for enemy line of site etc in relation to your position in the map so the zombie game was a natural fit and yes DotA is just controlling a hero around a map and about 5% as difficult as actually playing the rts itself but people find rts overwhelming as even does this seasoned rts vet.

Living Legend's uses the original cryengine to make mechs and cars and planes and programming in a whole new game so could more honestly be called a new game than a mod, if the tools you're using change the game as much as that.

The bare knuckle remake looks like a new game and couldn't be called a mod unless they use original Bare Knuckle code.

MW, from my experience has poor controls. MechWarrior and MW3, I just didn't like as games.

If your talking about Mechwarrior 1, then it was designed for 386 computers so you can't expect much.

Loading Video...

As for the control on M2-4 I think they all control really well with little input lag and easy to use control scheme. In MW2 you can turn your torso with the num pad or holding right mouse button and steer with wasd or set your own keys obviously.

There are subtle differences between 2 and 3 though. When zooming to aim MW2 zooms the whole screen in when 3 just has a small area enlarge over your reticle and MW4 has a much larger reticle zoom area. 2 has a full screen real time satellite map you can bring up when 3 you can only overlay radar targets or switch to geographic map which obscures the view.

MW3 introduces a free roaming reticle, making precise aiming very easy. Used at 11:35.

Loading Video...

MW4 takes away the free roaming reticle and locks it in the center, so turning the chassis is now needed for aiming as in MWO and the upcoming game.

Loading Video...

I was wondering, which platform do you play WoT BlitZ on? It's available over 7, which is impressive I think for Wargaming.

Avatar image for RSM-HQ
#20 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@jackamomo: I played World of Tanks on P.C. seems to benefit from a mouse and keyboard set-up. Many on the community page was really helpful getting me learning the basics. I have a DeathAdder mouse which is pretty good for P.C. gaming. I was hoping for it being on GoG but it's Steam which is disappointing, I don't like supporting DRM or Valve for that matter. But whatever.

And while you pointed out some huge differences with those MechWarrior games. I'm sure someone who really likes breaking down fighting games could do something similar explaining Soul Calibur VI to previous games done by a completely different developer (I certainly notice VI handles way different and for the better). It's nice you have experience with your loved series, but that doesn't mean other franchises do not take risks or experiment either.

You cannot simply single out what you do not know. I mean. . you can, but it's flawed information.

The bare knuckle remake looks like a new game and couldn't be called a mod unless they use original Bare Knuckle code.

It started as a mod but did end up having a lot of original code, music and sprite work. SEGA did however file a cease and desist because BKR did in fact use code from all three BK Games. I feel bad for Bomber Games because it is a great tribute to Beat em' Ups. I still have it while it during the brief time it was open and keep it on my HDD. If SEGA worked with the team, and sold it, I would gladly buy that work of art. But instead I'll play it for free, while SEGA be idiots and shun it.

With that I hope Bare Knuckle 4 goes well.

Avatar image for Ish_basic
#21 Posted by Ish_basic (4918 posts) -

i look at the industry as a subway train. It barrels on, but at some point, I'm going to want to get off. As far as single player games go, I find myself wanting to get off sometime in 2006ish or 8ish, before everything became open world. They haven't really changed that much since GTA3 in 2001 and nobody has figured out how to preserve pacing in these games. I simply don't need the busy work of all of these monotonous side activities I'm supposed to be entertained by.

I would rather have a loading screen than spend minutes riding across nothing to the next objective. I mean, imagine The Dark Knight, that scene where the joker tells Batman that Harvey and his girl are being held at various locations and he needs to race to get there....and then the next 10 minutes was a prolonged scene of Commissioner Gordon, in a car, navigating New York traffic. You would yell at the screen. But this is open world pacing. And then, when you get there the enemies are unceremoniously dropped into the area with AI that only paths through the environment as if it's background rather than battlefield. If that was the state of AI in an FPS, you'd yell at the screen. But enemy scripting and level design simply aren't important in open world games. Shooting mechanics? Who cares? Look at all the pointless things you can do! and Horse Balls! Best.game.ever. Open world games are like laser lights, and we're finding out how many gamers are actually cats irl. So get me off; I missed my stop awhile ago.

Multiplayer games are getting more fun, though.

Avatar image for jackamomo
#22 Posted by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: I don't like supporting DRM or Valve for that matter. But whatever.

What's wrong with Steam or Valve?

Steam is how you get pc games now and a good platform if a bit buggy and Valve are a privately run company so don't have corporate interference and treat their staff and customers very well and make quality products unless it's just another card game.

It's nice you have experience with your loved series, but that doesn't mean other franchises do not take risks or experiment either.

I'm not sure exactly where I said that.

Bare Knuckle uses stolen Sega code to make a new game. That's not a mod, it's called a hack.

I look at that game and it looked pointless. They hadn't even added levels.

Avatar image for qx0d
#23 Posted by qx0d (142 posts) -

Most games I play aren't new. They mostly range from the earlier 2000's to the 90's, even the 80's. These eras are simply when many of my favorites were made.

I play Unreal Tournament online still... and I'm pretty sure that would qualify as "retro." I sometimes play Half-Life. I play the original Halo sometimes. Many games around these eras, I still play.

Check out Atari Vault. Check out SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics on Steam. Sega Genesis Classics is available on Xbox One, PS4 and Switch. These retro games are so awesome, some of the best things you can play.

Avatar image for RSM-HQ
#24 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@jackamomo said:

What's wrong with Steam or Valve?

I've had this conversation too many times. Let's keep on track with your views, and rants on games.

not sure exactly where I said that.

"These are all just simplified versions of games I already know and will soon get tired of the graphics."

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a statement of claiming games are all the same but more steamlined with better graphics yes? And while I know for two of those games is untrue. This is what you stated in the quotation.

By this ideology if I followed your example should ignore how different MW2 is with all your information above; and just call MW2 a shallow streamlined shell of the MechWarrior original. All it has is better graphics. . . See what I'm getting at?

Bare Knuckle uses stolen Sega code to make a new game. That's not a mod, it's called a hack.

I look at that game and it looked pointless. They hadn't even added levels.

Actually most people call them fan games which are heavily modded. Mod is short for modification, not sure if you know that. If you want to call it a "hack" that's your choice. It's wrong, but so is a lot in this thread, and a choice to ignore is rapidly common I've noticed.

Also levels are added, try playing it sometime (which you should do before making huge blogs why games stink anyhow). Usually gives an opinion about games more weight

You can't name a single SEGA BK game with the above level or boss can you?

This is going back to why my first post in this thread holds relevance and weight. You have a very dismissive attitude on games you know little about, and throw odd comments that contradict the games you claim are "steamlined", "shallow" and bad games design.

One thing I do know with certainty is some of the games you've gone on record disclaiming have superior control's responsiveness and fluidity than the MechWarrior games I've played, more precise than World of Tanks as well if I'm fairly honest (still good game). Though I get the impression WoT is suppose to feel a little clunky because they're tanks. Bloodborne for example is all about being a tight well controlled game, and while I prefer the Soul games (From Software is commonly great at this I suppose), it's far better than quite a few of the games you give noticeable praise that I myself have played also. Rime and Mark of the Ninja do not represent all modern games despite what you may think_

But this is going in an endless loop so will reiterate. OP should have been a blog. You for the most part just wanted to praise about the good ol' days. And that's fine. but your blissful ignorance on many of these modern games is very apparent.

Avatar image for jackamomo
#25 Posted by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ:

"These are all just simplified versions of games I already know and will soon get tired of the graphics."

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is a statement of claiming games are all the same but more steamlined with better graphics yes? And while I know for two of those games is untrue. This is what you stated in the quotation.

No, just the games listed above that statement from the ps4 top 40 library.

By this ideology if I followed your example should ignore how different MW2 is with all your information above; and just call MW2 a shallow streamlined shell of the MechWarrior original. All it has is better graphics. . . See what I'm getting at?

No I'm not saying regression is inevitable just that it often happens in the name of chasing a more popular or lower common denominator.

You for the most part just wanted to praise about the good ol' days. And that's fine. but your blissful ignorance on many of these modern games is very apparent.

I'm not bothered when a game was made. You think I'm romanticising the 'good old days' but I'm being really strict in how I judge. Bloodborne and Dark Soul do have responsive controls with very fast and reactive animations allowing you a good deal of control.

But they do still kind of revert to using large attack ranges as in God of War with use of animations to finish, slowing down the action again.

The problem was the popularity of the Batman Arkham games and it's easy fight mechanic. Dark Souls and Bloodborne actually play quite slowly for the most part and alot of it is walking along to look at scenery which is boring.

This video here is 18 minutes long. Gameplay is at 6:30. He is explaining my point almost exactly about Mechwarrior games.

Loading Video...