Why is it that Zelda TP Isn't Doing Well in Japan

There have been many discussions over the past year dealing with the Japanese market versus the American one, and the Japanese market has been constantly referred to as the one that favors longrunning series or franchises, repetition or nostalgia, and linear story driven gameplay. Zelda TP is game that is part of a long running franchise, it captures the feel of older Zelda games, and has story driven gameplay (although its nots too linear). The fact that Zelda TP didn't do so well in Japan, makes me think that Okami may not have done much better if it had been part of a longrunning franchise, and these are two games that received wide critical acclaim. I'm pretty much stomped by this question, so I'll ask you, why is it that Zelda TP didn't do so well in Japan. The easy way out is to say that the ending of the game was horrible, but most gamers would not know about the ending before buying out.

This question was spurred by this article, but may give some hints to my own bias, LINK

Apparently the Japanese only likes mini games now :P

Apparently the Japanese only likes mini games now :P

yomi_basic

you joke, but the thought of that scares me 

[QUOTE="yomi_basic"]

Apparently the Japanese only likes mini games now :P

HiResDes

you joke, but the thought of that scares me

 Onto the topic of TP not doing so hot in Japan, I think it may come from the fact that TP was crafted for the western gamer in mind.  Aonuma commented on this at his GDC presentation. He had said that Nintendo had noticed that the sale of the Zelda franchise was always higher in the west. Even with the big change that was Wind Waker, the game still had a higher rate of sale in the west, so the next console Zelda was made with the Western gamer's wants(i.e. a more realistic Zelda) in mind.  That may have proved to be the reason for it not selling in Japan.

[QUOTE="yomi_basic"]

Apparently the Japanese only likes mini games now :P

HiResDes

you joke, but the thought of that scares me 

You and me both. I can't really think of the last non mini-game type game that sold like Gangusters in Japan (Final Fantasy?)

No the Japanese still like gamer games.

See.

Now tell me what do you notice about that list?

They are all handheld games.

Unlike the West the Japanese see their handhelds as primary's.  They are their main gaming systems, while consoles have been sitting in the corner. It's similar to the West how consoles are their primary gaming consoles while their handhelds take a back seat. The Wii is very hard to find in Japan *as of everywhere else* and those gamers that brought one are to busy playing their hardcore games on the DS and just use the Wii for Wii Sports or something similar as kind of a "break" from their form of gaming. While other hardcore gamers are happy with thier DS or PSP and just don't want to spend money on it. I mean tell me how many games do you buy for your handheld compared to your console? Exactly. It's not that they don't like Zelda or other gamer games *Final Fantasy taking up the top 2 and Phoenix Wright high sales disagree* it's just that they prefer handhelds to consoles. Also come to think of it, it is actually somewhat right that their are less hardcore gamers there. Yes while GAMING is at an all-time high in Japan HARDCORE gaming is at an all-time low, especially since many genres *Tradition JRPG's, Fighting, etc.* are being replaced by new genres *Experimental JRPG's, Adventure Games, Creative Games, etc.* so I'm not surpised that so many may have fled *though this is what I think has happened, referring to their fleeings*. Though I given 2 to 3 more years we should see a massive spike in hardcore gaming again, I mean with all these new gamers I'm sure some will turn out to find desire. This is pretty much what Nintendo is doing in Japan, America, and all over the world. They're taking the old form of gaming demolishing it and setting up a new *which is the reason why they became so popular in the first place*. 

So all in all the reasons why the game didn't sell are.

#1 Japanese gamers prefer handhelds to consoles

#2 Shortages/To busy with their games

#3 The hardcore market is shrinking

#4 The current taste in the Japanese market is "new" or "different" games not those they've played before. 

I liked TP's ending:(

Anyway, I think it's because Zelda isn't exactly the kind of game that japanese gamers appreciate. That might sound crazy, but that's the way it is. My guess is that, to them, the game may feel like it lacks depth. They probably like games that focus on one or two things and do them exceedingly well. Zelda, on the other hand, does a lot of different things. The games contain puzzle-solving, action, very light rpg elements, exploration, and storytelling. I think it leads to japanese gamers feeling that the game is "quirky" rather than hardcore, while Americans feel the exact opposite.

Of course, that's just my guess. Zelda still rocks no matter how popular it is in Japan:P

The japanese people like things... in small packages (Handhelds)

I mean Gundam Musou? Naruto games?? MORE STUPID MINI-GAMES?!!!??

In my moment of rant talk I have made up this conlusion, The japanese market (as of now) like things that are repetitve and simple.

The japanese people like things... in small packages (Handhelds)

I mean Gundam Musou? Naruto games?? MORE STUPID MINI-GAMES?!!!??

In my moment of rant talk I have made up this conlusion, The japanese market (as of now) like things that are repetitve and simple.

lightgamet

America isn't that much different when it comes with license crap.

Actually I looked it up and we're actually worse.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4691&Itemid=50&limit=1&limitstart=1

And it's not really the gamers that buy those games it's more so the adults and casuals. Same with the U.S. charts, it really isn't the gamers that go out and buy Madden and Spiderman.

As for the mini-games comment, there aren't actually many there, the current trend in the Japanese market are Adventure games and Strategy RPG's.

I liked TP's ending:(

Anyway, I think it's because Zelda isn't exactly the kind of game that japanese gamers appreciate. That might sound crazy, but that's the way it is. My guess is that, to them, the game may feel like it lacks depth. They probably like games that focus on one or two things and do them exceedingly well. Zelda, on the other hand, does a lot of different things. The games contain puzzle-solving, action, very light rpg elements, exploration, and storytelling. I think it leads to japanese gamers feeling that the game is "quirky" rather than hardcore, while Americans feel the exact opposite.

Of course, that's just my guess. Zelda still rocks no matter how popular it is in Japan:P

AquaMantor

Agreed, this is due to the fact of how the Japanese see games.

From what I've seen the Japanese prefer videogames to be just that, games their games are usually based on fun, much skill *as you said the Japanese like it when games focus on one or two things so they can master it* and creativity. Westerners mostly see games as an interactive medium. They usually concentrate with making you FEEL like you're in the game and part of the gaming world. For example WoW and Oblivion both take you to another world and you're part of it that you're in the world. Other games such as Ghost Recon give you more choices such as how to dispose of enemies and areas you can travel. This also explains why most companies in the industry mostly talk about adding physics, improving A.I., making bigger maps and more detailed worlds. What we think of when we play a Japanese game saying "This is too different or this is too linear" the Japanese probably *judging from game sales* think and say about Western games "What an borefest get to the point or why does it take so long just to do a simple task?" This is where I think some people say things like "The Japanese why of gaming is shallow and contains no depth compared to Western games" *which isn't at all true* or "All Western games are about is running around in and shooting enemies in the head" *which isn't at all true either*

To be honest, it's all about preference. No way of gaming is superior to the other, it's all about taste and what you look for in a game. I for one feel that the Japanese way of gaming far supeirior to the Western way of gaming, but that's just my opinion.

*NOTE: Did I over generalize this post? Yes, but I'm just trying to get my point across here :)*

Because they are too busy playing Super Muffin Funtastic Roody Poo Snuggly Animal Simulator 17. I here its leaps and bounds over 16. !GodModeEnabled

There are also a fair amount of animal simulators in the West, and being that Nintendogs sold more copies in the U.S. then in Japan and it's currently the highest selling DS game in Europe..

[QUOTE="GodModeEnabled"]Because they are too busy playing Super Muffin Funtastic Roody Poo Snuggly Animal Simulator 17. I here its leaps and bounds over 16. !Dencore

There are also a fair amount of animal simulators in the West, and being that Nintendogs sold more copies in the U.S. then in Japan and it's currently the highest selling DS game in Europe..

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

[QUOTE="GodModeEnabled"]Because they are too busy playing Super Muffin Funtastic Roody Poo Snuggly Animal Simulator 17. I here its leaps and bounds over 16. !GodModeEnabled

There are also a fair amount of animal simulators in the West, and being that Nintendogs sold more copies in the U.S. then in Japan and it's currently the highest selling DS game in Europe..

Why Nintendogs is just as innovative, and it's better then Madden or G's, Hoe's, Pimp's and Thugs 7 outselling them. 

And I know, just trying to keep you informed. :P 

Actually, that's in perspective of what you call a genius game. To be honest, I believe that we need decidely LESS gory action epics like the ones you mentioned.AquaMantor

I personally just want gaming to have skill again. Ugh how I wish there were more fighting games, shoot-em-ups, and the hardaction genre *devil may cry, shinobi, ninja gaiden* would take off. 

Actually, that's in perspective of what you call a genius game. To be honest, I believe that we need decidely LESS gory action epics like the ones you mentioned.AquaMantor

^^^^^No offense but IMHO I see these games at least of quality or something new.

Also you really have to think of what was popular before this point *actually still is but probably change*

The majority of the games were sports and licenses .

And if you take a look at that list most of the top selling games are just that.

And also judging by the industry it seems that consoles like to "dumb-down" those games you're talking about then build on them. *Oblivion anyone?* And as for mature stories and themes the Japanese have been doing that for years upon years with their games. I think games like Suikoden, Wild Arms, Metal Gear Solid, and othersspeak for themself. Actually I find it a little arkward for you to say that since the Adventure genre is currently very popular in Japan, which from I last heard was a genre with a high amount of maturity and storytelling.

I don't know about you, but IMHO I'd much rather see Nintendogs take the #2 spot then Cars.

I'm inclined to think that the Japanese are confusing quirkiness with fun. At least, nowadays.

 

[QUOTE="HiResDes"][QUOTE="yomi_basic"]

Apparently the Japanese only likes mini games now :P

yomi_basic

you joke, but the thought of that scares me 

You and me both. I can't really think of the last non mini-game type game that sold like Gangusters in Japan (Final Fantasy?)

I feel that people are overeacting to Japanese sales and generalising that all portable games are mini-games. 

If you just look at the top 20 selling games as listed last week out of that top 20 these games were in there.  

Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings is not a mini-game collection.

Super Paper Mario  is not a mini-game collection.
Yoshi's Island DS is not a mini-game collection.
Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2:  is not a mini-game collection (unless all puzzle games are suddenly slurred with the term?)

New Super Mario Bros. is not a mini-game collection.

Phoenix Wright 4 is not a mini-game collection.

Mario Kart DS is not a mini-game collection.
Animal Crossing Wild World is not a mini-game collection.

Prof. Layton and the Mysterious Village is not a mini-game collection (unless all puzzle games are suddenly slurred with the term?)

Dragon Quest Monsters Joker (Square-Enix) is not a mini-game collection.
English Training (Nintendo) is not a mini-game collection.

^^^^Totally agreed it's just mindless stereotyping *similar to how everyone use to stereotype all the Japanese played were Turnbased JRPG's a couple of years ago*.

And as for the minigames it really isn't the gamers buying those games it's the adults. But even taking that into account this list is still pretty diverse.

http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php 

People also need to take account that most of the gamer games are below that list, it seems that people forget how much in turblance hardcore gaming is in Japan especially some years ago.

http://www.vgchartz.com/japweekly.php?date=38123

Software sales are 4 times higher then they were in 3 years ago.

Sure the Japanese industry is very casual now *as soon the Western market my also be* but with all those people getting into gaming, I'm sure many will become hardcore gamers, and the cycle will start all over again. 

[QUOTE="Dencore"]

[QUOTE="GodModeEnabled"]Because they are too busy playing Super Muffin Funtastic Roody Poo Snuggly Animal Simulator 17. I here its leaps and bounds over 16. !GodModeEnabled

There are also a fair amount of animal simulators in the West, and being that Nintendogs sold more copies in the U.S. then in Japan and it's currently the highest selling DS game in Europe..

I find a nice sweet taste in my mouth. It's nice to see the market casual market finally stumped by something that seems as stupid to them as their tastes are to me. Mwahaha. 

[QUOTE="AquaMantor"]Actually, that's in perspective of what you call a genius game. To be honest, I believe that we need decidely LESS gory action epics like the ones you mentioned.GodModeEnabled

Isn't any kind of mainstreaming still mainstreaming? Perhaps the problem (and it could be given how well Nintendo is doing right now) is that the industry slumped into a phase were it took itself far too seriously.  

[QUOTE="GodModeEnabled"][QUOTE="AquaMantor"]Actually, that's in perspective of what you call a genius game. To be honest, I believe that we need decidely LESS gory action epics like the ones you mentioned.Articuno76

Isn't any kind of mainstreaming still mainstreaming? Perhaps the problem (and it could be given how well Nintendo is doing right now) is that the industry slumped into a phase were it took itself far too seriously.  

[QUOTE="yomi_basic"] 

[QUOTE="HiResDes"][QUOTE="yomi_basic"]

Apparently the Japanese only likes mini games now :P

gaminggeek

you joke, but the thought of that scares me 

You and me both. I can't really think of the last non mini-game type game that sold like Gangusters in Japan (Final Fantasy?)

I feel that people are overeacting to Japanese sales and generalising that all portable games are mini-games. 

If you just look at the top 20 selling games as listed last week out of that top 20 these games were in there.  

Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings is not a mini-game collection.

Super Paper Mario  is not a mini-game collection.
Yoshi's Island DS is not a mini-game collection.
Mario vs. Donkey Kong 2:  is not a mini-game collection (unless all puzzle games are suddenly slurred with the term?)

New Super Mario Bros. is not a mini-game collection.

Phoenix Wright 4 is not a mini-game collection.

Mario Kart DS is not a mini-game collection.
Animal Crossing Wild World is not a mini-game collection.

Prof. Layton and the Mysterious Village is not a mini-game collection (unless all puzzle games are suddenly slurred with the term?)

Dragon Quest Monsters Joker (Square-Enix) is not a mini-game collection.
English Training (Nintendo) is not a mini-game collection.

Obviously we're kidding just a bit here but you have to admit that the games you mention are much more simple in nature than what has been popular here. Most of those games have only the basic trappings of a story (if they have one at all) and are based on fairly simple time tested gameplay mechanics.

Many of the games you mention are also easy to play in quick doses.

Obviously we're kidding just a bit here but you have to admit that the games you mention are much more simple in nature than what has been popular here. Most of those games have only the basic trappings of a story (if they have one at all) and are based on fairly simple time tested gameplay mechanics.

Many of the games you mention are also easy to play in quick doses.

yomi_basic

I think that Japan has seen a market shift to portables for the time being at least. To understand it you have to have some context of the japanese market, said to be flagging for many a year. With PS3 and Wii delayed, they had nothing but handhelds to plug the gaps and revitalise the market. Or keep buying PS2 games, whose releases scaled down as developers switched resources to PS3/Wii and 360 even.

Now the DS has essentially sold more in japan than the gba lifetime total. Iwata called it a social phenomena, the theory that DS is selling to the same gba audience has (in Japan at least) been totally shattered because of it.

Games that are easy to play in short doses are symptomatic of handheld consoles, you need to be able to stop and start, save whenever you want and shut down the system. It doesn't neccesarily mean that a game is less complex. For the system these games are on and in the st-yle their in (2-D mostly) they are indeed full blown games and for me don't fall into mini-game category at all. I know we talk in broad strokes most of the time in relation to trends but if you actually take the time to look at individual titles in the DS or even Wii library, not many could be penned in as mini-games.

With the games I mentioned that were listed in Japan's top 20 we had full blown RPGs, 2-D platformers, racing games, educational software, a graphic adventure, puzzle games and an online life-sim. In japan, for years now you could find titles that puzzled us westerners, dating games, horse racing simulators, gambling and cookery games, anime tie-ins. These things aren't anything new. Games like Katamari in the past would have been bizaare to our tastes.

Then you have to look at what japanese developers are making or have already released in regard to the games you want or expect recentely: Dead Rising, Ninety Nine Knights and Lost planet, DMC4, MGS 4, The Last Remanant, FFXIII, Mario Galaxy, Super Smash Brothers, Okami, Fire Emblem, Blue Dragon, Lost Oddysey, Shadow of Colossus, Umbrella chronicles, Barboros Treasure and many more that I probably don't know about or can't remeber off the top of my head.  

[QUOTE="Articuno76"]

[QUOTE="GodModeEnabled"][QUOTE="AquaMantor"]Actually, that's in perspective of what you call a genius game. To be honest, I believe that we need decidely LESS gory action epics like the ones you mentioned.GodModeEnabled

Isn't any kind of mainstreaming still mainstreaming? Perhaps the problem (and it could be given how well Nintendo is doing right now) is that the industry slumped into a phase were it took itself far too seriously.

TBH I've been there and done that. The industry IMO took a turn that I didn't favor back when the PS came to prominence so the feeling of being a niche group is hardly new.

 Though to reiterate a point Skylock is always making, as long as your type of games still pull in respectable figures you won't see them decline, rather you'll simply see a rise in lite-games.