Why From software make dark souls too hard for casual gamers ?

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Zensword

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#1 Zensword
Member since 2007 • 4509 Posts
Everyone 's talking about Demons's Souls and Dark Souls but their difficulty scare me away. I'm wondering why dont they make it more accessible for players who often/always play games on easy so that more people can enjoy their games and they make more $$$ ?
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Maroxad

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#2 Maroxad
Member since 2007 • 21035 Posts

3 things

  1. Not every game needs to sell millions to make a profit.
  2. Demons Souls and most likely Dark Souls need to be difficult as this adds to the atmosphere, and to please the fans of their older games like King's Field.
  3. Demons Souls wasnt even hard at all if you spent some points on Vitality and knew how to avoid attacks. I cant comment for Dark Souls yet however, but I have a feeling it wont be much "harder". Demons Souls was one of the easiest games I have played this gen.
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Zensword

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#3 Zensword
Member since 2007 • 4509 Posts

3 things

  1. Not every game needs to sell millions to make a profit.
  2. Demons Souls and most likely Dark Souls need to be difficult as this adds to the atmosphere, and to please the fans of their older games like King's Field.
  3. Demons Souls wasnt even hard at all if you spent some points on Vitality and knew how to avoid attacks. I cant comment for Dark Souls yet however, but I have a feeling it wont be much "harder". Demons Souls was one of the easiest games I have played this gen.
Maroxad
2. I undestand that many players want it to be hard but how about easy difficulty for people whodont have skill or patience ? Everyone would be happy.
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DJ_Lae

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#4 DJ_Lae
Member since 2002 • 42748 Posts
It's part of the game's appeal, I suppose. I dunno. It's only hard in the sense that you have no idea what's coming up in any given level (on your first playthrough, anyway) and getting hit by an enemy does a ridiculous amount of damage. Once you get the hang of it, it's really not as hard as everyone says - beating the game basically just requires you to figure out how to take advantage of spamming attacks and glitches, particularly with some of the bosses.
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LoG-Sacrament

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#5 LoG-Sacrament
Member since 2006 • 20397 Posts
for demon's souls, you really have to die to get a full sense of the game. even then, from software maintains the position (and i agree) that most players can beat the game as long as they figure out what to do. if one thing doesnt work then change your strategy. i kept banging my head against the wall trying to beat the flamelurker boss by equipping items that marginally increase the number of hits i can take. once i adapted to a more elusive strategy, i beat it. you just cant keep beating your head against the wall trying to do something that isnt working.
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King9999

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#6 King9999
Member since 2002 • 11837 Posts

The challenge is one of the selling points of Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. The easy mode is the messages that players leave to warn other players, as well as the bloodstains that tell you how other players died. Also, the ability to join other players' worlds can help you figure things out.

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Treflis

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#7 Treflis
Member since 2004 • 13757 Posts
Because games nowadays are majorily easy, so it's nice to get a game that offers a real challenge for a change.
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mikeyMKII

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#8 mikeyMKII
Member since 2009 • 754 Posts

The "difficulty" is what draws in their fanbase. If it scares off casuals, too bad. Demon's Souls isn't even hard, but you have to fight smarter than a typical hack n' slash game.

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IndianaPwns39

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#9 IndianaPwns39
Member since 2008 • 5037 Posts

I think the opposite with Assassin's Creed. Why not add a difficulty to it to actually add a challenge?

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Moriarity_

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#10 Moriarity_
Member since 2011 • 1332 Posts
Except that demon's souls isn't that hard? On your first playthrough it'll be pretty tough but once you beat the game once you can beat again with little trouble. On the contrary why don't developers add some challenge to today's games that actually make you think for a few seconds instead of "attack enemy, retreat till health regenerates, attack enemy again, rinse and repeat"
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cdragon_88

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#11 cdragon_88
Member since 2003 • 1819 Posts

God no! I don't want to see another DA2. Dumb down everyting so that noobs of the game could get satisfied. The game is not impossible just challenging. Learn how to play it the way its meant to be played instead of trying to play it like a hack 'n slash.

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raven_squad

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#12 raven_squad
Member since 2007 • 78438 Posts
Not every game out there has to be a freakin' cake walk, nor does it have to pander to people who don't have the patience to play it the way it's meant to be played (because that's really all Demon's Souls requires).
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IcyToasters

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#13 IcyToasters
Member since 2007 • 12476 Posts

The difficulty of Demon's Souls / Dark Souls is fair. Your character dies, the majority of the time it's because you messed up.

Someone who is "casual" could have just as much fun with it as someone who is "hardcore".

... I hope the level design is better in Dark Souls though... That's pretty much my one complaint with Demon's Souls.

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edinsftw

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#14 edinsftw
Member since 2009 • 4243 Posts

[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

3 things

  1. Not every game needs to sell millions to make a profit.
  2. Demons Souls and most likely Dark Souls need to be difficult as this adds to the atmosphere, and to please the fans of their older games like King's Field.
  3. Demons Souls wasnt even hard at all if you spent some points on Vitality and knew how to avoid attacks. I cant comment for Dark Souls yet however, but I have a feeling it wont be much "harder". Demons Souls was one of the easiest games I have played this gen.

Zensword

2. I undestand that many players want it to be hard but how about easy difficulty for people whodont have skill or patience ? Everyone would be happy.

They had made a concious decision about it because then alot of people would play the easy mode, and that is the exact opposite of what the game is supposed to be.

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fl4tlined

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#15 fl4tlined
Member since 2007 • 4134 Posts
why do companies make games casual for core gamers? seriously its demographics
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Goods_Merchant

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#16 Goods_Merchant
Member since 2009 • 953 Posts

Not every game needs to cater to casual gamers, that would defeat the purpose of which Dark Souls stands for. From Software won't compromise the premise of the game just to get a little more money.

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Zensword

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#17 Zensword
Member since 2007 • 4509 Posts

God no! I don't want to see another DA2. Dumb down everyting so that noobs of the game could get satisfied. The game is not impossible just challenging. Learn how to play it the way its meant to be played instead of trying to play it like a hack 'n slash.

cdragon_88
I didnt ask them to "dumb down" the game. I'm just asking why dont they make the easy difficulty for people who lack skills/patience or who dont want too much challenge.
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deactivated-57e5de5e137a4

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#18 deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts
I understand why they are doing it, but I do kind of wish they had an easier setting. The frequent dying and fast enemies I can deal with, but losing an hour's progress because I couldn't get back to my bloodstain put me off of Demon's Souls.
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heytheredarlin

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#19 heytheredarlin
Member since 2010 • 869 Posts

3 things

  1. Not every game needs to sell millions to make a profit.
  2. Demons Souls and most likely Dark Souls need to be difficult as this adds to the atmosphere, and to please the fans of their older games like King's Field.
  3. Demons Souls wasnt even hard at all if you spent some points on Vitality and knew how to avoid attacks. I cant comment for Dark Souls yet however, but I have a feeling it wont be much "harder". Demons Souls was one of the easiest games I have played this gen.

Maroxad

Lol, c'mon dude. I agree the game isn't nearly as hard as people make it out to be but "one of the easiest games this gen"? Stupid thing to say.

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Jaysonguy

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#20 Jaysonguy
Member since 2006 • 39454 Posts

The games are stupidly easy, the whole "oh this is for advanced players" is nothing but crap trying to sell the game.

They're nothing more then memorization, the same way the first Super Mario Bros had you remember certain paths and enemies these games do the same thing, all they take is time to get the timing down and then they're a cakewalk.

Don't let the idea these games are hard steer you away from them, they're easy games to pick up and play and only need some time watching patterns before you'll be beating them with ease

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Zensword

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#21 Zensword
Member since 2007 • 4509 Posts

The games are stupidly easy, the whole "oh this is for advanced players" is nothing but crap trying to sell the game.

They're nothing more then memorization, the same way the first Super Mario Bros had you remember certain paths and enemies these games do the same thing, all they take is time to get the timing down and then they're a cakewalk.

Don't let the idea these games are hard steer you away from them, they're easy games to pick up and play and only need some time watching patterns before you'll be beating them with ease

Jaysonguy
Your post gives me some hope. But do you need fast reflex like in Ninja Gaiden games ? This is important to me since I'm an old guy (30+)
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Cow4ever

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#22 Cow4ever
Member since 2011 • 689 Posts

3 things

  1. Not every game needs to sell millions to make a profit.
  2. Demons Souls and most likely Dark Souls need to be difficult as this adds to the atmosphere, and to please the fans of their older games like King's Field.
  3. Demons Souls wasnt even hard at all if you spent some points on Vitality and knew how to avoid attacks. I cant comment for Dark Souls yet however, but I have a feeling it wont be much "harder". Demons Souls was one of the easiest games I have played this gen.

Maroxad

3. stop saying that, I think you're lying or played über defensive and careful

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Jaysonguy

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#23 Jaysonguy
Member since 2006 • 39454 Posts

[QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

The games are stupidly easy, the whole "oh this is for advanced players" is nothing but crap trying to sell the game.

They're nothing more then memorization, the same way the first Super Mario Bros had you remember certain paths and enemies these games do the same thing, all they take is time to get the timing down and then they're a cakewalk.

Don't let the idea these games are hard steer you away from them, they're easy games to pick up and play and only need some time watching patterns before you'll be beating them with ease

Zensword

Your post gives me some hope. But do you need fast reflex like in Ninja Gaiden games ? This is important to me since I'm an old guy (30+)

1. You're not old and

2. You have to do some moves quickly but after a while it becomes muscle memory and you'll get it, there's going to be a lot of trial and error and for some reason trial and error means "hard" in some circles, I don't get it.

You're going to see a bad guy, he's going to attack and he'll have one pose that means he's open, learn to look for it and when it comes up and bam, he's dead.

Same with walking around, there's some spots that if you run through you're going to get three things trying to kill you but if you go slow only one will come up at a time and you can dispatch them one by one.

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Bigboi500

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#24 Bigboi500
Member since 2007 • 35550 Posts

Demon's Souls wasn't hard IF: you had a good internet that allowed others to come and help you, and every time you logged into the servers the darker world tendencies would turn white again. If you couldn't get online it was very difficult because every time you died the world t just got continually darker. I hope Dark Souls implements a better difficulty system. If they fix that problem I might consider getting Dark Souls.

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Zensword

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#25 Zensword
Member since 2007 • 4509 Posts

[QUOTE="Zensword"][QUOTE="Jaysonguy"]

The games are stupidly easy, the whole "oh this is for advanced players" is nothing but crap trying to sell the game.

They're nothing more then memorization, the same way the first Super Mario Bros had you remember certain paths and enemies these games do the same thing, all they take is time to get the timing down and then they're a cakewalk.

Don't let the idea these games are hard steer you away from them, they're easy games to pick up and play and only need some time watching patterns before you'll be beating them with ease

Jaysonguy

Your post gives me some hope. But do you need fast reflex like in Ninja Gaiden games ? This is important to me since I'm an old guy (30+)

1. You're not old and

2. You have to do some moves quickly but after a while it becomes muscle memory and you'll get it, there's going to be a lot of trial and error and for some reason trial and error means "hard" in some circles, I don't get it.

You're going to see a bad guy, he's going to attack and he'll have one pose that means he's open, learn to look for it and when it comes up and bam, he's dead.

Same with walking around, there's some spots that if you run through you're going to get three things trying to kill you but if you go slow only one will come up at a time and you can dispatch them one by one.

Thanks.
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ShadowDeathX

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#26 ShadowDeathX
Member since 2006 • 11696 Posts
Like everyone has said, its not hard at all. Pretty simple in fact. The good thing about it, is that its fair game.
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Solid_Sterb

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#27 Solid_Sterb
Member since 2010 • 1703 Posts

They're nothing more then memorization, the same way the first Super Mario Bros had you remember certain paths and enemies these games do the same thing, all they take is time to get the timing down and then they're a cakewalk.

Jaysonguy

Exactly. Once I memorized enemy locations, Demon's Souls was a piece of cake.

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Piroshki

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#28 Piroshki
Member since 2011 • 242 Posts
I like Demons Souls as it was, but I find it beyond sad that so many gamers get offended at the idea of an optional lower difficulty option that would make the game more fun for more people. They call them options for a reason. I really can't understand how the game is somehow lessened because someone decided to play at an optional less challenging level in the same game you're playing. Options are nice, and it wouldn't compromise a thing. Taking the two seconds necessary to move the cursor to "hard mode" before you make your character shouldn't be viewed as a huge sacrifice. Just my two cents. The demonizing of people who don't want to deal with sadistic difficulty in games needs to stop.
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Shenmue_Jehuty

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#29 Shenmue_Jehuty
Member since 2007 • 5211 Posts

I personally love games that are hard by design, especially the ones that gradually reward you for playing more with increased skills and stats. I can't wait to play Dark Souls; it is going to eat me up and spit me out over and over again and I can't wait :D

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DJ_Lae

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#30 DJ_Lae
Member since 2002 • 42748 Posts
The good thing about it, is that its fair game.ShadowDeathX
Only once you've memorized the levels. When you're learning the layout, there's a ton of unfair moments in the monster closet vein, where you walk out of a door and there's an enemy immediately to one side of you.
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Metamania

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#31 Metamania
Member since 2002 • 12034 Posts

Since I've never played Demon's Souls at all, I wouldn't know myself how challenging it is, but that's the gist I got from other gamers; it was hard and you would die very quickly. But it also rewarded you if you were patient and stuck with it. I love that kind of concept; through hard work and perserverance comes all the rewards and benefits that come out of the game. Some people even call getting all the trophies in Demon's Souls one of their biggest accomplishments and I can understand that. Imagine how awesome it would be to play through that game and earn everything in Dark Souls. But yeah, I understand your frustration; you just want to enjoy it for yourself without having the difficulty be frustrating for you. But as some pointed out, the difficulty is one ofthe game's selling points and has enticed gamers to try it out AND praise the game for it. To make it accessible, in this case, would be a mistake.

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GodModeEnabled

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#32 GodModeEnabled
Member since 2005 • 15314 Posts
[QUOTE="ShadowDeathX"]The good thing about it, is that its fair game.DJ_Lae
Only once you've memorized the levels. When you're learning the layout, there's a ton of unfair moments in the monster closet vein, where you walk out of a door and there's an enemy immediately to one side of you.

Or running down a hallway for the first time stepping on a pressure plate and getting murdered in one hit from an arrow to the back. Or etc,etcetc,etc,et,eeTCETLE:gk,wlkm;m` o_0 Everyone here saying the game was easy may be on drugs.
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Metamania

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#33 Metamania
Member since 2002 • 12034 Posts

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"][QUOTE="ShadowDeathX"]The good thing about it, is that its fair game.GodModeEnabled
Only once you've memorized the levels. When you're learning the layout, there's a ton of unfair moments in the monster closet vein, where you walk out of a door and there's an enemy immediately to one side of you.

Or running down a hallway for the first time stepping on a pressure plate and getting murdered in one hit from an arrow to the back. Or etc,etcetc,etc,et,eeTCETLE:gk,wlkm;m` o_0 Everyone here saying the game was easy may be on drugs.

I think it's only easy after you go through the game a couple of times and know what to expect. On your first playthrough? Not a chance in hell it would be easy, since the game is fresh and you don't know what to expect...unless you decided to spoil yourself with videos of the gameplay in motion.

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rawsavon

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#34 rawsavon
Member since 2004 • 40001 Posts
Whenever there is 'hole/gap' to be filled in the marketplace, someone will step in to fill it... They saw just such an opportunity and took advantage
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koospetoors

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#35 koospetoors
Member since 2004 • 3715 Posts
They're not necessarily making it hard to keep casual gamers away, they're just targeting the more "hardcore" audience and I personally like that.
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Smokescreened84

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#36 Smokescreened84
Member since 2005 • 2565 Posts
I'm looking forward to the challenge, trial and error can be a more effective means of playing a game than by having your hand held like in most games these days. Being encourged to think, learn from your mistakes, develop strategies and have the sense of achivement of having gotten past a challenging area in a game, or a fully challenging game, can be quite the feeling of satisfaction. So much better than the usual hand holding FPS Military shooters that clog the industry.
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Piroshki

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#37 Piroshki
Member since 2011 • 242 Posts
Yes, unfairly killing me in a situation I could not possibly defend myself from and making me replay the whole level just to do that again a little past the last one is so much better. Trial and error is so awesome, why just look how it takes a short game and artificially bloats it's play time! Brilliant game design. I also feel SUCH a sense of achievement when I successfully memorize an entire level and pretend said memorization is an actual show of skill.
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almasdeathchild

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#38 almasdeathchild
Member since 2011 • 8922 Posts

a game that will be hard and be a challange?havent seen or heard this since ninja gaiden 2

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King9999

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#39 King9999
Member since 2002 • 11837 Posts

Yes, unfairly killing me in a situation I could not possibly defend myself from and making me replay the whole level just to do that again a little past the last one is so much better. Trial and error is so awesome, why just look how it takes a short game and artificially bloats it's play time! Brilliant game design. I also feel SUCH a sense of achievement when I successfully memorize an entire level and pretend said memorization is an actual show of skill.Piroshki

No need for hostility.

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Piroshki

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#40 Piroshki
Member since 2011 • 242 Posts

[QUOTE="Piroshki"]Yes, unfairly killing me in a situation I could not possibly defend myself from and making me replay the whole level just to do that again a little past the last one is so much better. Trial and error is so awesome, why just look how it takes a short game and artificially bloats it's play time! Brilliant game design. I also feel SUCH a sense of achievement when I successfully memorize an entire level and pretend said memorization is an actual show of skill.King9999

No need for hostility.

Not hostility, sarcasm. Different things. Trial and error is not good game design, and memorization is not skill.
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almasdeathchild

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#41 almasdeathchild
Member since 2011 • 8922 Posts

[QUOTE="King9999"]

[QUOTE="Piroshki"]Yes, unfairly killing me in a situation I could not possibly defend myself from and making me replay the whole level just to do that again a little past the last one is so much better. Trial and error is so awesome, why just look how it takes a short game and artificially bloats it's play time! Brilliant game design. I also feel SUCH a sense of achievement when I successfully memorize an entire level and pretend said memorization is an actual show of skill.Piroshki

No need for hostility.

Not hostility, sarcasm. Different things. Trial and error is not good game design, and memorization is not skill.

trial and error is not good game design you kidding me? it's not fun to just walk through everything trial and error helps you learn and get better at a task at hand. user friendly games are horrible

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Grammaton-Cleric

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#42 Grammaton-Cleric
Member since 2002 • 7515 Posts

I've been playing games for over thirty years and I simply didn't get much out of Demon's Souls. It's certainly a good game and I respect what it does but the incessant trial and error nature of the game demands a serious time investment that didn't appeal to me. You quite literally are forced to play and die, play and die until you've essentially learned every nuance of each level and I can understand entirely why that is frustrating for some people.

That understood, there is obviously a demographic that appreciates this manner of game and I really don't see the need to alter the integrity of a model that clearly works for the fanbase. The "Soul" fans want it harsh and brutal so let them have it without some manner of casual-ization being levied against the franchise.

To be perfectly honest, based on my own time with Demon's Souls, I think the game would come off as a vapid experience without the difficulty. It's a crucial component and those not interested in that level of difficulty should play something else.

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yukushi

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#43 yukushi
Member since 2011 • 2368 Posts

Everyone 's talking about Demons's Souls and Dark Souls but their difficulty scare me away. I'm wondering why dont they make it more accessible for players who often/always play games on easy so that more people can enjoy their games and they make more $$$ ?Zensword

99% of games on the market have being dumbed down, why cant hardcore gamers have at least one game for ourselves please do not be greedy.

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blackace

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#44 blackace
Member since 2002 • 23576 Posts
[QUOTE="Maroxad"]

3 things

  1. Not every game needs to sell millions to make a profit.
  2. Demons Souls and most likely Dark Souls need to be difficult as this adds to the atmosphere, and to please the fans of their older games like King's Field.
  3. Demons Souls wasnt even hard at all if you spent some points on Vitality and knew how to avoid attacks. I cant comment for Dark Souls yet however, but I have a feeling it wont be much "harder". Demons Souls was one of the easiest games I have played this gen.
Zensword
2. I undestand that many players want it to be hard but how about easy difficulty for people whodont have skill or patience ? Everyone would be happy.

Demon's Souls was a game made specifically for the hardcore gamer. There are other games out there that are meant for the casual gamers.
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Elann2008

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#45 Elann2008
Member since 2007 • 33028 Posts

The real question is... why didn't they make a PC version? :cry: Looks like I'll be getting it for the PS3/360 then.

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Vari3ty

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#46 Vari3ty
Member since 2009 • 11111 Posts

I think the opposite with Assassin's Creed. Why not add a difficulty to it to actually add a challenge?

IndianaPwns39

I can't tell you how much I agree with this statement. Assassin's Creed is so easy, I'm almost positive I could win every combat situation while playing blindfolded.

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almasdeathchild

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#47 almasdeathchild
Member since 2011 • 8922 Posts

[QUOTE="IndianaPwns39"]

I think the opposite with Assassin's Creed. Why not add a difficulty to it to actually add a challenge?

Vari3ty

I can't tell you how much I agree with this statement. Assassin's Creed is so easy, I'm almost positive I could win every combat situation while playing blindfolded.

countering constantly doesnt count as easy

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fl4tlined

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#48 fl4tlined
Member since 2007 • 4134 Posts
i never understood why people said demon's souls was so trial and error... i mean did i die hell yes i did. but did i feel like at every new situation i died and redid the level nah. i mean it wasnt trial and error as much as having patience and being precautions about every nook and cranny and having your shield raised at all times and listening... my only 2 problems with the game were level 5 with the swamp (god that sucked so much arse) and dying on the boss and redoing the whole level with most of the time not having a check point but apparently now theres checkpoints before bosses so that fixed my one issue. i mean i would rather play a game thats balls bustingly hard where you feel great accomplishment for beating a boss or heck even getting out a sticky situation then a game that goes the path of many games today where you only die if the game does something incredibly cheap at that one part and the rest of the game is a dull boring cakewalk to the end
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fl4tlined

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#50 fl4tlined
Member since 2007 • 4134 Posts
[QUOTE="ShadowDeathX"]The good thing about it, is that its fair game.DJ_Lae
Only once you've memorized the levels. When you're learning the layout, there's a ton of unfair moments in the monster closet vein, where you walk out of a door and there's an enemy immediately to one side of you.

then block when going into a room i mean **** its not that hard add that and the fact half the time there would be a message warning you to be careful going in there how easy do you want the game to be? i mean atleast its better then walking around a corner in deadisland and being insta gibbed by a suicider with no means to protect yourself with a shield