What genres and subgenres of Video games are outdated today?

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#1 Edited by saurus-varta (32 posts) -

Decades ago the shoot'em ups, the graphic adventures, the management strategy, were the best-selling games. Today titles like Fortnite or Spider-man triumph. But the old genres are reluctant to die. Let's remember them.

The genres of video games have almost always been linked to the limitations of the hardware of the time. When those limitations are overcome, sometimes their games are forgotten.

The retreat of Sega, Taito, Irem, Data East and Konami, Cave Soft, and Housemarque. They make it clear that arcade-type video games for game consoles are not going through their best moment. The game, linear, direct and simple, have no future? Why? http://www.housemarque.com/arcade-is-dead/

What genres and subgenres of Video games are outdated today? Are arcade 2D, linear and simple to play, such as platforms, shoot'em up, beat'em up, run'n gun and Vs fight, are they also or will be in the future? Why?.

What could come, after this type of arcade video games? What will remain after them?

A report of videogames, comments that'll make videogames, hybrid or mixed various videogames generes.

A trend, which is becoming more common than a game, is that it contains elements of different genres. Why?

The current genres of video games arcade platforms, beat-em up or brawler, shoot-em up, run-n gun, and Vs fight, could form hybrid games between two or more different genres, or will they remain differentiated as they are until now?

Will the new hybrid genres of videogames, in less arcades games (less direct and simple to play) be transformed then? Why.?

With the arrival of the three-dimensional graphics did not change the style of play, but instead, the way to play them.

The 2D mechanics games, are less playable, complete and fun, than those of 3D mechanics, being more limited and less spectacular (being static screens, such as Bionic Commando Rearmed 1 and 2), less deep and enveloping.?

A blog about videogames, commented that, "An innovative mechanics or a sublime story is necessary to keep them alive in times of new technologies, which I imagine much more immersive. Who knows, games that put you in the center of the stage, maybe through glasses, or lenses, or downloaded directly to the brain, technology that will make only a few geeks choose the screen of all life, changing our society up and down, but that will be a new page in history. " https://eljueguista.wordpress.com/2013/01/02/como-envejecen-los-videojuegos/

Is the future of gaming 100% VR/AR/immersive?

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#2 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

I think all genres can have growth, depending how a developer handles flaws in how it functions and focuses on improvements in the right areas. Dragon's Crown for example is a modern Beat em' Up similar to Golden Axe and Shadow over Mystara, but removed a lot of repetitive design and gave some form of depth to its combat mechanics. Also added other layers that increased replayability in a more enjoyable way. Bare Knuckle 2 (Streets of Rage 2) was also a big deal for Be'U fans because of its depth and layers, many developers became stale cloning Final Fight which lacks any real depth and has A.I. with adaptable speed to give the illusion of challenge.

With the arrival of the three-dimensional graphics did not change the style of play, but instead, the way to play them. The 2D mechanics games, are less playable, complete and fun, than those of 3D mechanics, being more limited and less spectacular

Disagree, depth and enjoyment of gaming mechanics comes from the talent of developer, time, plus resources, and the goals they aspire to achieve regardless of dimension preference. I could probably list more 3D games that are garbage as well over 2D. Doesn't make one better, just needs a team to do it justice.

An innovative mechanics or a sublime story is necessary to keep them alive in times

Whoever wrote this seems to be what's annoying about many online gaming opinions. Insisting things of personal preference are the be-all to end-all.

Stating games need a sublime story to be relevant, is frankly. . stupid. Tetris Effect may as well call it quits, close shop guys. . Pac-Man DX also didn't deserve the praise, and sales. . .

*cough* Chasing an audience of consumers that may need a story to enjoy a game is fine, should however not for many developers be the primary focus. For those that appreciate gaming as a medium, stories are an added layer that needs to be added in carefully or will damage a games pacing and burn up time/ assets/ funding.

If a game stinks mechanically? It's a bad game. No random blog on the internet is fooling anyone. Dressing up a bad game with cutting edge graphics or flood of writing doesn't make it any less a bad game. Example-D00M III.

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#3 Posted by henrythefifth (1961 posts) -

JRPGs are still stuck on last last gen. They still got barren, PS2 era game worlds and mechanics. And graphics.

There are few exceptions, but on the whole, games like Nier Automata or tales have nothing current gen on them. They could've easily run on PS3.

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#4 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

The 2D mechanics games, are less playable, complete and fun, than those of 3D mechanics

2d games are more varied than 3d games because they don't always have to be limited to a fixed point in a three dimensional environment.

So 2d games have more potential complexity because it is possible to represent on screen, in terms of interactive objects, a more complex game (even if it's rendered in 3d as in Tropico 3).

In 2d, without the handicap of interacting with the world from a single point in 3d space, you allow more gameplay options than merely aiming your reticle and clicking the mouse within a limited field of view.

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#5 Edited by Speeny (651 posts) -

Even though there's still a significant following for them I'd say 3D Platformers. (Which is debatable.) All you're really seeing these days of that genre is Kickstarter projects & stuff from Nintendo + remakes

It's a real shame because it's one of my favourite genres.

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#6 Posted by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@speeny: Tearaway comes to mind but even that's over five years at this point. It's true though, because Nintendo do it so well it scares off the competition. No big publisher wants to compete with them. So we have to rely on the Indie scene to do something about it.

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#7 Posted by Speeny (651 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: Yep, exactly that.

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#8 Posted by pook99 (795 posts) -
@jackamomo said:

The 2D mechanics games, are less playable, complete and fun, than those of 3D mechanics

2d games are more varied than 3d games because they don't always have to be limited to a fixed point in a three dimensional environment.

So 2d games have more potential complexity because it is possible to represent on screen, in terms of interactive objects, a more complex game (even if it's rendered in 3d as in Tropico 3).

In 2d, without the handicap of interacting with the world from a single point in 3d space, you allow more gameplay options than merely aiming your reticle and clicking the mouse within a limited field of view.

I completely agree, indie game developers have crafted some absolutely amazing 2d game environments that present some incredible innovative and challenging scenarios that would not be possible in a 3d space.

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#10 Posted by ArchoNils2 (10232 posts) -

I think every genre has potential to evolve. Tetris Effect showed us how you can mix tetris with art and a Pacman I played on the PS3 (iirc) showed how you can turn PacMan into a fast puzzler

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#11 Posted by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@ArchoNils2 said:

and a Pacman I played on the PS3 (iirc) showed how you can turn PacMan into a fast puzzler

Pac-Man Championship Edition DX, a personal favorite of mine as well

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#12 Posted by Jastiv (5 posts) -

Obsolete game genres include

old school point and click adventures (cause you could just find a hint guide, then so what)

3d platformers (they always sucked)

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#13 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: Dragon's Crown for example is a modern Beat em' Up similar to Golden Axe and Shadow over Mystara, but removed a lot of repetitive design and gave some form of depth to its combat mechanics.

I thought the Dragon's Crown remake was a disappointment. Insane character art aside, it's really still just Golden Axe with spells.

The original game, Princess Crown on Saturn was a straight forward 1 v 1 fighter but sometimes with more than one enemy at once and with spells but is about 80% reading text as they all have long conversations with each other which you can only read if you're Japanese anyway.

But it was a new kind of game, mixing a fighting game using button combos for special moves with adventure.

The sequel, Dragon's Crown was originally conceived as a 3d fighting adventure game but more beat em up like Golden Axe but retaining the button combinations.

The remake returned to 2d and redrew the characters and just made a scrolling beat em up.

Artwork went from this.

To this.

You can see the artists working on the 2013 remake aren't even in the same league as the talent on show in the 1998 version.

I mean what even is that?

The new Sega game Fist of the North Star is an attempt at a 3d beat em up and plays alot like Dynasty Warriors. It is a very story heavy game though and aimed at Anime fans really. The combat is a strange leveling up system where you select a move then just hit the button to execute it, blowing up like 15 guys at once. Or 1 on 1 fights. There is a radar in the top right corner but I thought it looked awkward to control as the camera keeps moving and you can't see behind you.

EDIT: I should say, new Dragon's Crown isn't actually a bad game and there are a good variety of spells and techniques with online co-op which is cool, just not quite reaching the potential the first game might have been mechanically, was it not cancelled back in the 90's.

Dragon’s Crown is terrific fun, with the appropriate mindset. It may or may not be distasteful, depending on one’s tolerance for cliches and objectivity, and it may or may not be fun, depending on one’s tolerance for 2-D beat ‘em ups that put the onus of combat potential on the player. However, the strength it has in aesthetic character and gameplay is mighty indeed. Dragon’s Crown doesn’t offer any much needed enrichment of its various genres, but it makes up for this by committing to its visual identity and the frenetic, empowering possibilities of its game design.

https://www.darkstation.com/reviews/dragons-crown

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#14 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@jackamomo: So much wrong with your post, just a heads up I'm going to be calling you wrong and crazy a lot through this reply. As someone who follows Vanillaware and is familiar with the teams projects.

First things first, no retro Dragon's Crown game exists.

So you dislike Dragon's Crown out of art design? seems pretty shallow. Guess you missed Odin Sphere, and Muramasa?

And the concept art you show is a project pitched to Capcom which they rejected for being "outdated". No actual information about it being this 3D Fighting game or one versus one exists so stop throwing nonsense! I have the development book from the collectors edition and the idea was pitched as a Beat em' Up for the Sega Saturn, nothing more. No other details are given by Kamitani san or his team (which would become Vanillaware)_

But on that note, you can one versus one in Dragon's Crown, it's an optional mode. But doesn't seem you know much of the game honestly. So how you are disappointed is obtuse_

I mean what even is that? ^

An artstyle, clearly. And a pretty original one at that. Has been Vanillawares and Kamitani sans signature art since he founded his own company after they left Capcom

It was his dream along with his teams to preserve sprite art in games; so this 3D game gibberish of any kind was never planned_

Kamitani san is the same man who did the concept art you really like, and outside them being different characters and a more basic figure the actual style is very similar, someone with a noticeable eye would know it's the same Artist.

Also worth noting, the witch girl from the concept made it into the final game of Dragon's Crown. Looking almost identical_

You would know that if you >played< the game.

it's really still just Golden Axe with spells

Golden Axe (all of them) have spells. That's the dumbest statement I've read from you in awhile. And that's saying a lot considering you just made up a story about a game I'm already mid correcting you on_

The new Sega game Fist of the North Star is an attempt at a 3d beat em up and plays alot like Dynasty Warriors.

Yeah I don't care for 3D horde brawlers. And that game you randomly brought up is just a clone of Yakuza. Back on track, Dragon's Crown is exactly what it aims to be and surpassed expectations. Has great input, parries, wall juggler combos, blocks, dodges with tactical i-frames, great replay-value, drop-in/out coop/versus, and random generated dungeons. Has deep mechanics much like Muramasa but on a larger scale. All of this was to break the trend of Beat em' Ups repetitive design. And for the most case works_

You don't seem to know any of this, and made up a story that it was suppose to be a 3D fighting game because the Amazon scares you. Talk about insecurity issues. .

If you don't like the art? That's perfectly fine, I've seen many make that claim. But your levels for making up stories to troII the board is getting out of hand.

You knew nothing about From Software, and Bare Knuckle Remake. And now showing an outlandish level of ignorance for Vanillaware. Know when to call it a day dood!

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#15 Posted by Robbie23 (114 posts) -

Point and click horrors.

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#16 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@robbie23: First things first, no retro Dragon's Crown game exists. So you dislike Dragon's Crown out of art design?

Yes. It's weird. It looks nice but why are all the women naked and all the men clothed. It's pervy.

It did say remake and I meant modern version as they obviously never made the original concept but I did read they were hoping, at first, to make it a 3d beat em up. I might try and find the article again.

If it was this man's dream to preserve sprite art he did it a disservice because the sprites do not blend with the background and it resembles a flash game with very little animation outside of breasts that 'resemble two ferrets in a tumble dryer'.

The original game Princess Crown wasn't a beat em up but a combination fighting game with spells and potions and stats and a long boring story. It's tonnes of walking around and talking but the few rare fights there are are pretty cool.

They were planning to keep the same combat mechanic for the beat em up version. Probably playing a bit like Guardian Heroes but as a scrolling beat em up and in 3d.

I don't know how many developers are left from the original game but it's nothing like Princess Crown. It's a pretty vanilla beat em up. ^^

What I'm saying is. combining a fighting game style with a scrolling beat em up would have been an interesting concept to me but for whatever reason it never happened.

I heard about the Streets of Rage remake when it came out and didn't like the look of it as barely any new content and have just shoved all the content into a executable without asking Sega.

Bringing up Fist of the North Star is on track because it's a beat em up and it's in 3d.

Vanillaware didn't do anything new for the genre. Everything down to the stereotyped grotesque characters is by the numbers.

Having said all that. It looks like a robustly designed game and satisfying to play and the online and spell combos etc look cool but I wouldn't call it particularly deep. There is still only 1 attack button.

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#17 Posted by Robbie23 (114 posts) -

@jackamomo: Sorry mate, I think you replied to the wrong person because all I said was point and click adventures, haha :P

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#18 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@jackamomo said:

Yes. It's weird. It looks nice but why are all the women naked and all the men clothed. It's pervy.

Just seems to me you have a loath for creators intent. A very common rant from insecure perceptive considering, it was clearly a game made in a country with far different moral standards to yours, I'm sure you still throw rocks at villagers as well.

If you don't like half naked drawings, tributing an uncannily and respectable set of books, television, board games, myth, and retro gaming from all things medieval fantasy?

That's your issue (Amazon from Dragon's Crown is visually based on this retro character). Forcing your views on creators intent is very damaging. Games get controlled with outside bigots with regional anti-moral standards enough as it is.

It did say remake and I meant modern version as they obviously never made the original concept but I did read they were hoping, at first, to make it a 3d beat em up. I might try and find the article again.

Nonsense. It was pitched to Capcom as a 2D Beat em' Up and was rejected at very early stages 'didn't make past concept art'. That's why Vanillaware exists today.

Dragon's Crown is Kamitani sans pet project he wanted to do back then. And because Vanillaware has creative control is not just the game it was always intended to be, it was without publisher restrictions.

The original game Princess Crown wasn't a beat em up but a combination fighting game with spells and potions and stats and a long boring story. It's tonnes of walking around and talking but the few rare fights there are are pretty cool.

Yeah you keep stating this but Dragon's Crown was never suppose to be a follow-up. It's only intended to exist in the same world. The successor to Princes Crown is Odin Sphere, you ignoring that other great game is your issue and not Vanillawares from your self-indulgent expectations. Did you get unhappy when Nights wasn't the Sonic the Hedgehog sequel you always wanted?

They were planning to keep the same combat mechanic for the beat em up version. Probably playing a bit like Guardian Heroes but as a scrolling beat em up and in 3d.

Nope.

I don't know how many developers are left from the original game but it's nothing like Princess Crown. It's a pretty vanilla beat em up. ^^

"I'm moaning because I just want Princess Crown 2" cool opinion. And also lol, you got me. . how can I enjoy this well designed and the great gameplay of Dragon's Crown, when a mad man rants about a games he's constantly getting corrected on. . Because he doesn't like the art?

Also everyone at Vanillaware worked at Capcom in the 90's, the team has only grown (lead by Kamitani George san). And are credited in each project. Even for the upcoming title 13 Sentinels. The entire team is still present.

Vanillaware didn't do anything new for the genre. Everything down to the stereotyped grotesque characters is by the numbers.

Your angle is pretty pathetic. But I'll play your game.

All I know is Vanillaware still make games valued as masterpieces, and are a beloved developer. What's the original MechWarrior team doing these days? And how well are they remembered? I recall playing two games and thinking they're hot garbage (I actually played them and can make accurate comments on its poor controls/ handling, uninspiring art, and terrible level design)

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#19 Posted by jdc6305 (4972 posts) -

3d games are starting to get dated I think it's time we go back to 2d games.

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#20 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@jdc6305 said:

3d games are starting to get dated I think it's time we go back to 2d games.

While I don't share your strict perspective, based on your avatar I can understand your view on quality.

Chrono Trigger is a fantastic game, and when I saw D-Pad make a mock-up for a true sequel. All I thought was "I would love if that was real"

Loading Video...

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#21 Edited by jdc6305 (4972 posts) -
@RSM-HQ said:
@jdc6305 said:

3d games are starting to get dated I think it's time we go back to 2d games.

While I don't share your strict perspective, based on your avatar I can understand your view on quality.

Chrono Trigger is a fantastic game, and when I saw D-Pad make a mock-up for a true sequel. All I thought was "I would love if that was real"

Loading Video...

Yeah that was cool. Games back then were games. They were art. They didn't try to be interactive movies. Some of today's games are so mindless. Mash X until the cut scene then watch cheesy story mash x some more. Two games I tried recently were Shadow of War and Uncharted Lost Legacy both bored me to tears in the first half hour. Been playing dead cells a lot. The only reason I'm still playing games is I like to see the creativity in them. The only creativity I've been seeing lately is new ways to nickle and dime us to death on content.

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#22 Posted by VagrantSnow (106 posts) -

RTS. They've largely followed the same formula set by RTS games in the 90s and hasn't evolved or adapted to modern gaming trends in almost 3 decades.

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#23 Posted by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@jdc6305: Must admit haven't played those games, even Dead Cells.

I've read nothing but bad things about Shadow of War and Uncharted kind of hit its pinnacle with UC2, and even on its best day is a very long winded cinematic experience, I do agree. Couldn't even finish UC3 due to its bad pacing, mediocre shooting and restrictive controls.

Not my kind of games and even the new God of war suffered for this take on gameplay.

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#24 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: Just seems to me you have a loath for creators intent. A very common rant from insecure perceptive considering, it was clearly a game made in a country with far different moral standards to yours, I'm sure you still throw rocks at villagers as well.

I'll be honest, I didn't understand all of the above. But I don't 'loath for [all] creator's intent RSM. I'm not the only person to comment on Dragon's Crown's artwork. In fact I would guess the only reason they made that Amazon woman's butt so big and the sorcerecer's boobs so huge was to get attention for an otherwise mediocre game.

I can still lament a design decision not taken for a more safe and straight forward game like the 2013 version turned out to be.

The sprite work simply has no depth to it, characters appear flat and the colours are overall dark with neon gradients which is the de facto fantasy art style at this time.

The artists are not at the level of Princess Crown. And yes, given both games have crown in the title you could argue Dragon's Crown is a literal sequel to the first game which just doesn't resemble it in any way.

All I know is Vanillaware still make games valued as masterpieces, and are a beloved developer. What's the original MechWarrior team doing these days? And how well are they remembered? I recall playing two games and thinking they're hot garbage (I actually played them and can make accurate comments on its poor controls/ handling, uninspiring art, and terrible level design)

No-one is calling Dragon's Crown a masterpiece whilst Mechwarrior 2 has that accolade many times over from the press and public.

If you watched any of the Mechwarrior fanboy videos I posted you would know those games are still very popular.

@vagrantsnow: RTS. They've largely followed the same formula set by RTS games in the 90s and hasn't evolved or adapted to modern gaming trends in almost 3 decades.

RTS I was going to say... Relic improved three things. The point capture system. The cover mechanic. The squad mechanic. Also a heavy focus on artillery to break stalmate and give ridiculous rng with single shells able to kill half their army or a V1 taking out 6 squads as they get back to base clutch shot.

Company of Heroes is not given due credit for what it did. The real shame was the sequel could not live up the original's quality and innovation and it regressed into dlc and infantry heavy meta due to point capturing no longer requiring the capturer to take increased damage and not being able to return fire so hiding behind sandbags in point capture circles in the sequel broke the game.

Company of Heroes 2 is now grindy like Starcraft / 2 which the original was trying to avoid with it's retreat squad mechanic. Infantry veterancy system and artillery focus.

The sequel was the last hope for the genre but they lost the head developer from CoH1 and descended into DLC choas...

I mean the game isn't that bad. Just not as good as the first and the also managed to mess up the latest 40k game, not fixing the issues from the previous game of stale combat. Also the art is boring.

Relic made huge improvements after making the first fully 3d rts game (Sins of a Solar Empire? - citation needed) then onto the amazing Warhammer 40k: Dawn of War. But the 40k series dwindled and didn't improve or innovate. Apart from The Last Standalone which I got hooked on like it was crack.

But there is so much more that could be done do broaden it's appeal and innovate in an infinite number of ways but devs or publishers are just too risk averse I think and 8 bit Armies was so vanilla it was painful. It didn't even have textures - it looked like Tron.

It's worth noting that Company of Heroes (2006) is not only the highest rating rts game of all time, but the highest (professionally) rated game of all time. It is for me the best game ever made and people need to realise this is the best game ever made. It uses Relic's Essence graphics engine with the best use of Havok engine in a game to date with an almost fully destructible environment. The fast paced combat is second to none. The sound is immense with thousands of voice samples with excellent, funny and nuanced acting "can't you go any faster Claus!" - german motorbike. The final patch was the most balanced patch for any rts game ever. The possibility of comebacks were numerous if you had the skill, and stamina to still pull crazy sh*t 45 minutes into a game. The variety of options available are insane. The British faction is so unique it enraged half the community and it's abilities were never properly explored in competitive (semi-pro/amature league/eg. Sunday Night Fight) play.

It is still played competitively today for money all staged by fans who run a site COH2.org.

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#25 Posted by SoNin360 (6949 posts) -

Definitely on-rails shooters. I wonder if people still even play them in arcades anymore. In any case, I was never fascinated by the sub-genre. I played a couple of games on the PS3 that were on-rails shooters and they really weren't any good. I guess I'm more of a newer generation gamer, so it's no surprise that I don't have any sort of appreciation for on-rails shooters.

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#26 Posted by Johndmgs (316 posts) -

Side scrolling beat-em ups mostly feel dated to me. There are good ones like that fanmade Streets of Rage remake but a lot of them boil down to mindless button mashing.

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#27 Posted by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@jackamomo:

In fact the only reason they made that Amazon woman's butt so big and the sorcerecer's boobs so huge was to get attention for an otherwise mediocre game.

No facts given from you throughout this discussion so don't pretend to have any now. Art department/ staff is different to the people behind coding and programming. And the art assets for Dragon's Crown and every Vanillaware game for that matter are done years before the nitty gritty of programming and focus on gameplay. You're assumption is very flawed.

Seems to me you live in your own small bubble, and have a habit of telling tall tales. All I know is I've provided clear screenshots knocking down many false claims. While you've provided nothing but your bizarre opinion while being ignorant about the game you rant about.

can still lament a design decision not taken for a more safe and straight forward game like the 2013 version turned out to be.

I've already shown you an older Vanillaware game with very similar character designs. Your lack of comprehension is beginning to grow repetitve. And while you can call the game "safe" it did many design descisions previous Beat em' Ups never did. And gave it a heavy dose of content, replay-value and depth to its combat.

I'm not the only person to comment on Dragon's Crown's artwork

Yeah some amateur artist from Gearbox Software ranting about Vanillaware art designs, and they created many games with sexual content as well. It's a hypocritical stance of double standards and the ranting voice has since come off social media for being boycotted a hypocrite.

The sprite work simply has no depth to it, characters appear flat and the colours are overall dark with neon gradients which is the de facto fantasy art style at this time.

Yeah I'll take this with a grain of salt. You've already been corrected on the variety in the game to the extent it's clear you have no understanding for what the game offers.

No-one is calling Dragon's Crown a masterpiece

Type 'Dragon's Crown' and 'masterpiece' in your beloved Youtube and you would be surprised. Dragon's Crown was well praised upon release and became Vanillawares best selling games they've ever developed including the projects they did at Capcom. This was well noted when they made the free expansion pack for the success of the game during the holidays.

And yes, given both games have crown in the title you could argue Dragon's Crown is a literal sequel to the first game which just doesn't resemble it in any way

Yeah, that's not how it works. Plenty of developers/ companies reuse parts of names they like and make completely different experiences. Take Nintendo and "Bros" as example; are you disappointed Smash Bros isn't a 2D Platformer?

whilst Mechwarrior 2 has that accolade many times over from the press and public.

No place I've seen calls any MechWarrior a masterpiece. Minus yourself. In fact you are the first I've seen name that series here in over five years. And based on sales, it sold like hot trash. It's for people who don't know what Armored Core is, the clear superior Mech series. And From Software the superior developer almost to a fault.

Never actually played Princess Crown (old game on an outdated system) so will state no negative about it. You're already giving enough rants on games people don't play to cover the entire board. . I am however familiar with Odin Sphere. Which Vanillaware has credited as Princess Crowns successor. And yes, Odin Sphere very much is also considered a masterpiece by many.

My natural assumption/ hypothetical if you will/ is OS is better than PC and your nostalgic to yet another older game is blinding you from reality. Which at this point would not be shocking.

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#28 Posted by Archangel3371 (26459 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: I loved Dragon’s Crown such a really fun and cool game.

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#29 Posted by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@Archangel3371 said:

@RSM-HQ: I loved Dragon’s Crown such a really fun and cool game.

Certainly one of my favorite returning games. And a soft spot for anyone who has a fondness for Beat em' Ups.

A developer created a interesting game on GoG and Steam which is inspired by Vanillawares games, namely Odin Sphere called The Vagrant and is really good

I hope for a multiplat release now that O.T.K got a publisher. Would love to rebuy it on a console.

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#30 Posted by DoroG1995 (2342 posts) -

On rail shooters.(Since who wants to play them when you can play FPS games with more freedom to movement)

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#31 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: As usual you miss my point completely.

I'm lamenting an unoriginal beat em up that was proposed as a 3d fighting game meets a beat em up. That was the original idea all those years ago.

You seem to think I don't like something because it is new but it is because it is old that I don't like new Dragon's Crown.

If you can't tell the difference between a dumb arena shooter and a single player simulation game because they both involve piloting a mech then I'm not sure how you can be an authority on genre's.

PS. You can't play Princess Crown. It's in Japanese only.

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#32 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@jackamomo said: You can't play Princess Crown. It's in Japanese only.

Yeah that's not a problem for me. English is the language in which I struggle sometimes. And even then I'm better at it for writing than some I've seen on the board who are native to the language.

However. It was a Sega Saturn game and its PSP release had a very limited publication run only producing 200.000 copies. It costs far too much on PSP for me to ever consider playing. Vanillaware don't consider it worth the effort, they are after all just a team of 26 members that work on two projects at a time.

Why port a game like Odin Sphere, when people can just play Odin Sphere? Vanillaware clearly consider that the game worth preserving.

That was the original idea all those years ago.

Burden of proof is on you. I know quite a lot about Vanillaware and you've shown nothing to backup your claims what-so-ever (fabricated claims at that). If you want to make stuff up? places like System-Wars accept that garbage. But this is a board for discussing games in context and wants for projects. Not shoving false information down peoples throats.

You seem to think I don't like something because it is new but it is because it is old that I don't like new Dragon's Crown.

Throughout this entire conversation you've complained Dragon's Crown is not Princess Crown. I've told you time. . . and time again the actual successor to that game. . and you ignore Odin Sphere just to make stuff up about Dragon's Crown.

That's blind nostalgia. You want a tribute to Beat em Ups like Golden Axe to be something else, when was never the goal. So it's 100% your issue.

You are so sown to the past you cannot accept anything else. And have expressed as such through this conversation.

If you can't tell the difference between a dumb arena shooter and a single player simulation game because they both involve piloting a mech then I'm not sure how you can be an authority on genre's.

Armored Core isn't an Arena Shooter, or ever was. Another false claim on a pile of many.

@RSM-HQ said: Know when to call it a day dood!

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#33 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: Yeah Odin's Sphere did look a bit crap.

The thing is, Capcom has the best artists in the business. An independant company will never be able to compete with that.

Vanillaware may have worked for Capcom, but without their resources, they do not have the budget or expertise for building a 3d beat em up.

So they made 2d beat em ups, using a combo style and boss rush formula but the artwork was just not on the level of a Capcom game.

I appreciate they made a game and it was ok. But it's not breaking any boundaries really is it. Having spells and online play in a beat em up might not be that innovative really.

Armoured Core is a third person shooter with a focus on reaction times and fast movement, progressing through corridors and cities. Mechwarrior 1-4 are vehicle simulation games with physics playing a role with mechs ranging from battle suit to large with everything in-between. You customise your mechs with a wide variety of weapons, modules, engines and armour to prepare for a mission.

You have a heat indicator which will shut you down if it gets too high or you will go nuclear if you get hit hard enough and lose the mech.

You collect and buys mechs along the campaign and build up a 'lance' of up to 4 squad member which you give orders to and you can hire new pilots.

They are too different to compare.

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#34 Posted by sakaiXx (4219 posts) -

RTS - starcraft & Friends

SRPG - Final Fantasy Tactics & Friends

2d beat em up - I have no example on this, been a long time since last played one

Simulators - still got euro truck and farming simulator but nowhere in its heyday.

Rail Shooter - virtua Cop 2 is the best ever... 20 years ago

Rhythm game - Persona 3 Dancing is GOTY

Extreme sports game - Tony hawk is not cool anymore and SSX is dead.

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#35 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@jackamomo: I think at this point we need to move on, you think Vanillaware are "crap" despite not playing a game from the team since Princess Crown. A game release 1997. And this is well noted through the discussion, you don't really have a first hand experience with Odin Sphere or Dragon's Crown, and barely any second hand knowledge to give any detailed perspective. Many of what you've posted has already been proven to be incorrect. This is all shown above and cannot really be argued_

And good for you being able to look up Armored Core on Google, has more depth than that, but at least you've accepted it's not Unreal or Quake. You have swords in Armored Core bye the way. Really awesome and has a risk reward manner of function.

Certainly you can call more about a franchise you actually play (for decades), goes without stating. One of many parts I've brought up through this conversation is your blissful ignorance. You can give MechWarrior some sort of service to its charm because you've played them and can recall what makes them standout. And is why I aggro'd in a title you are familiar with. I knew you would give a deeper perspective to me, someone who gave up on two games after a few hours of play. Don't want to say I tricked you, but I basically did just to prove a point_

You don't however have even close to that knowledge for the three games I've noted and frankly that's all that needs to be stated as I close my end on this long winded conversation of one sided knowledge/ experience and even used images to display being correct versus a Ultracrepidarian.

Dragon's Crown is without doubt a refined and well tuned machine of a modern-day Beat em' Up. Vanillaware have taken consideration on what has made the genre dated, and added layers to the game to be far less repetitive than games like Golden Axe and Shadow over Mystara.

Now you can keep calling everything "crap" (the very definition of ultracrepidarianism) but have already shown to be a repeating cycle of "it stinks; it stinks" having next to no knowledge outside quoting a wikipedia page for summary. Then dismissing it and using words like "ok" "bad" "garbage" and whatever other edgelord word you can really get your hands on_

So better to stick with games you have some form of experience or knowledge on. I mean you can waste time and insist your gibberish has weight, however have already been corrected a multitude of times, and wasn't fun even to begin with. Only followed it this far because you threw yourself on my post and insisted a heavy dose of false information. Which I don't think should be commended on this board.

And I think it goes without stating if you played Odin Sphere? And put your nostalgic and ultracrepidarian mindset in check. You'd likely have a great time with the game. Dragon's Crown? Unlikely because you've convinced yourself it was a very different game so have false expectations to an otherwise fantastic Beat em' Up.

Till next time. I prefer to have conversations like the World of Tanks one. Games you have knowledge and a passion for.

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#36 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -
@sakaixx said:

RTS - starcraft & Friends

SRPG - Final Fantasy Tactics & Friends

2d beat em up - I have no example on this, been a long time since last played one

Simulators - still got euro truck and farming simulator but nowhere in its heyday.

Rail Shooter - virtua Cop 2 is the best ever... 20 years ago

Rhythm game - Persona 3 Dancing is GOTY

Extreme sports game - Tony hawk is not cool anymore and SSX is dead.

What does outdated mean? Thats what I want to know because I think rts is still relevant.

What is an srpg? If it's like jrpg then Phantasy Star Online 2 is very popular in Japan.

2d Fighting. No way. Never gets boring. Just play ST3 or 4 not 5 or KoF 13 or 14 if you're scum.

Rail Shooter. I want more of these. But I don't have a light gun. Or anyone else. Which is wrong.

Simulation. I want more of these. The new flying one's are just not that ambitious, they don't even have clouds and it's 2018. The market is always big for these.

[EDIT] The previous statement is b*llocks. Microsoft Flight simulator X (2006). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmDyOEkY Still no realistic rain or fog or weather in general.

Dancing / exercise games must die. Apart from Samba de Amigo which remains the benchmark of excellence.

Tony Hawk's got old way before he should have hung his Vans up. Jet Set Radio brought it in a new direction. But I'm glad there are no more Tony Hawk games.

Trick Style on the DC is where snowboarding is at. I want a really good trial bmx or motorbike game where you go up really steep rocks.

Adventure games are outdated but they had a baby with Prince of Persia and Rambo and the modern movie game was born.

If they were of the quality of Full Throttle they would sell but I don't think the margins are very high on those games. That's why the Lucasart's out of work staff made Telltale Games but didn't bother to make them quite frankly good enough.

I would have bought them if they were a bit higher production value with better graphics. They were very cheap games but the idea was really just a 3d scumm engine. They just didn't put enough artistry into the framing of the scenes like Grim Fandango did and they all kind of looked like The Sims to me.

Sure thing RSM-HQ. But you can stop accusing me of talking out my arse just because I can't be bothered to dig out that article to prove something to you. I honestly think your an annoying little Hitler and insecure and pretty much just attack me out of habit at this point.

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#37 Posted by VagrantSnow (106 posts) -

@jackamomo said:

Things

Relic was probably the last quality RTS dev but even their singleplayer offerings were largely built upon decades old formula of linear, pass/fail campaign challenges.

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#38 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -
@jackamomo said:

Sure thing RSM-HQ. But you can stop accusing me of talking out my arse just because I can't be bothered to dig out that article to prove something to you. I honestly think your an annoying little Hitler and insecure and pretty much just attack me out of habit at this point.

Again, burden of proof was on you.

You jumped on my post claiming false information, completely tore into the game with questionable intel. You can't state I'm giving you a hard time when you jump on someone else and tell them they have to be a pervert to like the game because no other reason is worth your consideration. And only you know what a quality game should be. It's begging me to reply in a negative manner and call out your insecurities to the artstyle_

Philosophical quandary- It's no different than complaining someone punched you in the face, after you kicked them in the dick.

But sure, I'm Hitler. Why not. . That's not excessive or anything. . Tell me to drink bleach next time lol.

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#39 Posted by Gizmojct (6 posts) -

Swat

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#40 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -

@RSM-HQ: You are borderline abusive. Stop accusing me of making things up just because I'm too lazy to find the article.

Stop saying stuff like I'm saying you have to be a pervert to play sh*tty DC. I said it was perverted. You might play it and feel a bit gross and sick but just put up with it because you want to play a simple beat em up game.

You seem to think you're some kind of debonaire genius who plays me for information, goading me to doing all your research for you.

I think your completely insane and your taste is crap and you keep accusing me of saying 'everyone', 'every game' etc when I'm talking about specific games.

That is most annoying.

You accuse me of being opinionated and claiming things as fact which I just invented but here’s you: “It's true though, because Nintendo do it so well it scares off the competition.” (On 3d platforms). What a load of balls. A Hat in Time was popular if poorly optimised and it wasn’t even very good. It’s just not a genre people are concentrating on at the moment. Nintendo don’t do it all that well. It’s just Mario 64 again in the latest resolution and colours so sugary you get diabetes.

“I played a couple of games on the PS3 that were on-rails shooters and they really weren't any good. I guess I'm more of a newer generation gamer, so it's no surprise that I don't have any sort of appreciation for on-rails shooters.” -page 1

“Johndmgs Side scrolling beat-em ups mostly feel dated to me. There are good ones like that fanmade Streets of Rage remake but a lot of them boil down to mindless button mashing.” -page 1

The above two statements say it all. Genre’s only die when good games stop coming out. There’s no reason for there not to be a good scrolling 3d shooter or light gun game (apart from new console don’t have them) apart from people forget how to make a good game in that genre as they are concentrating on the latest trends because they are a business and want to make money. But if someone comes out and just releases a good game. Everyone will just buy it because it is good. They might even make the genre popular again.

The thing is Dragon’s Crown is notorious for being unimaginative and everyone made fun of the female characters in that game. You can’t say it’s not pervy when they even make sex games as a company. I had to say something because this is one the bigger stories in recent years about lazy game design and this game’s failure to live up to Kamitani’s own hype about making an original beat em up even if that was 13 years ago.

The thing is, I'm sure I read about DG intending to be 3d at least at one point. it was meant for the DC but I would have been sure he was going to keep at least some of the more complex elements of the Princess Crown fighting system

Loading Video...

But George Kamitani is weak:

Princess Crown was the creation of George Kamitani, a developer who worked at Capcom on Saturday Night Slam Masters and Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom before leaving to become a freelancer and direct his own project. He joined a friend at an unnamed development company based in Osaka; initially focused on adult video games, the company was branching out into other genres. Princess Crown was originally envisioned as a life simulation game similar to Princess Maker 2, with players raising a female character and multiple possible endings stemming from their choices. This was changed abruptly when the game was being pitched to Sega; they asked if it was a lengthy RPG, a genre they wanted for the Saturn due to ongoing competition with the PlayStation. To prevent the game being rejected, Kamitami said it was an RPG, and quickly redid his designs to replace the simulation aspects with action RPG gameplay.

He will do anything to make money. I mean fair play to him. He got DC finished and shipped and turned a profit. Therefore adding a game to all the other one’s and it’s not too bad so all power to him.

He’s not exactly a game design genius, although PC was innovative in it's gameplay.

Princess Crown:

According to Kamitani, he wanted to create "a game like Dragon Quest with a visual style influenced by Alice in Wonderland”. …the game has received praise both upon release and by later fans both in Japan and internationally for its smooth 2D animation and artstyle.

The game's art design was universally praised by critics, with praise focusing on its character and background designs, in addition to the smooth animation of sprites.

In an article for Hardcore Gaming 101, Kurt Kalata positively noted the blend of gameplay styles while noting several mechanics which lacked balance, causing problems for players.

Gradriel vs Dragon

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Dragon's Crown Dev:

Art director George Kamitani first had the idea for Dragon's Crown thirteen years before its release, immediately after production of Princess Crown for the Sega Saturn in 1997, but claimed that he was unable to find a publisher willing to support the project, which at the time was intended for the Sega Dreamcast. Kamitani, who had previously worked with Capcom on Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom, said that he alwayswantedto develop a game that would "advance the genre", of similar titles such as Golden Axe and The King of Dragons while still keeping it 2D.

DC Result:

Dragon's Crown is an action role-playing game structured like traditional side-scrolling beat 'em up such as Capcom's Dungeons & Dragons: Shadow over Mystara and Treasure's Guardian Heroes where players move their characters across the screen into the background or foreground while defeating the assailants that confront them from all angles. Players may choose between one of six heroic characterarchetypes and travel through numerous environments alone or accompanied by computer controlled or other player characters defeating enemies using skills, combos, magic and collectable offensive weapons like bombs and crossbows recovered from chests or dropped by their foes.

“Dragon’s Crown really is an ode to the way game’s used to feel and play” - IGN https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NJDMMXMeSY

A sequel to Princess Crown was being drafted by Kamitani during the later development phase and into 1998. Intended as a 3D title for Sega's Dreamcast, the project was cancelled following the commercial failure of Princess Crown and dispersal of Atlus Kansai. Early artwork created by Kamitani for the game was later repurposed for Fantasy Earth Zero, on which Kamitani served as art director. The sequel was eventually redesigned by Kamitani as the 2D action RPG Dragon's Crown, and was released in 2013 to critical and commercial success.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Crown

So the game is a success. But it's not breaking boundaries or anything.

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#41 Edited by RSM-HQ (7513 posts) -

@jackamomo:

“Johndmgs Side scrolling beat-em ups mostly feel dated to me. There are good ones like that fanmade Streets of Rage remake but a lot of them boil down to mindless button mashing.” -page 1

I don't know why you bring this into attention, it's another game you've actively called "trash" is it not? And part the reason I brought Dragon's Crown into notice was it's going against the grain of repetitive gameplay. Many your quotations confirm this as true_

Art director George Kamitani first had the idea for Dragon's Crown thirteen years before its release, immediately after production of Princess Crown for the Sega Saturn in 1997, but claimed that he was unable to find a publisher willing to support the project, which at the time was intended for the Sega Dreamcast. Kamitani, who had previously worked with Capcom on Dungeons & Dragons: Tower of Doom, said that he alwayswantedto develop a game that would "advance the genre", of similar titles such as Golden Axe and The King of Dragons while still keeping it 2D.

This is almost an accurate quote to the development artbook that I own but translated into english. It was for the collectors edition of the game at launch which I mentioned earlier_

This is still the official Vanillaware book on Dragon's Crown and how it came to be. I believe one exists in English but may not have development notes. I dunno_

A sequel to Princess Crown was being drafted by Kamitani during the later development phase and into 1998. Intended as a 3D title for Sega's Dreamcast, the project was cancelled following the commercial failure of Princess Crown and dispersal of Atlus Kansai. Early artwork created by Kamitani for the game was later repurposed for Fantasy Earth Zero, on which Kamitani served as art director. The sequel was eventually redesigned by Kamitani as the 2D action RPG Dragon's Crown, and was released in 2013 to critical and commercial success.

This would change my perspective if it had a reliable source linked in your wikiapedia page, but I use 4Gamer regularly and even when I check the link at the bottom to this 3D game only Capcom make mention of it. So it's heavily assumed it was going to be worked on without Kamitani san and his team. And a mistranslation seems to be made because no place makes mention Dragon's Crown was a redesign. However because this is how you got such a negative view for Dragon's Crown I apologise for assuming you lied. But your source is very flawed and clearly didn't translate over well.

You've still taken it out of context to call Dragon's Crown and Vanillaware a terrible company, when it's heavily implied to be a huge success. And the company itself, very beloved. And Dragon's Crown not a remake, but rather an older idea finally being put together out of passion.

IGN

You know one is desperate for negative opinions when they go to IGN, the same site that steals peoples reviews and has a very criticised viewpoint on gaming. Why no 4Gamer review? Didn't IGN give Red Dead Redemption 2 a perfect review because it has horse testicles. .

So the game is a success. But it's not breaking boundaries or anything.

And I never stated it was breaking boundaries, I stated it was a modern day Beat em' Up. Did it need to break boundries? No, it's intent is to be faithful, but improved.

The thing is Dragon’s Crown is notorious for being unimaginative and everyone made fun of the female characters in that game.

You claim I use words like "everyone" and "everything" out of context, and then you do that, overly ironic. Pot meet kettle I believe is a term you in the west use. Maybe in your part of the world it was a game to laugh about, but Gamergate also use to be a thing, which has since died like the plague it was

But George Kamitani is weak

He will do anything to make money. I mean fair play to him. He got DC finished and shipped and turned a profit. Therefore adding a game to all the other one’s and it’s not too bad so all power to him.

I disagree, you just have different moral standards. And I still think it's insecurity. And no link to that rant I've noticed. From a poorly received source or something? Or an old blog from you_

The above two statements say it all. Genre’s only die when good games stop coming out.

Which was the EXACT point of my post to begin with. Thank **** you finally put that together!

Now can you move on already. A lot of what you've quoted are aspects I've already mentioned above. Plus some unlinked rants from angry US journalists who just want a moment in the sun. Despite being hypocrites.

These are the same kind of sources who would call Game of Thrones "revolutionary" for having rape scenes, while also praising Mass Effect and The Witcher III for sex scenes.

Vanillaware does none of this in Dragon's Crown, but because it's a different country to your own it's open to criticism by default. . While the women are clearly sexual in DC (many men are also), it's a artistic choice; these female characters the player controls are also displayed to be in control and well able to defend themselves. Strong even. Why is it that your culture can mock Dragon's Crown while defend this

It's the very definition of hypocritical.

You've contributed almost noting to the actual thread (outdated genres) and gone on a side rant how you dislike sexual content in games. Even when the game itself isn't primarily focused on its sexuality.

However it does seem that 3D game did exist to some context. And I was wrong to dismiss it in the manner I did. Not related to Vanillaware, but still a game that was in development at some stage. Not Vanillawares concern though. And shouldn't be held to them to take responsibility for.

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#42 Edited by Jackamomo (1278 posts) -
@vagrantsnow said:
@jackamomo said:

Things

Relic was probably the last quality RTS dev but even their singleplayer offerings were largely built upon decades old formula of linear, pass/fail campaign challenges.

Yes is hard to craft a good rts single player campaign and keep it interesting.

Westwood made a really tough single player campaign with Command and Conquer and Red Alert which kept you interested.

Warcraft 3 had some kind of story I recall.

I only play multiplayer though.

The concept of rts is basically rock paper scissors. Trying to pre-empt your opponents moves to have the right strategy to counter it. in CoH tank round can be HE or AP with the former gibbing infantry and the later missing 99 times in 100. But then small arms can't hurt thick armour so you need an AT gun. What you didn't build tier 2? Oh dear, your dead.

But Pikmin is a nice attempt to combine lemmings or something with rts and Mario vs Rabbids, although an x-com for kids and turn based sold quite well and proved even very young people can enjoy a strategy game.

But in-between the hard core SC2 apm whores and 8 Bit Armies rts lite there's kind of nothing a bit more arcadey but not too dumb (maybe DoTA?) which I think there's probably a gap in the market for.