The Dreamcast is severely overrated

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#151 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

I suspect they might have to redo the controls for any rerelease, and by that I mean redo the game so that it uses both analog sticks, instead of the odd way it controlled on Dreamcast , people like us who enjoy retro games generally don't mind, but I can imagine alot of people complaining about the controls if they weren't changed. but its really just about budgeting, if Sega feels not enough people will buy it, they won't pour in enough money. and given the economy, not every game will get approved though Im not sure why it hasn't been done yet, Ive got a feeling that the other game ports are running on what is basically an emulator , and if that is the case, it can't take too long to bring Shenmue to the system.Panzer_Zwei

Maybe the games are just not as popular as fans would like to believe.

Other possible reason would be the incomplete state of the series. Again, fans of the series already would know what to expect, but the mainstream audience might not be as acceptable of a game which storyline was supposed to continue but never did.

exactly. I for one would not buy it as I don't care for shenmue 1 and 2 hd. they are already hd on my dreamcast with vga. all I want is shenmue 3 and so do all other shenmue fans think and those that don't know the game yet wouldn't want an unfinished story like shenmue.

the popularity is really there though. shenmue 1 sold almost 1.5 million on a 6 million userbase and shenmue still sells for around 50$ on ebay. that says a lot. it has only increased in cult following. back 12 years ago many people critized shenmue 1. by now almost no one has a bad thing to say about it. the game was way ahead of it's time.

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#152 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

There's been 5 RYU GA GOTOKU games, 2 spin-offs on the PSP, and even one with zombies. Not to mention an HD collection of the first two games.

Maybe just nobody cares about SHENMUE in Japan.

Panzer_Zwei

each of yakuza's installations has only sold around 100.000-200.000(ps2) more in japan than shenmue 1 did. whch is amazing considering how many ps3's and ps2's are in japan compared to how many dreamcasts there were in japan. still the real popularity of shenmue is in the west

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#153 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

I suspect they might have to redo the controls for any rerelease, and by that I mean redo the game so that it uses both analog sticks, instead of the odd way it controlled on Dreamcast , people like us who enjoy retro games generally don't mind, but I can imagine alot of people complaining about the controls if they weren't changed. but its really just about budgeting, if Sega feels not enough people will buy it, they won't pour in enough money. and given the economy, not every game will get approved though Im not sure why it hasn't been done yet, Ive got a feeling that the other game ports are running on what is basically an emulator , and if that is the case, it can't take too long to bring Shenmue to the system.Shenmue_Jehuty

Maybe the games are just not as popular as fans would like to believe.

Other possible reason would be the incomplete state of the series. Again, fans of the series already would know what to expect, but the mainstream audience might not be as acceptable of a game which storyline was supposed to continue but never did.

I read that another big problem as to why the series fell off the radar had to do with the release of Shenmue 2 worldwide. Outside Japan it was released very quitely, not to mention the PAL region got it pretty much at the very end of the Dreamcast's lifespan, meaning pretty low sales for the game. The US of course got it over a year later and on the XBOX, and barely anybody at the time knew it was out, much less what it was. Again, this hurt sales for the game, pretty much telling Sega that there was no interest in the game. While I believe the game game does not carry the same fanbase numbers as something like Sonic or other really popular Sega franchises, I believe the cult following is big enough to make a commercially successful game, at least up to par with the Yakuza series, which is fairly similar.

the european version of shenmue 2 sold incredibly well and is the most imported game of all time, at least back then but I'm sure that record still holds. considering how many americans imported the game. even chains like EB imported the games and sold them in their shops together with a bootdisc. no other import I can think of had that ever. from europe I know that it sold very well. it was the best selling dreamcast title in netherlands until they stopped doing the charts in 2002. I can't say for other european countries but I'm sure it's the same. countries like uk and spain etc where dreamcast was very popular.

where it did "bomb" though was japan. shenmue 2 sold badly there. only 1/3 of shenmue 1 sales. still by then dreamcast was very dead in japan. and shenmue 2 was the third best selling game in japan in 2001 and 2002 only behind more popular sakura taisen and pso ver 2

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#154 Posted by Emerald_Warrior (6581 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shenmue_Jehuty"]

[QUOTE="Heirren"] It should go something like this. Shenmue HD Collection. $39.99 retail. ALL proceeds go to fund Shenmue 3. Pretty sure that would guarantee sales.Heirren

If that happened, I'd buy as many new copies as possible, resell them on Ebay to get my money back, and then buy some more. My level of commitment to making that series successful is ridiculous. My life will not be complete until the Shenmue saga is completed, I'm dead serious.

Nintendo should hire Yu Suzuki. His philosophy on game design falls in line with Nintendos. Nintendo needs a game like that.

That would be a cool idea. But Yu Suzuki seems like a pretty loyal guy, as he has stayed with Sega even through the bad years recently. But he's since stepped out of retirement and started his own studios. So anything is possible, I suppose.

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#155 Posted by The-Pet-Panda (47 posts) -

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

I suspect they might have to redo the controls for any rerelease, and by that I mean redo the game so that it uses both analog sticks, instead of the odd way it controlled on Dreamcast , people like us who enjoy retro games generally don't mind, but I can imagine alot of people complaining about the controls if they weren't changed. but its really just about budgeting, if Sega feels not enough people will buy it, they won't pour in enough money. and given the economy, not every game will get approved though Im not sure why it hasn't been done yet, Ive got a feeling that the other game ports are running on what is basically an emulator , and if that is the case, it can't take too long to bring Shenmue to the system.Shenmue_Jehuty

Maybe the games are just not as popular as fans would like to believe.

Other possible reason would be the incomplete state of the series. Again, fans of the series already would know what to expect, but the mainstream audience might not be as acceptable of a game which storyline was supposed to continue but never did.

I read that another big problem as to why the series fell off the radar had to do with the release of Shenmue 2 worldwide. Outside Japan it was released very quitely, not to mention the PAL region got it pretty much at the very end of the Dreamcast's lifespan, meaning pretty low sales for the game. The US of course got it over a year later and on the XBOX, and barely anybody at the time knew it was out, much less what it was. Again, this hurt sales for the game, pretty much telling Sega that there was no interest in the game. While I believe the game game does not carry the same fanbase numbers as something like Sonic or other really popular Sega franchises, I believe the cult following is big enough to make a commercially successful game, at least up to par with the Yakuza series, which is fairly similar.

The issue you are not getting is the reason why there is no Shemue is because there IS Yakuza, which has proved itself to have consistent legs unlike shenmue. Sega is not the make 4000 different games per day they used to be, they have to rely on the franchises that sell, like Sonic, and their parent company is not even contributing. So until something at Sega sales enough to bring them enough profit to be bringing back games like Phantasy Star, then you will probably not see Shenmue. Heck, Sonic colors and Sonic generations have large fanbases saying he came back and selling quite well yet Sonic 06 still has sold more than both of them combined at least count, and that is also including the secret rings.
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#156 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shenmue_Jehuty"]

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

Maybe the games are just not as popular as fans would like to believe.

Other possible reason would be the incomplete state of the series. Again, fans of the series already would know what to expect, but the mainstream audience might not be as acceptable of a game which storyline was supposed to continue but never did.

The-Pet-Panda

I read that another big problem as to why the series fell off the radar had to do with the release of Shenmue 2 worldwide. Outside Japan it was released very quitely, not to mention the PAL region got it pretty much at the very end of the Dreamcast's lifespan, meaning pretty low sales for the game. The US of course got it over a year later and on the XBOX, and barely anybody at the time knew it was out, much less what it was. Again, this hurt sales for the game, pretty much telling Sega that there was no interest in the game. While I believe the game game does not carry the same fanbase numbers as something like Sonic or other really popular Sega franchises, I believe the cult following is big enough to make a commercially successful game, at least up to par with the Yakuza series, which is fairly similar.

The issue you are not getting is the reason why there is no Shemue is because there IS Yakuza, which has proved itself to have consistent legs unlike shenmue. Sega is not the make 4000 different games per day they used to be, they have to rely on the franchises that sell, like Sonic, and their parent company is not even contributing. So until something at Sega sales enough to bring them enough profit to be bringing back games like Phantasy Star, then you will probably not see Shenmue. Heck, Sonic colors and Sonic generations have large fanbases saying he came back and selling quite well yet Sonic 06 still has sold more than both of them combined at least count, and that is also including the secret rings.

yakuza came out in 2005, the first game. in all those 4 years between there(2001-2005) was no shenmue 3 either. yakuza has nothing to do with sega not releasing shenmue 3.

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#157 Posted by The-Pet-Panda (47 posts) -

[QUOTE="The-Pet-Panda"][QUOTE="Shenmue_Jehuty"]

I read that another big problem as to why the series fell off the radar had to do with the release of Shenmue 2 worldwide. Outside Japan it was released very quitely, not to mention the PAL region got it pretty much at the very end of the Dreamcast's lifespan, meaning pretty low sales for the game. The US of course got it over a year later and on the XBOX, and barely anybody at the time knew it was out, much less what it was. Again, this hurt sales for the game, pretty much telling Sega that there was no interest in the game. While I believe the game game does not carry the same fanbase numbers as something like Sonic or other really popular Sega franchises, I believe the cult following is big enough to make a commercially successful game, at least up to par with the Yakuza series, which is fairly similar.

bultje112

The issue you are not getting is the reason why there is no Shemue is because there IS Yakuza, which has proved itself to have consistent legs unlike shenmue. Sega is not the make 4000 different games per day they used to be, they have to rely on the franchises that sell, like Sonic, and their parent company is not even contributing. So until something at Sega sales enough to bring them enough profit to be bringing back games like Phantasy Star, then you will probably not see Shenmue. Heck, Sonic colors and Sonic generations have large fanbases saying he came back and selling quite well yet Sonic 06 still has sold more than both of them combined at least count, and that is also including the secret rings.

yakuza came out in 2005, the first game. in all those 4 years between there(2001-2005) was no shenmue 3 either. yakuza has nothing to do with sega not releasing shenmue 3.

It has quite a bit to do with it, but you seemed to have omitted all the other reason I listed and misquoted me by making it look like I stated that Yakuza was the primary reason.
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#158 Posted by Seabas989 (13081 posts) -

Maybe it is. I wouldn't put the DC above the PS2, Xbox and GC. But it's not a bad system that could be argued that it's worth owning one.

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#159 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

[QUOTE="bultje112"]

[QUOTE="The-Pet-Panda"] The issue you are not getting is the reason why there is no Shemue is because there IS Yakuza, which has proved itself to have consistent legs unlike shenmue. Sega is not the make 4000 different games per day they used to be, they have to rely on the franchises that sell, like Sonic, and their parent company is not even contributing. So until something at Sega sales enough to bring them enough profit to be bringing back games like Phantasy Star, then you will probably not see Shenmue. Heck, Sonic colors and Sonic generations have large fanbases saying he came back and selling quite well yet Sonic 06 still has sold more than both of them combined at least count, and that is also including the secret rings.The-Pet-Panda

yakuza came out in 2005, the first game. in all those 4 years between there(2001-2005) was no shenmue 3 either. yakuza has nothing to do with sega not releasing shenmue 3.

It has quite a bit to do with it, but you seemed to have omitted all the other reason I listed and misquoted me by making it look like I stated that Yakuza was the primary reason.

your point was that sega were making yakuza and can't make tons of games a year. well between 2001 and 2005, no similar games were released and yu suzuki was literally given nothing to do. so no excuse

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#160 Posted by The-Pet-Panda (47 posts) -

[QUOTE="The-Pet-Panda"][QUOTE="bultje112"]

yakuza came out in 2005, the first game. in all those 4 years between there(2001-2005) was no shenmue 3 either. yakuza has nothing to do with sega not releasing shenmue 3.

bultje112

It has quite a bit to do with it, but you seemed to have omitted all the other reason I listed and misquoted me by making it look like I stated that Yakuza was the primary reason.

your point was that sega were making yakuza and can't make tons of games a year. well between 2001 and 2005, no similar games were released and yu suzuki was literally given nothing to do. so no excuse

What do you mean? Sega was not exactly the most financially sound company 2001 to 2005. Now this gen after 2005 around 2006 or so after Sonic 2006, yeah I would see your point since they even tried reviving Golden Axe.
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#161 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

[QUOTE="bultje112"]

[QUOTE="The-Pet-Panda"] It has quite a bit to do with it, but you seemed to have omitted all the other reason I listed and misquoted me by making it look like I stated that Yakuza was the primary reason.The-Pet-Panda

your point was that sega were making yakuza and can't make tons of games a year. well between 2001 and 2005, no similar games were released and yu suzuki was literally given nothing to do. so no excuse

What do you mean? Sega was not exactly the most financially sound company 2001 to 2005. Now this gen after 2005 around 2006 or so after Sonic 2006, yeah I would see your point since they even tried reviving Golden Axe.

sega from 2001-2005 was in way better shape financially than they were in the mid to late 90s when they were doing shenmue. especially when they merged with sammy and as of today they are a very big company again. to me it seems like they punished yu suzuki somehow, same way nintendo with with motoi(sp?) after the virtual buy, despite him also having made the gameboy

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#162 Posted by Seabas989 (13081 posts) -

[QUOTE="The-Pet-Panda"][QUOTE="bultje112"]

your point was that sega were making yakuza and can't make tons of games a year. well between 2001 and 2005, no similar games were released and yu suzuki was literally given nothing to do. so no excuse

bultje112

What do you mean? Sega was not exactly the most financially sound company 2001 to 2005. Now this gen after 2005 around 2006 or so after Sonic 2006, yeah I would see your point since they even tried reviving Golden Axe.

sega from 2001-2005 was in way better shape financially than they were in the mid to late 90s when they were doing shenmue. especially when they merged with sammy and as of today they are a very big company again. to me it seems like they punished yu suzuki somehow, same way nintendo with with motoi(sp?) after the virtual buy, despite him also having made the gameboy

You are wasting your time. The troll is banned. :lol:

Oh and it's Yokoi that did the virtual boy.

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#163 Posted by deactivated-583d57c5508d3 (246 posts) -

[QUOTE="Los9090"][QUOTE="obenns"] This. I never had a Dreamcast, but from documentaries I've seen it seems pretty good. It brought online multiplayer to the console, and that's a pretty big feat considering where we are now.bultje112

I played it when it first came out and thought it was great. It surprised me when it didn't work out.

pso was really popular and sold quite well, although it deserved to have been a revolution like world of warcraft was. it changed videogaming for good. it changed my life for a few years in that I was addicted to it. after that no mmorpg could capture me like that. not saying that pso is better than those, but it was first and it did so many things right. literally ships with tens of thousands of people online at all the time. my god it was awesome! there are even some online videos of it on youtube and via special servers can still be played online on dreamcast

You talk any more and I'm going to end up buying a Dreamcast!
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#164 Posted by SulIy (113 posts) -
because it's a bull**** rumor. there is no shenmue hd, they haven't ported it or emulated it and I doubt they ever will because what';s the point of angering new fans with an unfinished story?bultje112
Look, I just want to pet and feed the cat, buy the chinese barber shop employee a drink, and try to manipulate the camera to let me look up Nozomi's skirt. I don't think that's too much to ask. ;)
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#165 Posted by SulIy (113 posts) -
I also want to hang around in the Tomato Convenience store and listen to the jingle... for HOURS at a time.
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#166 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

I also want to hang around in the Tomato Convenience store and listen to the jingle... for HOURS at a time.SulIy

any convience store on the face of the earth should play that song 24/7 and the consuming crisis would be over ;)

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#167 Posted by GaussRiemann (249 posts) -

I do not know many games that were ported from Dreamcast to Gamecube or Xbox, only PS2, and from all the games I've read about, the PS2 version was never regarded as good as the Dreamcast version.

From my personal impressions, the PS2 is also sub-par when it comes to 2D graphics.

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#168 Posted by Kaszilla (1841 posts) -

I do not know many games that were ported from Dreamcast to Gamecube or Xbox, only PS2, and from all the games I've read about, the PS2 version was never regarded as good as the Dreamcast version.

From my personal impressions, the PS2 is also sub-par when it comes to 2D graphics.

GaussRiemann
Shenmue--->xbox pso----->xbox and possibly ps2 and gc sonic adventures-----gamecube And I cant put the name in my head but one really good one was ported to the gamecube.
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#169 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

skies of arcadia, although I prefer the dreamcast version with vga and pinta's quest that I found very fun. but if you can get either, no worries. the differences are minimal

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#170 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -
[QUOTE="GaussRiemann"]

I do not know many games that were ported from Dreamcast to Gamecube or Xbox, only PS2, and from all the games I've read about, the PS2 version was never regarded as good as the Dreamcast version.

From my personal impressions, the PS2 is also sub-par when it comes to 2D graphics.

Kaszilla
Shenmue--->xbox pso----->xbox and possibly ps2 and gc sonic adventures-----gamecube And I cant put the name in my head but one really good one was ported to the gamecube.

youre thinking of Shenmue 2 , and quite frankly I prefer the Dreamcast version , the voice acting in the Xbox version is awful , its even worse than the first game in that regard.
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#171 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

[QUOTE="Kaszilla"][QUOTE="GaussRiemann"]

I do not know many games that were ported from Dreamcast to Gamecube or Xbox, only PS2, and from all the games I've read about, the PS2 version was never regarded as good as the Dreamcast version.

From my personal impressions, the PS2 is also sub-par when it comes to 2D graphics.

Darkman2007

Shenmue--->xbox pso----->xbox and possibly ps2 and gc sonic adventures-----gamecube And I cant put the name in my head but one really good one was ported to the gamecube.

youre thinking of Shenmue 2 , and quite frankly I prefer the Dreamcast version , the voice acting in the Xbox version is awful , its even worse than the first game in that regard.

also you can't bring over your sehnmue 1 save file to shenmue 2 on the xbox, which is a huge deal to me, having collected so much and trained so much and there are also numerous moves missing if you didn't play 1. also on vga it looks better than xbox

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#172 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Kaszilla"] Shenmue--->xbox pso----->xbox and possibly ps2 and gc sonic adventures-----gamecube And I cant put the name in my head but one really good one was ported to the gamecube.bultje112

youre thinking of Shenmue 2 , and quite frankly I prefer the Dreamcast version , the voice acting in the Xbox version is awful , its even worse than the first game in that regard.

also you can't bring over your sehnmue 1 save file to shenmue 2 on the xbox, which is a huge deal to me, having collected so much and trained so much and there are also numerous moves missing if you didn't play 1. also on vga it looks better than xbox

in defense of the Xbox version , it does look somewhat better, but from what I remember, it wasn't a night and day difference, and actually VGA on the Dreamcast makes visually better in that way at least.
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#174 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -
[QUOTE="bultje112"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] youre thinking of Shenmue 2 , and quite frankly I prefer the Dreamcast version , the voice acting in the Xbox version is awful , its even worse than the first game in that regard.Darkman2007

also you can't bring over your sehnmue 1 save file to shenmue 2 on the xbox, which is a huge deal to me, having collected so much and trained so much and there are also numerous moves missing if you didn't play 1. also on vga it looks better than xbox

in defense of the Xbox version , it does look somewhat better, but from what I remember, it wasn't a night and day difference, and actually VGA on the Dreamcast makes visually better in that way at least.

The Xbox one looks a bit muddy, but in ways I prefer it for the 5.1 sound.
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#175 Posted by VanDammFan (4714 posts) -

bought one at at launch.."as I always do"..but never cared for it..had some neat features but as far as games??..nothing much for me..Still have it in my collection though. They just never had a must have game to me..AND the 4-5 top rated games I just never cared for..

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#176 Posted by godzillavskong (7904 posts) -
Most of it's significant games have been harvested to other platforms by now. The only game remaining on the system that makes it truly special for me is the original Shenmue. Shenmue 2 was ported to the first Xbox, but the first remains Dreamcast only. Oddly, all the attempts by Sega to get DC games back out to consumers have avoided this one title. I really hope both games get digital downloads on the major systems in the next few years, I'd love to see it on Wii U since the gamepad could replicate a VMU screen.SulIy
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually prefer playing the original games on their original platform. Something about firing up RECV on the Dreamcast just brings back so many memories.
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#177 Posted by godzillavskong (7904 posts) -
[QUOTE="bultje112"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] youre thinking of Shenmue 2 , and quite frankly I prefer the Dreamcast version , the voice acting in the Xbox version is awful , its even worse than the first game in that regard.Darkman2007

also you can't bring over your sehnmue 1 save file to shenmue 2 on the xbox, which is a huge deal to me, having collected so much and trained so much and there are also numerous moves missing if you didn't play 1. also on vga it looks better than xbox

Exactly. in defense of the Xbox version , it does look somewhat better, but from what I remember, it wasn't a night and day difference, and actually VGA on the Dreamcast makes visually better in that way at least.

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#178 Posted by bultje112 (1868 posts) -

also the many ports isn't entirely true. most games were multi plats on n64 and psx, where dreamcats was by far the more superior version, look at tony hawk, rush, shadowman and countless other examples. all ps2 multiports, although less significant also looked better on dreamcast and via vga a lot better, ecco, crazy taxi, virtua tennis 2, f355 etc

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#179 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -

also the many ports isn't entirely true. most games were multi plats on n64 and psx, where dreamcats was by far the more superior version, look at tony hawk, rush, shadowman and countless other examples. all ps2 multiports, although less significant also looked better on dreamcast and via vga a lot better, ecco, crazy taxi, virtua tennis 2, f355 etc

bultje112
Ive said that numerous times on this forum that, because of the VGA, Dreamcast games looked better than most ps2 games. ...with some exceptions of course.
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#180 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -
[QUOTE="bultje112"]

also the many ports isn't entirely true. most games were multi plats on n64 and psx, where dreamcats was by far the more superior version, look at tony hawk, rush, shadowman and countless other examples. all ps2 multiports, although less significant also looked better on dreamcast and via vga a lot better, ecco, crazy taxi, virtua tennis 2, f355 etc

Heirren
Ive said that numerous times on this forum that, because of the VGA, Dreamcast games looked better than most ps2 games. ...with some exceptions of course.

Dreamcast is the better system in some ways from a technical standpoint too.
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#181 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -
[QUOTE="Heirren"][QUOTE="bultje112"]

also the many ports isn't entirely true. most games were multi plats on n64 and psx, where dreamcats was by far the more superior version, look at tony hawk, rush, shadowman and countless other examples. all ps2 multiports, although less significant also looked better on dreamcast and via vga a lot better, ecco, crazy taxi, virtua tennis 2, f355 etc

Darkman2007
Ive said that numerous times on this forum that, because of the VGA, Dreamcast games looked better than most ps2 games. ...with some exceptions of course.

Dreamcast is the better system in some ways from a technical standpoint too.

What would those be? See, I can deal with more primitive graphics. A good looking game IMO is one which utilizes the hardware it runs on to good effect. Dc games for the most part have a good look to them. Ps2 games , on the other hand, usually looked very muddy and washed out. ....GT4 was impressive though.
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#182 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -
[QUOTE="Heirren"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Heirren"] Ive said that numerous times on this forum that, because of the VGA, Dreamcast games looked better than most ps2 games. ...with some exceptions of course.

Dreamcast is the better system in some ways from a technical standpoint too.

What would those be? See, I can deal with more primitive graphics. A good looking game IMO is one which utilizes the hardware it runs on to good effect. Dc games for the most part have a good look to them. Ps2 games , on the other hand, usually looked very muddy and washed out. ....GT4 was impressive though.

the most important advantage? the PS2 was notoriously hard to work with , its missing some key effects in hardware (meaning it has to be done in software via the vector units), developers obviously had to work with it because it was popular, but the Dreamcast, GC and Xbox were better designed. the Dreamcast by comparison was much better designed, and its arguable that had Sony pushed it instead of the PS2, it would have seen some very nice results from it. there is also the aliasing issues the PS2 had which the Dreamcast doesn't, also the Dreamcast has more VRAM (PS2 has more RAM in general though) its quite ironic though , Sega went from a multi processor console that relies on CPU grunt , to a simple clean design , while Sony went from a simple, clean design to a complex console.
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#183 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -
DC being a simplified platform is not ironic at all, is it? Sega did this because having Saturn being a very complex system, in ways, cost them that generation.
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#184 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -
DC being a simplified platform is not ironic at all, is it? Sega did this because having Saturn being a very complex system, in ways, cost them that generation. Heirren
its ironic that Sony went in the opposite direction, and kept going in that direction with the PS3 (which on the one hand has issues with the GPU vs the 360 , while on the other it has an unknown CPU) the hardware issues were one thing, but it obviously wasn't the only issue (like I said , the PS2 wasn't a good system, and its still the best selling system in history) where it did hurt was when the PS1 started outselling the Saturn , meaning games were going to be ported over (not smart in the case of the Saturn , where the games are slaves to the hardware)
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#185 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -
[QUOTE="Heirren"]DC being a simplified platform is not ironic at all, is it? Sega did this because having Saturn being a very complex system, in ways, cost them that generation. Darkman2007
its ironic that Sony went in the opposite direction, and kept going in that direction with the PS3 (which on the one hand has issues with the GPU vs the 360 , while on the other it has an unknown CPU) the hardware issues were one thing, but it obviously wasn't the only issue (like I said , the PS2 wasn't a good system, and its still the best selling system in history) where it did hurt was when the PS1 started outselling the Saturn , meaning games were going to be ported over (not smart in the case of the Saturn , where the games are slaves to the hardware)

What if Sony doing that was a strategy? A ballsy one, perhaps, gambling on hype alone from the original Playstation. I don't think I'd call the ps2 a bad system though. GT4 and MGS3 are two of the best looking games of that gen IMO. The ps2 is a bad system in the instant that the library is just more of the same. Microsoft really took the risks that gen and it payed off if you look at the current console situation. People will disagree, but in a lot of ways ms won that generation. Over the course of the original Xbox, a lot of gamers saw what they were doing and the more advanced features of the Xbox. Even though, in hindsight, I think GameCube has the most quality games that have stood the test of time, it was the Xbox that offered the true next gen experience--new game genres, game updates, Xbox live, hdd, custom soundtracks, and discrete Dolby 5.1.
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#186 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Heirren"]DC being a simplified platform is not ironic at all, is it? Sega did this because having Saturn being a very complex system, in ways, cost them that generation. Heirren
its ironic that Sony went in the opposite direction, and kept going in that direction with the PS3 (which on the one hand has issues with the GPU vs the 360 , while on the other it has an unknown CPU) the hardware issues were one thing, but it obviously wasn't the only issue (like I said , the PS2 wasn't a good system, and its still the best selling system in history) where it did hurt was when the PS1 started outselling the Saturn , meaning games were going to be ported over (not smart in the case of the Saturn , where the games are slaves to the hardware)

What if Sony doing that was a strategy? A ballsy one, perhaps, gambling on hype alone from the original Playstation. I don't think I'd call the ps2 a bad system though. GT4 and MGS3 are two of the best looking games of that gen IMO. The ps2 is a bad system in the instant that the library is just more of the same. Microsoft really took the risks that gen and it payed off if you look at the current console situation. People will disagree, but in a lot of ways ms won that generation. Over the course of the original Xbox, a lot of gamers saw what they were doing and the more advanced features of the Xbox. Even though, in hindsight, I think GameCube has the most quality games that have stood the test of time, it was the Xbox that offered the true next gen experience--new game genres, game updates, Xbox live, hdd, custom soundtracks, and discrete Dolby 5.1.

oh Im not saying the PS2 can't create good looking games, it obviously can , , it just took more effort.
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#187 Posted by Ilovegames1992 (14221 posts) -

Never actually played the Dreamcast. Didn't appeal to me.

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#189 Posted by TheKungFool (5384 posts) -

I don't think the DreamCast was technically bad system, and i understand why many people really like it........
but for me personally, it was a huge dissapointment.

my personal and subjective criteria for being dissapointed by the DreamCast:

1) LACKED MY FAVORITE SEGA SERIES
no panzer dragoon.
no shinobi.
no shining force.
no golden axe.
no phantasy star. (by this I mean a REAL phantasy star in traditional rpg form...PSO was okay, but not what I wanted in a next-gen phantasy star)
no nights.
now, granted, the DreamCast run was cut horribly short, and some of these may have shown up down the road had the DC lasted longer, but regardless, at the end of the day, the DreamCast simply didn't have my favorite sega series on it.
oddly enough, all of those series ended up with releases on other platforms after the DC died (I'm not sure if they were originally "planned" as DC releases or not)

2) NO BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY
now, perhaps someone can provide me some sort of technical reason why back-comp would have been difficult or even impossible, but i still say thats simpliy a design error on Sega's part (personal opinion only). i just think that given the fiascos and bad history of the SegaCD/Saturn etc... Sega needed to convice me that they cared about the fans that spent money and time on those other platforms.....
...not to mention that having SegaCD/Saturn titles playable on the DreamCast would have given it a better available library.
hell, it didn't even have to be back-comp, they could have just re-released 15-20 of the best Saturn titles reworked/ported/converted and that would have given people a better starting library

3) HORRIBLE PADDLE
no idea what the deal here was, but the DreamCast paddle was awful. Not as bad as the N64's mind you, but still pretty damn bad.
the D-pad, important for 2D fighters, shmups and the like, was sharp and uncomfortable.
the analog stick seemed in an awkward position.
the cord was poorly placed, with that silly clip to hold it where it should have come out from lol.
the choice to go with a single analog after PSone had already made dual analog a standard was an odd choice aswell imo.
and of course, the paddle was just generally not very ergonomic.

4) LACK OF RPGS
this obviously isn't any concern to non-rpg gamers, but for me personally, its my #1 genre of interest, and the DreamCast was relatively barren of quality rpgs.
other than "skies of arcadia" and "grandia II", there isn't much to recommend. "Record of Lodoss War", "Evolutions I & II", "Time Stalkers" and such were mediocre at very best, and "phantsy star online", while technically an rpg I guess, certainly wasn't a traditional rpg experience.

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#190 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -

I don't think the DreamCast was technically bad system, and i understand why many people really like it........
but for me personally, it was a huge dissapointment.

my personal and subjective criteria for being dissapointed by the DreamCast:

1) LACKED MY FAVORITE SEGA SERIES
no panzer dragoon.
no shinobi.
no shining force.
no golden axe.
no phantasy star. (by this I mean a REAL phantasy star in traditional rpg form...PSO was okay, but not what I wanted in a next-gen phantasy star)
no nights.
now, granted, the DreamCast run was cut horribly short, and some of these may have shown up down the road had the DC lasted longer, but regardless, at the end of the day, the DreamCast simply didn't have my favorite sega series on it.
oddly enough, all of those series ended up with releases on other platforms after the DC died (I'm not sure if they were originally "planned" as DC releases or not)

2) NO BACKWARDS COMPATIBILITY
now, perhaps someone can provide me some sort of technical reason why back-comp would have been difficult or even impossible, but i still say thats simpliy a design error on Sega's part (personal opinion only). i just think that given the fiascos and bad history of the SegaCD/Saturn etc... Sega needed to convice me that they cared about the fans that spent money and time on those other platforms.....
...not to mention that having SegaCD/Saturn titles playable on the DreamCast would have given it a better available library.
hell, it didn't even have to be back-comp, they could have just re-released 15-20 of the best Saturn titles reworked/ported/converted and that would have given people a better starting library

3) HORRIBLE PADDLE
no idea what the deal here was, but the DreamCast paddle was awful. Not as bad as the N64's mind you, but still pretty damn bad.

the D-pad, important for 2D fighters, shmups and the like, was sharp and uncomfortable.
the analog stick seemed in an awkward position.
the cord was poorly placed, with that silly clip to hold it where it should have come out from lol.
the choice to go with a single analog after PSone had already made dual analog a standard was an odd choice aswell imo.
and of course, the paddle was just generally not very ergonomic.

4) LACK OF RPGS
this obviously isn't any concern to non-rpg gamers, but for me personally, its my #1 genre of interest, and the DreamCast was relatively barren of quality rpgs.
other than "skies of arcadia" and "grandia II", there isn't much to recommend. "Record of Lodoss War", "Evolutions I & II", "Time Stalkers" and such were mediocre at very best, and "phantsy star online", while technically an rpg I guess, certainly wasn't a traditional rpg experience.

TheKungFool

funny thing I noticed regarding the controller, just recently I got (as a gift no less) ,Bleemcast MGS , and on thing I noticed is that the analog controls are just not quite as good as the original PS1 pad, theres just something about the analog stick that feels......loose , like there is less resistance than their should be.

as for backwards compatibility, it wouldn't have worked, certainly not with Saturn games, they shared almost nothing in common (though interestingly the CPUs were from the same series, the Saturn had twin Hitachi SH2 CPUs at 25Mhz each , DC had a single SH4 at 200Mhz) but doing backwards compatibility would have been impossible, at least not at that price point (emulation , likewise, would have been near impossible, I think there is a Saturn emulator for the Dreamcast, and I think it runs at about 3 fps)

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#191 Posted by TheKungFool (5384 posts) -

as for backwards compatibility, it wouldn't have worked, certainly not with Saturn games, they shared almost nothing in common (though interestingly the CPUs were from the same series, the Saturn had twin Hitachi SH2 CPUs at 25Mhz each , DC had a single SH4 at 200Mhz) but doing backwards compatibility would have been impossible, at least not at that price point (emulation , likewise, would have been near impossible, I think there is a Saturn emulator for the Dreamcast, and I think it runs at about 3 fps)

Darkman2007



I still don't think that lets SEGA off the hook for what I personally feel is an unofortunate lack of forsight.

If Nintendo and Sony can consistently make thier older titles re-workable and playable on future systems (either by emulation, back-comp, re-release etc) then there really isn't in my mind an excuse for why Sega's Saturn titles couldn't have been designed that way.
I mean, SEGA managed to have so many SMS & SGEN titles on download format or collection discs, and then so many DreamCast games either ported from the PS1 or ported to the PS2 ect......its just really a shame that Saturn titles are so unfortunately locked on only that platform.

so my question is.....is it just the Saturn's own game engine that makes its games so impossible to replicate?

I mean, if SEGA was able to bring out a "Saturn Collection" similar to the "Ultimate Genesis Collection", hell bro, I'd pre-order the damn thing for $100 right now!! LOL

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#192 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

as for backwards compatibility, it wouldn't have worked, certainly not with Saturn games, they shared almost nothing in common (though interestingly the CPUs were from the same series, the Saturn had twin Hitachi SH2 CPUs at 25Mhz each , DC had a single SH4 at 200Mhz) but doing backwards compatibility would have been impossible, at least not at that price point (emulation , likewise, would have been near impossible, I think there is a Saturn emulator for the Dreamcast, and I think it runs at about 3 fps)

TheKungFool



I still don't think that lets SEGA off the hook for what I personally feel is an unofortunate lack of forsight.

If Nintendo and Sony can consistently make thier older titles re-workable and playable on future systems (either by emulation, back-comp, re-release etc) then there really isn't in my mind an excuse for why Sega's Saturn titles couldn't have been designed that way.
I mean, SEGA managed to have so many SMS & SGEN titles on download format or collection discs, and then so many DreamCast games either ported from the PS1 or ported to the PS2 ect......its just really a shame that Saturn titles are so unfortunately locked on only that platform.

so my question is.....is it just the Saturn's own game engine that makes its games so impossible to replicate?

I mean, if SEGA was able to bring out a "Saturn Collection" similar to the "Ultimate Genesis Collection", hell bro, I'd pre-order the damn thing for $100 right now!! LOL

well with the PS2 and Wii for instance it was different, the PS2 had some of the PS1's hardware in it (all condensed into a single chip I think) , while the Wii was more or less a Gamecube with more RAM and a faster CPU , so it had no issues with GC games, the PS3 does it via emulation , but its capable enough (note how bad the emulation of the PS2 games was, once Sony stopped making the hardware BC PS3s) the Dreamcast doesn't have that benefit, , it didn't share anything really with the Saturn , and including the Saturn hardware would have been too costly (remember the DC was designed in 97/98 , and the Saturn had more in it than the PS1, ie more to put on the board, and higher cost, by 2000 , the PS1 cost relatively little) emulation isn't an option as I said, its just not capable enough (emulating the PS1 is different, theres less to emulate for one) , you could certainly have ports of games, but then you wouldn't be getting compilations, since porting individual games is more costly than just creating an emulator to run all the games. what you could, and did have , were Mega Drive compilations, as the DC was more than capable of Mega Drive emulation, Mega CD I suppose would be there as well (but then youre again , dealing with more things)
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#193 Posted by godzillavskong (7904 posts) -
[QUOTE="Heirren"][QUOTE="bultje112"]

also the many ports isn't entirely true. most games were multi plats on n64 and psx, where dreamcats was by far the more superior version, look at tony hawk, rush, shadowman and countless other examples. all ps2 multiports, although less significant also looked better on dreamcast and via vga a lot better, ecco, crazy taxi, virtua tennis 2, f355 etc

Darkman2007
Ive said that numerous times on this forum that, because of the VGA, Dreamcast games looked better than most ps2 games. ...with some exceptions of course.

Dreamcast is the better system in some ways from a technical standpoint too.

Yeah. The Dreamcast fell victim to a lot of lazy, rushed ps1, or n64 ports, that didn't even take advantage of 50% of its power. I applaud Capcom for some of the love they gave the Dreamcast(RECV, Powerstone1, & 2, MVC series)
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#194 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -
[QUOTE="godzillavskong"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Heirren"] Ive said that numerous times on this forum that, because of the VGA, Dreamcast games looked better than most ps2 games. ...with some exceptions of course.

Dreamcast is the better system in some ways from a technical standpoint too.

Yeah. The Dreamcast fell victim to a lot of lazy, rushed ps1, or n64 ports, that didn't even take advantage of 50% of its power. I applaud Capcom for some of the love they gave the Dreamcast(RECV, Powerstone1, & 2, MVC series)

Capcom were also the ones who ported RE2 and 3 , not the best ports Id say. well , to be precise those are actually ports of the PC versions, which themselves are ports from the PS1.
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#195 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -
[QUOTE="godzillavskong"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Heirren"] Ive said that numerous times on this forum that, because of the VGA, Dreamcast games looked better than most ps2 games. ...with some exceptions of course.

Dreamcast is the better system in some ways from a technical standpoint too.

Yeah. The Dreamcast fell victim to a lot of lazy, rushed ps1, or n64 ports, that didn't even take advantage of 50% of its power. I applaud Capcom for some of the love they gave the Dreamcast(RECV, Powerstone1, & 2, MVC series)

I'd say it also fell victim to a lot of arrogant, short sighted gamers hung up on the Playstation name, alone.
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#196 Posted by Emerald_Warrior (6581 posts) -

[QUOTE="godzillavskong"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] Dreamcast is the better system in some ways from a technical standpoint too.Heirren
Yeah. The Dreamcast fell victim to a lot of lazy, rushed ps1, or n64 ports, that didn't even take advantage of 50% of its power. I applaud Capcom for some of the love they gave the Dreamcast(RECV, Powerstone1, & 2, MVC series)

I'd say it also fell victim to a lot of arrogant, short sighted gamers hung up on the Playstation name, alone.

I remember the DVD movie playback ability in the PS2 had a LOT to do with it. Back in 2001, DVD players were still pretty expensive. So getting a state-of-the-art (at the time) game console and a DVD player in one, for one price, was a heckuva deal for a lot of people.

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#197 Posted by logicalfrank (1686 posts) -

[QUOTE="Heirren"][QUOTE="godzillavskong"] Yeah. The Dreamcast fell victim to a lot of lazy, rushed ps1, or n64 ports, that didn't even take advantage of 50% of its power. I applaud Capcom for some of the love they gave the Dreamcast(RECV, Powerstone1, & 2, MVC series)Emerald_Warrior

I'd say it also fell victim to a lot of arrogant, short sighted gamers hung up on the Playstation name, alone.

I remember the DVD movie playback ability in the PS2 had a LOT to do with it. Back in 2001, DVD players were still pretty expensive. So getting a state-of-the-art (at the time) game console and a DVD player in one, for one price, was a heckuva deal for a lot of people.

I agree. DVD playback was huge. I think it was actually cheaper than most DVD players at the time.

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#198 Posted by Darkman2007 (17928 posts) -

[QUOTE="Emerald_Warrior"]

[QUOTE="Heirren"] I'd say it also fell victim to a lot of arrogant, short sighted gamers hung up on the Playstation name, alone.logicalfrank

I remember the DVD movie playback ability in the PS2 had a LOT to do with it. Back in 2001, DVD players were still pretty expensive. So getting a state-of-the-art (at the time) game console and a DVD player in one, for one price, was a heckuva deal for a lot of people.

I agree. DVD playback was huge. I think it was actually cheaper than most DVD players at the time.

not necessarily cheaper , but you got a game system in the process, one that played PS1 games too, that made it the better deal obviously.
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#199 Posted by deactivated-57ad0e5285d73 (21398 posts) -

[QUOTE="Heirren"][QUOTE="godzillavskong"] Yeah. The Dreamcast fell victim to a lot of lazy, rushed ps1, or n64 ports, that didn't even take advantage of 50% of its power. I applaud Capcom for some of the love they gave the Dreamcast(RECV, Powerstone1, & 2, MVC series)Emerald_Warrior

I'd say it also fell victim to a lot of arrogant, short sighted gamers hung up on the Playstation name, alone.

I remember the DVD movie playback ability in the PS2 had a LOT to do with it. Back in 2001, DVD players were still pretty expensive. So getting a state-of-the-art (at the time) game console and a DVD player in one, for one price, was a heckuva deal for a lot of people.

Yeah, that's also true. Now I could be wrong, but I also remember not all DVD players being progressive scan back then, which ps2 did.
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#200 Posted by godzillavskong (7904 posts) -
[QUOTE="Emerald_Warrior"]

[QUOTE="Heirren"] I'd say it also fell victim to a lot of arrogant, short sighted gamers hung up on the Playstation name, alone.Heirren

I remember the DVD movie playback ability in the PS2 had a LOT to do with it. Back in 2001, DVD players were still pretty expensive. So getting a state-of-the-art (at the time) game console and a DVD player in one, for one price, was a heckuva deal for a lot of people.

Yeah, that's also true. Now I could be wrong, but I also remember not all DVD players being progressive scan back then, which ps2 did.

Yeah, the PS2 offered a lot out of the box, with DVD playback, and b/c , which wooed gamers to their system.