RPG's that aren't really RPG's ?

So I was browsing old threads as to whether Zelda is an RPG or at the very least an Action RPG, and overall the general consensus, was it was primarily an Action Adventure with incredibly light RPG Element's.

Points that were noted were..

* Limited choices of play compared to most RPG's

* No levelling up (although gaining a heart has been noted as a vague substitute)

* No general stat's

* No Item's that boost stat's, (the items in Zelda games typically aid in solving puzzles/navigating world)

* No real Role paying

Although certain elements are there in the form of dungeon crawling, open ended world design, trying to pass off Zelda as an RPG is as pretentiously hollow as Metal heads trying pass off Metal as the companion to western classical. It's no more or even less of an RPG as games like God Of War, Darksiders, Symphony Of The Night, or even COD multiplayer (I've actually heard a few people credit the class system)

However a few comment's caught my attention, they could be interpreted as snark comment's claiming that "It's not an RPG but Zelda is more of an RPG than 99% of today's supposed "WRPG'S". I found this be quite interesting, I've come across people who have discredited Skyrim and Fallout 3 as RPG's although these guys were most likely old school fans of the franchise.

So my question is to you JRPG/WRPG fan's, what are some games that have been branded RPG's that you really don't consider to be RPG's ?

Oblivion and Skyrim kind of bother me. I mean, sure, the game has stats, but a lot of those stats, like lockpicking, are completely useless, and the level scaling really makes the whole system kind of pointless anyway. I just wish those games would go all in on action/adventure and leave the RPG elements at the door. They could make the enemies, combat, and story a whole lot more interesting if they went that route rather than going with an enormous sandbox with what amount to mini-rpgs to play.

Mass Effect 2 and 3.

Yea, when I played Oblivion I think I looked at the stats page like once. That's what they want though, you to jump into the world and just play without having to worry about any of that RPG stuff like stats, ect..)

Totally agree with PurpleMan…I've always said they should concentrate on the combat/gameplay more and streamline everything unnecessary out of the game. I'd love it if Bethesda just dropped their lame RPG elements entirely and make an open-world action-adventure game with good combat and maybe some magic.

They're trying to please too many ppl and in the end we know how that turns out. A game not deep enough/too casual for serious RPG fans and one who's gameplay isn't good enough for action fans.

But this is their way of thinking...

"An action game for casual gamers sold as an RPG! Brilliant! Why brilliant? Well, any complaints about the action elements would be met with "It's an RPG! Duh!", while any complaints about the RPG elements would be met with "It's not your grandpa's RPG with die rolls and skill checks. It's an action game! For next generation! Duh!"

It almost feels like the (bad) RPG mechanics are sort of an excuse for the bad combat and vice versa.

Almost the entirity of the JRPG sub genre.

Mass Effect 2 and 3. They are epic games but the RPG elements are light and is like calling Grand Theft Auto a RPG

Is Jrpgs really RPGs? You often do zero roleplaying and have zero to none influence over your characters personality and choices(besides stats if at that).

Zelda is not an RPG.

Here's a great example: Fable 2

Don't get me wrong, I love Fable 2 for many reasons, but it is the most atrocious attempt at an "RPG" I've seen. Your items, aside from your weapons, have no real impact on your performance in the game, and even though you get to choose what to use your "skill points on", it doesn't matter, because you can GET EVERY SKILL AT THE END OF THE GAME. The only thing reminiscent of "RPG" in Fable 2 would be the fact that yes, you do collect experience, and you do get to make choices, but that's it. The game is mostly scripted, there is no math required in building a good character, no character will end up statistically different from another, and the gameplay is very actiony,very Zelda-like.

Role Playing isn't even a real genre. Its more like a formula. I'm pretty sure if you strip all Role Playing Elements from any Role Playing they'l be enough of something left over squeeze into an actuall genre.

As for whether something is a Role Playing game or not, depends on the magnitude.

There's always a debate about this, and it's pointless because it's not really a genre. Take away all the RPG elements from any RPG, and you got an action/adventure game, or a strategy game depending on whether it's real time combat or turn based. A Role Playing element is just an extra thing you add on top of the game you already have. It's like a hot sauce, it spices things up. It's not all about the action, but also about building a certain character that will change up the experience you're having with the game.

What kind of choices do you mean? If you mean narrative choices, then that's a visual novel element, not RPG element. If you mean gameplay choices, then the stats should be what defines how your character performs in the gameplay for it to be a role-playing game. In most RPG's, the role-playing is usually limited to combat. In some RPG's, the role-playing extends beyond combat. Either way, the essence of a role-playing game is how the role you chose, through how you developed your character stats, affects the gameplay.

^ Excellent ^

Good to see I'm not the only who sees this. Its actually the 1st time I hear it from somebody else. About time ! :p

@Lulu_Lulu:

what are you talking about lulu? he described exactly what me and wiounds are talking about: character choices, character development and gameplay customization.

When other people say gameplay cusomization and character developement they mean numbers, stats and atrributes.

I assumed you did too.

Everytime a developer tries to implemient these things in a mechanical way people say they are not "true RPG Elements"

For things like character and gameplay customization I want actuall abilities and skills, represented in a mechanical way. it would be pretty cool if you had a blank slate type character and you attach mechanics to him/her instead of assinging points, Kind of like in Batman, most of the upgrades don't change the any of his stats. It changes the way you play it. Trine is Like that too in away.

But nobody wants that. They just want numbers numbers numbers: " look !I made a Mage, you can tell by how high his faith attribute is."

or

"I convinced Wrex to calm down on virmire"

"Really ?.... How ?"

"By assigning enough skill points to shepards Charm/Intimidate attribute :p "

Speaking of Mass Effect, theres a simular encounter in Heavy Rain... You gotta talk down a a guy with a gun, but unlike Mass Effect theres no numbers, you actually have to pay attention. In RPGs, take comforted in any choice that requires you to meet statistical requirements will always lead to favourable results whether you understand the scenario or not.

Something Ken Levine needs to keep in mind before he gets to work on his open ended narrative game.

Wait.... What were we talking about again.

@Lulu_Lulu:

lol, ah, so i'm not the only one!

Ofcourse not. But we are few. :(