Rockstar Finally Appeals Manhunt Ban PLUS Take Two Chairman responds to AO

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I tell myself to not get my hopes up but man I am truly hoping this gets worked out in way that maintains the integrity of what the developers invisioned for the game. I am curious to see how this pans out. Apparently, it took almost six weeks for Rockstar to get their appeal together. I interested in what would have taken so long for them to do that. Nevertheless, In the next couple of weeks we should soon see the outcome of what I think is one of the worst things to ever happen. But that's just me.

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I tell myself to not get my hopes up but man I am truly hoping this gets worked out in way that maintains the integrity of what the developers invisioned for the game. I am curious to see how this pans out. Apparently, it took almost six weeks for Rockstar to get their appeal together. I interested in what would have taken so long for them to do that. Nevertheless, In the next couple of weeks we should soon see the outcome of what I think is one of the worst things to ever happen. But that's just me.

juradai

Now would be a good time to pimp DON'T FEED THE GAMERS, Smitty :) But yeah - for some reason I thought that the appeal had to be filed within 30 days of the original ruling. I'm hoping that either this is not the case, or Rockstar did file the appeal and is only now making the public announcement. It's not that I necessarily want to see the nastiest of the nasty stuff in Manhunt 2, but I'd like for the game to come out as the developers originally intended.

Now would be a good time to pimp DON'T FEED THE GAMERS, Smitty :) But yeah - for some reason I thought that the appeal had to be filed within 30 days of the original ruling. I'm hoping that either this is not the case, or Rockstar did file the appeal and is only now making the public announcement. It's not that I necessarily want to see the nastiest of the nasty stuff in Manhunt 2, but I'd like for the game to come out as the developers originally intended.

MrCHUP0N

I probably should have plugged Don't Feed The Gamers but I was so filled with motivation to remind all of us that we shouldn't forget what is happening that I seemed to have overlooked it.

I thought that they only had 30 days also but I think it is six weeks. In the article it states that Rockstar took almost the full six weeks allowed to formulate their rebutle.

Which leads me to presume that they had six weeks and not 30 days. 30 days is a little too short in my opinion but I had always thought that was the time period in which they had to respond as well.

this right here should be the biggest thing to watch in the industry... Rockstar is trying to accomplish in gaming what Rap did for music... the ability to express yourself whatever way you want to.smerlus

if Rockstar can pull it off, I will be truly impressed. You have to give it to them that they aren't backing down and I applaud their efforts to stay strong.

I don't find Manhunt particularly interesting asnd some of it is pretty nasty but in the words of Voltaire, "I do not agree with what you say sir, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."Eldramesha

I wish alot of people shared your thoughts but that isnt the case. Several people I have spoken with think just because the content doesnt agree with them that it needs to be banned. it's nice to hear those that are objective enough to state their stance but then understand that the issue is bigger than just a game. Good man.;)

After i have seen and read about Manhunt 2. I think that Rockstar have gone to fare this time, especially with the Wii remote system in mind.

Ban this game

After i have seen and read about Manhunt 2. I think that Rockstar have gone to fare this time, especially with the Wii remote system in mind.

Ban this game

SaintRasmus

I'm not agreeing with the banning, but as another poster had mentioned with the rap music and expressing one's self type thing, if you don't like it, simply don't buy it.

Wow, this is history in the making. We have someone or something challenging the standards of society. Freedom of speech? This most definitely has something to do with it.

Good luck Rockstar.

To those who don't like MH2. As said before, DON'T BUY IT. How'd you like it if we banned say... bananas just because WE DON'T LIKE IT. It's ridiculous. You don't like it? YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY IT. Stop acting like you don't have that choice. Just because they sell inflatable pikachu dolls doesn't mean I have to buy it.

After i have seen and read about Manhunt 2. I think that Rockstar have gone to fare this time, especially with the Wii remote system in mind.

Ban this game

SaintRasmus

The problem with your statement is that you're preventing me from potentially purchasing something I may think I can handle, that isn't detrimental to me and that ultimately isn't truly detrimental to society in general (unless we are to irresponsibly place blame on software and not the appropriate guiding forces in our lives). If you don't want it, don't buy it. Don't insinuate to me that I can't - this is in essence what banning does.

Dont worry,soon all those old farts will die out and our generation will not waste their time with useless debates about videogame affecting our children because children are already affected by it through school,tv,radio, etcPapaSmurf831

I only wish that were true. After video games it will be another form of media. History has shown that there is always someone that will try to create limitations on things that they feel is going too far. I never understood that way of thinking myself because I find that kind of mindset is incredibly pretentious not to mention just flat out wrong.

All the other mediums have gone through this and have been successful because they did not stand for these types of restrictions. Movies went through, music went through it... twice I think. Once with rock and again with rap. Now video games are going through it.

If we can weather this storm and prevent others that have no involvement in our hobby to set rules and restrictions then we are far better off as a culture. I think it is time that we allow our presence to be felt a little more in the real world and show that we aren't just a bunch of knuckle heads playing games who don't stand up for themselves and have no opinion or say about the one thing we love to do. When I see Rockstar stand up for themselves I see them as also representing each of us, too. In my eyes at least.

After i have seen and read about Manhunt 2. I think that Rockstar have gone to fare this time, especially with the Wii remote system in mind.

Ban this game

SaintRasmus

Why is it any different when its with the Wii controller? It's still just fictional stuff happening on a tv screen. Also, you might think that this game should be banned because its too much for you, but its just unfair that because a minority want the game banned, the majority has to suffer.

the wii remote is better for a game like this than a controller as it realeses more agression than pushing buttons

But i'm pleased that rockstar have tried again and if they get jack thompson to sue them again we might not see that annoying twit again so rockstar get onto the shelves

I hope they nail it, this is history in the making. %^&* censorship.GodModeEnabled

lets push these censorship lovingmolly cuddling suitsback give us freedom to know the truth about what is going on in the world.

well censorship works in chains so if they get this on the shelves lets hope we get the same thing with this if it does happen i will be laughing in the face of every single person who wanted i out of reach of the public.

i want to see what private eye have to say about it if theydo say something they had a cartoon about the ps3 that please insert credit card

To some extent what is going on with video games right now parallels the Comics Code used by the Graphic Novel industry from the 50s into the 70s. Note when it started there was a huge anticommunist hysteria and anything remotely edgy was cut bad. They went too far with that but in the end things recovered. Even if Rockstar does not succeed with Manhunt, someone will with some game down the road.

I still don't see why it is an issue, just verify customer's age and boom, done. I've yelled at store personnel for not carding me when I bought Dawn of War and a number of other titles. I get torqued off every time they don't do it at the movies. If they are gonna do these laws then the least they could do is properly enforce them so that this stuff doesn't make it to hands of kids; parents complain; and then both sides of the political aisle act like it's World War 3.

I used to be petty about being a leftist but my "side" is just as reactionary as "the right", someone needs to pump both sides full of a seriously large dose of sanity and common sense. Oh wait, we can do that, it's called "voting". If you are old enough to buy Manhunt or Manhunt 2 or whatever it is, then you are by definition old enough to vote, at least in the United States, and probably Britain and Canada as well. So vote for your free speech rather than for those who prostrate themselves before the altar of "morality". In my mind it is more morally right to speak for the right of all to speak than to speak for the right of only a few to speak.

Most of the time I can say it is just a game. Half-Life had some gory violence but it had a plausible context. Same thing with Halo. Mass Effect is rated M but again the protagonist is trying to save lives. Manhunt 2 on the other hand seems to be offering an excuse to glorify excessive violence. They tried to work it into a context but the main focus is violence. The other games I mentioned are all about storyline, game-play, and so on. I have a problem with Manhunt2 because of its focus. There is depicting realistic violence in a game like Mass Effect, and then there is doing so solely for the sake of violence. That is where I have a problem with Manhunt 2Tachyon2046

I'm actually glad that Rockstar took the full six weeks to appeal. It's a serious matter and they are treating it that way. It would have been easy to have a reactionary response, so I'm glad they were mature in their thought process and preparation. Whatever the outcome of this, it will be one that will set a poweful precedent for how video games are treated in the future - as a medium respected enough to have mature discretion or as a drug unworthy of it by its supposed uncontrollably harmful intrinsic nature.Draqq_Zyxorian

I am overwhelmed with joy that they are taking a stance at all instead of trying to make adjustments to appease the small fraction that decided to ban it in the first place. Furthermore, finding out that the whole time they were in preparation for their response to the ban is even more reassuring, just as you pointed out. If this is all done with a certain level of dignity and maturity while getting the point across then I feel Rockstar has set a precedent for all other developers. It will now give them (developers) something to springboard off of when they are faced with the same issue.

Most of the time I can say it is just a game. Half-Life had some gory violence but it had a plausible context. Same thing with Halo. Mass Effect is rated M but again the protagonist is trying to save lives. Manhunt 2 on the other hand seems to be offering an excuse to glorify excessive violence. They tried to work it into a context but the main focus is violence. The other games I mentioned are all about storyline, game-play, and so on. I have a problem with Manhunt2 because of its focus. There is depicting realistic violence in a game like Mass Effect, and then there is doing so solely for the sake of violence. That is where I have a problem with Manhunt 2Tachyon2046

In fact, the only gameplay video that I saw was of an enemy getting a vertebrae ripped out with a pair of clamps...which sounds brutal, but you never actually see anything happen, as the moment when the character pulls away and actually does the act, the camera does a cut to only show the main character pulling his clamps away from something, with some indistinguishable red thing inbetween them. It's tame compared to what some R rated movies allow in them.

By going off of written impressions, some people are making claims regarding the game's content as if they already know what the game has in it, and why it was rated AO. Thing is, we don't know why it was rated AO, at all, and that's part of my problem here, not just that we don't know, but some people decide that it's okay to label this game in such a manner without any real strong working knowledge to work from personally.

What makes you think that Manhunt 2 is doing it for the sake of violence, especially since we, as gamers, have very little actual hard information regarding the game's content (and by that, I mean either demos, or extensive gameplay videos that demonstrate the game).

Skylock00

What makes you think that the game is not focused on violence? I really would like to know the basis of your point since the first game is known for being extremely and graphically violent. What would make you think even for the slightest that the sequel to the game would be of a different focus especially with the AO rating.

[QUOTE="Skylock00"]

What makes you think that Manhunt 2 is doing it for the sake of violence, especially since we, as gamers, have very little actual hard information regarding the game's content (and by that, I mean either demos, or extensive gameplay videos that demonstrate the game).

Pedro

What makes you think that the game is not focused on violence? I really would like to know the basis of your point since the first game is known for being extremely and graphically violent. What would make you think even for the slightest that the sequel to the game would be of a different focus especially with the AO rating.

My focus was saying that I have an issue with people acting like they /know/ that the game is one way or another absolutely without any hard information to go on, which is the truth of the matter.

While I don't have any hard information, there are impressions indicating that unlike Manhunt 1, there is less of a direct drive from the game to force you into killing people, actually giving players the option to simply avoid confrontation if they choose, which can have an effect on the player character in the long run, and actually alter things like the ending, which could mean that there is a possible lower level of focus on the violence in and of itself, but I never made such a claim in the first place.

My focus was saying that I have an issue with people acting like they /know/ that the game is one way or another absolutely without any hard information to go on, which is the truth of the matter.

Skylock00

OK point understood.

Hopefully, the appeal took this long due to Rockstar making a serious effort in building a strong case. Also, let's not forget, the only other game that was banned in Britain was Carmageddon and SCi managed to overturn that decision. There's a good possibility Rockstar will do the same.

As a token of my support to Rockstar, I will now shamelessly pimp Murder-Death-Kill and Nowhere To Run.

Hopefully, the appeal took this long due to Rockstar making a serious effort in building a strong case. Also, let's not forget, the only other game that was banned in Britain was Carmageddon and SCi managed to overturn that decision. There's a good possibility Rockstar will do the same.

As a token of my support to Rockstar, I will now shamelessly pimp Murder-Death-Kill and Nowhere To Run.

UpInFlames

Is there anymore information on the events that took place with Carmageddon's ban and how SCi managed to overturn it? Is it because of those past events that took place make you confident that Rockstar will be able to fight the ban? I just don't want to get my hopes up and then have them shattered. My heart can only take so much.

Another thought is that Rockstar seems to have some strong faith in Manhunt 2's ability to sell that they will go to these lengths to make sure it gets on the market in its intended form. Of course, with the amount of hype this game has garnered I would be surprised if it doesn't outsell its predecessor by 2:1. That is... if it can get out on the market at all.

By the way, how dare you come into this thread and promote your "evil propaganda":P

Is there anymore information on the events that took place with Carmageddon's ban and how SCi managed to overturn it? Is it because of those past events that took place make you confident that Rockstar will be able to fight the ban? I just don't want to get my hopes up and then have them shattered. My heart can only take so much.juradai

If I remember correctly, the appeal held up because the BBFC simply couldn't prove that the game would be harmful to anyone and because of the ratings double standards. Following Carmageddon's appeal, the BBFC undertook some major changes. Perhaps it is time things change once more. Clearly, the BBFC is indeed using double standards when evaluating games and films - in fact, the BBFC confirmed this themselves. They also confirmed that they don't have any proof (in fact, they flat-out said that they don't even need any proof) that Manhunt 2 would be harmful to the people who played it. Their entire argument revolves around their own opinion and bias. I expect Rockstar to really take advantage of that. Facts are on their side, the BBFC has nothing.

I hope they win this appeal, obviosuly we dont know the details of why it was rated AO but if it was cause of violence alone there better be some clear rules created. Where would it stop if the ESRB gets to just choose what games are AO and which are M.dvader654

This is about the ban in Britain, not America. :wink:

It would be much harder to do anything in America as the ESRB enjoys full support from the chicken-**** game industry who would rather offer Rockstar to the wolves rather than stand up for their own rights.

[QUOTE="dvader654"]I hope they win this appeal, obviosuly we dont know the details of why it was rated AO but if it was cause of violence alone there better be some clear rules created. Where would it stop if the ESRB gets to just choose what games are AO and which are M.UpInFlames

This is about the ban in Britain, not America. :wink:

It would be much harder to do anything in America as the ESRB enjoys full support from the chicken-**** game industry who would rather offer Rockstar to the wolves rather than stand up for their own rights.

Nevertheless, it would still be a victory overall and somehow I can't get over the feeling that the BBFC's ruling and that of the ESRB are tied together somehow. Is that too much of a stretch? Perhaps if Rockstar gets the ban removed in Britain then they can then take on the ESRB here in America. I know it sounds like wishful thinking.

Also, the way you put the whole Carmeggedon into perspective does alleviate some concersn that I had in regards to Rockstar's appeal. With that said, I would now be surprised if the they did not get the ban removed.

Nevertheless, it would still be a victory overall and somehow I can't get over the feeling that the BBFC's ruling and that of the ESRB are tied together somehow. Is that too much of a stretch? Perhaps if Rockstar gets the ban removed in Britain then they can then take on the ESRB here in America. I know it sounds like wishful thinking.juradai

The thing is, Manhunt 2 technically wasn't banned in America - it was awarded the AO rating which no console manufacturer will allow on their consoles and no retailer will carry. It's ridiculous and it's censorship all the same, but cleverly veiled in order to make any appeals a hell of a lot more complicated, impossible even. The BBFC is seperate from the gaming industry and the procedure in Britain is rather straightforward, but in America the censorship comes from within the game industry itself. ESA, ESRB, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo, retailers...they're all sucking each others ***** and they would rather leave Rockstar high and dry rather than--heaven forbid!--make a stand against censorship, prejudice, and hypocrisy. It's pathetic.

Here is an excerpt from an interview with the Interactive Chairman of Take-Two regarding Manhunt 2's AO rating. I found it very interesting. it's from Mercury News Interactive.

Article Link

Q: What lessons do you draw out of the Manhunt 2 experience?

A: I'm not sure. Perhaps. I don't know that there are lessons there. It's a concern that we think a different standard may be applied to interactive entertainment than to linear entertainment. Manhunt 2 is set squarely in the horror genre for people over 17. It's horrifying. We think it is no more graphic than the first Manhunt. Perhaps the only lesson is that one's expectations aren't always borne out in these situations.

Q: Politically, you can view it as a step backward, as opposed to video games always moving forward.

A: Politically how?

Q: Similar to what you were saying, as video games grow bigger and bigger, you would think that a diversity results and people would embrace games for adults.

A: I think it creates an opportunity for us as an industry to reinforce the point that there are video games intended for adults and they should be labeled and marketed accordingly. We are utterly comfortable with that. From our point of view, we would have no trouble at all for a concept of an M-rating being for 18 and above instead of 17 and above. That would not trouble us if that gave people more comfort. We are not making these games for kids. These games are not intended to be sold to children. I have a strong philosophy about interactive entertainment having spent my whole career in entertainment. We are not just in the business of making entertainment. We are in the business of making art. I play every game that we make before it goes out. If I don't feel that it meets the standard of art and entertainment, I am hard pressed to be comfortable with it. If I do feel it meets that standard, I am comfortable with it. We are also in the business of making money. We invest a lot of money in these games and it's terribly important for us that we are able to bring them to market. We do need to have an appropriate rating system that tells parents what's in the box. We also do need here in America to be able to bring our art to consumers if that is indeed the American way.

Q: One of the flaws here seems to be that even if you have the adults only rating, there is no way to bring the game out under that rating? It seems there ought to be a way to get that to a large market.

A: We think that too. If you can't, then the rating becomes irrelevant. That isn't good for the ratings association. It obviously makes it difficult for them. It makes it difficult for people to make video games. I'm not sure it is good for consumers either. The AO rating was not intended when it was developed to mean a non-rating. That wasn't the point. If you can't market it because you aren't allowed by the licensors or the retailers won't carry it, then the rating doesn't have any meaning. Clearly one has to discuss what its purpose is.

Q: Is there an effect where you might self-censor yourselves and that this is a line being drawn. You should step back from it if you want commercial successes?

A: We really didn't think we were crossing the line. I'm the person that has to stand behind a product and say it passes our internal standards. I wouldn't say censorship. But we do have high standards for what we will do. We have to see it as art and entertaining and appropriate for the audience to whom it is being marketed. We do feel that way. Not everyone has to agree. But we feel that way and I stand behind those views. We take our social responsibility very very seriously indeed. There are plenty of lines we won't cross. I don't watch. I would never be comfortable having anyone outside the company telling us we can't cross the line. I am very comfortable inside the company saying look, "We don't want to do this." We have these discussions all the time. The creative people at Take-Two and both labels are incredibly focused on being responsible and also being creative. We have these conversations very cooperatively. No one was trying to make a point here with Manhunt 2 other than creating an incredibly entertaining interactive entertainment experience in the horror genre.

Hmm... what can we do about this? I'm serious.

Maybe I sound crazy, but you read about MLK and this could be the exact same chance.

Protest perhaps. How could it be organized?

I hope they win this appeal, obviosuly we dont know the details of why it was rated AO but if it was cause of violence alone there better be some clear rules created. Where would it stop if the ESRB gets to just choose what games are AO and which are M.dvader654

I can't imagine what is in Manhunt that the BBFC just flatout banned it. I doubt it is just sex scenes, since the BBFC hasn't had any issue with sex scenes in the past. They rated Indigo Prophecy a 15, while the ESRB rated it AO. They also said that hot coffee wouldn't have changed their rating of GTA even if it had been included in the official game.

what was soo bad about indigo prophecy i dont get it why was it A0 and in the uk it got a 15?what is it with the ersb and sex?solidgamer

There were a couple of sex scenes in the game. They were taken out of the US game completely so that the ESRB would rate it an M. The scene was noi where near as bad as stuff you can see in some r rated movies.

[QUOTE="solidgamer"]what was soo bad about indigo prophecy i dont get it why was it A0 and in the uk it got a 15?what is it with the ersb and sex?H3LLRaiseR

There were a couple of sex scenes in the game. They were taken out of the US game completely so that the ESRB would rate it an M. The scene was noi where near as bad as stuff you can see in some r rated movies.

Most of the time I can say it is just a game. Half-Life had some gory violence but it had a plausible context. Same thing with Halo. Mass Effect is rated M but again the protagonist is trying to save lives. Manhunt 2 on the other hand seems to be offering an excuse to glorify excessive violence. They tried to work it into a context but the main focus is violence. The other games I mentioned are all about storyline, game-play, and so on. I have a problem with Manhunt2 because of its focus. There is depicting realistic violence in a game like Mass Effect, and then there is doing so solely for the sake of violence. That is where I have a problem with Manhunt 2Tachyon2046

Much agreed.

I'm all for freedom of expression, but playing the original MH made me a bit sick. Who would want to play a game like that? It could be argued that killing may not be the main focus......that the player is just trying to escape and is using the means available to him to proceed to that goal.

Thing is, there is a strong focus andurgingtowards violent behavior by thegame to get to that goal. If anyone has any doubts where the focus may be in this game, they have only to look at thetitle and it's previous game's content. To try to suggest that killing is not one of thedriving themes in the MH series makes no sense whatsoever.

[QUOTE="Tachyon2046"]Most of the time I can say it is just a game. Half-Life had some gory violence but it had a plausible context. Same thing with Halo. Mass Effect is rated M but again the protagonist is trying to save lives. Manhunt 2 on the other hand seems to be offering an excuse to glorify excessive violence. They tried to work it into a context but the main focus is violence. The other games I mentioned are all about storyline, game-play, and so on. I have a problem with Manhunt2 because of its focus. There is depicting realistic violence in a game like Mass Effect, and then there is doing so solely for the sake of violence. That is where I have a problem with Manhunt 2Rekunta

Much agreed.

I'm all for freedom of expression, but playing the original MH made me a bit sick. Who would want to play a game like that? It could be argued that killing may not be the main focus......that the player is just trying to escape and is using the means available to him to proceed to that goal.

Thing is, there is a strong focus andurgingtowards violent behavior by thegame to get to that goal. If anyone has any doubts where the focus may be in this game, they have only to look at thetitle and it's previous game's content. To try to suggest that killing is not one of thedriving themes in the MH series makes no sense whatsoever.

The violence is absolutely a focus of the game. Its a horror themed game, which is a genre that has always been about raising the bar on violence or the fear of violence.

Apparently, it took almost six weeks for Rockstar to get their appeal together. I interested in what would have taken so long for them to do that.

juradai

One needs time to put an effective appeal together to make a strong case for one's self making sure to adequately address the ESRBs response in every detail. In something like this, its best to get it right the first time.

Go Rockstar!