Portrayal of female characters in video games - Stereotyped, Sexualized and Objectified

@Black_Knight_00:

"There's a reason why female gamers (who are not radical sex-negative feminists) love Bayonetta."

At least from my perspective, I love Bayonetta for the same reasons I love old school Lara and superheroes like Batman. Their skintight suits weren't just to be looked at and be objectified. To me, they showed just how confident the characters were with themselves and their abilities.

The old Lara Croft didn't need a bullet proof armor. She was just that damn good that she knew she could dodge whatever was coming at her. Just like classic Batman didn't need a bulletproof armor because he was just that damn good that he knew he could easily disarm the badguys.

So while you could mock them and say: "You gonna try to beat me in those little tights?"

They could say: "Yeah! I'm here telling you that I don't need anymore than this to kick your ass!"

To me, that takes alot of willpower to do and even if it's dangerous and suicidal, it makes them BADASS! ??

When you think about it. It might sound dumb that old school Lara only took a tanktop, short shorts, two guns and a backpack on her adventures. But then when you really think about it, Lara did all of that with ONLY a tanktop, short shorts, two guns and a backpack!

@jackamomo:

It's cheating because it's a game in the horror genre.

If we be honest with ourselves, and look at the facts Uncharted is family friendly and always was. No one really questions Drake murdering 1,000 pirates, as the game(s) never really gets graphic, part of which is reflected in the vibrant color palette, why? it's intentional, not because Drake is male no-no it as a product is far more advertised for a wider audience. While the newer Tomb Raider was clearly trying to make her more serious and edgy.

I could bring up The Last of Us (same developer as Uncharted), but you'll again throw the "it's a horror game" trope. Which frankly beats the purpose when you are constantly changing the 'rules'. When one has to twist things to fit an agenda it makes it difficult to click with whatever message you intended to have_

Think if nothing you should keep in mind the developer behind the Tomb Raider reboot also developed The Legacy of Kain franchise. A very violent Gothic Horror series of Dungeon Crawlers and Action games; that games like Devil May Cry took inspiration from.

Raziel gets his wings de-boned and lower jaw completely removed before you even play as him in Soul Reaver. Basically playing as a male cripple, and yes this is the same developer behind the TR reboot.

You made some interesting points but for this it's not a gender issue, Crystal Dynamics just like developing more graphic and gory games and they don't care if it's a male or female protagonist (the above should make that oblivious). And while you don't consider Tomb Raider reboot 'horror' the developer does have a history and clear artistic passion in that area. Six games in fact.

@Pedro: @Black_Knight_00: Let's go easy on the pics as we don't want this to devolve into a "hot girls" thread which is not allowed.

I don't know anyone who would make the argument you're making here. While I agree that this has been an issue in the industry, I can't think of any Resident Evil games that have issues in this area, much less the new RE2 or even its original version.

Cindy's outfit was pretty over-the-top.

It's gotten a lot better in some areas and genres, while others have backslid. There have always been genres where you saw this more or less. Survival Horror (to the above example) has always been better since going for titillation in your horror game works directly against the kind of game you're trying to make. RPGs and MMOs have been more problematic. If you play a female character the better equipment usually has you getting more naked.

Fighting Games are probably the worst, as those have actually slid in the opposite direction over the years. DoA is DoA, and Mai Shiranui has always been over the top, but fighting game franchises that have traditionally -not- been about titillation have been moving in that direction for years. While DoA is going to reign it in a bit in their next release, the Street Fighter franchise has been looking more and more like DoA with each new title and costume DLC.

-Byshop

It's ok till the devs turn it into a leftwing power fantasy. I think there is a desperate attempt to have equal representation.

I just played a bad example and a good example.

Bad example: AC odyssey, sorry but a female fighting in the days of ancient Greece would be extremely rare at best. Ironically half the randomly generated mercs were women, many of which looked to be 7 feet tall. It's like the developer wants you to believe there is no physical difference between a man and a women. Not to mention the main story would have been better and more believable with two brothers.

Good example: RE2 remake was perfect. I prefer to play as men in action games but I still have no issue playing with Claire. She is a believable and likeable hero. What's funny to me is this is a remake of a game from the 90s and yet it's still miles ahead of what these progressive nitwits come up with now.

@Byshop:

I don't know anyone who would make the argument you're making here.

Will admit that it may come across as exaggerating on my part. Yet I can explain and wouldn't surprise me if it get brought up in the next couple of weeks by people wishing to add more fuel to this kind of fire_

Just one example Ada has a scene in the remake stating "Where is Leon when you need him…" as she lies with a shrapnel wound.

And I can see a loud minority taking that scene out of context, you know? as being sexist. A similar scene exists with Claire as well but I'm trying not to spoil the new game. Check the spoiler block at your own discretion.

There will always be "someone" who complains about literally anything, but those complaints don't necessarily represent the majority of what people might have an issue with. The larger issue that people are complaining about when they complain about female characters in games is about nearly naked SFV characters and boob/crotch shot camera angles. RE2 (both the original and the remake so far) have characters of both sexes who are capable, have agency, and aren't put into skimpy outfits just for the sake of trying to "sex up" the game. Claire is no less capable than Leon in both versions of the game (and in some cases more going by some of the dialog).

-Byshop

bold defiance ?

@Black_Knight_00 said:

@Byshop said:

@Pedro: @Black_Knight_00: Let's go easy on the pics as we don't want this to devolve into a "hot girls" thread which is not allowed.

bold defiance ?

Cologne is probably the most ultra-capable female character of all time.

-Byshop

@Byshop: That she is. And she was in videogames too.

That's why I stated vocal minority, I'm in agreement with you. This is part the issue I have, don't think most have a problem. Though it'll turn up at somepoint to continue this kind of discussion.

The larger issue that people are complaining about when they complain about female characters in games is about nearly naked SFV characters and boob/crotch shot camera angles.

Before I continue just want to get out the way I am aware female characters from a visual standpoint get more sexualized than male in gaming. Not that ignorant. The issue I find is that doesn't mean male characters do not in any capacity. And it's commonly overlooked simply because no one cares if it happens to a male character, I consider this hypocritical.

I already made a point of this with people overlooking characters like Urien and Heihachi in a previous comment, but on that note will add Voldo to that list. If you really want to discuss "crotch shots" I think he qualifies as the King in that area.

And though I've seen many complain and use Ivy(1999) as the poster girl for why the gaming industry is sexist. Voldo has been doing this since 1995 in the original Soul Edge

How many people have you read Voldo is a "sexualized and objectified" male character?

Now lets look at them as characters outside appearances, you mentioned Street Fighter V? Chun Li is labelled "the strongest woman in the world", as a child known to be a martial arts prodigy. Is a successful police officer, and is claimed for taking down Shadaloo in Street Fighter III which is the last games in the SF timeline.

Voldo once an Italian trade merchant grows to be a blind slave that only lives to serve and protect an underground tomb, and later his master the Soul Edge. That's it. He has no further independence or feats to his name. Even Ivy, who is the most commonly disliked female gaming character got to kill Cervantes.

Which one seems more of an issue out of the two above characters, if we really break it down.

@nepu7supastar7:

When you think about it. It might sound dumb that old school Lara only took a tanktop, short shorts, two guns and a backpack on her adventures. But then when you really think about it, Lara did all of that with ONLY a tanktop, short shorts, two guns and a backpack

Lara is wearing normal attire for a tomb raider. It is normal for Lara to raid tombs. It is not normal for Lara to burst into tears, bath herself in blood, crawl about in the mud and then burst into tears again. That is Rambo after taking acid in nam. Not a rich heiress who can somersault and dual wield.

RSM-HQ The developers need to cheer up.

@blackhairedhero: a female fighting in the days of ancient Greece would be extremely rare at best

Assassins Creed is just looking for new ideas. This time the idea was 'female hero'.

Whoa! Didn't see that coming did you public! A woman fighting like a man! Mind. Blown.

She has no personality, I watched RadBrad play it for a bit.

@jackamomo:

The developers need to cheer up.

Ha ha perhaps you're right on that one.

@jackamomo:

"Lara is wearing normal attire for a tomb raider. It is normal for Lara to raid tombs. It is not normal for Lara to burst into tears, bath herself in blood, crawl about in the mud and then burst into tears again. That is Rambo after taking acid in nam. Not a rich heiress who can somersault and dual wield."

When you take the crying part out of context like you did then of course it's going to sound nonsensical. But the games used it to capture her humanity at moments that called for it.

Out of context, old Lara's booty shorts make zero sense. Her dual guns made very little sense. And her gymnastics made zero sense. Everything she did was cool for the sake of cool. It's pretty easy to make anything else a character does in fiction look ridiculous when you choose to take out of context. When you choose to nitpick something out of its intended purpose.

@nepu7supastar7: They squeezed all the fun out of Lara and gave it to a horror obsessed developer.

That was a dick move.

The only video female game character which had any cultural relevance was changed.

Now she is making the series modern by being all serious.

Nothing wrong with that in itself. It's just that they did it all shitty because they are dumb.

She doesn't need to kill loads of dudes to be more like a man, which people here seem to be equating to equality and female empowerment for some reason.

The new Lara is not a more well rounded character. She may be deeper. But that depth seems mostly just to contain angst and self doubt.

The writing is D grade and the acting is cringingly over the top.

There is less creativity and breadth to new Lara as opposed to the admittedly 2 dimensional old Lara. At least she was a celebration of femininity, not a hastily thrown together weak young woman who cannot crack a joke or a smile through the whole game.

New Lara has this strange apologetic look on her face the whole time. How did losing her parents result in this transformation and when does she become confident?

Is it at the end of the game? When everyone is dead. She has finally satiated her thirst for bloodshed, she sighs, puts down her AK47 and machette's and gives herself a big pat on the back and maybe go buy a yacht to help her get over the loss of her parents.

@jackamomo:

Give her a chance. I was a doubter like you before but after these past 3 games, I can definitely tell you that the New Lara is not the end of the world. She's still Lara in many aspects and when you get down to the nit and gritty, Lara was always a killer. That's nothing new. And she doesn't really do much different from what she would normally do in any TR. All your complaints are mostly hyperbole at this point. Lara still raids tombs. She still kills animals. She still solves puzzles. She still explores. She still does alot of free climbing.

@jackamomo:

I think you overlooked the fact that Lara is meant to be inexperienced in the reboot. That's why she looks at herself with self doubt.

She doesn't truly get her confidence until Shadow of the Tomb Raider. And that is what Crystal Dynamics did spot on with the new Lara. You can see it in her face that she's scared out of her mind in TR 2013. Then you see a look of uncertainty in Rise of the Tomb Raider. And finally, you see a fully confident and calm Lara in Shadow of the Tomb Raider. Her grunts get less whiny. She stops panicking in firefights. And she's almost never out of breath. Her worried, apologetic expression gradually fades into a cold, calm and collective death mask.

CD managed to capture true character development in the course of the reboot trilogy. And that's something that I think goes under appreciated in the gaming community. That's the magic that truly brings characters to life. Whether we relate to them or not, a good, rounded character is one who grows with the story.

@nepu7supastar7: Fair enough. I just don't think she's deep now like people (and the game) are pretending she is.

If they gave this game to any other developer and said 'make it more gritty' they would perhaps attempted something more ambitious than what we got.

I'm not against refreshing a franchise but they took a cultural icon and turned it on it's head.

The new film is described as "dull", which is essentially how I see this game.

Killing is not empowerment. Crying is undignified. New Lara is a bore.

@RSM-HQ:

"That's why I stated vocal minority, I'm in agreement with you. This is part the issue I have, don't think most have a problem. Though it'll turn up at somepoint to continue this kind of discussion."

-If- someone tried to make that argument then we can argue against it and raise some very good points, but until someone actually makes that argument then there's nothing to argue against.

"Before I continue just want to get out the way I am aware female characters from a visual standpoint get more sexualized than male in gaming. Not that ignorant. The issue I find is that doesn't mean male characters do not in any capacity. And it's commonly overlooked simply because no one cares if it happens to a male character, I consider this hypocritical. I already made a point of this with people overlooking characters like Urien and Heihachi in a previous comment, but on that note will add Voldo to that list. If you really want to discuss "crotch shots" I think he qualifies as the King in that area. And though I've seen many complain and use Ivy(1999) as the poster girl for why the gaming industry is sexist. Voldo has been doing this since 1995 in the original Soul Edge. How many people have you read Voldo is a "sexualized and objectified" male character?"

A couple points here:

• First, for any few instances of half-naked male characters in games, the pendulum swings so far in the other direction most of the time. For any one example you provide of a half-naked guy, I can probably dig up 50 female examples. The issue isn't that there shouldn't even be titillation in games, it's that it's constantly used in games (even when it's out of place or doesn't make sense) and it's almost always female. Maybe you were making this point in that first line, but I wasn't clear if you meant "sexualized more frequently" or "the sexualization itself is far more obvious/pronounced".
• Second, a state of partial undress isn't the only factor here. It's about what they were going for with the character design, although making them mostly naked is a big part of that. With Urien and Heihachi it's about "look how muscular these guys are" but these aren't character designs intended to draw the female eye. With Ivy, looking hot for male gamers is absolutely the goal and not just with the outfit. The entire character is a dominatrix motif. Her sword literally doubles as a whip. One of her unblockables starts with her doing standing splits. She has a couple "sexy grapple" moves that again feed into the dominatrix motif. Even her down attach is grinding her high heel into her downed opponent. Do Heihachi or Urien have any sexy, grindy moves? No, they don't.
• Voldo isn't an objectified character because that clearly wasn't the goal of his design, but if you know any girls who look at the above gif and think "oooh, what's -his- number?" then get your freak on, girl. This isn't because of a double standard, it's because the character designers were clearly going for "creepy AF" rather than "sexy slab of man meat" and dressing him like a Cenobite was clearly part of trying to make him as uncomfortable to watch as possible.

But that's what I'm talking about. The way that female and male characters are treated in games is so fundamentally different that I can't even think of one example in mainstream gaming of a male character being presented in the same extremes as a female character to demonstrate how wildly different the treatment is. At best, you get games like Life is Strange, Walking Dead, Last of Us, the RE series, etc that pretty much treat men and women alike as just "people" in the story, but you'll never see a mainstream game where you have a guy version of Bayonetta where he's defeating enemies while doing acrobatic stripper moves and stomping on them with giant boots made out of his pubic hair.

The only types of games I can think of at all where you get truly sexualized male characters would be some visual novel/dating games (like Dream Daddy), but that's literally the entire point of those games. Sexualized female characters, though? Pretty much literred throughout all the rest of gaming.

"Now lets look at them as characters outside appearances, you mentioned Street Fighter V? Chun Li is labelled "the strongest woman in the world", as a child known to be a martial arts prodigy. Is a successful police officer, and is claimed for taking down Shadaloo in Street Fighter III which is the last games in the SF timeline."

Okay, but what does any of that background story have anything to do with why she has been getting more and more naked with each new SF game? It doesn't have anything to do with it. Giving her some backstory in an instruction manual or a wiki doesn't really give you a free pass on what you do with the character in the games, especially in a series that traditionally literally has had no story mode (SFV is the first, except for the home version of The Movie game).

-Byshop

I suppose I'd be turned off if the character I'm playing is a guy wearing nothing but a Speedo. But, I wouldn't be put off because it's sexist. Rather, I'll be put off because it just looks nasty. God forbid it has realistic physics with the family jewels jingling and jangling around. ;) Bouncy-bouncy would have a totally different meaning.

@Byshop: I think Street Fighter IV/V and the only games where Chun Li has had alterations from her default Chinese costume. With the exception of Alpha portraying a young Chun LI, but her costume isn't really sexual in nature.

Much like Ryu's red/white it's iconic and would probably be detrimental if they changed it. After Street III where none of original legacy cast returned barring Ryu/Ken Capcom have played it relatively safe.

To be fair as well, her default sexy custom came alongside "hot ryu" with box art that emphasizes his hidden dragon.

"Hot Ryu", caught the attention of fandom and I think was something of a surprise for Capcom. Which led to more sexual design of the womans male counterparts where Cody looks like a beefed up chip-in-dale. Albeit with gaint money hands.

The argument though that's it's emphases on woman over men isn't wrong. The costume DLC count for Chun Li, most of sexual far exceeds the likes male characters, in some cases 10/1.

Generally speaking, I don't think it should be censored or removed. but rather, the males should be equally sexualized through DLC. It is an indulgent fantasy world designed to be entertaining. As long as it has an appropriate age label and the aesthetics aren't (see below) out of line with the rest of the game, knock yourself out.

@nepu7supastar7: It's too heavy. I don't like that.

@Byshop: boob/crotch shot camera angles

Some games have up skirt shots. I think Ulala is the most sexist character ever created. I might blog it.

@RSM-HQ Voldo is a weird gimp who's victory story is to just keep being a gimp. If you find that sexy, I'm worried about you. He has green skin and looks like Freddy Krueger.

jun_aka_pekto I suppose I'd be turned off if the character I'm playing is a guy wearing nothing but a Speedo. But, I wouldn't be put off because it's sexist. Rather, I'll be put off because it just looks nasty. God forbid it has realistic physics with the family jewels jingling and jangling around

That must be how girls feel a bit, no?

uninspiredcup I don't think it should be censored or removed. but rather, the males should be equally sexualized.

I think ESRB 18 ratings should be applied if the costumes are as sexy as SFV.

@jackamomo: Doesn't have green skin, you may need to check your eyes.

And while you bring up "gimp" maybe you should do some research in what that is

A sex slave with submissive tendencies

Whether I'm into that or not is really non of your concern, it's a niche sexual fantasy, much like muscular women which you apparently find sexual based on your above opinion with Street Fighter needing an adult rating for costumes being too attractive.

Now that I've seen my predictions come true will just requote myself-

Usually those that do are very one sided and simply the minority having this deluded issue. Trying to control creators intent because they have no creativity themselves.

"semi-naked men is empowering, showing confidence". But apparently that cannot mean the same for women characters.

@RSM-HQ: You misunderstand when sex is empowering.

Being a gimp is not empowering and being sexy in of itself is not empowering.

When sexuality is used to titillate, you degrade that character as less than a person, when their sexuality has taken precedence over other qualities.

As Byshop sex. Men's sexuality is rarely exploited. A rare instance is Dream Daddy which focuses on features straight girls or gay men might like such as being nice and things.

[EdiT] Nice picture though.

Oh my.

Yeah, this trend in SF specifically started mostly is SF4. But even that box art is an example of what I'm talking about. Here's Ryu's muscley arms, and here's Chun Li's boob cleavage (even though it's a side angle) and ass. And that's just one character from the original SF2. That's not even looking at newer characters like R. Mika, Laura, Menat, etc.

I don't disagree with the idea that if you're going to show a lot of female skin then you should also show male skin too. That's one of the things that impressed me about the Sin City comic. It didn't pull any punches on nudity in either direction, and for the subject matter it didn't seem out of place. In Street Fighter a bunch of stripper outfits feels a bit more shoehorned in and out of place. I'm not anti-nudity in games at all. I think games are art and nothing should be off limits, but the way games have traditionally used nudity has been very one sided and frankly immature.

As I mentioned earlier, you don't really get "sexualized" male characters generally except in Visual Novel/Eroge/Yaoi type games, but you get sexualized female characters in pretty much every genre of game.

"As Byshop sex."

@jackamomo please clarify what you mean by that.

-Byshop

@Byshop:

I know it sounds stupid but I thought Byshop sex meant some game made about you or something.

@jackamomo:

When sexuality is used to titillate, you degrade that character as less than a person, when their sexuality has taken precedence over other qualities.

And you stated for Voldo

Voldo is a weird gimp who's victory story is to just keep being a gimp

So correct me if I'm wrong but Voldo is a sexulaized object considering you don't even pretend to know that he was a trade merchant from Italy, before he was forced a slave.

@Byshop:

That's not even looking at newer characters like R. Mika

She was in Alpha 3. A game released in 1998, and back then she did the butt slap and wore the same outfit. Back then no one seemed to care.

As I mentioned earlier, you don't really get "sexualized" male characters generally except in Visual Novel/Eroge/Yaoi type games

I've provided some and seems it'll have to be a degree to disagree way of discussion as what I've witnessed you both are basing attraction on personal interest. If Dante falling naked or getting out a shower in the intros for DMC3 DmC is not a form of "sexualized" too you both, on top what has already been listed? you are both clearly one sided on this subject. Making this conversation pretty pointless to continue.

@RSM-HQ: "She was in Alpha 3. A game released in 1998, and back then she did the butt slap and wore the same outfit. Back then no one seemed to care."

I'm aware that Mika was introduced in the Alpha series which is why I said "newer" and not "new", but even for her example look at the character proportions and costume design in Alpha 3 compared to SFV because there is a pretty significant difference. They increased the size of her breasts and the costume covers a lot less of them and her ass is hanging out. Also her super move now involves crushing an opponent's head between her ass and her partner who's also comparably dressed. Nope. No sexualization there. :P

"I've provided some and seems it'll have to be a degree to disagree way of discussion as what I've witnessed you both are basing attraction on personal interest. If Dante falling naked or getting out a shower in the intros for DMC3 DmC is not a form of "sexualized" too you both, on top what has already been listed? you are both clearly one sided on this subject. Making this conversation pretty pointless to continue."

You're not entirely wrong here. There's going to be a degree of subjectivity here no matter what, but I'm not basing what I'm saying on "do I think this character is good looking or not". I'm basing it on factors like "what was the designer's intended purpose with this design" and "do I think most people who are attracted to men/women would find this character model alluring?" You seem to be equating sexualization to basically just the state of undress, but it's obviously more complicated than that. A character can be fully clothed and still over sexualized by so many factors like what the character says and does, how they move, context, etc. A woman in a bikini sitting by a pool isn't necessarily sexualized. The same woman in the same outfit in a swordfight where it makes no sense for her to be in a bikini raises the question "why is she in a bikini? Does it make any sense to the story or is just to show off some skin in this action scene?" This basically describes the entire Dead or Alive series which has always been an extreme example, and they even have a spinoff series that drops the "fighting game" aspect altogether and is just about ogling the female characters in various swimsuits strung together by a collection of weak mini-games. DoA is the poster child for this and even they are backing off from that a bit in the next installment of the series because they are trying to get the game taken more seriously for esports.

But following that earlier logic, while I get that Voldo and Ivy might be comparable levels of naked in their regular costumes, do you honestly look at a character design like Voldo and think "wow, clearly they are trying to sell more games by including this sexy character design in this skimpy outfit"? I'm guessing the answer to that question is no for the vast majority of people. Can you honestly give the same answer if we were talking about Ivy? I'm not ignoring your examples, I'm pointing out some pretty glaring differences between them and the female examples.

But Dante from DMC is a better example. There's nothing extremely bizarre in his character design or grotesquely over-proportuned and he answers the door stark naked. Granted, some of the nudity is played for laughs with the pizza slice but yeah, I'd call that sexualized. Now that said, you're asking why nobody is complaining about that example? Well that's easy. Sexualization is not inherently a bad thing. Games are art and there shouldn't be any topics that are off limits. The problem that people have is when it's taken to a ridiculous extreme and when it's overused. The number of sexed up female characters in games is a very, very long list while genuine examples of really sexualized male characters is comparatively very short. And even when there are examples like DMC, the similar female examples are generally all way more over-the-top. Look at Dante's closest gaming counterpart, Bayonetta. She makes orgasm noises and her most of her combos remove all her clothing throughout pretty much the entire game. Not really the same thing.

-Byshop

@Byshop: I think a lot of this is becoming a what do each of us consider sexual content without being actual pornographic.

Granted I agree on Bayonetta to a degree and her moans, and this is from someone who bought a WiiU just to play Bayo2 at launch. To me however her being a seductive witch is humorous and not arrosing. If you think Voldo is extremely bizarre how does Bayonetta not follow the same logic

Those legs are roughly 70% of her entire body, and her outfit is made of her own hair. Wouldn't even state she was designed to be overly attractive as it's heavily stated to be inspired by Tim Burton gothic character designs.

My second reply to you noted that I'm well aware that female characters are also exploited in a sexual manner more commonly than men. So this is going in a never ending cycle.

While I don't fully agree with some things stated, I think this whole thread and overall conversation has too many holes to be consistent.

My main stance on this was always let artists have creators intent, many have simply become far too sensitive self righteously viewing gender equality; what is and isn't permitted by those self-righteous standards. Not ever taking into consideration that we'll just end up with brown army games as we did at the start of the PS3/ 360 generation. Bland generic flood of uncreative garbage if we damage and devalue artists being expressive.

Perhaps just blissfully ignorant but I'm the kind of person who can play almost any game from Little Big Planet/ Donkey Kong, to Dragon's Crown and Bayonetta, even all the games I used that I find having male sexual characters and scenes, all beautifully artistic. And more importantly, great games. Never once have I personally been offended with the use of character designs, or character morals. It's someone else's vision. Not mine, and that frankly is how it should be_

I really don't see any logic from the above posts actually taking a crusade against this? That can not be fixed with simply making a game yourselves.

Anyway that's more a repeated rant, as stated I find this subject pretty dumb. And I should really get back to work lol

@Byshop: How is having attractive women in games, lets say fighting games since you have issue with that, a problem? How is that sliding backwards or however you worded it? I'm getting so tired of this weak narrative.

I'm just happy that we're seeing stronger female role models in video games. The increase in representation and diversity is a good thing. Females are still quite sexualized in society but again I think we're heading in the right direction.

@RSM-HQ

"I think a lot of this is becoming a what do each of us consider sexual content without being actual pornographic."

I'm going off of general opinion, not my personal preference. Yes, the over-the-top aspects of Bayonetta are played for laughs often but they are still there and -constantly- throughout the game.

"Those legs are roughly 70% of her entire body, and her outfit is made of her own hair."

She's not realistically proportioned, but like most "sexy" female game characters they exaggerate the traits that men find attractive. Comically long legs. Big round butt. Tiny waist. Etc, etc. Yes, her "outfit is made of her own hair" but does it look like her body is covered in hair but does it look like her body is covered in hair (something that most wouldn't find particularly sexy)? Of course not. It looks like skin-tight leather, except when it's flying off her in combat leaving her basically naked.

"Wouldn't even state she was designed to be overly attractive as it's heavily stated to be inspired by Tim Burton gothic character designs."

You say that like it can't be both when it obviously can. If your trying to make an argument that her proportions make her generally unattractive or that her character design isn't intended to be as sexy as possible, I'd invite you to Google "hottest video game characters" and consult some of the lists that show up. Try finding a list on the front page that doesn't include Bayonetta (pro tip: you won't be able to). She's on every one of them, and she actually places first on several. So am I just making this up based on my personal preferences? Did the game designers make her sexy to apparently a heck of a lot of people by accident? Come on. The intent of the character design is pretty clear even if you didn't hear it directly from the mouth of the developers. Which, by the way, is someone you -would- hear from the mouth of the game's director Hideki Kamiya because he's said as much in interviews:

"As to Bayonetta, she is also a very original character design, but in many ways this character is my ideal woman. And the reason that we chose a woman for the main character is just because I have had male characters for all my games and wanted to do something different. I stuck to my guns with Bayonetta’s sexiness, and we try to express the sexiness with the design of her character. But I always told my designers to not show her skin too much; we don’t want to give everything away."

"My second reply to you noted that I'm well aware that female characters are also exploited in a sexual manner more commonly than men. So this is going in a never ending cycle."

Yes, but you keep asking the question "why is it bad when female characters are sexualized and not male characters?" This. This is the answer.

"My main stance on this was always let artists have creators intent, many have simply become far too sensitive self righteously viewing gender equality; what is and isn't permitted by those self-righteous standards. Not ever taking into consideration that we'll just end up with brown army games as we did at the start of the PS3/ 360 generation. Bland generic flood of uncreative garbage if we damage and devalue artists being expressive."

I agree with this in principle, but as gamers both you and I also get a voice in saying what we want from our games. It can't be just about a developer's vision if they developer wants us to pay money for their game. There's a lot of shovelware out there that may have been 100% the developer's vision, but it doesn't mean that anyone wants to play it.

"Perhaps just blissfully ignorant but I'm the kind of person who can play almost any game from Little Big Planet/ Donkey Kong, to Dragon's Crown and Bayonetta, even all the sames I used that I find having male sexual scenes, all beautifully artistic. And more importantly, Great games. Never once have I personally been offended with the use of character designs, or character morals. It's someone else's vision. Not mine_"

It's not a question of offense (at least not for me), it's a question of I want to see the industry grow and mature. To me, ridiculous bouncing boobs and the like in games is juvenile, especially in games where it makes little sense like fighting games and has clearly been included to sell more copies to a particular demographic. Everyone hates pandering, but nobody thinks it's pandering when they are the ones being pandered to.

Give me good games like God of War, Spiderman, Hitman 2, Far Cry 5, Ni No Kuni 2, etc. Games that can sell on their merit and not rely on a cheap gimmick like nudity to try to draw people in. Mass Effect literally has sex scenes, but Mass Effect's draw was never about "THERE'S SEX IN THIS GAME!!!!" nor was it marketed that way. If you treat the subject matter with some maturity, people will have a lot less problem with it.

-Byshop

@RSM-HQ: You will find that anytime you prove Jackamomo wrong with facts, your facts suddenly become irrelevant for...reasons. I can go ahead and point out the insane number of death animations for dirk the daring in both dragons lair games, but that probably won't count either. I am also reasonably sure that on a proportional basis, dirk has more ways to die than any video game character in history, given the short lengths of this games he has an absolutely insane different number of ways that he is killed.

@uninspiredcup oh my god. I did a freudian.

Clearly I'm hot for Byshop.

@RSM-HQ Voldo is a character which is related to the subject of sex. But not in a traditional way. He is a fetishist and sado-mashochist. Whilst this may be attractive to some people. I believe that to be a niche interest and not something with mass appeal.

I believe the intent of Namco with Voldo was to weird you out not turn you on.

@Byshop I'm not so sure art should be given free reign. I know it is. But some of it is in bad taste.

I think given this industry is pretty much unregulated it will be the market which decides when they have gone too far. People will find it in bad taste and turn away.

But what I am doing now is just stating my opinion as I form it. I object to the accusation of being overly sensitive or an jsw (ie. poser).

As I am a person and potential customer, I must represent some people as well as aspects of some other people's opinions on this subject.

So, like Dead or Alive, they might just start reigning it in a bit due so as to not limit their audience.

@Byshop: So fighting games with overall sexual characters (your opinion not mine) is bad because it doesn't fit but sex in Mass Effect is fine because its not marketed as such. You do realize no fighting games are marketed on their sexy visuals right (other then Dead or Alive)? So your whole argument falls apart right there. Let the developers make what they want, the people buying the product will let them know with their wallets if its to sexy and "immature".

We've already previously had a very long and parts degrading conversation about Dragon's Crown. And honestly I think he's just passionate about personal beliefs, only times I didn't like his point of view is when it seemed to twist and made up claims to suit his own agenda. Which really he didn't need, and provides plenty rational viewpoints, adding the twist and false claims only weakened his case. I recall the weak insults not helping him either_

Here however not much of that, seems to be more aware what he's putting down, and overall I've seen some good points here unlike most the Dragon's Crown discussion.

Again trying my best to see it as some of us are just from different backgrounds/ beliefs/ and raised in different cultures. I really don't agree with some of what @Byshop or @Jackamomo has stated but I also don't really need to. It's what they think is how it should be, and so long as it's an uncommon opinion (it really is if you look at the bigger picture) it won't reflect games I enjoy.

Last thing we need is companies like Capcom listening to these opinions and getting scared again, releasing such uninspired sci-fi games like these

Dark times when they tried giving western audience what 'they wanted'. Did they? Though it has since been proven to be a heavy fault towards Inafune Keiji san creative control of many projects, who was a fan of such fine people like Anita Sarkeesian. I'm glad he has not further presence in the company.

Everyone deserves a voice. But that doesn't mean companies or developers should listen to irrationality, and telling people what is acceptable. The point in art is free expression!

Capcom tried once to give everyone what they wanted, what game was that you ask? Resident Evil 6

I want to see more sexualized characters in games.

I didn't read this entire thread yet, but I don't think the problem with female characters in games is due to objectification/sexualization (Lara in the Tomb Raider reboot series is not in the slightest) but more due to uninspired, poor writers.

Why can't anyone make a modern version of Lara (or any AAA female character) with the personality or Nathan Drake and company? It can be good to have a strong female as the lead, but not when she is devoid of any personality beyond "Yarr, look'it me, I'm tuff."

Funny enough, games that suffer from this character writing problem aren't limited to the protagonist - secondary characters are also just as bland.

We don't need to "write women better." We need to get better writers in general. The closest PC gamers have gotten, from what I've played, are "A Way Out" (which is online co-op only) and the recent Resident Evil 2 remake. Most everything else is lackluster.

@RSM-HQ: I think you are pushing the boundaries of what I would consider 'art'.

Artwork might be a better term as it is attempting purely to make money and not stimulate any cerebral activity, but rather primal urges, so could be considered something almost contrary to art and more close to a product.

A commercial product which is in the creative industries and a visual medium stands as a kind of popular art form akin to comic books and fantasy artwork which you might find on a poster but it is not art in the more true sense of the word.

A true work of art will stimulate your cerebral cortex and challenge your preconceptions of the world.

Yeah, trying to argue that Voldo is the same as Ivy in terms of sexualization and appeal is pretty ridiculous, regardless of the subjective nature of attraction. They were going for something quite different with the two characters, and in both instances they hit their mark.

I do think that art should be given free reign and that it shouldn't be regulated in any way, -but- I also think that calling something art/satire/whatever doesn't give it immunity for criticism. There are an infinite number of ways of handling an infinite number of subject matters, and some can obviously be in very poor taste.

And DoA -is- reigning their next game in. Some tournaments were actually disallowing the very revealing "thong" costumes because it was distracting from the whole "fighting game tournament" part of it.

That's not even close to being true. Check out Ivy's reveal trailer on the official Bandai channel. No surprise that the vast majority of comments are about her body. My point was that making half the characters naked doesn't really add to a fighting game except to try to draw in a specific demographic with a lot of flesh. But you're right, at the end of the day the developers will make the games they want and people should vote with their wallet, but that swings both ways so don't complain when stuff like this happens.

@RSM-HQ: Games are art, but they are not art in a vacuum. Ultimately developers have to make something that people want. If you're trying to make an argument that games are better without community feedback, I'd say that's a big resounding "no". Sure there are games that were tanked by bad ideas or by trying to make them appeal to more people, but there are a ton of games that get better because of community feedback. MMOs evolve with feedback from their communities. Diablo 3 removed the awful auction house because of negative feedback. Shadow of War removed loot boxes after a general backlash. Mass Effect improved their shooting mechanics and dropped the awful Mako after everybody complained. Game developers should make the games they want but ignoring the gaming community doesn't help anyone.

-Byshop

And all changes you listed are not cosmetic. All shady dealings for profit, overall terrible gameplay choices from amateur designers, and the freedom taken from customers/ players because they wanted to see if they could.

Very different if you ask me. Claiming changing a game to play respectfully/ to an enjoyable game, is the same as art direction? . . Is non nonsensical. Have you ever considered you are just not the demographic for these games you protest?

I agree monopolising games can't just be thrown in unless the publisher stupidly doesn't expect a backlash (ala Battlefront 2), and the ones you provided are in unredeemable ways that should not be credited or mimiced in the industry.

However if you think Chun Li showing a side thong is the exact same form of insult to a Customer/ Gamer, you are really reaching ser.

And if you read back I clearly stated this

But that doesn't mean companies or developers should listen to irrationality

I think telling a company a game (like Shadow of War) is a cash grab is rational, sensible, and even helpful.

Complaining about Rainbow Mikas butt in a game she looks exactly the same but in 3D is irrational, and from what I've read it came from a loud/ small group who reads closer to having insecurities that may only damage the teams vision and overall product.

I dunno. . As stated I'm hardly a master at discussing this but I know a pointless issue when I see it.

While you have hinted I should hardly speak for everyone; I agree, true. However seems more sensible Capcom should just continue and ignore such questionable 'issues'. It's an artistic choice, and they should stand by it, even if someone like me dislikes it. Not change to fit a smaller crowd that almost makes Capcom file for bankruptcy.

Personally Urien wearing a fundoshi has never made me complain and refuse to sink money into SFIII/ V.

@RSM-HQ: Of course that's not the same as art direction. You changed the subject when you brought up Dark Void, Lost Planet 2, and RE6 to why companies shouldn't let customer feedback change their games. I presented those examples as counterpoints because obviously customer feedback can be a great boon to games.

-Byshop

@Byshop: Dark Void, Lost Planet 2, and Resident Evil 6 was named seeing as they only exist to pander towards the western market. And the standards to what they consider acceptable and interesting. All three examples use a real dull style artistically, filled with stupid robots and generic and flat coloring. I mean you fight a tank and a helicopter in Resi6, just because!

Focus on recreating Call of Duty and Gears of War gameplay mechanics is just the icing on the turd. Though not what I was focusing on. They're bland games lacking any real visual identity. Like it or not but the Street Fighter games have a style and look that stands out; whether you like it or not.

I could name over ten games that look like the three above, just at the top of my head.

Can you back that up with some data? I'll agree that they aren't great games but where are you getting that trying to appeal to a western market is what caused all their problems?

-Byshop

@Byshop:

Can you back that up with some data?

What are you asking for, want sales/ interviews for the flops Dark Void and Lost Planet 2? Or that Capcom state they're changing and appeasing a western market in the early 2000's?

I'm only going to bother doing so much honestly, and the latter would be some serious digging from over a decade ago. My natural assumption that as a mod you may have already heard of these sale flops, company information, PR quotes, and interviews.

However if you expect me to run around and gather multiple necro links? It would depend on the effort and time it would take.

*Edit

2009 interview with Jun Takeuchi san

"Heading overseas into the burgeoning European and Noth America market. Unique sense and skill stand within the mainstream genres of the Western market."

Do Western users tend to prefer to games that let them play the part of the hero? (Takeuchi) "I think so. In fact, many popular Western games don't even show the face of the hero, thus making the hero an alter ego of the player."-Producer of Lost Planet 2.

Capcom Profits Drop Amidst Delays And Underperforming aka Lost Planet 2 and Dark Void. Strong sales of Monster Hunter Tri

Monster Hunter, the game with outfits like these

I highlighted the part I was asking about but perhaps you missed that. You blamed attempted westernization as the reason these games failed but that's a big leap and you haven't backed it up with anything. I've played all three of the games you mentioned, and as I already said they all have problems but they were problems revolving around bad design, not trying to appeal to a western market. Dark Void isn't even a "westernized" game. It was developed by an American company and Capcom published it.

It had meh shooting mechanics and endless waves of same-y enemies. The thing I remember most about that game is how unmemorable it was (the jetpack was cool, though). This wasn't a game ruined by westernization, it was just a bad game.

At least your other two examples were developed by Capcom. Lost Planet 2 took a game core with a single player narrative focus and carved it into these weird little campaign chunks with a shoehorned co-op mode that nobody really wanted. You had to run multiple missions in the same 6 maps over and over, there were no in-mission checkpoints and the missions themselves were really long. They didn't improve the clunky controls from the first game. If you weren't playing co-op the game was crazy hard and just not that fun. The only fun part of that game was the competitive online multiplayer that they carried over from LP1.

RE6 was the least worst of the games you mentioned but it had a ton of problems. The controls were nowhere near as tight as 4 and even 5. The whole story was cut into three separate campaigns which probably wasn't a great idea since it made the pacing and tone very uneven overall. They loaded the game with tons of long QTEs that people hated that could kill you instantly (the kind you'd see in other Japanese games at that time), but they were overused and people got sick of them. In spite of its issues, RE6 was actually pretty successful. It didn't sell a ton up front but it eventually became Capcom's 3rd highest selling game at the time.

So yeah, those games weren't killed by westernization. Hell, look at RE7. You are terrorized by a zombie redneck family in a Texas Chainsaw Massacre-looking house in some backwater in Louisiana. That's the most "western" Resident Evil game ever made. It ended up being their best reviewed RE game in years because it's a really good game. It was the best selling game in the US the month it came out.

-Byshop

@Byshop:

You blamed attempted westernization as the reason these games failed but that's a big leap and you haven't backed it up with anything.

If you say so, I'm not going to keep doing this as you seem very stuck with your own mentality on the matter, regardless what I provide. The original Lost Planet was a success despite having non of the westernisation found in the sequel

Guess which one has a Capcom look to it, and which one is trying to be Halo/ Gears/ and Call of Duty all rolled into one inflated brown mess.

If you want me to magically find an article that states 'west was the problem' I don't think a company like Capcom would be that stupid to state it.

I've played all three of the games you mentioned, and as I already said they all have problems but they were problems revolving around bad design, not trying to appeal to a western market.

Can you really say that looking at the screenshots above?

I don't think visually it helped either, and sure I can't speak why no one bought a game. Many people buy games with bad design so I find that a somewhat weak case personally. Lost Planet 2 is a multiplayer game, and attempted to borrow features and artistic look to cater towards the west. If that's not anything to you, even with the producer constantly mentioning appealing to the western market. . Don't see why you asked me to find anything when you flat out reject what I waste my time providing.

Dark Void isn't even a "westernized" game. It was developed by an American company and Capcom published it.

That's funny, one of the other links I found show Capcom and Airtight worked on two projects together one being a failure, one being the one we got

I may be wrong, but the game seems designed for American sensibilities

How did Airtight and Capcom connect on this project- "We met with Capcom 3 years ago to talk about another project and immediately there was a meeting of the minds between the two teams. The project in question ended up not going forward and we developed Dark Void instead."

Capcom didn't just publish the game, they clearly wanted this kind of game for the company, even if they only took a producer role. And this was during the timeframe they was catering to the west. How is that not "backed up"

Seems to me you may just be encouring me to waste my time for kicks. When I could just move on. It's not like it's a difficult thing to look into, was even surprised how easy it was.

So yeah, those games weren't killed by westernization. Hell, look at RE7. You are terrorized by a zombie redneck family in a Texas Chainsaw Massacre-looking house in some backwater in Louisiana. That's the most "western" Resident Evil game ever made.

Much like CastleVania, Resident Evil always took horror inspiration from western movies and novels. Yet I think you are also not looking at the sections taken from Ringu

But anyway ResiVII still had a look and style that was very traditional Capcom. Resident Evil VII visually very much has a similar look to Resi4; and before they followed the Call of Duty/ Gears trend of harsh browns, a million crates, and marines.

Don't know about you but the areas and creatures reminded me of Remake and 4 in VII.

Much like Revelations I think it's clearly Capcom went back to being themselves at that point when Inafune Keiji san had no further presence or weight in Capcom studios.

For the record I'm not blaming everyone in US or Europe for Capcoms misfortunes, what I am is them following trends and being afraid to be themselves because some loud mouths told them what they should do to be profitable. I like many Western games, but I also don't think Capcom a Japanese company should pretend and cater towards US and European visual standards/ and niche moral restrictions.

It was the best selling game in the US the month it came out.

Not only that, it's one of Capcoms best selling games ever. And I think a heavy part of that is what I mentioned above, it was an actual Resident Evil game, both mechanically and style. Unlike Rev games however had a decent budget and didn't exclude its market being episodic or hardware exclusive.

You know what is Capcoms best selling game to date though? Monster Hunter: World

And artistically it's beautiful like all MH games.