Nothing Justifies Permanent Bans

Nothing justifies gaming firms destroying their customers’ property. These firms claim their "Codes of Conduct" are a contract; however, I do not believe they are since they are not revealed until after purchasing the products and because they are one-sided, meaning it only benefits these firms.

These firms state that it is not their policy to disclose any information regarding the reason for issuing permanent bans and they provide no recourse, stating that permanent bans are final. They foolishly claim that their system is "perfect", thus implying that all victims are guilty as charged without any discussion of the matter. No system is perfect for no human is perfect.

Supposed reasons for permanent bans include using Youtube links in a bios and the use of programs called "Mods". Activision has some of these Mods built into their games; however, using them while playing with others online -- even if you know the players personally -- is considered a big "no, no" . In fact it is considered to be the worst thing anybody could ever do in the gaming world, even worse than bullying.

I believe that thousands of gamers are being victimized by these firms. Since their policy is to not disclose the reason for the bans, I firmly believe that these are issued for either bogus reasons or petty reasons. The firms are claiming that they are simply "protecting the gaming environment" and declare that the use of mods is "detrimental" to the game. Seriously?! These are just games; not life and death situations! Even if a "code" is really violated, a permanent ban is like issuing the death penalty to a jaywalker!

I admit that I am not a gamer, but I see the injustice of this practice not just by a love one who plays games, but by many others who post on sites such as this one stating they have been unjustly treated. I believe them all. Unfortunately, many sites such as this delete comments about the truth regarding permanent bans. Only ones that are left are ones where victims are bullied further by others, picturing them as "nothing more than cheating cry babies". Control the rhetoric; control the people. We see from these posts that this practice actually encourages bullying and the illusion is spread that these firms are “just gods”. Microsoft Xbox is even furthered helped with their “godly” image by Youtube videos that claim a glitch in their system will allow permanent bans to be lifted if the victim simply puts vulgar words in their bios. There is no such glitch, but Xbox uses this as a further “justification” for issuing the permanent ban. At least they did in my love one’s case.

I sincerely doubt that the use of these Mods are "detrimental" as the gaming firms claim. If they are, then why don't they modify their own games to disable these items? They should ban the actions; not destroy the use of someone's property. Or, they could do like Mojang did and let people ban others they don’t want to play with on their own servers. They could even have a server dedicated for players to use as many mods/cheats as they like. Yet, these firms choose to vilify these programs to “justify” in creating a “need” to repurchase the product(s) due to permanent bans. These firms are the cheaters!

Perhaps other gamers find the use of mods/cheats as a nuisance just as a neighbor who plays his music too loud. However, the police would not blow up the neighbor's house! Instead they would simply tell the neighbor to turn down the music and perhaps pay a small fine if he continues to refuse to do so.

I believe that many do repurchase these products (although my love one did not) for various reasons. I can see how many victims want to prove that they are indeed as good as their scores stated and/or they simply want to play with their friends the games that they play. There is much talk of gamers being addicted to gaming. How does this affect those who truly are addicted? I believe it encourages gaming addiction or at least these firms certainly have no problem profiting from this addiction.

This is my first post and I hope that it will not be removed, but I am not holding my breath. The truth about permanent bans must be revealed. Permanent bans must stop and all permanent bans must, at the very least, be lifted.

If i allow you into my house (my property), i get to dictate the terms of how you can stay in my house. It doesn't matter if i charge you $60 for entering my home, i can kick you out whenever for whatever reason even without specifying a reason. Maybe you said something i did not like (banning due to speech) ; and you counter its freedom of speech - well, i don't really care because freedom of speech doesn't apply in private property. Maybe you touched something in my house that was inappropriate for a guest (banning due to modifications). Maybe, i just felt like i didn't like your face after a while (banning without a reason). Everyone of those are perfectly legitimate reasons for kicking you out of my home because i choose the terms of how to handle guests within my home.

Servers, be they game servers or website servers, are private property. And the owners of that property get to dictate the terms of usage for their property. Doesn't really matter whether you feel its unfair or not. Maybe its not good business sense for them to be so arbitrary. But they don't owe you an explanation if they don't want to give it to you. And they don't have to be "fair" based on your standards of fairness. Don't like it? Don't buy their products.

Think of online games as if they were sporting competitions.

If you're caught using performance enhancing drugs (mods), then you'll be permanently thrown out of the competition. Seems fair to me.

As for Terms of Service at whatnot...if you're using their service, you abide by their rules. Each country may have specific warranties that the service has to fulfil, but I doubt any make an allowance for customers to cheat at online games.

Hacking and cheating totally justifies permanent bans.

There is a reason why companies ask you to read their Terms of Use and agree to follow it. If you don't, you surrender yourself to their judgement.

It's really quite simple. Don't cheat.

If you agree to terms then you are expected to abide by them. If you do not, you would be in violation of the agreement you signed which is a form of a legal contract authorization.

Also, the GameSpot moderator team considers accusations of inappropriate behavior amongst our team, seriously. Any complaints about the moderator team should go to DigitalDame, the community team lead.

Thank you.

Oh I think there's certainly things that justify permanent bans. It's their environment so it's there rules plus it helps prevent undersirables from ruining the community. If one can't or doesn't want to play by the rules then they're free to go somewhere else.

Disagree, I wish more developers would follow through with some permanent bans.

Using cheats - Perma Ban

Extreme Rank Ups (I am talking the accounts on some shooter leaderboards where the person has like 1 million kills and 1 death..it used to happen alot on Socom). - Perma Ban

I also support a system similar to CS:GO for other offenses, where you basically build up to longer and longer bans. Leave a ranked match? 30 minute ban....Leave again? 2 Hour ban...ect.

It is time to start putting these trolls in their place, I dont want to play with them and I appreciate the developer taking a stern approach with these people who deserve it.

This is not their property that is being harmed. It is the property of the victims of permanent bans. Their system is not "perfect" as they claim; therefore many many innocent players are being abused by this policy. You don't need these firms to act as your mommy and daddy to decide if you will play with someone else or not. You should be able to decide for yourself. Just let it happen to you and then you will change your stories and don't tell me that it won't happen to you because you "don't cheat". These players don't cheat either, but it has happened to them.

Again, these firms can use servers dedicated only for these mods and/or they can allow people to have their own servers in which they can ban a player if they want to, but the player can use other servers including their own. I personally think mods as in Gary's Mod and Minecraft shows creativity and does not deserve the vile reputation that these firms have given them. That is why I support a server dedicated to mods. It would stop the abuse of innocent players who have had their property destroyed by these firms. Of course, if these firms are afraid that someone else will create a better game then they do, then they should hire these creative individuals. These firms lack innovation as seen by Microsoft Xbox buying Mojang and Activision seems to only be able to make various versions of Call of Duty. The gaming world needs more innovation, but these gaming firms want to stifle it rather than embracing it.

Again I say, nothing justifies a permanent ban. Nothing justifies these firms destroying someone else's property no matter what their "Codes" claim. Thank you all for reaffirming that this policy encourages bullying as you have shown how much you "hate cheaters". Control the rhetoric; control the people.

Okay, I'll admit it - I have no idea what you're talking about.

Firstly, we have to rely on developers' anti-cheat methods to maintain the integrity of online games. If 'hackers' can cheat in games without automated bans (server moderators don't cut it - they're inefficient, and the cheaters would go on to ruin other servers), then the game simply isn't worth playing.

Secondly, if you're worried about the "property" of the consumers (which is a really flawed notion to begin with)...permanent bans actually protect consumer's "property", by ensuring that people can game free from cheaters and other forms of harrasssment (which only ruin their "property").

Thirdly, I have been gaming online for over 15 years now, and I've only rarely heard of legitimate cases of people being unfairly perma-banned from games. As the detection technology gets better and better, the number of incorrect bans is basically negligible. Indeed, in my many years of forum-going experience, the overwhelming majority of people who claim they were unfairly banned are later revealed to be cheating teenagers. They simply lie about it because they want to be unbanned.

Fourthly, tons of online games support mod servers, where you can play variations of the original game. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single online shooter I have played that *hasn't* supported player-made game modes or mechanics. So I have no idea what you are talking about there.

Fifthly...what bullying? If someone sets out to ruin the fun of 31 other people by hacking during a game of Counter-Strike, then that cheating person is clearly a selfish asshole who shouldn't be allowed to play with them anymore. You can either make the game unplayable for the one cheater who deliberately ruins other peoples' fun, or you can make the game unplayable for the 31 other people by not banning the cheater.

The choice is obvious. To ensure that the vast majority of honest gamers actually enjoy the property that they bought, the few selfish cheaters need to be removed.

So yeah, permanent bans are justified.

This

I started playing Xbox when the first Halo came out way before the 360 and I thort i nothing could make me hate xbox until a few years passed and Xbox started to band me and keep in mind at this time I was no longer playing on the first Xbox i now had the 360 and a unlimited amount of games which I was collecting over the years but it was partly my fault for getting banned for life but xbox did not help me at all or give me a chance to make things right they banned me numerous time until they dicided to give me a lifetime band it was because I write a joke messages in my bio telling people if u want to join my friends list I want 800ms points I never did recive any Ms points from anyone no one told me to change my bio they just band me and took all my game all my dlc R MAN I was mad as hell but it's ok ppl sony came to save me last November ps I feel sorry for anyone going slimer problems the only solution I found was SONY!!!

Agreed, and it also sets an example for the next joker who thinks he can do whatever he wants.

To say that "innocent" players who violate the rules of a given system are being "abused" by the organization that runs that system if they get banned for breaking the rules of said system is a tad hyperbolic. You're speaking in really generic terms and lumping any game mod into a single, large category which I don't think is fair. You say that mods are harmless, but obviously if you're talking about any game mod that includes mods that are tantamount to cheats. I agree that game companies shouldn't shy away from mods in general and many game companies agree with this, but at the same time there needs to be a set of governing guidelines that allow players to be able to play the original, unmodified game. Being able to play a multiplayer game with other players without worrying about playing with hackers is more important to most people than being able to play a game that supports mods in some capacity. If you don’t believe me, look at any game that –doesn’t- implement any sort of good anti-hack measures (like Dark Souls 1 for PC) and look at how many people complain how terrible that game’s online play is because of it.

Sure, there are plenty of mods that aren’t straight up cheats but there’s no way to programmatically differentiate between harmful and non-harmful mods. The simple fact of the matter is that if you play a game that does not allow you to use modified code online then you have to follow those rules. I –do- support the idea of a game company supporting “mod” servers as well as non-mod servers, but since they are the ones paying for them it’s ultimately up to them whether or not they want to do that. If they decide they don’t and you disagree with that, then vote with your wallet and don’t buy that game.

-Byshop

Then why should we read anything you write?

Who got bullied in this thread? Also, where did you get the quote "hate cheaters" from...?

Cool story buddy. Blog it.

If a person is going out of their way to harrass or disrupt the entertainment of the others within the server, and the Developers want people to enjoy their product and not only buy it, then they will warn that individual of their behaviour and the consequences if it continues.

If that individual chooses to ignore the warning and keep going with the disruptive behaviour, then naturally they're going to get banned because that is the consequence that was given if they didn't stop. Every action has a reaction and every action creates a consequence.

People who keeps on speeding with their car, will lose their license.

People who keeps aggitating a dog, will get bit.

People who keeps being obnoxious around others, will be refused to be among them.

Welcome to what happens if you don't behave.

Many of you have made it quite clear that you support permanent bans. However, you miss these facts regarding this policy:

• The firms’ policy is to not disclose the reason for a permanent ban. What are they hiding? If someone knowingly violated a “code”, then they would not be telling the person anything new now would they? It is only those who have been wrongly accused of violating a “code” that would naturally be upset about the reason for the permanent ban, especially if there is no real reason, if the reason were petty such as changing an avatar shirt, or if the reason was based on someone’s subjective, perhaps even bigoted, opinion.
• Permanent bans are issued to those who neither cheat nor violate any other “code.” Of course, how can they know if they are not told the “reason?”
• This policy does not stop Mods from being used or created.
• There are other “reasons” permanent bans are issued such as using a Youtube link in a bio. Yet, anyone who complains about permanent bans is automatically ostracized as being a “cheater”. This policy encourages bullying as many of you have shown examples of that in your comments while defending permanent bans by making false claims of the superiority of these firms and the inferiority of any gamer who received a permanent ban, regardless of the real or imagined reason. Gamers are automatically declared guilty based only on the firm’s action of issuing a permanent ban.
• Most sites have “Terms of Use”; however, the firms do not destroy the person’s computer for either a true or an imagined violation. Yet, permanent bans destroys the person’s property, therefore, the person is unable to “play somewhere else” unless they repurchase the item(s) -- something that benefits these firms.
• The system these firms use to issue permanent bans is not perfect as they foolishly claim since no human is perfect. I understand that the firms have players watching these games to “catch cheaters”. These people, being human, can and do make mistakes. Yet firms will neither discuss nor reverse permanent bans, declaring them all final.
• The property of these firms is not being harmed, but the firms are destroying gamers’ property. General Motors doesn't destroy someone’s car, claiming they committed a traffic violation, but “we won’t tell you which one.” Grocers don’t confiscate your food “because you violated a nutrition code, but we won’t tell you which one.” If their property were being harmed, then the firms would contact the police, not issue permanent bans where the “violator” could simply repurchase the product and harm their property again.
• There are other ways to handle these situations (if they really are problems) that would be more fair and not harm innocent gamers:
  • As for the Youtube link, the firm could issue a temporary ban until the gamer either removes the link or pays a small advertising fee.
  • A server dedicated to using Mods could be used so that players who do not wish to use Mods can simply use a different server.
  • Allow people to have their own servers so that they can make their own decision if they want to play with someone or not. Mojang used to do just.
  • They could create programs to disable Mods. If it can be done for virus and malware programs, I believe it can also be done for Mods.

@Bigboi500: All gamers and non-gamers should be appalled of anyone being abused. The policy abuses gamers who do not violate any codes. It does not stop the use of Mods or the creation of Mods, so it certainly does not "protect the gaming environment" as claimed. Instead it encourages bullying since permanent ban victims are automatically declared guilty and mostly "guilty of cheating". Since permanent bans are apparently really based on subjective, not objective, reasons you too could receive a permanent ban for no legitimate reason. You should be concerned about this not just for your fellow gamers, but for yourself as well.

@stopgamingfraud:

"The firms’ policy is to not disclose the reason for a permanent ban. What are they hiding? If someone knowingly violated a “code”, then they would not be telling the person anything new now would they? It is only those who have been wrongly accused of violating a “code” that would naturally be upset about the reason for the permanent ban, especially if there is no real reason, if the reason were petty such as changing an avatar shirt, or if the reason was based on someone’s subjective, perhaps even bigoted, opinion."

Who exactly does this? I'm not aware of any organization that will ban you without telling you why you were banned. You keep stating this like it's a fact, but do you have some specific examples?

"Permanent bans are issued to those who neither cheat nor violate any other “code.” Of course, how can they know if they are not told the “reason?”"

Same question as before.

"This policy does not stop Mods from being used or created."

So? The point is to keep online play fair, not stop the creation of mods. Make as many mods as you want, just don't use them to cheat online.

"There are other “reasons” permanent bans are issued such as using a Youtube link in a bio. Yet, anyone who complains about permanent bans is automatically ostracized as being a “cheater”. This policy encourages bullying as many of you have shown examples of that in your comments while defending permanent bans by making false claims of the superiority of these firms and the inferiority of any gamer who received a permanent ban, regardless of the real or imagined reason. Gamers are automatically declared guilty based only on the firm’s action of issuing a permanent ban."

Again, you state this like it's fact while providing no specific examples.

"Most sites have “Terms of Use”; however, the firms do not destroy the person’s computer for either a true or an imagined violation. Yet, permanent bans destroys the person’s property, therefore, the person is unable to “play somewhere else” unless they repurchase the item(s) -- something that benefits these firms."

Don't cheat or violate the rules of the game and this isn't a problem.

"The system these firms use to issue permanent bans is not perfect as they foolishly claim since no human is perfect. I understand that the firms have players watching these games to “catch cheaters”. These people, being human, can and do make mistakes. Yet firms will neither discuss nor reverse permanent bans, declaring them all final."

Breaking the rules of the game you are playing isn't a mistake, it's a choice. If you choose to do that then you risk a permanent ban.

"The property of these firms is not being harmed, but the firms are destroying gamers’ property. General Motors doesn't destroy someone’s car, claiming they committed a traffic violation, but “we won’t tell you which one.” Grocers don’t confiscate your food “because you violated a nutrition code, but we won’t tell you which one.” If their property were being harmed, then the firms would contact the police, not issue permanent bans where the “violator” could simply repurchase the product and harm their property again."

That's a false analogy. Car manufacturers don't govern driving, the DMV does. And if you think the DMV can't issue "permbans" from driving then you aren't familiar with the law because they absolutely can and will if you repeatedly break the rules of driving. If you repeatedly demonstrate that you are a danger to yourself and others then your license will be taken away without a second though.

"There are other ways to handle these situations (if they really are problems) that would be more fair and not harm innocent gamers..."

How is someone who knowingly violates the rules of a game "innocent"?

-Byshop

You aren't a gamer ... how can you know the moderator didn't give a reason to ban someone ??? Also the rules are very straight foward most of the time and it is easy to see where, how and when you didn't behave.

Also when they ban, they only cut you from the online experience, you can still play your stuff offline etc. Just like Sony locking online fonctionality when they find your PS3 is modded etc. You know that a game .... you don't own it, you own a right to use it but you don't own what is printed on the disk or in the download code.

And pretty much like in your everyday life, you are free as long as you live by the rules of the society, rules that you didn't choose but you comply to follow in order to live a peaceful life. The moment you don't follow the rules there is some conséquences.

Also in gaming you want your costumer to buy more and play your game, if an asshole ruin the fun of it because he cheats or do stupid thing, or go again a set of rules then of course you need to get rid of him and ban him so the rest can still enjoy the game.

I remember on one forum a few years ago I didn't follow one of the rules and got banned for a few weeks and the moderator clearly told me why and so now I behave because I want to continu to enjoy it.

@stopgamingfraud: if you go after someone with hate speech or you cheat you get banned. That's acceptable. If you can't follow simple rules you shouldn't be allowed to play with others

For the multiplayer game I'm writing now, I'm creating the concept of a cheaters purgatory. If you get caught cheating a single time in a competitive multiplayer game you're forever sent to purgatory where everyone who gets caught cheating goes. Here you can cheat against other cheaters to your heart's content. You'll never play against honest players again. You're stats aren't kept, you're never ranked but you can still physically play the game. Trust is absolutely essential in competitive multiplayer games and if honest players don't feel that trust then the game and the entire community suffers.

I think people should be able to cheat as much as they want in single player games. This is actually how I got started down the programming and game development road. I learned how to hex-edit save files in an old Might and Magic game and gave myself all the gold and experience I wanted. Respect for writing your own code, no respect for using other people's cheats.

I don't think there should be a single rule for all cheating in all games. As long as the developer is up front about the rules, I support those rules.

@Byshop: See this link from the BBB as just one example in which Activision states it is their policy not to divulge the reason for a permanent ban.

http://www.bbb.org/losangelessiliconvalley/business-reviews/video-games-wholesale-and-manufacturers/activision-blizzard-in-santa-monica-ca-13075134/complaints

This isn't just in a public forum that they won't disclose the reason as stated in an email by Activision support sent to a personal email account: "Unfortunately due to security and privacy reasons and non-disclosure agreements we cannot divulge why an account has been banned."

This link shows someone who states they were banned for no reason. You can see that Activision doesn't even want people discussing this topic: https://community.callofduty.com/thread/200882016 You can also see others bullying those who rightly complain about unjust permanent bans. Is this really necessary?

Microsoft Xbox has the same policies and mistreats customers just as much as Activision. See this link: https://www.change.org/p/microsoft-wrongly-banning-xbox-consoles-from-acessing-xbox-live

Although, sometimes these firms don't seem to follow their own policies. This link shows that they gave a supposed reason for a permanent ban in a public forum: http://forums.xbox.com/xbox_forums/xbox_support/xbox_360_support/f/41/t/1933834.aspx

This is not simply that people are not following rules. This is about gaming firms abusing gamers by banning them for apparently subjective reasons; not for "not following the rules."

@stopgamingfraud: "Victimized".... Hahahahaha. This is a gaming forum dude, you want me to call the Wahmbulance for you?

@stopgamingfraud: In the BBB link you have what appears to be a young kid (based on the poor spelling and grammar) complaining that he got booted from CoD. Assuming he did nothing wrong (and just because he said he hasn't is not proof that this is true), Activision offered him a full refund for a game he'd put nearly 800 hours into or another copy of the game. How is that victimization. In your change.org link, the guy got unbanned after contacting MS so the creator closed the petition.

But what exactly was your point here? I thought you were arguing that game companies should never ban for the use of mods. None of the links you provided mentioned running modified code.

Yes, in systems like XBL where they may have over one hundred million registered users, they employ automated systems to track for violations of their security and/or policy and sometimes it may be possible that someone who did absolutely nothing wrong may get wrongly banned (although this is extremely rare). In those cases, that person should contact Microsoft and work to resolve the situation like the guy who made that petition did, but saying "nothing justifies a permban" is like saying "hey, remember that one time we arrested a guy for murder who didn't do it. OMG we must stop arresting people for murder to make sure this never happens again."

-Byshop

@Byshop: In addition to that, I would like to see evidence to support the claim that moderators or staff on GameSpot are bullying those who make mods, but I understand that it ought to go to DigitalDame.

@stopgamingfraud: I was perma-banned once from a FTB (Modded Minecraft) server. Why? Don't know. Never told me. I even invested $20 into that server. Sure I was upset. And I knew that I did nothing wrong. I'm sure they banned me for no reason, or a small one that shouldn't be a bannable reason, but hey. It happened. They provide the content, I agreed to use that content within their parameters. They banned me for something, that's the end of it. I move on.

@Byshop: They did not offer a full refund! That is part of the problem is that they don't offer any refunds. Mis-spelled words and poor grammar doesn't necessarily mean it was a kid and even so, is it okay to bully kids? I don't think so!

Here is an example of someone being banned for a subjective reason:

“Identifying Yourself as a Lesbian Gets You Banned”: http://consumerist.com/2009/02/25/identifying-yourself-as-a-lesbian-gets-you-banned-on-xbox-live/

Of course, Microsoft Xbox went to the other extreme and decided to specifically state that gamers can state their sexual preference in their bio and which terms they can use. This is totally unnecessary and is overkill. All they had to do was stop the practice of issuing permanent bans as this opens the door for discrimination such as in this player’s experience.

Someone on this site wrote the following article of the problems of some people wanting to act as “thought police”. http://www.gamespot.com/articles/gdc-2009-the-new-face-of-game-censorship/1100-6206796/

I quite agree that it is wrong to try to regulate morality – and that includes “cheating.”

It isn’t that I support such things as racism or cheating; however, people’s rights are being violated by the use of permanent bans and I believe that most bans are made for unjust reasons including no reasons at all. With apparently many players being addicted to games, these firms seem to think they can do whatever they want without losing revenue and even increasing revenue with banned victims repurchasing the products.

Our Country believes in property rights as it is an important part of Freedom. When someone – anyone -- purchases a game or console, the person has the right to use that item to its fullest potential. It is wrong for the federal government or a corporation to deny them that right regardless of their supposed reason.

We are not talking about someone taking a product, repackaging it, and re-selling the item as their own invention. So the argument that “you don’t buy the game” is invalid. You do buy the game/console and you do have the right to use it. However, I’ll admit that the way these firms work, gamers only buy the chance to play since their game or console can be permanently banned at any time and with no warning or reason. Given that, these items are grossly overpriced!

Microsoft Xbox used to simply state, “Read the codes.”, when someone asked why they were banned. This tells them nothing specific and when someone asked them for specifics, they claimed they could not do so due to “privacy reasons” as Activision claims. Apparently enough complaints have come Microsoft Xbox’s way so that now they claim that a specific site is set up for them to find out why a permanent ban occurred; however as you’ve seen in those links above, they typically still state they cannot do so for “privacy reasons”. Oddly, they do not always follow their own policy as in another case a mother was specifically told that her son “cheated” and supposedly told how he “cheated.”

Again, these firms can approach the issue of Modding in different ways as Mojang showed there is another way. The destruction of property is vandalism and vandalism is wrong, especially when it is done for no reasons, bogus reasons or petty reasons. Either all have the right to use their fully purchased property or no one does. It is wrong to claim that only certain people have the right to play and others don’t, especially when the right is taken from someone simply for subjective (no reason, bogus reason, petty reason, etc.) reasons.

To claim that the only issue is that “if someone breaks a code, then they should be punished” grossly oversimplifies the problem. Gamers are being abused and no one, gamer or not, should condone such practices.

There are plenty of actions that deserve permanent removal from a game. Being an utter prick to people just because they're racist, abused, or because they are a hacker is a well deserved ban in my book. People should be moving closer together on the internet not cutting each other apart.

It's a bit of a slippery slope but a line should be drawn at some point.

A company does have the right to decide if they want to sell to someone or not; however, they do not have the right to destroy someone's property and not give them a full refund for that property. They need to remove all bans or give these people full refunds regardless of the supposed reason, real or unreal, "justified" or not.

How are they destroying someone's property when they ban them?

So if you pay to get in a club does that mean they shouldn't be allowed to kick you out even if you're drunk, smashing the furniture and shouting racial abuse at the other customers?

Instead of a permanent ban, how about a really long one to deter bad behaviour/cheating etc. Perhaps 3 months or something? Pretty harsh but at least you wouldn't lose stuff you've paid for.

@Archangel3371: Because permanent bans renders the product useless. Someone with a banned Xbox account is no longer able to access any games or other items purchased through that account. That is actually stealing which again these firms have no right to do so.

I believe that most bans are for bogus reasons, no reasons, or petty reasons since the firms do not "divulge" the reason for the permanent bans. Telling someone "read the codes" is not a "reason." Therefore, claiming that all permanent bans are deserved is an erroneous assumption. Regardless, all have a right to use their own property or they must be compensated (issued full refunds) if a permanent ban is issued. It can't be that only some can use what they buy and some can't, especially when, I believe, most of the "reasons" for permanent bans are bogus/unjustified.

My mistake. Again, his grammar was so broken I misunderstood what he was trying to write. My point is that if the consumer is a little kid then I take any claims of "I did nothing wrong" with a grain of salt. This may come as a surprise, but generally speaking when someone is punished for breaking a rule the first thing they claim is "I didn't do anything wrong!" even though it's more often the case that not only did they break the rules but they also know exactly what they did to get banned.

Banning cheaters in no way equals censorship or gaming companies acting as "thought police". Games have rules, and allowing players to break those rules breaks those games. As I already mentioned, check out any forum on a game that doesn't employ cheat detection and see how toxic the community is. That's not "regulating morality", that's enforcing the rules of the game and those are two wildly different things. You keep describing this as "bullying", but bullies are who these rules are intended to stop. A person should be able to play a game on XBL without receiving threats or hate speech.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion that even cheaters shouldn't be perm banned, but I think you'll find yourself in the mintority on this one.

-Byshop

It's not their property though. The games you buy don't become your property, you just liscense them and get to use it as long as you follow the terms and conditions that they put fourth.

I seriously doubt that this is the case. While there might be the odd unjustified ban, which probably can be easily rectified, I really doubt that companies go around banning their consumers wiilly-nilly just because like you make it sound. Quite honestly I don't think you know what you're talking about and are just pulling stuff out of your ass.

Did you know that your car can be impounded and taken away from you if you park it illegally? Not only were you the one who paid for the car, but you have to PAY the city who impounded your car to get it back!

Funny how you pay for something, but still have to pay when you break the rules...

The premise of this thread, dealing in absolutes, is ridiculous.

Your accusation does not logically follow from its premise. Someone else could say to the contrary as easily as you have that because reasons are not divulged, the "firms" as you call them (seemingly neglecting independently operating businesses) are legally valid and it would be equally illogical. More to that point, if terms of agreement include reserving right to ban a user for any reason then the main point of your accusations, that bans require reasons beyond petty or no reason, is a moot one. Your argument would be supported by facts infinitely more than conjecture.

That is the reality of the situation you are arguing against. Sorry.

You could challenge any ban in a court, start a claim against the Terms of Service that they MAKE you agree to after the purchase. I think there's something unlawful there and room to argue if you had the time/money/inclination...

Let's contextualise this a little.

I was a regular on the Steam forums from 2004 to around 2013 - 8 or 9 years. During that time, I would have read over a hundred different "I was banned but I didn't do anything!" threads, for all sort of things. VAC bans, bans from individual games, bans from the Market, bans from the Community features...you name it, I read about it.

Why were those threads so interesting to read? It's because just about everyone lied.

Over the course of these threads, either their lies would unravel? or outside sources would confirm that they were in the wrong. "Here's a youtube link to a video of you cheating in-game." "Our chat logs indicate that you were pretending to be Steam Support staff at the time." "Judging from your past usernames, you really were advocating for the externination of homosexuals"...that sort of thing.

In fact, out of the hundred+ threads I read, I don't think I can remember a single legitimate incorrect ban. If it happened, then it was certainly in the minority.

So yeah, you can't take complaints of unjustified bannings at face value. In my experience, it's far less common than the TC is making it out to be - and I doubt that even 1 out of 50 "Why was I banned??" threads have any weight to them.

This sounds like the type of nonsense Anita Sarkeesian would get upset over. The lesbian thing, Xbox Live isn't a dating community.

You have misunderstood a few things here. A game is not your property, you buy a licence to play that game nothing more. Also when you buy that game you agree to any terms and conditions that follows. Meaning that you cannot just behave in any way you want, there are rules like in any social meeting where you have a variety of other people from all walks of life. Particular not using a service that is there because they want to offer that service not because they have to offer it.

This might not seem fair to anyone who have been mislead to believe they are the star and the world revolves around them, but in the real world there are consequences when you misbehave and one of those is a permanent ban, which by the way isn't that permanent in most cases , the person can buy another game, make a new account and play if they choose to.

To illustrate the problem with gaming companies having too much power over the gaming world, I’ll talk briefly about a real-life problem with the federal government and the NDAA. The National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) gives a president, any president, the power to lock up anyone for any reason – and no reason needs to be given. This is a power in which presidents can use to stop political opposition by simply locking away indefinitely all those who opposes his/her policies. Then the opposition is eliminated. Tragically, most Americans do not recognize this power as being a problem because they, as you all who support permanent bans do in the gaming world, believe that it is “okay” since it “only applies to the criminals (rule breakers); not me or my love ones.” Imprisoned indefinitely (no time limit) for any reason means any reason, justified or not, real or not. People need to recognize that it can happen to them and/or their love ones by condoning this presidential possession of power; not because they are “criminals” (rule breakers), but simply because a president (gaming firm) feels like it.

Of course, the gaming world is not about real life, but I believe that this illustrates the problem with anyone having more power than he/she should. Truly innocent people can and are being harmed by this policy. Many people want to do away with the death penalty for the same reason – it is too easy for the innocent to be grossly harmed and as permanent bans are final, death is certainly final.

Again, the gaming world is not about real life problems, but companies do not have the right to do whatever they want to customers – including destroying/stealing their property. Once someone is your customer, you cannot take away the product without giving full refunds. However, that is indeed what is happening with permanent bans and that is why I say: Nothing justifies a permanent ban.

Rich people are not the only ones who play video games, so telling people “just buy another (game, console, etc.)” is a heartless statement. I will not “move on” until the voices of these truly innocent people are really heard on as many sites as I can find. Our Country would still be under British rule if our Founding Fathers had just “moved on” and our Country would still have foolish/childish/racist laws such as forcing Blacks to ride in the back of the bus if Rosa Parks had not shed light on the problem by refusing to “move on.”

Again, other gaming sites, including the gaming firms themselves such as Activision, have deleted my comments regarding the problems with permanent bans. I am pleased to see that this particular site, so far, has not stooped to such dirty tactics. Thank you, Gamespot.

@Installing: Something like that might work, but within reason. These firms still should not give bans to customers for bogus reasons or petty reasons. After asking Microsoft Xbox again and again why my love one's account was banned, the customer service person finally admitted that it was because he changed his avatar. How he changed it? By putting a Minecraft shirt on his avatar -- a shirt that he/she won while playing Minecraft. Mojang verified through an email that it was an easy item to unlock (I think it was something like eating a pork chop) while playing the game.; however, Microsoft Xbox didn't care.. I do not believe that even a temporary ban for reasons such as this (a time when Microsoft Xbox was jealous of Mojang --- and now has bought Mojang) is justified.

You are trying to compare not being allowed to play WoW with wrongful imprisonment? Is not being able to play a video game such an ordeal that you'd compare it to spending time in GitMo? First world problems, I guess...

Permbans can be overturned if they were incorrectly handed out. Hell, some of the bans in the examples you linked were overturned when they realized a mistake had been made. Also, your "property" isn't being destroyed by a ban. You still have the game, and you can still play it. With the exception of MMOs, most games still have value even if the servers are unavailable to you. But bans need to continue to exist because that's the appropriate response to those who knowingly abuse the system.

-Byshop

Permanent bans are fair, don't like it? Stop being an asshole. that's to anyone whose ever been permanently banned

I just wanted to say that I've written some bad stuff on these forums but I have never been banned. But I do know of many people that have been banned permanently for doing lesser things... But bans on games because of cheating? I think bans should be based on some kind of strike system. Like first maybe a warning, then a temporary ban and if offense is repeated multiple times then a full ban.

Gamespot employs a strike system because when it comes to forum posts there's always some room for interpretation when you are moderating discussion. For example, personal attacks and insults are not permitted but anyone who posts in System Wars knows it can get a bit heated over there compared to some of the other forums. In instances like that, it's possible for a person to cross the line without necessarily realizing it or meaning to which is why we use strikes to give users an opportunity to adjust their behavior so that it's in line with our Code of Conduct.

However, there are other activities that are blatantly against rules (or even the law) and they can get you a ban on the first offense. For example, if you create a post on GS trying to sell illegal narcotics or you provide links to malware sites or viruses. These are not things that someone might do "by mistake" and if that's a user's goal here then they are not welcome in the community. Cheating is also not something that someone does by accident and in fact requires a fair amont of effort and is something that should warrant a ban on first offense.

-Byshop