M rating dropped to 16+

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homerwd

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#1 homerwd
Member since 2005 • 1296 Posts
Who thinks this is a good idea, or better yet a new rating all together like T-15+ for games like halo and such.
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DarKre

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#2 DarKre
Member since 2003 • 9529 Posts
No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.
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m0zart

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#3 m0zart
Member since 2003 • 11580 Posts

No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.DarKre

AO should just be dropped altogether :P

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#4 the_mad_madman
Member since 2004 • 316 Posts

[QUOTE="DarKre"]No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.m0zart

AO should just be dropped altogether :P

I think it should be used more often, however remove the stigma behind AO so stores stop treating it like it's nasty porn or a snuff film or whatever. Just be responsible and don't let kids buy the games.

Drop M to 16 and use it for games like Halo for example, which are violent, but in a nonrealistic and nonoffensive way. Meanwhile, use AO more often and make sure kids can't get their hands on those games. Trigger-happy kiddies will still have their explosions while being sheltered from the snuff and various other overly violent and adult games which are clearly not intented for children.

Right now the problem is simply there isn't enough distinction between M and AO. 17-18? I mean, what's that? Make the borders more clear here. And because the borders are so unclear, alot of retailers think AO is some type of skanky porn game where M is just some explosions and stuff. It's just doesn't make much sense.

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homerwd

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#5 homerwd
Member since 2005 • 1296 Posts

[QUOTE="DarKre"]No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.m0zart

AO should just be dropped altogether :P

I think AO should be dropped to, raising it makes no sense. At 18 I could vote, smoke, got to the army, live on my own, pay taxes, by p0rn, but if the A0 rating was rasied I wouldn't be able to buy an AO game.

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Vis-a-Vis

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#6 Vis-a-Vis
Member since 2006 • 1977 Posts
I say leave it the way it is, trigger happy kiddies can wait until they are 17 to buy M rated games.
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rzepak

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#7 rzepak
Member since 2005 • 5758 Posts
I think Mature should be dropped and AO used more often. Just becouse the rating is ADULT ONLY i think parents would pay attention more.
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YourOldFriend

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#8 YourOldFriend
Member since 2005 • 4196 Posts

I think Mature should be dropped and AO used more often. Just becouse the rating is ADULT ONLY i think parents would pay attention more.rzepak

Absolutely, QFT

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homerwd

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#9 homerwd
Member since 2005 • 1296 Posts
Problem is that the AO rating is like Aids, no one will touch it because it means being blacklisted from almost every major retailer and videogame consol. Well, this doesn't affect me yet because i'm only 16.
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rzepak

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#10 rzepak
Member since 2005 • 5758 Posts
Yeah but if AO would be used for more games meaning wider variety of content the stores would have to give in. There is too much money to be lost. Still Im 21 and not in the US so the problem didnt concern me...till they stopped the release of Manhunt 2...
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#11 Phabiuo3
Member since 2004 • 511 Posts
The problem here is parental neglect. Change mature to XXX for all I care if it gets parents to actually pay attention. However, if a child was so inclined, they could easily get their hands on these games without parental approval. Buying stuff online w/ a paypal account with funds from a bank account is easy to set up and ship to a friends house. Online gift certificates are easily accessible too. Just wait to digital distribution. Then the ESRB will have a real nightmare on their hands. I can just see kids already using those keylogs while their parents use Vista's parental control lock!
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homerwd

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#12 homerwd
Member since 2005 • 1296 Posts

The problem here is parental neglect. Change mature to XXX for all I care if it gets parents to actually pay attention. However, if a child was so inclined, they could easily get their hands on these games without parental approval. Buying stuff online w/ a paypal account with funds from a bank account is easy to set up and ship to a friends house. Online gift certificates are easily accessible too. Just wait to digital distribution. Then the ESRB will have a real nightmare on their hands. I can just see kids already using those keylogs while their parents use Vista's parental control lock! Phabiuo3

Well, if those kids are smart enough and resourse(sp) enough to do all of that then i think they're mature enough to handle whaever they get their hands on.:P

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#13 MarkSmith
Member since 2002 • 31168 Posts

No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.DarKre

What exactly does that accomplish?

And how does it make sense that 18 year olds would be allowed to see actual breasts in a strip club, but not pixelated breasts in a videogame?

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homerwd

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#14 homerwd
Member since 2005 • 1296 Posts

[QUOTE="DarKre"]No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.MarkSmith

What exactly does that accomplish?

And how does it make sense that 18 year olds would be allowed to see actual breasts in a strip club, but not pixelated breasts in a videogame?

OFT.

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#15 BeeefIsGoood
Member since 2007 • 1418 Posts
[QUOTE="MarkSmith"]

[QUOTE="DarKre"]No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.homerwd

What exactly does that accomplish?

And how does it make sense that 18 year olds would be allowed to see actual breasts in a strip club, but not pixelated breasts in a videogame?

OFT.

yeah i agree too

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cookoo4cocopuff

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#16 cookoo4cocopuff
Member since 2005 • 793 Posts

Who thinks this is a good idea, or better yet a new rating all together like T-15+ for games like halo and such. homerwd

i think its a good idea. Ratings in video games are waaay overrated

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#17 duxup
Member since 2002 • 43443 Posts
Considering the current political climate I don't think lowering the age limits on ESRB ratings would do much good, possible just the opposite.
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homerwd

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#18 homerwd
Member since 2005 • 1296 Posts
True, what irks me is that the movie rating system(mpaa) is worse than the esrb, yet videogames get blamed the most for violent behavior among kids.
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#19 GC4ever
Member since 2004 • 3044 Posts
it should stay the same
think of it like movie ratings
thats why the way it is
if anything stores shouldn't force no mature game selling under 18
if you're 17 you can buy the game
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#20 Korubi
Member since 2003 • 261 Posts
It does seem kind of odd that M and AO are so close together, but I think the system's worked well enough so far. Plus, like duxup said, changing it now would probably cause a lot of problems the ESRB doesn't want to have to deal with right now. If the system was somehow broken, I could see the need for change. Otherwise, it's probably going to stay the way it is.
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#21 JDUB_x
Member since 2003 • 2828 Posts

[QUOTE="DarKre"]No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.m0zart

AO should just be dropped altogether :P

AO does not need to be droped, Sony Nintendo and MS need to not ban AO games from their consoles.

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KarlCarlson3

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#22 KarlCarlson3
Member since 2004 • 12692 Posts

It does seem kind of odd that M and AO are so close together, but I think the system's worked well enough so far. Plus, like duxup said, changing it now would probably cause a lot of problems the ESRB doesn't want to have to deal with right now. If the system was somehow broken, I could see the need for change. Otherwise, it's probably going to stay the way it is.Korubi

Well, AO is basically what games get if they're deemed too offensive and then in turn aren't able to be released because Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo won't allow it. So the ESRB can basically just make developers tone down their content by giving it an AO rating. How's that not broken?

While the ESRB is kind of in a tough spot right now with all the critisicm and more attention being given to the gaming industry by politicans and the like and changing it now might cause issues, I do think the rating system needs to be refined a bit because I don't feel that it's as effective as it could be.

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#23 Abby88
Member since 2004 • 642 Posts

I actually just wrote a blog about what I think the ideal game rating scheme would be. Basically, I think most of the games that are currently M rated should be dropped down to 15+ (or maybe 16+), have the AO games and some M games be 18+, and have a seperate rating for porn games. That way, the 18+ rating could avoid the stigma of being associated with porn.

Although, as flawed as the ESRB may be, IMO the biggest problem is that the console companies aren't allowing us to play AO games. They need to fix that first, then we can worry about altering the ESRB.

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#24 gqman2121_basic
Member since 2002 • 4322 Posts

M rated games need to make the jump UP TO 18+. Get that 17 age restriction the hell out of here. It makes almost no sense.

AO needs to get the axe altogether. OR.......

The M rating needs to go, and AO needs to become the new standard for the console developers to allow on their systems.

Basically, I believe that something needs to be changed, and if congress has to get involved then I'm all for that. The ESRB doesn't have any cred in my eyes, and pretty much don't know what the hell's going on half the time.

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#25 Korubi
Member since 2003 • 261 Posts

[QUOTE="Korubi"]It does seem kind of odd that M and AO are so close together, but I think the system's worked well enough so far. Plus, like duxup said, changing it now would probably cause a lot of problems the ESRB doesn't want to have to deal with right now. If the system was somehow broken, I could see the need for change. Otherwise, it's probably going to stay the way it is.KarlCarlson3

Well, AO is basically what games get if they're deemed too offensive and then in turn aren't able to be released because Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo won't allow it. So the ESRB can basically just make developers tone down their content by giving it an AO rating. How's that not broken?

While the ESRB is kind of in a tough spot right now with all the critisicm and more attention being given to the gaming industry by politicans and the like and changing it now might cause issues, I do think the rating system needs to be refined a bit because I don't feel that it's as effective as it could be.

Each rating has specific guidelines that are open to the public to see. The ESRB doesn't make developers do anything. It also doesn't say that AO games should be banned. All the ESRB does it rate games according to their system. If companies don't want AO games published, that's their choice. It's also the choice of game developers to (not) create content that would achieve such a rating. You're making the ESRB out to be the bad guy here, when they're just doing their job.

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#26 nopalversion
Member since 2005 • 4757 Posts
[QUOTE="m0zart"]

[QUOTE="DarKre"]No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.the_mad_madman

AO should just be dropped altogether :P

I think it should be used more often, however remove the stigma behind AO so stores stop treating it like it's nasty porn or a snuff film or whatever. Just be responsible and don't let kids buy the games.

Drop M to 16 and use it for games like Halo for example, which are violent, but in a nonrealistic and nonoffensive way. Meanwhile, use AO more often and make sure kids can't get their hands on those games. Trigger-happy kiddies will still have their explosions while being sheltered from the snuff and various other overly violent and adult games which are clearly not intented for children.

Right now the problem is simply there isn't enough distinction between M and AO. 17-18? I mean, what's that? Make the borders more clear here. And because the borders are so unclear, alot of retailers think AO is some type of skanky porn game where M is just some explosions and stuff. It's just doesn't make much sense.

Wholeheartedly agree. AO should literally mean "intended for adult audiences", and cover ages 19+. If that means moving many M-rated games to AO status, so be it.

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#27 m0zart
Member since 2003 • 11580 Posts

Right now the problem is simply there isn't enough distinction between M and AO. 17-18? I mean, what's that? Make the borders more clear here. And because the borders are so unclear, alot of retailers think AO is some type of skanky porn game where M is just some explosions and stuff. It's just doesn't make much sense.

the_mad_madman

I think you are right, the problem is that the AO rating becomes effectively a soft ban on anything other than PC games. It has become like the NC-17 rating -- extremely limiting the audience by carrying a huge number of outlets that refuse to carry the game with the extreme rating, resulting in a rating that isn't so much used to inform the public of content (i.e. it's purpose) but to impune a group of artists for their choice of content or pressure them into modifying it in order to keep it going. It is easy to say that the industry itself is just self-censoring, but an "industry" is not a separate interest vs. the interests of the artists that make it up. In this case, I give more credence to those who buck the trends of an industry than I do those who play within their own set of ill-defined rules about expression.

In that regard, I fully realize that Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony are doing nothing intrinsically wrong by refusing to allow AO rated games on their platforms, just as I think that outlets that don't want to carry such games are doing nothing wrong, and I wouldn't force them to do otherwise for the world. This isn't really a typical libertarian rant about the role of Government because overall Government has played a very limited role in this (though it does play some role). Given that the ESRB is an industry panel rather than a Government panel, it is effectively the industry trying to police itself, and as a customer of that industry, I am not happy when very adult content is kept from my very adult eyes based on this policing. I see very little choice other than to express my vocal opposition to the power behind the AO rating, and my financial opposition when it is convenient to me personally.

In order to think that the rating is just doing its intended job, I have to formulate an opinion on what that job is and what it should be. I think that what it should be is a rating that informs the buying public that content in this case is only for adults. In other words, regardless of what the intent of the AO rating was initially, what it has become is the industry's "scarlet letter(s)". Its role in the ESRB has become more than just a content report, and more of a moral judgement made for others. As a customer of that industry, I'd like to be able to decide whether that content is good or bad for myself, rather than allow the industry to do that deciding as a whole. I don't think that can easily be done without removing the tool that has been used in that way, namely, the AO rating itself. Of course, the danger is that it will just turn the M-rating into such the same sort of tool, but I don't personally think that's going to happen. The M-rating and AO-rating being in such close age-proximity allowed one rating to naturally fill the role of informer and the other to naturally fill the role of regulator, and even with a move of M to 16, I don't think the stigma has been or will be removed. With only one rating (which is really all that is needed), there are no differences to use as bargaining chips. Additionally, console makers and retail outlets will have much less motivation to exclude what went from a small group of games branded with a mark of Cain to a larger group of games that fit the tastes of increasingly adult gamers. If M is to become a 16-only rating, then AO should be at least renamed to remove the "X-rated" stigma it has unfortunately come to represent.

I'd like to close this by saying that there is more to opposing a particular industry or Government practice than just stating that it is within its own carefully defined rules, and thus "doing its job" per se. That some individual, group, or Government is following a given policy doesn't answer the more important question, which is in this case, does the policy work properly by a rational standard that protects everyone's ability to make their own decisions about the content they choose to see. That they are following a policy isn't enough, it needs to be a policy that works for its stated purpose -- to inform choices. Policy by itself is just a neutral cavity -- it can be the means by which choice is protected in this regard, or it can be the means by which human beings actively prevent other human beings from seeing content they object to. So to that end, policies can be enacted by the ESRB which make this ideal possible, or they can be enacted in such a way that they ultimately lead to the same result as a Government ban on such material, even if they aren't using the same overall means to that end. I would rather have more of the former and none of the latter.

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#28 Clan_Crushbone
Member since 2007 • 1501 Posts

AO should just be dropped altogether :P

Agreed.

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#29 -Prime-
Member since 2006 • 964 Posts
[QUOTE="m0zart"]

[QUOTE="DarKre"]No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.the_mad_madman

AO should just be dropped altogether :P

I think it should be used more often, however remove the stigma behind AO so stores stop treating it like it's nasty porn or a snuff film or whatever. Just be responsible and don't let kids buy the games.

Drop M to 16 and use it for games like Halo for example, which are violent, but in a nonrealistic and nonoffensive way. Meanwhile, use AO more often and make sure kids can't get their hands on those games. Trigger-happy kiddies will still have their explosions while being sheltered from the snuff and various other overly violent and adult games which are clearly not intented for children.

Right now the problem is simply there isn't enough distinction between M and AO. 17-18? I mean, what's that? Make the borders more clear here. And because the borders are so unclear, alot of retailers think AO is some type of skanky porn game where M is just some explosions and stuff. It's just doesn't make much sense.

Good post because that is exactly what I was going to say.

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MKHavoc

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#30 MKHavoc
Member since 2007 • 1100 Posts
I think there should be new rating between T and M, like a T-15. Most 15 and 16 year olds are playing these M rated games anyway, they're not all going out and killing people so they must be able to handle this stuff. There are plenty of M rated games out there that could have gotten this T-15rating. The most recent game I can think of is Crackdown. Did anyone who finished that game actually think kids under 17 couldn't play it?If this would happen there probably wouldn't be a need for the AO rating because games that would normally get that would get an M instead.
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#31 cametall
Member since 2003 • 7692 Posts
[QUOTE="m0zart"]

[QUOTE="DarKre"]No, its not that M should be dropped, its that AO should be raised. To 19 instead of 18.the_mad_madman

AO should just be dropped altogether :P

I think it should be used more often, however remove the stigma behind AO so stores stop treating it like it's nasty porn or a snuff film or whatever. Just be responsible and don't let kids buy the games.

Drop M to 16 and use it for games like Halo for example, which are violent, but in a nonrealistic and nonoffensive way. Meanwhile, use AO more often and make sure kids can't get their hands on those games. Trigger-happy kiddies will still have their explosions while being sheltered from the snuff and various other overly violent and adult games which are clearly not intented for children.

Right now the problem is simply there isn't enough distinction between M and AO. 17-18? I mean, what's that? Make the borders more clear here. And because the borders are so unclear, alot of retailers think AO is some type of skanky porn game where M is just some explosions and stuff. It's just doesn't make much sense.

Well, most AO games are porn. The only reason ESRB ever rates a game AO is because of porn and I bet that porno theater in Manhunt 2 had a lot to do with the AO rating.

I think they should have just recycled the movie ratings. I think a parent might react better to seeing "R" rather than "M" or "MA." Because everyone knows what "R","PG13","PG","G", and "NC17" mean.

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#32 kitty  Moderator
Member since 2006 • 115434 Posts
why would M be changed to that, i think if anything it should stay the way it is and the AO rating should be used more often
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#33 SleepyByte
Member since 2007 • 305 Posts

Each rating has specific guidelines that are open to the public to see. The ESRB doesn't make developers do anything. It also doesn't say that AO games should be banned. All the ESRB does it rate games according to their system. If companies don't want AO games published, that's their choice. It's also the choice of game developers to (not) create content that would achieve such a rating. You're making the ESRB out to be the bad guy here, when they're just doing their job.

Korubi

I commented on this in the Manhunt mega thread because I felt that was the more appropriate place for what I had to say :)

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#34 KarlCarlson3
Member since 2004 • 12692 Posts
[QUOTE="KarlCarlson3"]

[QUOTE="Korubi"]It does seem kind of odd that M and AO are so close together, but I think the system's worked well enough so far. Plus, like duxup said, changing it now would probably cause a lot of problems the ESRB doesn't want to have to deal with right now. If the system was somehow broken, I could see the need for change. Otherwise, it's probably going to stay the way it is.Korubi

Well, AO is basically what games get if they're deemed too offensive and then in turn aren't able to be released because Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo won't allow it. So the ESRB can basically just make developers tone down their content by giving it an AO rating. How's that not broken?

While the ESRB is kind of in a tough spot right now with all the critisicm and more attention being given to the gaming industry by politicans and the like and changing it now might cause issues, I do think the rating system needs to be refined a bit because I don't feel that it's as effective as it could be.

Each rating has specific guidelines that are open to the public to see. The ESRB doesn't make developers do anything. It also doesn't say that AO games should be banned. All the ESRB does it rate games according to their system. If companies don't want AO games published, that's their choice. It's also the choice of game developers to (not) create content that would achieve such a rating. You're making the ESRB out to be the bad guy here, when they're just doing their job.

That may be, but the AO rating hasn't been used as it should've been up until this. It's primarily games with excessive sexual content that get the rating. Games like the Postal series or even the first Manhunt, which I believe fit in the description for an AO game, all received M ratings, yet Manhunt 2 gets an AO. It's the second game that I'm aware of that recieved an AO rating due to violence. Now I'm not saying the game doesn't deserve the AO rating, but maybe they should've been rating excessively violent games AO instead of starting now since they're being watched a bit more. Also, don't get me wrong, I think it's a good thing that they're using the AO rating. I just think they should've been using it all along, which is easy to say after the fact. My choice of words in my last post weren't the greatest now that I read it over again. Although I do still think the system needs refining, mainly in the distinction between the M and AO ratings.

EDIT: I deviated a bit from the topic at hand and turned it more into about Manhunt 2. I don't know why, but whatever...