Important message to our users regarding online harassment

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mondoben

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#1  Edited By mondoben  Staff
Member since 2006 • 43 Posts

This thread is for you all to discuss our recent message to the community while we have some issues with the commenting system on the story:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/an-important-message-to-our-users-regarding-online/1100-6423008/

Keep it civil please folks, thanks

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Catalli

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#2 Catalli  Moderator
Member since 2014 • 3453 Posts

Something tells me those who most need to read the article and to whom it refers will pay it no heed and those who most agree with the article are those who talk and act correctly without the need of such reminders...

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The_Last_Ride

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#3 The_Last_Ride
Member since 2004 • 76371 Posts

Who is harassing? That stuff needs to stop, there have been some heated debates in SW and OT. But nothing that resembles harassment

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thehig1

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#4 thehig1
Member since 2014 • 7471 Posts

@The_Last_Ride said:

Who is harassing? That stuff needs to stop, there have been some heated debates in SW and OT. But nothing that resembles harassment

It looks like its referring more to the comments sections to articles I could be wrong though.

Your right about the forums, there is nothing that resembles harassment.

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Avenging_Knight

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#5 Avenging_Knight
Member since 2003 • 25 Posts

Translation of the Code of Conduct: We are promoting an atmosphere of tolerance and inclusiveness Therefore any posts containing statements or opinions we do not agree with will not be tolerated and you will not be included in the discussion.

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RDBGS

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#6 RDBGS
Member since 2014 • 26 Posts

I agree with the article. I love the content on this site as well as the staff that create it. I love video games, and believe that they deserve a lot more credit as an art form as well as a reasonable, mature form of entertainment. I believe that in order for the majority of current non-gamers to agree, communities like this need to take a stand. I hope you back this up, Gamespot, with moderating.

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musalala

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#7  Edited By musalala
Member since 2008 • 3126 Posts

Does this go both ways because from what I can see they is an awful amount of harassment going from Anti GG people, I assume this about gamergate.

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BlackMoes

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#9 BlackMoes
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

Where are all those comments on the article? Come on gamespot.

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CapybaraRider

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#10 CapybaraRider
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

yay, we broke it

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gamerboy100

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#11  Edited By gamerboy100
Member since 2004 • 743 Posts

@Wicked869: I assume you're one of the minority who is making the rest of us decent gamers look bad.

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skootbootz

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#12  Edited By skootbootz
Member since 2014 • 147 Posts

What gives GS? You have put out at least 2 articles this week that are basically image preserving. One regarding how and why you give a game 10/10, which in all honesty is a pointless article that was only written in response of people being mad that Bayonetta 2 got good reviews and now this one telling people not to be mean. I understand that you want to preserve the image of the site, but by doing so you neglected to do your job more or less, which is providing a place for people to read about titles that have been released. What am I talking about? Well, only one of the most anticipated horror games to come out this year I speak of course about The Evil Within its been out for days and yet nothing. I'm guess the decision to not put the review out this week was so that these articles could be written in hopes that GS doesn't have another 10K comment section more or less abusing the critic. It is kind of hard to believe that there isn't a single person on staff that has not played the game and if that is the case maybe firing your writers was a bad idea after all, because as a result you have basically failed your audience, regardless if they are childish and abusive or not.

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Wicked869

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#13 Wicked869
Member since 2013 • 25 Posts

@gamerboy100: No I am the minority who is being harassed and Gamespot has let it continue.

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uninspiredcup

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#14  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 45763 Posts

I wasn't aware gamespot was being abused. Seemed to be a bunch of people from other sites but gamespot. Eh, wasn't really following the gamergate thing anyway, got boring fast.

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assertiveuser_

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#16 assertiveuser_
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

whats happening D:

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jyml8582

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#17 jyml8582
Member since 2003 • 1709 Posts

I didn't know there's a forum for stuff!!

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OuroborosChoked

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#18  Edited By OuroborosChoked
Member since 2005 • 231 Posts

So mondoben... you mentioned very, very briefly that "some of the debate" has been about ethics in games journalism... and then you abruptly went on to rail against harassment.

Let me tell you something: nobody stands for harassment. #GamerGate is extremely opposed to harassment... though I can't say the same for your doxx-dropping comrades in arms... Coming out against harassment achieves nothing because nobody is pro-harassment except jerks. I can only assume, unlike Gamasutra, your policies do not include "be jerks to our users". There's no risk in coming out against something everybody's already against.

That being said, what are Gamespot's ethical standards? Why not talk about that? Wasn't it this very site that (allegedly... sure) fired Jeff Gerstmann after giving Kain and Lynch a not-that-glowing review... in the middle of a Kain and Lynch ad campaign? Don't you think Gamespot, as much as any other site out there, owes it to its readers to be transparent about this?

By way of example, I'd like everyone who reads this to check out ElderGeek.com. The owner, Randy, posted a video today talking about his site's ethical practices, how he will be more up-front about where he gets his review copies, etc... and he's never had to. He's had integrity from DAY 1... and he's stepping up before anyone even asks. You haven't, Gamespot. I'm having to ask you right now. Step up or step aside. You will be washed away if you fail to see the rising tide.

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Chr0noid

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#19 Chr0noid
Member since 2004 • 207 Posts

Yeah GameSpot, I have a response to your little overly self-righteous article.

Corruption in gaming journalism. WE won't stand for it.

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Archangel3371

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#20 Archangel3371
Member since 2004 • 35285 Posts

Great article and I whole-heartidly agree. Keep up the great work.

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CholoJones

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#21 CholoJones
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

I don't understand the point of this article. Are we to believe that harassment is morally ambiguous and you've only come out on this side of it after weeks of careful consideration? Because that's what the tone and timing of this "message" suggests.

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forkandplate

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#22  Edited By forkandplate
Member since 2013 • 25 Posts

It's good to know you don't tolerate harassment, especially since the comment section can get pretty heated. It's perfectly fine to disagree with someone or something but things like threats, insults and just otherwise bad behavior shouldn't be tolerated, and I'm glad you guys are taking a stand against it.

Keep up the good work.

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Prats93

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#24 Prats93
Member since 2013 • 204 Posts

This is why Gamergate needs to die. These people are using the "journalistic integrity" non-argument as a mere guise to disguise the fact that their real motivations are to attack women in the industry or those with whom they don't agree with. Quite sad and pathetic really.

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CholoJones

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#25 CholoJones
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

@sataricon: Yeah, where is GameSpot's opinion on the guy who called on people to bully "nerds?"

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pinky08_09

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#26 pinky08_09
Member since 2010 • 38 Posts

@OuroborosChoked: there has already been a very open Video about all the kane and Lynch fiasco bpack when giantbomb was acquired. By Jeff himself. Look it up. Its very interesting.

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OuroborosChoked

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#27 OuroborosChoked
Member since 2005 • 231 Posts

@prats93: Yup, because there are no problems in games journalism. Nothing to see here, folks. No harassment of gamers. No "'gamers' are dead" bullying by games journos. No doxxing of twitter users who are speaking up and not harassing anyone. No calling gamers neckbearded, basement-dwelling nerds by journos. No calling female gamers sock puppets or pretending they don't exist. No agenda pushing. No lying. No backroom collusion to lie to gamers or rig development competitions. No hypocrisy. No nepotism...

Nope... it's aaaaaaaall about harassment of women. Of course it is. Clearly, you have seen through the bulls**t to the REAL issue.

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OuroborosChoked

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#28  Edited By OuroborosChoked
Member since 2005 • 231 Posts

@pinky08_09: It was just an example of why it would be important specifically for Gamespot to step up on this issue: because they've been caught before. I think I've watched the video... but I'll look for it again and re-watch. According to an interview with the Escapist though, Gerstmann suggests (without saying it outright) that he was either forced out or fired because Eidos threatened to pull ad revenue after the review. So yeah... not the point of my comment, but very relevant regardless.

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zyxe

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#29 zyxe  Moderator
Member since 2005 • 5221 Posts

@Avenging_Knight said:

Translation of the Code of Conduct: We are promoting an atmosphere of tolerance and inclusiveness Therefore any posts containing statements or opinions we do not agree with will not be tolerated and you will not be included in the discussion.

This is incorrect. Opposing opinions are welcome if they are respectful and promote productive debate and conversation. Destructive comments that are abusive, insulting or simply inflammatory are against the Code of Conduct and will not be tolerated.

@Chr0noid said:

Yeah GameSpot, I have a response to your little overly self-righteous article.

Corruption in gaming journalism. WE won't stand for it.

There is a difference between not standing for corruption in gaming journalism and promoting hatred and disrespect. A lot of comments illustrate the latter and are not welcome, but a healthy debate over journalistic integrity using facts and non-insulting opinions should be fine and is encouraged.

@Wicked869 said:

@gamerboy100: No I am the minority who is being harassed and Gamespot has let it continue.

If you are suffering harassment, please contact the Staff or PM the moderators and we can get you in contact with a staff member to help ensure harassment does not continue.

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Rakou

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#30 Rakou
Member since 2008 • 27 Posts

QUESTION:

Where do you draw the line with fan-wars? It's a grey area, because such arguments and conflicts have been a part of the gaming community for decades. Is such interactions tolerable? A statement such as "<this console> has no exclusives, it sucks" could be seen as harassment by some.

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uninspiredcup

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#31  Edited By uninspiredcup
Member since 2013 • 45763 Posts

@OuroborosChoked said:

That being said, what are Gamespot's ethical standards?

Who cares. gobuydestiny.

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branketra

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#32 branketra
Member since 2006 • 51726 Posts

@Rakou said:

QUESTION:

Where do you draw the line with fan-wars? It's a grey area, because such arguments and conflicts have been a part of the gaming community for decades. Is such interactions tolerable? A statement such as "<this console> has no exclusives, it sucks" could be seen as harassment by some.

System Wars is designed for users to pick consoles to support and have tongue-in-cheek commentary about the competition. Games Discussion and its previous iterations is meant for more in-depth conversations. Both forums have disagreements and agreements, but there are distinct differences in the guidelines for how they are allowed expression within each forum.

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Behardy24

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#33 Behardy24
Member since 2014 • 5324 Posts

@assertiveuser_ said:

whats happening D:

I'm unsure as well.

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The_Inebriator

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#34 The_Inebriator
Member since 2007 • 156 Posts

While I understand you guys feeling the need to declare your stance on what should be a common sense issue of human decency, we all know that such noble gestures do not mix well with the anonymous idiocy of the Internet. Unfortunately the worst of society will always scream over each other to make their depravity known to all. Just remember the sane majority are still around

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WuShogun212

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#36 WuShogun212
Member since 2013 • 97 Posts

I don't condone attacking anybody online or offline, but here is the problem I have with the whole gamers raging and/trolling people which seem to be mostly feminists pushing to improve the perception of woman in video games, YOU as a video game journalistic platform should not be taking one side of an issue such as feminist expressing ill informed "facts" on an art that we all love. As journalist you should report both sides and let's be honest the fear that most (if not all) these gaming sites have of feminists is sad, you don't even want to risk being in the line of their fire. You are more than willing to report/promote a new video that a feminist made about how video games are sexist or misogynistic but you won't even dare report the counter argument to these accusations. All we want is fair and balanced gaming journalism and not have to worry about an agenda being pushed or an article that presents a one sided criticism. I have yet to see a popular gaming website stand up and face/challenge the criticism games have been getting from feminists.

To the gamers making death threats, I wish they wouldn't but I understand the rage. When "we" the average gamers are not being heard we take out our frustration on people over the internet, some are presenting great arguments and others are making unjustifiable death threats. Just like in any society where the people are not being represented there is a protest or a revolt against the person causing the injustice or the system who are supporting them. All the media is focused on is the gamers who are making threats not the gamers who are making rational intelligent counter points to issues like feminist attacks on gaming. In the message you guys posted in the news section you said you "refuse to give oxygen to a disturbing minority who seek to use this debate as an excuse for their own appalling actions", but that's not true, you would rather post about gamers threatening the life of someone than reporting gamers making intelligent points, you promote one for clicks but ignore the other. You're not only giving them oxygen you're feeding them a hot meal and running a nice warm bath for them too. Women, journalist, and developers wouldn't be getting attacked if the gaming media presented both sides fairly, but they don't, so instead of informing people you are just adding more ignorance to an all ready ignorant filled community.

Gamespot should be a spot for gamers to come and get fair news on the hobby they absolute love, not a cesspool for imbalanced promotion of professional wolf crying "activists". Though I don't agree with the method of being heard I do share the same feeling of disappointment in the current journalism gaming has. I know its a long post but I think its important.

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cdragon_88

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#37 cdragon_88
Member since 2003 • 1776 Posts

LOL this crap is getting out of hand.

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Fenriswolf

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#38 Fenriswolf
Member since 2004 • 207 Posts

@WuShogun212 said:

To the gamers making death threats, I wish they wouldn't but I understand the rage. When "we" the average gamers are not being heard we take out our frustration on people over the internet, some are presenting great arguments and others are making unjustifiable death threats. Just like in any society where the people are not being represented there is a protest or a revolt against the person causing the injustice or the system who are supporting them. All the media is focused on is the gamers who are making threats not the gamers who are making rational intelligent counter points to issues like feminist attacks on gaming. In the message you guys posted in the news section you said you "refuse to give oxygen to a disturbing minority who seek to use this debate as an excuse for their own appalling actions", but that's not true, you would rather post about gamers threatening the life of someone than reporting gamers making intelligent points, you promote one for clicks but ignore the other. You're not only giving them oxygen you're feeding them a hot meal and running a nice warm bath for them too. Women, journalist, and developers wouldn't be getting attacked if the gaming media presented both sides fairly, but they don't, so instead of informing people you are just adding more ignorance to an all ready ignorant filled community.

In other words, you're engaging in victim blaming. Cultural products, be it gaming, music, films, or films, gets criticized all the time by a variety of different positions. Hell, I enjoy watching certain movies with hyper-masculine heroes slaughtering hundreds of mooks, and there are all sorts of criticism on its gender, race, and class contents. I read such critiques, and still chose to enjoy such films regardless, because I understand that acknowledging someone's else's position doesn't have to come at a cost of your own. If you're so insecure about your beliefs that an article makes you lash out and send people death threats, then the problem lies with you, not the other person.

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Fenriswolf

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#39 Fenriswolf
Member since 2004 • 207 Posts

And what's funny is that one of the spiritual leaders of Gamergate writes for Breitbart, a site notorious for its lurid conspiracy theories against anyone who doesn't follow their ultra conservative ideals. Hell, they have a habit of recording hidden footage of certain people, ask them trap questions, selectively edit them to act as if they're in the wrong. So far, all of their footage has been discredited, but their fallout caused the federal defunding of ACORN, an organization for helping the working class (Breitbart edited footage to alleged that they support illegal immigration), as well as a woman who worked for the Georgian Agricultural Dept being fired (Breitbart alleged that Shirley Sherrod made racist comments, but in reality she made them in the context of critiquing her past). Even the author of the "feminist bullies" article was noted for his distaste of gaming culture before he found that he can easily manipulate the situation for his own needs. The very fact that GG uncritically accept Breitbart, even in the context of journalistic ethics, makes me cringe.

What's sad is that I actually agree with many of the critiques of Kotaku and other Gawker media sites, which often engage in sensationalist headlines that often misrepresent others. But you should fight poor entertainment journalism with poorer political journalism, as the latter has far more consequences for society as a whole. As much I wanted to support greater accountability in gaming journalism, being a politically conscious person, I cannot allow opportunists to misrepresent my positions for their own ends.

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emperiox

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#40  Edited By emperiox
Member since 2009 • 737 Posts

You want me to keep it clean? OK, but I'll still lay out. Don't act like Gamespot is honest. You guys fired Jeff Gerstmann because you didn't like the fact that he gave Kane and Lynch a low review score. You keep putting Anita up on a pedestal to bait people on here knowing full well that she is in the wrong. Then when people point it out, you guys write articles defending your viewpoints and saying that we are all misogynistic for not agreeing with her sexist viewpoints. You guys are worse than Fox News.

You guys have a lot to do before you can call yourselves honest journalists...so please stop playing the victim card, Gamespot.

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ReadingRainbow4

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#41 ReadingRainbow4
Member since 2012 • 18733 Posts

This just seems like a ploy for you to gain attention when you weren't part of the original debate in the first place.

I wonder how long this site has left, just witnessing how many forum users left due to the site changes alone is telling.

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emperiox

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#42 emperiox
Member since 2009 • 737 Posts

@ReadingRainbow4:

@ReadingRainbow4 said:

This just seems like a ploy for you to gain attention when you weren't part of the original debate in the first place.

I wonder how long this site has left, just witnessing how many forum users left due to the site changes alone is telling.

That's exactly what this is.

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WolfgarTheQuiet

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#43  Edited By WolfgarTheQuiet
Member since 2010 • 483 Posts

People are to damn sensitive these days. especially when its online with total strangers. I find it entertaining when someone harasses me online with typed and sometimes misspelled words haha.

Its just form of expression calling someone something and if i called you an idiot the only way you can get offended is if you are one, if you are not you will just laugh. people have no balls these days, just whinge about shit.

Online harassment, give me a break, there are people getting physically abused all over the place and face to face, online harassment WTF is society coming to.

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Halo05

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#44 Halo05
Member since 2004 • 52 Posts

Hey GS, first, you fired a dude for not reviewing an awful game well enough. So pipe down about right and wrong ffs.

Regarding inclusion/accessibility in games, I've always felt that this whole topic is ridiculously overblown and made much more complicated than it should be.

Games exist to make money for a variety of people. Developers, publishers, shareholders in a publicly traded company, etc. The only obligation that (for example) EA has is to make money by creating the game that will be most popular to the greatest number of people. Bottom line, end of story, super-simple. If said game will sell 10k more copies because the female protagonist has larger than average breasts and a traditionally attractive face, EA would be pants-on-head stupid to not make the female protagonist attractive to the greatest possible population of customers.

When the day comes where people aren't looking for (in this example) some degree of straight, male sex-appeal in their games, said games will no longer sell as well and EA/Sony/MS/whomever, will make games with a different appeal to a different demographic.

That awful Kim Kardashian phone game is a blight on the planet (to me at least) so guess what? I don't play it, I don't buy her new outfits in it, I don't pay attention to it. I'm not the audience and so yes, I ignore it.

Now, if you're a game developer and you have an artistic vision that is outside the scope of the straight, male, game-playing majority, you need to expect your title to sell fewer copies because myself and millions of other people who built this industry for the last... 40 years or so, have no interest in (for example) experiencing the struggles of teenage-dom through the lens of a transgendered girl. So make your artsy game, manage your expectations, and realize that in a capitalist society, I should not be compelled to purchase something that I have zero interest in.

Furthermore, companies that function within said capitalist society should not be shamed for attempting to turn a profit by appealing to their biggest demographic: straight, male, gamers.

So here's the question, who subsidizes AAA titles that cost millions of dollars to make when they start including elements that large portions of the public find distasteful or offensive? You can cry and wring your hands all about how intolerant people are, but it all comes down to money and when Christian parents Bobby and Jane find out that there's a gay wizard in Dragon Age 3, they aren't going to be too keen on their kids playing it.

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hxce

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#45  Edited By hxce
Member since 2006 • 2098 Posts

@The_Last_Ride: Hehe yeah, it's heated all right. System Wars has always been like that. IMO that boards just provokes. Just delete that section already.

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WolfgarTheQuiet

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#46  Edited By WolfgarTheQuiet
Member since 2010 • 483 Posts

@rdbgs: So censorship without freedom of total self expression

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thehig1

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#47 thehig1
Member since 2014 • 7471 Posts

@WolfgarTheQuiet: your right I don't get why people get so upset over so called online harassment.

its such a first world problem.

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Geogyf

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#48  Edited By Geogyf
Member since 2012 • 205 Posts

Another Click-bait post i see.

Gamespot has produced stupid shows like Feedbackula who only fuel the trolling.

A great problem that i have seen with Gamespot are some reviews that have made no sense at all

Gamespot places too much emphasis on ease to play, presentation and small length games

and disregards gameplay, games where the pacing is not good and lengthy games.

Many reviews reflect that.

Also dont put reviewers who dont like action, fast paced games to review slow paced, strategic games or the opposite.

A person who likes "Unicorns & Rainbows 4" or "Civilization 8" wont review with the same diligence "Call of Duty 9" or "Doom 5". They are just different games anyway you put it.

example given: C. Petit reviewing "Gone Home", then reviewing "Batman:Arkham Origins", then "Resident Evil 6".

All extremely different games

Metacritic's average scores or each site's scores individually on Metacritic, are vastly different than Gamespot's scores.

When a game gets many 8/10 or 6/10 reviews and you give it 4/10 you lose a lot of your credibility. It implies that someone wasnt objective about the game.

Probably because someone likes puzzle games or whatnot.

Gamespot should have someone specialized in the specific genre to review games, ex shooting genre, he should review "Call of Duty 9".

Also Gamespot should be more transparent and abandon the click-bait strategy. This can only get you so far.

Thats my take anyway, I enjoy Gamespot so i decided to add my 2 cents here.

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Fenriswolf

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#49 Fenriswolf
Member since 2004 • 207 Posts
@Halo05 said:

Now, if you're a game developer and you have an artistic vision that is outside the scope of the straight, male, game-playing majority, you need to expect your title to sell fewer copies because myself and millions of other people who built this industry for the last... 40 years or so, have no interest in (for example) experiencing the struggles of teenage-dom through the lens of a transgendered girl. So make your artsy game, manage your expectations, and realize that in a capitalist society, I should not be compelled to purchase something that I have zero interest in.

Furthermore, companies that function within said capitalist society should not be shamed for attempting to turn a profit by appealing to their biggest demographic: straight, male, gamers.

So here's the question, who subsidizes AAA titles that cost millions of dollars to make when they start including elements that large portions of the public find distasteful or offensive? You can cry and wring your hands all about how intolerant people are, but it all comes down to money and when Christian parents Bobby and Jane find out that there's a gay wizard in Dragon Age 3, they aren't going to be too keen on their kids playing it.

You're right, which is why people rather buy braindead rehashes like COD and BF every year where you unquestioningly mow down hundreds of brown people, just because. To contrary the acknowledgement of the fact that females, non-Whites, and gays exist within the gaming community with the "endangerment" of your own identity as a straight White male is laughable. Just like the movie industry where artsy movies like Boyhood can coexist with your standard action fare like Captain America, the CODs and BFs in the gaming industry can coexist with your Gone Homes and Depression Quests, because none of your indie fare are trying to appeal to you or replace your standard consumerist dross, and their authors aren't blind to the fact. You're free to purchase and play whatever "safe" game you feel like, and I tend to look out for games which at least attempt to breakout from the mainstream narratives.

And I won't fault companies trying to make a profit in a capitalist society, but that doesn't mean that should be given free passes either. Stereotypes of women and non-Whites often exists, not because that their creators are deliberate racists or misogynists, but because poor storytelling techniques often renders people into simple, cardboard cutouts, and it does say something when the storyline of your most acclaimed games are still relegated to ripping off popular summer movie themes. If there are still people in the 21th century who can't handle the fact that gay people exists and can be depicted on popular media, that's their problem, just as people are allowed to purchase games simply because it contains gay people.

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Pelezinho777

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#50 Pelezinho777
Member since 2008 • 1520 Posts

We love u Gamespot, never stop your great job!!!