I hate grinding....so much.

I hate when turn based RPGs force you into fighting the same monsters ten billion times because you have to boost your stats. I call that a cheap trick.

They're like:

Programmer A: "Hey, our RPG is a mere 20 hours long, what do we do?"

Programmer B: "No problem, let's put a few more battles and less experience points in and here you go: 90+ hours of gameplay!"

Programmer A: "90+? Cool! Write it on the back of the box!"

Grinding is like a filler in MMORPGs to make it more time-consuming to level up. And harder too, I guess, since it's hard to force yourself to keep playing when you're bored out of your ****ing mind. I'd rather play an MMO where you can reach the cap in 60 hours but have a great (grindless) time doing it rather than spend 200 hours with a little bit of enjoyment here and there.

MMORPGs all have this problem. The quest system they all use is stupid too, on a related note, and these two things are what makes leveling so very very boring in MMOGs. Having 20 quests at once is annoying because you have to read through them all and then memorize the locations so you don't have to go to a place you've already been to. Then when you're done with whatever location you were in you have to read the quests again to find the nearest ones unless you're some sort of memory wizard... It's all very stupid and could be so easily made far better and at the same time more realistic by setting it up as a Notebook by the player's character with the location, objective and quest giver's location quickly summarized and sorted by objective locations.

Does anyone think it's fun to get ambiguous quest descriptions and have to spend time searching for something you don't know what looks like, accompanied by a nagging doubt that maybe this isn't the right place? That's not my definition of fun, that's my definition of ****ing unnecessarily tedious bulls*** entirely to blame on incompetent game designers and writers.

GTA4! Whilst its nto technically grinding I feel like its been one hell of a grind to get through!.. OK the combat system has been improved over previous games but considering you spend most your time using Taxi's (if you didnt use Taxi's the driving to missions could definalty be considered grinding) but seeign as you spend most of your time using taxi's combat is the core of the game and the AI during combat is awful! undertaking the missions to uncover more of the story has been a real GRIND!

Grinding in my opinion is when you NEED to do the same thing, for the same result, more than twice. I HATE grinding. Now, if you can do something slightly different or recieve random rewards pretty consistantly, in general, that is what I consider fun. The original Fallouts were like that, roam the wastland and have random encounters (they were decently random for their time).

Another issue I think that affects grinding is how the player feels about being unique. For the most part, any MMO I've played, the result of grinding is to be like the 1000's of players before you in your class. Some people like that, and go for that, I hate it... I want a game that makes my lvl 60 so and so to be vastly different from another guy's lvl 60 same class character because of the way I lvled up. I think that might help some people with their grind hate.

Grinding sucks. I know that sentiment isn't echoed by everyone, of course - there are people who love grinding in their JRPGs, who will happily boost their characters to the maximum level for no reason other than 'they can.' So I'm happy to give a polite nod to any game that makes an effort to reduce grinding or even discourage it - like Chrono Cross, which stopped giving you stat boosts after a handful of fights, and making bosses the only route for level-up. I got a stange sense of satisfaction from that, knowing that grind whores would be able to continue their perpetual run-in-a-circle-and-random-battle-to-level-99 (or some variant of it) but it wouldn't provide them with the usual effect.

The whole concept of artificially increasing enemy levels and requiring you to earn experience to remain competitive is archaic anyway. I'd much rather RPGs become skill based than level based, as they have been for ages. It's just a relic of the same era that brought us such gems as save points and random battles. Hey developers - we don't have the same hardware restrictions we did eons ago.

Grinding is like a filler in MMORPGs to make it more time-consuming to level up. And harder too, I guess, since it's hard to force yourself to keep playing when you're bored out of your ****ing mind. I'd rather play an MMO where you can reach the cap in 60 hours but have a great (grindless) time doing it rather than spend 200 hours with a little bit of enjoyment here and there.

MMORPGs all have this problem. The quest system they all use is stupid too, on a related note, and these two things are what makes leveling so very very boring in MMOGs. Having 20 quests at once is annoying because you have to read through them all and then memorize the locations so you don't have to go to a place you've already been to. Then when you're done with whatever location you were in you have to read the quests again to find the nearest ones unless you're some sort of memory wizard... It's all very stupid and could be so easily made far better and at the same time more realistic by setting it up as a Notebook by the player's character with the location, objective and quest giver's location quickly summarized and sorted by objective locations.

Does anyone think it's fun to get ambiguous quest descriptions and have to spend time searching for something you don't know what looks like, accompanied by a nagging doubt that maybe this isn't the right place? That's not my definition of fun, that's my definition of ****ing unnecessarily tedious bulls*** entirely to blame on incompetent game designers and writers.

WhiteWorld

Guild Wars popped to mind after your first paragraph and only got stronger after that. I realize it's not a standard MMORPG, but you hit the level cap of 20 long before the end of the game, and even the fancy weapons and armor aren't any different (in terms of stats) than regular high-level items. So basically you've got the bulk of your character maxxed out early on and the challenge from that point comes from careful allocation of your skills, your heroes and their skills, and the strategy for each mission or area. The difficulty does not come because you're under-leveled or because your items aren't good enough.

Quests are also split up by area in a collapsable menu, and clicking on them brings up an arrow and a big yellow star on the map directing you to the objective. Initially it seems like cheating, but it soon becomes a godsend.

You can still grind in the game, but it's not required for anything of great importance. Unlike WoW, where excessive grinding rewards you with vastly superior weapons and armor than casual players. In Guild Wars, you just look fancier - you don't get an advantage (ignoring skill with the game from practice).

Grinding sucks. I know that sentiment isn't echoed by everyone, of course - there are people who love grinding in their JRPGs, who will happily boost their characters to the maximum level for no reason other than 'they can.' So I'm happy to give a polite nod to any game that makes an effort to reduce grinding or even discourage it - like Chrono Cross, which stopped giving you stat boosts after a handful of fights, and making bosses the only route for level-up. I got a stange sense of satisfaction from that, knowing that grind whores would be able to continue their perpetual run-in-a-circle-and-random-battle-to-level-99 (or some variant of it) but it wouldn't provide them with the usual effect.

The whole concept of artificially increasing enemy levels and requiring you to earn experience to remain competitive is archaic anyway. I'd much rather RPGs become skill based than level based, as they have been for ages. It's just a relic of the same era that brought us such gems as save points and random battles. Hey developers - we don't have the same hardware restrictions we did eons ago.

DJ_Lae

I don't like it when I'm forced to grind to progress. I do like it when I have a battle system that I find compelling and I want to max my characters out because I enjoy it. Sometimes grinding in an enjoyable system can be very soothing, and actually pretty rewarding. I certainly hope that more games don't follow the route where a good satisfying grind becomes impossible, just like I hope less games will make a long tedious grind mandatory.

I also would hate to see RPGs become exclusively skill based. I don't play games to be punished, if I wanted to be punished for my slow reaction times and poor hand eye coordination I'd play Ninja Gaiden... or basketball. There's already plenty of games out there that are geared toward people with impossibly quick reflexes, lets have at least a few RPGs that stay in the realm of normal people's abilities! The reason I like RPGs now is because they're an experience more than a competition.

[QUOTE="DJ_Lae"]

Grinding sucks. I know that sentiment isn't echoed by everyone, of course - there are people who love grinding in their JRPGs, who will happily boost their characters to the maximum level for no reason other than 'they can.' So I'm happy to give a polite nod to any game that makes an effort to reduce grinding or even discourage it - like Chrono Cross, which stopped giving you stat boosts after a handful of fights, and making bosses the only route for level-up. I got a stange sense of satisfaction from that, knowing that grind whores would be able to continue their perpetual run-in-a-circle-and-random-battle-to-level-99 (or some variant of it) but it wouldn't provide them with the usual effect.

The whole concept of artificially increasing enemy levels and requiring you to earn experience to remain competitive is archaic anyway. I'd much rather RPGs become skill based than level based, as they have been for ages. It's just a relic of the same era that brought us such gems as save points and random battles. Hey developers - we don't have the same hardware restrictions we did eons ago.

SophinaK

I don't like it when I'm forced to grind to progress. I do like it when I have a battle system that I find compelling and I want to max my characters out because I enjoy it. Sometimes grinding in an enjoyable system can be very soothing, and actually pretty rewarding. I certainly hope that more games don't follow the route where a good satisfying grind becomes impossible, just like I hope less games will make a long tedious grind mandatory.

I also would hate to see RPGs become exclusively skill based. I don't play games to be punished, if I wanted to be punished for my slow reaction times and poor hand eye coordination I'd play Ninja Gaiden... or basketball. There's already plenty of games out there that are geared toward people with impossibly quick reflexes, lets have at least a few RPGs that stay in the realm of normal people's abilities! The reason I like RPGs now is because they're an experience more than a competition.

I think what he means by "skill-based" is where you develop your abilities individually rather than have them increase with each level. At least, that's what I think he means.

I think what he means by "skill-based" is where you develop your abilities individually rather than have them increase with each level. At least, that's what I think he means.

Oilers99

Oh thank goodness! :P Now that I wouldn't mind at all!

I think what he means by "skill-based" is where you develop your abilities individually rather than have them increase with each level. At least, that's what I think he means.Oilers99

More or less. I don't have a problem with earning character abilities - maybe you get points to spend on them, or learn them from items, or just find them scattered around, or buy them, or whatever.

Since the leveling in an RPG is kind of arbitrary anyway I'd rather they concentrate on making battles more strategic - maybe you need to equip certain items in an area in order to take advantage of an enemy's weakness. FFX kind of did this (almost excessively) by making certain enemies weak to a particular character's attack. Unfortunately, it also made some characters redundant.

I like the idea because it means that rethinking your battle plan is the solution for a boss that killed you, not going to the previous area and running in circles until you have more hitpoints. Lots of RPGs do have some option for strategy, of course, but it's often overshadowed by the mindless ability to grind a few levels and overcome all the obstacles through sheer force.

Then again, maybe that's a valid gameplay option. It just means that any effort the developers put into the more subtle parts of the game is wasted.

Grinding isn't a big deal to me in WoW. I bot. Like everyone else.

Grinding isn't a big deal to me in WoW. I bot. Like everyone else.

Soothsayerr

Really? WoW has become more broken than I had thought, then.

i don't mind it reealy, heres a suggestion i found, make the game have a small window then put a video or something on the background.

i can do it a little bit at a time, i like doing it as a ice mage, that is fun; circling around then frost nova, blizard, cyclone, redo.

This is why I like RPGs like Baldur's gate, it's more about quests, storyline and diffrent skills other than killing.