How long before Xbox One is readily available on shelves?

...um... Kay? What are you trying to say?

Initially, I was thinking about a month or so. However, I suspect MSFT is having a hard time with production, so there will be a limited supply. Probably won't be readily available until January due to supply issues.

Actually, the Wii U was readily available on and directly after launch; there was no problem finding the system, even during the busy holiday shopping season.

I also don't recall the PS3 being too difficult to find at launch or shortly thereafter; the price, especially on the $600 SKU, seemed to leave many consumers cold.

I have no idea how the XBONE will fare but if the PS4 outsells it by a significant margin and there is a hefty inventory of Sony consoles readily available throughout the holiday season I think the XBONE might end up having a slow start and be amply available just about everywhere.

Personally, I think that hundred dollar differential is going to hurt them at retail, which in turn will make them easier to find.

Actually, the Wii U was readily available on and directly after launch; there was no problem finding the system, even during the busy holiday shopping season.

I also don't recall the PS3 being too difficult to find at launch or shortly thereafter; the price, especially on the $600 SKU, seemed to leave many consumers cold.

I have no idea how the XBONE will fare but if the PS4 outsells it by a significant margin and there is a hefty inventory of Sony consoles readily available throughout the holiday season I think the XBONE might end up having a slow start and be amply available just about everywhere.

Personally, I think that hundred dollar differential is going to hurt them at retail, which in turn will make them easier to find.

 

 

Grammaton-Cleric

PS3 was sold out at launch and was selling for upto $25k on ebay. Some of my friends managed to get $2k for their PS3s. 

Once the initial rush died down, it was pretty easy to get one in December and January.

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Actually, the Wii U was readily available on and directly after launch; there was no problem finding the system, even during the busy holiday shopping season.

I also don't recall the PS3 being too difficult to find at launch or shortly thereafter; the price, especially on the $600 SKU, seemed to leave many consumers cold.

I have no idea how the XBONE will fare but if the PS4 outsells it by a significant margin and there is a hefty inventory of Sony consoles readily available throughout the holiday season I think the XBONE might end up having a slow start and be amply available just about everywhere.

Personally, I think that hundred dollar differential is going to hurt them at retail, which in turn will make them easier to find.

 

 

S0lidSnake

PS3 was sold out at launch and was selling for upto $25k on ebay. Some of my friends managed to get $2k for their PS3s. 

Once the initial rush died down, it was pretty easy to get one in December and January.

2K! Wow! I started to see the PS3 readily available after the holidays...Regarding the Xbox One, most retailers are sold out and no longer taking pre-orders...my guess is that with some luck you might be able to find one laying around during the holidays...

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Actually, the Wii U was readily available on and directly after launch; there was no problem finding the system, even during the busy holiday shopping season.

I also don't recall the PS3 being too difficult to find at launch or shortly thereafter; the price, especially on the $600 SKU, seemed to leave many consumers cold.

I have no idea how the XBONE will fare but if the PS4 outsells it by a significant margin and there is a hefty inventory of Sony consoles readily available throughout the holiday season I think the XBONE might end up having a slow start and be amply available just about everywhere.

Personally, I think that hundred dollar differential is going to hurt them at retail, which in turn will make them easier to find.

 

 

S0lidSnake

PS3 was sold out at launch and was selling for upto $25k on ebay. Some of my friends managed to get $2k for their PS3s. 

Once the initial rush died down, it was pretty easy to get one in December and January.

It was only a few weeks, if that. A lot of system hawkers got owned by the PS3's less than stellar demand at launch. I should know -- I was one of them. It is, in fact, how I ended up with one. I put it up on Ebay the day it launched and got no offers. I can't remember what I listed it at, but it wasn't anything too terribly outrageous -- maybe a few hundred more than I paid for it. 

I think the high price is going to hurt the Xbone in America, but especially in Europe. If you look at the three big markets: Asia, Europe, North America, the math doesn't work for Microsoft if it doesn't become dominant in North America right out of the gate. It is dead in Asia, and Europe is going to be very tough -- much tougher than it was with the PS3. If they cede North America, even with a strong second place finish, they are done. 

In a wideranging interview with Game Informer MS's Phil Spencer made an interesting statement which indicates that on day 1 MS wants there to be unreserved Xbones available. MS claims that is part of their master plan...

I doubt it. I don't think shortages are a good thing (indeed I view them as a negative because some consumers will spend that money on alternate products) but I don't see why a company would care who they sell to. 'We don't want the people chomping at the bit to get Xbones, we are looking for more casual buyers'.

http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2013/09/05/microsofts-phil-spencer-on-xbox-one-pre-orders-demystifying-the-cloud-and-wooing-indies.aspx

"You want people to be able to walk in the store and buy one on day one, so you're trying to manage the inventory that isn't pre-sold," Spencer says. "It's not a yield problem, it's us trying to manage the hardware side. I want parents who don't think about pre-ordering electronics to be able to walk in and have a chance to find a box. There might be a line, but I don't want it to be that if you didn't pre-order in September, you can't get one. That doesn't feel like a great consumer experience."

While he wouldn't give us pre-order numbers, Spencer assures us that things are looking good. "Availability should feel a lot better than it did for 360," he says. "If people want to pick up more controllers and games, they'll be there. We feel really good about our pre-order number, and we're managing it through allocation rather than demand. [Pre-order] isn't the business. It's way more important to me what happens when people walk in the store. The business is selling consoles."

It won't be until after the holidays.

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Actually, the Wii U was readily available on and directly after launch; there was no problem finding the system, even during the busy holiday shopping season.

I also don't recall the PS3 being too difficult to find at launch or shortly thereafter; the price, especially on the $600 SKU, seemed to leave many consumers cold.

I have no idea how the XBONE will fare but if the PS4 outsells it by a significant margin and there is a hefty inventory of Sony consoles readily available throughout the holiday season I think the XBONE might end up having a slow start and be amply available just about everywhere.

Personally, I think that hundred dollar differential is going to hurt them at retail, which in turn will make them easier to find.

 

 

Shame-usBlackley

PS3 was sold out at launch and was selling for upto $25k on ebay. Some of my friends managed to get $2k for their PS3s. 

Once the initial rush died down, it was pretty easy to get one in December and January.

It was only a few weeks, if that. A lot of system hawkers got owned by the PS3's less than stellar demand at launch. I should know -- I was one of them. It is, in fact, how I ended up with one. I put it up on Ebay the day it launched and got no offers. I can't remember what I listed it at, but it wasn't anything too terribly outrageous -- maybe a few hundred more than I paid for it. 

I think the high price is going to hurt the Xbone in America, but especially in Europe. If you look at the three big markets: Asia, Europe, North America, the math doesn't work for Microsoft if it doesn't become dominant in North America right out of the gate. It is dead in Asia, and Europe is going to be very tough -- much tougher than it was with the PS3. If they cede North America, even with a strong second place finish, they are done. 

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC. 

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point. 

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

PS3 was sold out at launch and was selling for upto $25k on ebay. Some of my friends managed to get $2k for their PS3s.

Once the initial rush died down, it was pretty easy to get one in December and January.

Areez

It was only a few weeks, if that. A lot of system hawkers got owned by the PS3's less than stellar demand at launch. I should know -- I was one of them. It is, in fact, how I ended up with one. I put it up on Ebay the day it launched and got no offers. I can't remember what I listed it at, but it wasn't anything too terribly outrageous -- maybe a few hundred more than I paid for it.

I think the high price is going to hurt the Xbone in America, but especially in Europe. If you look at the three big markets: Asia, Europe, North America, the math doesn't work for Microsoft if it doesn't become dominant in North America right out of the gate. It is dead in Asia, and Europe is going to be very tough -- much tougher than it was with the PS3. If they cede North America, even with a strong second place finish, they are done.

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC.

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point.

There are historical precedents that demonstrate a long and sustained history of price playing a major role in consumer purchasing decisions. The fact that both consoles essentially deliver the same level of graphical fidelity (with the PS4 actually being a bit stronger in that regard) yet having a hundred dollar price differential will almost certainly affect sales given the strength of both brands and their relevance to the casual and core demographics.

How pronounced the affect of the price disparity is still yet to be determined but with the PS4 currently tracking much better in terms of preorders I'm predicting that the PS4 is going to win this first holiday showdown and if their margin of victory is statistically significant I expect MS to counter with some manner of price reduction shortly thereafter.

I'm typically an early adopter and yet I most certainly find the price of the XBONE a bit off-putting given that both systems are currently offering a very similar launch experience.

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

PS3 was sold out at launch and was selling for upto $25k on ebay. Some of my friends managed to get $2k for their PS3s.

Once the initial rush died down, it was pretty easy to get one in December and January.

Areez

It was only a few weeks, if that. A lot of system hawkers got owned by the PS3's less than stellar demand at launch. I should know -- I was one of them. It is, in fact, how I ended up with one. I put it up on Ebay the day it launched and got no offers. I can't remember what I listed it at, but it wasn't anything too terribly outrageous -- maybe a few hundred more than I paid for it.

I think the high price is going to hurt the Xbone in America, but especially in Europe. If you look at the three big markets: Asia, Europe, North America, the math doesn't work for Microsoft if it doesn't become dominant in North America right out of the gate. It is dead in Asia, and Europe is going to be very tough -- much tougher than it was with the PS3. If they cede North America, even with a strong second place finish, they are done.

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC.

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point.

There were more than a few analysts who believed the PS3 was going to dominate, and (also erroneously) assumed that because the PS2 had done so well, that success would carry over to the next generation, and well, it did not. And of course it didn't -- why would it?

Price is a HUGE factor and any analyst that believes otherwise is going up against three decades of precedent saying otherwise.

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

It was only a few weeks, if that. A lot of system hawkers got owned by the PS3's less than stellar demand at launch. I should know -- I was one of them. It is, in fact, how I ended up with one. I put it up on Ebay the day it launched and got no offers. I can't remember what I listed it at, but it wasn't anything too terribly outrageous -- maybe a few hundred more than I paid for it.

I think the high price is going to hurt the Xbone in America, but especially in Europe. If you look at the three big markets: Asia, Europe, North America, the math doesn't work for Microsoft if it doesn't become dominant in North America right out of the gate. It is dead in Asia, and Europe is going to be very tough -- much tougher than it was with the PS3. If they cede North America, even with a strong second place finish, they are done.

Grammaton-Cleric

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC.

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point.

There are historical precedents that demonstrate a long and sustained history of price playing a major role in consumer purchasing decisions. The fact that both consoles essentially deliver the same level of graphical fidelity (with the PS4 actually being a bit stronger in that regard) yet having a hundred dollar price differential will almost certainly affect sales given the strength of both brands and their relevance to the casual and core demographics.

How pronounced the affect of the price disparity is still yet to be determined but with the PS4 currently tracking much better in terms of preorders I'm predicting that the PS4 is going to win this first holiday showdown and if their margin of victory is statistically significant I expect MS to counter with some manner of price reduction shortly thereafter.

I'm typically an early adopter and yet I most certainly find the price of the XBONE a bit off-putting given that both systems are currently offering a very similar launch experience.

I agree, if MS is significantly outsold during the holiday, we will more than likely see a reduction in price. The question than becomes, when? When would MS implement a reduction in price? I would imagine that they would have to be cautious in their approach. Anything rushed would probably hurt consumer confidence for the Xbox One. Guess we shall wait and see....

I'm confident that I could find an Xbox One right after the holidays, if I wanted to.

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

It was only a few weeks, if that. A lot of system hawkers got owned by the PS3's less than stellar demand at launch. I should know -- I was one of them. It is, in fact, how I ended up with one. I put it up on Ebay the day it launched and got no offers. I can't remember what I listed it at, but it wasn't anything too terribly outrageous -- maybe a few hundred more than I paid for it.

I think the high price is going to hurt the Xbone in America, but especially in Europe. If you look at the three big markets: Asia, Europe, North America, the math doesn't work for Microsoft if it doesn't become dominant in North America right out of the gate. It is dead in Asia, and Europe is going to be very tough -- much tougher than it was with the PS3. If they cede North America, even with a strong second place finish, they are done.

Shame-usBlackley

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC.

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point.

There were more than a few analysts who believed the PS3 was going to dominate, and (also erroneously) assumed that because the PS2 had done so well, that success would carry over to the next generation, and well, it did not. And of course it didn't -- why would it?

Price is a HUGE factor and any analyst that believes otherwise is going up against three decades of precedent saying otherwise.

Price definitely plays a huge factor, but I think the comparisons aren't exactly honest, due to most of us being uninterested in the Kinect.

It's easy to say the Xbox One is more expensive while being slightly inferior hardware, but of course, there's the Kinect, and while it doesn't appeal to the "hardcore" crowd, I think there's definitely a market for it.

From Wikipedia: "24 million units of the Kinect sensor had been shipped by February 2013. Having sold 8 million units in its first 60 days on the market, Kinect has claimed the Guinness World Record of being the "fastest selling consumer electronics device". According to Wedbush analyst Michael Pachter, Kinect bundles accounted for about half of all Xbox 360 console sales in December 2010 and for more than two-thirds in February 2011. More than 750,000 Kinect units were sold during the week of Black Friday 2011.

Another part of its appeal comes in motion party games, like the Just Dance franchise. Most of us laugh at that game, but fail to realize it's in the top 5 (most selling games) every single year. Obviously, Just Dance 2014 has more of an appeal with the Kinect, and thus, the Xbox One, to the crowd that enjoys those kinds of games.

Don't get me wrong, the PS4 will definitely outsell the X1 at launch...I just don't like how people compare the consoles and omit the Kinect 2.0. There is value in it, whether or not it appeals to you or I is irrelevant. 

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

It was only a few weeks, if that. A lot of system hawkers got owned by the PS3's less than stellar demand at launch. I should know -- I was one of them. It is, in fact, how I ended up with one. I put it up on Ebay the day it launched and got no offers. I can't remember what I listed it at, but it wasn't anything too terribly outrageous -- maybe a few hundred more than I paid for it.

I think the high price is going to hurt the Xbone in America, but especially in Europe. If you look at the three big markets: Asia, Europe, North America, the math doesn't work for Microsoft if it doesn't become dominant in North America right out of the gate. It is dead in Asia, and Europe is going to be very tough -- much tougher than it was with the PS3. If they cede North America, even with a strong second place finish, they are done.

Shame-usBlackley

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC.

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point.

There were more than a few analysts who believed the PS3 was going to dominate, and (also erroneously) assumed that because the PS2 had done so well, that success would carry over to the next generation, and well, it did not. And of course it didn't -- why would it?

Price is a HUGE factor and any analyst that believes otherwise is going up against three decades of precedent saying otherwise.

True, price is a huge factor. However, we are also comparing two consoles, where one has an added device in the form of Kinect 2.0. Objectively speaking, the reason why we have a $100 price difference is because of the Kinect 2.0. Personally, I would have been a bit more sensitive to the $100 price difference, had the Xbox One not been bundled with the Kinect 2.0. I believe many of us leave the kinect out of the discussion of price, because of our own personal views of the Kinect 1 as a failure.  

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="Areez"]

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC.

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point.

experience_fade

There were more than a few analysts who believed the PS3 was going to dominate, and (also erroneously) assumed that because the PS2 had done so well, that success would carry over to the next generation, and well, it did not. And of course it didn't -- why would it?

Price is a HUGE factor and any analyst that believes otherwise is going up against three decades of precedent saying otherwise.

Price definitely plays a huge factor, but I think the comparisons aren't exactly honest, due to most of us being uninterested in the Kinect.

It's easy to say the Xbox One is more expensive while being slightly inferior hardware, but of course, there's the Kinect, and while it doesn't appeal to the "hardcore" crowd, I think there's definitely a market for it.

From Wikipedia: "24 million units of the Kinect sensor had been shipped by February 2013. Having sold 8 million units in its first 60 days on the market, Kinect has claimed the Guinness World Record of being the "fastest selling consumer electronics device". According to Wedbush analyst Michael Pachter, Kinect bundles accounted for about half of all Xbox 360 console sales in December 2010 and for more than two-thirds in February 2011. More than 750,000 Kinect units were sold during the week of Black Friday 2011.

Another part of its appeal comes in motion party games, like the Just Dance franchise. Most of us laugh at that game, but fail to realize it's in the top 5 (most selling games) every single year. Obviously, Just Dance 2014 has more of an appeal with the Kinect, and thus, the Xbox One, to the crowd that enjoys those kinds of games.

Don't get me wrong, the PS4 will definitely outsell the X1 at launch...I just don't like how people compare the consoles and omit the Kinect 2.0. There is value in it, whether or not it appeals to you or I is irrelevant. 

Some great points here. For whatever reason core gamers believe if the device is of no use to them, than it has little relevancy in the gaming world. Perhaps we often forget that a device like this, has some broader appeal to a larger audience. By all accounts, the Kinect was a success,  and therefore a market does indeed exist for a device like the Kinect. 

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="Areez"]

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC.

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point.

Areez

There were more than a few analysts who believed the PS3 was going to dominate, and (also erroneously) assumed that because the PS2 had done so well, that success would carry over to the next generation, and well, it did not. And of course it didn't -- why would it?

Price is a HUGE factor and any analyst that believes otherwise is going up against three decades of precedent saying otherwise.

True, price is a huge factor. However, we are also comparing two consoles, where one has an added device in the form of Kinect 2.0. Objectively speaking, the reason why we have a $100 price difference is because of the Kinect 2.0. Personally, I would have been a bit more sensitive to the $100 price difference, had the Xbox One not been bundled with the Kinect 2.0. I believe many of us leave the kinect out of the discussion of price, because of our own personal views of the Kinect 1 as a failure.

MS pushed the Kinect and omitted any mention of games from its first Xbone commercial, so MS certainly has faith in it,

However, its worth keeping in mind that thus far casuals haven't demonstrated that they care about precision. The Wiimote lacked precision, but casuals loved it. When Nintendo offered a more precise Wiimote Plus (and Sony later offered the PS Move) casuals were not impressed. Its also worth noting that casuals abandoned the Wiimote for an even simpler, less precise controller (the original Kinect).

For casual gamers the fun is in the actions the game asks them to perform not the game itself (which is why ads for games one plays with motion controllers normally focus on players flailing around rather than game footage) so they don't particularly care if every single move isn't picked up. Are such people going to trade up for the more accurate Kinect 2 or stick with what they have?

Some great points here. For whatever reason core gamers believe if the device is of no use to them, than it has little relevancy in the gaming world. Perhaps we often forget that a device like this, has some broader appeal to a larger audience. By all accounts, the Kinect was a success, and therefore a market does indeed exist for a device like the Kinect.

Areez

That's a fair point but you must also factor in the redundancy of Kinect 2.0 because despite the success of the first, casual gamers don't tend to immediately migrate to the newest hardware, especially when the differences at this stage aren't overtly pronounced.

Also bear in mind that the higher price tag works in sharp contrast to the typical casual mindset, which is that of a consumer who generally tends to looks at the issue of value superficially.

Let me put it this way: MS is taking a serious gamble in the hopes that people, both core and casual, see the added value of the Kinect and are willing to pay for it. Personally I think it is a mistake but then again I also didn't think people would flock to the Wii so there is always a chance MS will tap into something similar, even at a heftier price.

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

There were more than a few analysts who believed the PS3 was going to dominate, and (also erroneously) assumed that because the PS2 had done so well, that success would carry over to the next generation, and well, it did not. And of course it didn't -- why would it?

Price is a HUGE factor and any analyst that believes otherwise is going up against three decades of precedent saying otherwise.

CarnageHeart

True, price is a huge factor. However, we are also comparing two consoles, where one has an added device in the form of Kinect 2.0. Objectively speaking, the reason why we have a $100 price difference is because of the Kinect 2.0. Personally, I would have been a bit more sensitive to the $100 price difference, had the Xbox One not been bundled with the Kinect 2.0. I believe many of us leave the kinect out of the discussion of price, because of our own personal views of the Kinect 1 as a failure.

MS pushed the Kinect and omitted any mention of games from its first Xbone commercial, so MS certainly has faith in it,

However, its worth keeping in mind that thus far casuals haven't demonstrated that they care about precision. The Wiimote lacked precision, but casuals loved it. When Nintendo offered a more precise Wiimote Plus (and Sony later offered the PS Move) casuals were not impressed. Its also worth noting that casuals abandoned the Wiimote for an even simpler, less precise controller (the original Kinect).

For casual gamers the fun is in the actions the game asks them to perform not the game itself (which is why ads for games one plays with motion controllers normally focus on players flailing around rather than game footage) so they don't particularly care if every single move isn't picked up. Are such people going to trade up for the more accurate Kinect 2 or stick with what they have?

This commercial was definitely timed to coincide with the start of the NFL. The commercial highlights some of the features in the NFL app on XBL. NFL redzone, and live fantasy updates can be seen. 

Casual gamers seem to prefer accessibility,  and some level of ease with gaming. The plug and play mentality would probably apply here.  That being said will they upgrade immediately to the Kinect 2? Who knows....All we can do is speculate at this point.

I have no doubt in my mind that the X1 will be annihilated by the PS4 this holiday in NA. Beyond price, the only people who buy at launch are hardcore gamers and they hate the X1 right now. Despite this, MS will not cut price for at least a year. MS is an extremely stubborn company (as stubborn and unwilling to change as Nintendo) and they saw how cutting price on the Surface so soon after launch damaged the platform and angered consumers and retail. Also, rumor is that at $500, MS is squeezing out a small profit on each box sold (thanks including the spycam) and they cannot afford a $100 cut if rumors of being spun off from MS are true and they can no longer depend on MS's multibiliion dollar war chest anymore.GalvatronType_R

So all core gamers hate the Xbox One? Regarding MS squeezing out a small profit on the Xbox One...If they are doing so, well than they are ahead of the game. All consoles are always sold at a loss for the first 2-3 years. 

The Surface, in my opinion was over priced and not marketed well. The Surface however,  is not the Xbox. MS has had success with the Xbox, especially here in the United States.  

Now MS is stubborn like Nintendo? How so? Last I checked MS had a robust online infrastructure with Xbox Live and enjoys a bit more 3rd party support. MS also reversed many of the unpopular policies that core gamers disliked. Are those the actions of a stubborn company?

It won't be until after the holidays.

jekyll

[QUOTE="GalvatronType_R"]I have no doubt in my mind that the X1 will be annihilated by the PS4 this holiday in NA. Beyond price, the only people who buy at launch are hardcore gamers and they hate the X1 right now. Despite this, MS will not cut price for at least a year. MS is an extremely stubborn company (as stubborn and unwilling to change as Nintendo) and they saw how cutting price on the Surface so soon after launch damaged the platform and angered consumers and retail. Also, rumor is that at $500, MS is squeezing out a small profit on each box sold (thanks including the spycam) and they cannot afford a $100 cut if rumors of being spun off from MS are true and they can no longer depend on MS's multibiliion dollar war chest anymore.Areez

So all core gamers hate the Xbox One? Regarding MS squeezing out a small profit on the Xbox One...If they are doing so, well than they are ahead of the game. All consoles are always sold at a loss for the first 2-3 years. 

The Surface, in my opinion was over priced and not marketed well. The Surface however,  is not the Xbox. MS has had success with the Xbox, especially here in the United States.  

Now MS is stubborn like Nintendo? How so? Last I checked MS had a robust online infrastructure with Xbox Live and enjoys a bit more 3rd party support. MS also reversed many of the unpopular policies that core gamers disliked. Are those the actions of a stubborn company?

There's no way to prove right or wrong until the sales numbers come out for November NPD. However, reports have surfaced that the PS4 was outselling the Bone in preorders by 3 or 4:1. That's a pretty good indication that Galvatron's comment has more truth to it than less, especially considering the PS3 is still being outsold by the 360. 

And he is right about them being stubborn too. The 360 is flat out overpriced, and they've bugled about how awesome they're selling when the 360 is performing horribly for a system at this point in its life. It should be a hundred bucks at this point and new markets should be opening up to it. I can buy a 500 gig PS3 with GTA5 packed in for $260 right now on Amazon. That's essentially a 500 gig PS3 for $200... still overpriced, but a far better value than the 360. Microsoft has no such offers, and their system has been out a year longer. Call it what you want, but stubborn is putting it nicely. 

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="GalvatronType_R"]I have no doubt in my mind that the X1 will be annihilated by the PS4 this holiday in NA. Beyond price, the only people who buy at launch are hardcore gamers and they hate the X1 right now. Despite this, MS will not cut price for at least a year. MS is an extremely stubborn company (as stubborn and unwilling to change as Nintendo) and they saw how cutting price on the Surface so soon after launch damaged the platform and angered consumers and retail. Also, rumor is that at $500, MS is squeezing out a small profit on each box sold (thanks including the spycam) and they cannot afford a $100 cut if rumors of being spun off from MS are true and they can no longer depend on MS's multibiliion dollar war chest anymore.Shame-usBlackley

So all core gamers hate the Xbox One? Regarding MS squeezing out a small profit on the Xbox One...If they are doing so, well than they are ahead of the game. All consoles are always sold at a loss for the first 2-3 years. 

The Surface, in my opinion was over priced and not marketed well. The Surface however,  is not the Xbox. MS has had success with the Xbox, especially here in the United States.  

Now MS is stubborn like Nintendo? How so? Last I checked MS had a robust online infrastructure with Xbox Live and enjoys a bit more 3rd party support. MS also reversed many of the unpopular policies that core gamers disliked. Are those the actions of a stubborn company?

There's no way to prove right or wrong until the sales numbers come out for November NPD. However, reports have surfaced that the PS4 was outselling the Bone in preorders by 3 or 4:1. That's a pretty good indication that Galvatron's comment has more truth to it than less, especially considering the PS3 is still being outsold by the 360. 

And he is right about them being stubborn too. The 360 is flat out overpriced, and they've bugled about how awesome they're selling when the 360 is performing horribly for a system at this point in its life. It should be a hundred bucks at this point and new markets should be opening up to it. I can buy a 500 gig PS3 with GTA5 packed in for $260 right now on Amazon. That's essentially a 500 gig PS3 for $200... still overpriced, but a far better value than the 360. Microsoft has no such offers, and their system has been out a year longer. Call it what you want, but stubborn is putting it nicely. 

Well if the Xbox 360 is still outselling the PS3 in the U.S., what is the incentive for MS to lower the price point,  when the demand is there....You do realize that MS is a business and like most businesses their goal is to generate revenue. Oh and you can also purchase a 360 bundle at $249 on Amazon that comes with Darksiders II, Arkam City, 250 GB HD, and a month free of XBL Gold. Granted you do get a 500GB HD vs a 250 GB HD, but we could argue all night on the practically of having a 500 GB HD vs a 250 GB HD on a game console. . So agree to disagree....

And I believe GalvatronType_R was trying to compare MS stubbornness to that of Nintendos...yes?

And as solid snake has mentioned to me on numerous occasions....Apparently it is proper etiquette to provide links here...As in links where you cite multiple sources claiming the PS4 pre-orders have a 4-1 advantage. By the way, we all know that the PS4 has a higher pre-order number, pre-orders for the PS4 were available months (2) before the XBX1 and then E3...which didnt help MS.

Yes, we will not have a clue until after the holidays. So we shall see...

Well if the Xbox 360 is still outselling the PS3 in the U.S., what is the incentive for MS to lower the price point,  when the demand is there....You do realize that MS is a business and like most businesses their goal is to generate revenue. Oh and you can also purchase a 360 bundle at $249 on Amazon that comes with Darksiders II, Arkam City, 250 GB HD, and a month free of XBL Gold. Granted you do get a 500GB HD vs a 250 GB HD, but we could argue all night on the practically of having a 500 GB HD vs a 250 GB HD on a game console. . So agree to disagree....

And I believe GalvatronType_R was trying to compare MS stubbornness to that of Nintendos...yes?

And as solid snake has mentioned to me on numerous occasions....Apparently it is proper etiquette to provide links here...As in links where you cite multiple sources claiming the PS4 pre-orders have a 4-1 advantage. By the way, we all know that the PS4 has a higher pre-order number, pre-orders for the PS4 were available months (2) before the XBX1 and then E3...which didnt help MS.

Yes, we will not have a clue until after the holidays. So we shall see...

Areez

What is the incentive? How about software makers, for starters? You do realize this year has been a fvcking train wreck for software sales, don't you? And the demand isn't there... the demand is only higher than the non-existent demand for the PS3... You should work for Microsoft, because your mindset is just like theirs -- beating Sony is all they cared about. They don't care about the industry. They don't care about software makers. They cared about beating Sony, plain and simple. So what if their hardware is selling half of what it did last year, and has been for the entire year, right? We beat Sony, right? 

What is the incentive? How about precedent? How about understanding that other companies, ones that are far smarter than Microsoft have been in this business and there is an accepted pattern for price drops? Microsoft is trying to forge its own path, and that's commendable, but there's only one problem: IT ISN'T WORKING. Sales numbers are shit, both in hardware and software, and they've sat there with one hand's thumb up their ass, and the other one clapping themselves on the back. Fvcking clueless doesn't even begin to describe it. God help this business if these foolish bastards ever gain dominant marketshare. They are as dumb as a box of fvcking rocks. They could be selling three hundred thousand consoles a month, and completely revitalizing the flagging software market if they weren't too stupid to see the forest for the trees. 

And please, $250 with 2 ancient games and a smaller drive... not anywhere near the deal a 500 gig drive with the biggest game of the year packed in for $20 more on a system that is a year older and was considered ancient two years ago. There's no agree to disagree about it... two old games versus arguably the biggest one this year (maybe of the generation), smaller drive, older hardware, and the PS3 comes with a free month of PS+. And even setting Sony aside, Microsoft has proven to be incredibly bad stewards of the market as they have put their own interests of keeping the price high and selling like shit instead of getting the price down, opening up new markets, and getting those new markets buying software. Tell me, how would you feel if you were making software about MS' strategy? How would you feel watching them gloat about hardware numbers that are half of what THEIR OWN NUMBERS were a year ago? Sound like a market leader to you, do they?

Microsoft and Nintendo are extremely alike. They both want to force their mindset on the market, and only back off once they get hammered for it. Both are (were in Nintendo's case, they've apparently seen the light) trying to bring more ruinous fortune on the industry with motion controls. Both are stubborn to drop the price on ancient hardware that is soon to be outdated completely by new hardware. Both have idiots running their divisions. They're not only as stubborn, they would make great business partners. 

There's a thread on Neogaf someone forwarded me regarding the preorders. I'll see if I can find it. But seriously, it wasn't the two month headstart that hurt Microsoft, it was their fvcked up messaging, messaging they've been trying to beat away from their head like a big, smelly mask ever since they stunk the house up with it. 

[QUOTE="Areez"]

Well if the Xbox 360 is still outselling the PS3 in the U.S., what is the incentive for MS to lower the price point, when the demand is there....You do realize that MS is a business and like most businesses their goal is to generate revenue. Oh and you can also purchase a 360 bundle at $249 on Amazon that comes with Darksiders II, Arkam City, 250 GB HD, and a month free of XBL Gold. Granted you do get a 500GB HD vs a 250 GB HD, but we could argue all night on the practically of having a 500 GB HD vs a 250 GB HD on a game console. . So agree to disagree....

And I believe GalvatronType_R was trying to compare MS stubbornness to that of Nintendos...yes?

And as solid snake has mentioned to me on numerous occasions....Apparently it is proper etiquette to provide links here...As in links where you cite multiple sources claiming the PS4 pre-orders have a 4-1 advantage. By the way, we all know that the PS4 has a higher pre-order number, pre-orders for the PS4 were available months (2) before the XBX1 and then E3...which didnt help MS.

Yes, we will not have a clue until after the holidays. So we shall see...

Shame-usBlackley

What is the incentive? How about software makers, for starters? You do realize this year has been a fvcking train wreck for software sales, don't you? And the demand isn't there... the demand is only higher than the non-existent demand for the PS3... You should work for Microsoft, because your mindset is just like theirs -- beating Sony is all they cared about. They don't care about the industry. They don't care about software makers. They cared about beating Sony, plain and simple. So what if their hardware is selling half of what it did last year, and has been for the entire year, right? We beat Sony, right?

What is the incentive? How about precedent? How about understanding that other companies, ones that are far smarter than Microsoft have been in this business and there is an accepted pattern for price drops? Microsoft is trying to forge its own path, and that's commendable, but there's only one problem: IT ISN'T WORKING. Sales numbers are shit, both in hardware and software, and they've sat there with one hand's thumb up their ass, and the other one clapping themselves on the back. Fvcking clueless doesn't even begin to describe it. God help this business if these foolish bastards ever gain dominant marketshare. They are as dumb as a box of fvcking rocks. They could be selling three hundred thousand consoles a month, and completely revitalizing the flagging software market if they weren't too stupid to see the forest for the trees.

And please, $250 with 2 ancient games and a smaller drive... not anywhere near the deal a 500 gig drive with the biggest game of the year packed in for $20 more on a system that is a year older and was considered ancient two years ago. There's no agree to disagree about it... two old games versus arguably the biggest one this year (maybe of the generation), smaller drive, older hardware, and the PS3 comes with a free month of PS+. And even setting Sony aside, Microsoft has proven to be incredibly bad stewards of the market as they have put their own interests of keeping the price high and selling like shit instead of getting the price down, opening up new markets, and getting those new markets buying software. Tell me, how would you feel if you were making software about MS' strategy? How would you feel watching them gloat about hardware numbers that are half of what THEIR OWN NUMBERS were a year ago? Sound like a market leader to you, do they?

Microsoft and Nintendo are extremely alike. They both want to force their mindset on the market, and only back off once they get hammered for it. Both are (were in Nintendo's case, they've apparently seen the light) trying to bring more ruinous fortune on the industry with motion controls. Both are stubborn to drop the price on ancient hardware that is soon to be outdated completely by new hardware. Both have idiots running their divisions. They're not only as stubborn, they would make great business partners.

There's a thread on Neogaf someone forwarded me regarding the preorders. I'll see if I can find it. But seriously, it wasn't the two month headstart that hurt Microsoft, it was their fvcked up messaging, messaging they've been trying to beat away from their head like a big, smelly mask ever since they stunk the house up with it.

Well I suppose you are correct in terms of lower price points stimulating growth. At this point, since the 360 is considered ancient, MS should start giving away free 360's to stimulate even more growth than any reduction in price could do. Hey, MS is a billion dollar company, they can take the hit. Right?

You are correct, this has been a down year for software and hardware sales as well. Much of the decline has to do with the mere fact that we are on the cusp on a new console generation. Consumers are now focusing on the releases of the PS4 and Xbox One, and therefore opting to save their dollars for what is in store two months from now. It is neither in Sony's nor MS best interest to drastically lower the prices of their current consoles ahead of a next gen launch. Also keep in mind that the industry is cyclical,  and we are the slow part of the cycle. Much of that has to do with where we are in the life cycles of each console. The avergae life cycle is between 10-12 years before the  plug is pulled. We are almost that point now in this gen of consoles.

And this notion that MS does not care about the industry is based on what? Your own opinions and negative perceptions of MS intentions? Gaming is a hobby to you, but it is a business to both MS and Sony. Do you actually believe that for one minute, Sony does not want to beat MS? Sony has the same ideas and vision for the industry as MS. The message is the same, the delivery is different.

You mentioned precendent and an accepted pattern of price drops. Did I miss something, have they not dropped the price of the 360? Do they not offer a variety of bundles at different price points? Do they not offer subsidized versions of bundles as well? And where is Sony? Is Sony dramatically dropping prices that would be in line with your accepted pattern of drops? No, Sony is not exactly setting the world on fire with their price points either. Sure they are offering competitive bundles on Amazon, but at this point in the U.S., they are throwing everthing but the Kitchen at sink at MS to sell more consoles. MS is applying the same tactic in Europe with the Xbox One to increase pre-orders, with the bundleing of FIFA.

And how long has MS been selling like sh#t here in the U.S.? This last year for the most part. And it is not just a MS problem, it is the entire industry, as sales are down across the board. Is this MS fault? I just explained that much of the drop, has to do with the pending next generation of consoles. If I am a software developer, I am probably thinking about focusing my resources on next gen. If I am looking at the slide in numbers, I am probably also aware that this a natural trend as we get closer to next gen launches.

MS is like Nintendo now? Are you really serious? I find it hard to believe that you actually believe this. When the evidence suggest otherwise. Nintendo has shunned the direction that the industry is heading and has for sometime. They did not transition to CD's, DVD's or blu-ray formats. For years they shunned the idea of an online system for their consoles. They were even outsold by the orginal Xbox! And they have lost dev support from the largest dev in Electronic Arts.

To make claims that the division leaders for each company are idiots, again is a matter of opinion and based on emotion rather than facts or any real industry insight. If you believe that you can do a better job running these companies, by all means apply for Steve Ballmars job. You clearly have all the answers, as to why sales are lagging. Forget that lagging sales has to do with the obivious here, a pending next gen relaese and the focus of resources by developers to create next gen content. Lets just ignore the real reasons why companies run business's and where the industry is heading. Let us pound our fists on our keyboards and say to MS "Not on my watch buddy". ;)

Price drops are coming for all consoles in the fall, with the release of the PS4 and Xbox One. NPD believes that both Sony and MS will lower their current offering by $50 in time for the holidays.

Well I suppose you are correct in terms of lower price points stimulating growth. At this point, since the 360 is considered ancient, MS should start giving away free 360's to stimulate even more growth than any reduction in price could do. Hey, MS is a billion dollar company, they can take the hit. Right?

 

You are correct, this has been a down year for software and hardware sales as well. Much of the decline has to do with the mere fact that we are on the cusp on a new console generation. Consumers are now focusing on the releases of the PS4 and Xbox One, and therefore opting to save their dollars for what is in store two months from now. It is neither in Sony's nor MS best interest to drastically lower the prices of their current consoles ahead of a next gen launch. Also keep in mind that the industry is cyclical,  and we are the slow part of the cycle. Much of that has to do with where we are in the life cycles of each console. The avergae life cycle is between 10-12 years before the  plug is pulled. We are almost that point now in this gen of consoles.

And this notion that MS does not care about the industry is based on what? Your own opinions and negative perceptions of MS intentions? Gaming is a hobby to you, but it is a business to both MS and Sony. Do you actually believe that for one minute, Sony does not want to beat MS? Sony has the same ideas and vision for the industry as MS. The message is the same, the delivery is different.

You mentioned precendent and an accepted pattern of price drops. Did I miss something, have they not dropped the price of the 360? Do they not offer a variety of bundles at different price points? Do they not offer subsidized versions of bundles as well? And where is Sony? Is Sony dramatically dropping prices that would be in line with your accepted pattern of drops? No, Sony is not exactly setting the world on fire with their price points either. Sure they are offering competitive bundles on Amazon, but at this point in the U.S., they are throwing everthing but the Kitchen at sink at MS to sell more consoles. MS is applying the same tactic in Europe with the Xbox One to increase pre-orders, with the bundleing of FIFA.

And how long has MS been selling like sh#t here in the U.S.? This last year for the most part. And it is not just a MS problem, it is the entire industry, as sales are down across the board. Is this MS fault? I just explained that much of the drop, has to do with the pending next generation of consoles. If I am a software developer, I am probably thinking about focusing my resources on next gen. If I am looking at the slide in numbers, I am probably also aware that this a natural trend as we get closer to next gen launches.

MS is like Nintendo now? Are you really serious? I find it hard to believe that you actually believe this. When the evidence suggest otherwise. Nintendo has shunned the direction that the industry is heading and has for sometime. They did not transition to CD's, DVD's or blu-ray formats. For years they shunned the idea of an online system for their consoles. They were even outsold by the orginal Xbox! And they have lost dev support from the largest dev in Electronic Arts.

To make claims that the division leaders for each company are idiots, again is a matter of opinion and based on emotion rather than facts or any real industry insight. If you believe that you can do a better job running these companies, by all means apply for Steve Ballmars job. You clearly have all the answers, as to why sales are lagging. Forget that lagging sales has to do with the obivious here, a pending next gen relaese and the focus of resources by developers to create next gen content. Lets just ignore the real reasons why companies run business's and where the industry is heading. Let us pound our fists on our keyboards and say to MS "Not on my watch buddy". ;)

Price drops are coming for all consoles in the fall, with the release of the PS4 and Xbox One. NPD believes that both Sony and MS will lower their current offering by $50 in time for the holidays.

Areez

Nope, they can just drop the price within reasonable expectations of other hardware makers before them, and that would be fine. All they are proving right now is that they would be a terrible generational leader. They clearly have no concept of how this market works, and frankly, I don't think they ever will. Microsoft is always trying to be someone else. First they wanted to be Sony, now it's Nintendo. They have no clear vision for the market -- they just try to run with everyone else's model and then fall apart when they have to actually lead. 

As for the next generation being the reason for the slow sales, that's bullshit. First, the new consoles weren't even announced a year ago, so sail that shit somewhere else. Secondly, the PS2 sold 1.5 million units in December 2006, AFTER the PS3 was out, and a full YEAR after the 360 was released. So that's bullshit, too. The difference is that Sony understands (or understood back then) how to run a generational cycle, Microsoft does not. Using Sony as an excuse just buoys my argument that as Sony goes, so too does Microsoft, even though your analogy doesn't hold because Sony's hardware is not as old, and they are selling it for less money RIGHT NOW. That argument is bullshit as well -- I'm seeing a trend here. 

As for your assertion of "Blarg Blarg Blargity Blarg its a business" that would be fine if it was WORKING, but as I said, it isn't. The model from previous generations proved far more effective, and let's not bullshit each other here -- the money in this business is made off of software, not hardware. How is it good business to hold back entire markets from a platform and stunt software sales, pissing off and alienating software companies in the process? Try to sell me on that, I'd love to hear it!

And if you would like to take the stance that Microsoft isn't full of idiots in the Xbone division having seen the PR nightmare and complete reversal of concept on the product, then you are welcome to do so. Logic dictates otherwise, but I'm sure Reggie Fils Aime has his supporters/cheerleaders too. 

[QUOTE="Areez"]

Well I suppose you are correct in terms of lower price points stimulating growth. At this point, since the 360 is considered ancient, MS should start giving away free 360's to stimulate even more growth than any reduction in price could do. Hey, MS is a billion dollar company, they can take the hit. Right?

 

You are correct, this has been a down year for software and hardware sales as well. Much of the decline has to do with the mere fact that we are on the cusp on a new console generation. Consumers are now focusing on the releases of the PS4 and Xbox One, and therefore opting to save their dollars for what is in store two months from now. It is neither in Sony's nor MS best interest to drastically lower the prices of their current consoles ahead of a next gen launch. Also keep in mind that the industry is cyclical,  and we are the slow part of the cycle. Much of that has to do with where we are in the life cycles of each console. The avergae life cycle is between 10-12 years before the  plug is pulled. We are almost that point now in this gen of consoles.

And this notion that MS does not care about the industry is based on what? Your own opinions and negative perceptions of MS intentions? Gaming is a hobby to you, but it is a business to both MS and Sony. Do you actually believe that for one minute, Sony does not want to beat MS? Sony has the same ideas and vision for the industry as MS. The message is the same, the delivery is different.

You mentioned precendent and an accepted pattern of price drops. Did I miss something, have they not dropped the price of the 360? Do they not offer a variety of bundles at different price points? Do they not offer subsidized versions of bundles as well? And where is Sony? Is Sony dramatically dropping prices that would be in line with your accepted pattern of drops? No, Sony is not exactly setting the world on fire with their price points either. Sure they are offering competitive bundles on Amazon, but at this point in the U.S., they are throwing everthing but the Kitchen at sink at MS to sell more consoles. MS is applying the same tactic in Europe with the Xbox One to increase pre-orders, with the bundleing of FIFA.

And how long has MS been selling like sh#t here in the U.S.? This last year for the most part. And it is not just a MS problem, it is the entire industry, as sales are down across the board. Is this MS fault? I just explained that much of the drop, has to do with the pending next generation of consoles. If I am a software developer, I am probably thinking about focusing my resources on next gen. If I am looking at the slide in numbers, I am probably also aware that this a natural trend as we get closer to next gen launches.

MS is like Nintendo now? Are you really serious? I find it hard to believe that you actually believe this. When the evidence suggest otherwise. Nintendo has shunned the direction that the industry is heading and has for sometime. They did not transition to CD's, DVD's or blu-ray formats. For years they shunned the idea of an online system for their consoles. They were even outsold by the orginal Xbox! And they have lost dev support from the largest dev in Electronic Arts.

To make claims that the division leaders for each company are idiots, again is a matter of opinion and based on emotion rather than facts or any real industry insight. If you believe that you can do a better job running these companies, by all means apply for Steve Ballmars job. You clearly have all the answers, as to why sales are lagging. Forget that lagging sales has to do with the obivious here, a pending next gen relaese and the focus of resources by developers to create next gen content. Lets just ignore the real reasons why companies run business's and where the industry is heading. Let us pound our fists on our keyboards and say to MS "Not on my watch buddy". ;)

Price drops are coming for all consoles in the fall, with the release of the PS4 and Xbox One. NPD believes that both Sony and MS will lower their current offering by $50 in time for the holidays.

Shame-usBlackley

Nope, they can just drop the price within reasonable expectations of other hardware makers before them, and that would be fine. All they are proving right now is that they would be a terrible generational leader. They clearly have no concept of how this market works, and frankly, I don't think they ever will. Microsoft is always trying to be someone else. First they wanted to be Sony, now it's Nintendo. They have no clear vision for the market -- they just try to run with everyone else's model and then fall apart when they have to actually lead. 

As for the next generation being the reason for the slow sales, that's bullshit. First, the new consoles weren't even announced a year ago, so sail that shit somewhere else. Secondly, the PS2 sold 1.5 million units in December 2006, AFTER the PS3 was out, and a full YEAR after the 360 was released. So that's bullshit, too. The difference is that Sony understands (or understood back then) how to run a generational cycle, Microsoft does not. Using Sony as an excuse just buoys my argument that as Sony goes, so too does Microsoft, even though your analogy doesn't hold because Sony's hardware is not as old, and they are selling it for less money RIGHT NOW. That argument is bullshit as well -- I'm seeing a trend here. 

As for your assertion of "Blarg Blarg Blargity Blarg its a business" that would be fine if it was WORKING, but as I said, it isn't. The model from previous generations proved far more effective, and let's not bullshit each other here -- the money in this business is made off of software, not hardware. How is it good business to hold back entire markets from a platform and stunt software sales, pissing off and alienating software companies in the process? Try to sell me on that, I'd love to hear it!

And if you would like to take the stance that Microsoft isn't full of idiots in the Xbone division having seen the PR nightmare and complete reversal of concept on the product, then you are welcome to do so. Logic dictates otherwise, but I'm sure Reggie Fils Aime has his supporters/cheerleaders too. 

The decline in hardware and to an extent software is the reflection of a very mature console market. This happens when you are at the end of a console gen cycle,  as we have been for some time now. Although the lack of big titles and free to play software on mobile devices could have impact as well.

To mock the buisness aspect of the industry and to say what MS is doing is not working,  is not accurate, given where we are in the cycle. To my knowledge, MS is still generating revenue, despite the decline in sales. And as I addressed earlier, it is not just MS but an entire indusrty in decline. Again because of where we are in the cycle this console gen. The industry is cyclical but for whatever reason you choose to neglect these facts.

And to say that as Sony goes, so does MS. Is not entirely true either.  Was it MS who half asses online gaming for so many years? Was it not Sony who finally decided to have PC based architecture,  similar to the competition? Either way, I am sure both have borrowed certain ideas from one another. 

Has MS made its share of mistakes, sure they have with Xbox One. However, they did reverse many of the unpopular features. I might add that they are not the first nor last company to reverse unpopular decisions.  And to say that MS lacks vision because they reversed their DRM policies is again not entirely true. They only delayed the inevitable as the industry moves closer to digtal content. Their vision of the industry is no different than Sony's. They want their device to be the center of your overall entertainment experience.  Essentially offering a convergence of tech and services as we see in other devices such as smart phones. 

And what software developers has MS alienated and pissed off do to their current pricing? Was their a news story about this here at Gamespot?

I have noticed that you insist on calling any facts presented to you as BS. Which would be fine if your own counterpoints had some facts behind them. Clearly MS has burned you and fir whatever reason you assume that how you feel represents how all gamers feel. On that note if you are really interested in learning about industry trends etc....try following Lewis Ward on twitter, he is an industry analyst for IDC. ZACKS equity research is another good site too. 

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="Areez"]

Nope, they can just drop the price within reasonable expectations of other hardware makers before them, and that would be fine. All they are proving right now is that they would be a terrible generational leader. They clearly have no concept of how this market works, and frankly, I don't think they ever will. Microsoft is always trying to be someone else. First they wanted to be Sony, now it's Nintendo. They have no clear vision for the market -- they just try to run with everyone else's model and then fall apart when they have to actually lead. 

As for the next generation being the reason for the slow sales, that's bullshit. First, the new consoles weren't even announced a year ago, so sail that shit somewhere else. Secondly, the PS2 sold 1.5 million units in December 2006, AFTER the PS3 was out, and a full YEAR after the 360 was released. So that's bullshit, too. The difference is that Sony understands (or understood back then) how to run a generational cycle, Microsoft does not. Using Sony as an excuse just buoys my argument that as Sony goes, so too does Microsoft, even though your analogy doesn't hold because Sony's hardware is not as old, and they are selling it for less money RIGHT NOW. That argument is bullshit as well -- I'm seeing a trend here. 

As for your assertion of "Blarg Blarg Blargity Blarg its a business" that would be fine if it was WORKING, but as I said, it isn't. The model from previous generations proved far more effective, and let's not bullshit each other here -- the money in this business is made off of software, not hardware. How is it good business to hold back entire markets from a platform and stunt software sales, pissing off and alienating software companies in the process? Try to sell me on that, I'd love to hear it!

And if you would like to take the stance that Microsoft isn't full of idiots in the Xbone division having seen the PR nightmare and complete reversal of concept on the product, then you are welcome to do so. Logic dictates otherwise, but I'm sure Reggie Fils Aime has his supporters/cheerleaders too. 

Areez

The decline in hardware and to an extent software is the reflection of a very mature console market. This happens when you are at the end of a console gen cycle,  as we have been for some time now. Although the lack of big titles and free to play software on mobile devices could have impact as well.

To mock the buisness aspect of the industry and to say what MS is doing is not working,  is not accurate, given where we are in the cycle. To my knowledge, MS is still generating revenue, despite the decline in sales. And as I addressed earlier, it is not just MS but an entire indusrty in decline. Again because of where we are in the cycle this console gen. The industry is cyclical but for whatever reason you choose to neglect these facts.

And to say that as Sony goes, so does MS. Is not entirely true either.  Was it MS who half asses online gaming for so many years? Was it not Sony who finally decided to have PC based architecture,  similar to the competition? Either way, I am sure both have borrowed certain ideas from one another. 

Has MS made its share of mistakes, sure they have with Xbox One. However, they did reverse many of the unpopular features. I might add that they are not the first nor last company to reverse unpopular decisions.  And to say that MS lacks vision because they reversed their DRM policies is again not entirely true. They only delayed the inevitable as the industry moves closer to digtal content. Their vision of the industry is no different than Sony's. They want their device to be the center of your overall entertainment experience.  Essentially offering a convergence of tech and services as we see in other devices such as smart phones. 

And what software developers has MS alienated and pissed off do to their current pricing? Was their a news story about this here at Gamespot?

I have noticed that you insist on calling any facts presented to you as BS. Which would be fine if your own counterpoints had some facts behind them. Clearly MS has burned you and fir whatever reason you assume that how you feel represents how all gamers feel. On that note if you are really interested in learning about industry trends etc....try following Lewis Ward on twitter, he is an industry analyst for IDC. ZACKS equity research is another good site too. 

I just gave you hard evidence that systems don't wither out and die as they age if they are handled properly. The PS2 moved another 50 million units from the point when the successive generation came. You just aren't looking at historical evidence. New markets completely open up to consoles as they hit $150, $129, and $99. Microsoft is still three or four price drops from reaching those numbers. The platform will not even likely reach half of those, not while it is still viable anyway. 

I mock them because they are worthy of being mocked. On top of being good for the industry, Microsoft makes a ton of money when software sales are healthy on their platform. Just because you haven't heard developers picketing in the streets over the 360's poor handling, that this means they are completely happy with how things are. For you to assume that at lower prices, more hardware would not be sold, and thus more software along with it, AND that software developers are both not cognizant of this fact AND assume they are fine with it is both ridiculous and ignorant. We have heard developers bitch and bitch about how expensive and risky it is to make games, and here you are, trying to defend a company holding back those budget markets which history has shown time and again are crucial to the industry and the platform. 

It's simply a matter of economics. Software is a complementary good for hardware. When the demand curve of hardware shifts outward due to a drop in price, the demand curve for software also shifts out. Knowing this, and knowing that the 360 is ancient and has to be dirt cheap to make, do you honestly believe developers are happy with Microsoft keeping the price artificially high?

I don't feel burned by Microsoft, as I've pointed out before, the 360 was my system of choice this generation. But seeing where Microsoft wants to take the hobby, and what they tried to do forcefully, I have concluded they are a negative force in the market if they are to continue down the road they just had to divert from, as you say they are, and I have no reason to doubt that. I believe Microsoft has a "we know what's good for you" mindset, and that mindset is insulting and dangerous. I believe the policies we just beat back will come back, slowly meted out and marketed more carefully. That alone is reason enough for me to wish to see them exit the industry.

You mean this guy?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfQVFsWVHs

Yeah, he agrees with me. He believes the $100 difference is going to set Sony up to win the next generation. But industry analysts don't really mean anything to me -- as I have pointd out before there were plenty of analysts who forecast the PS3 to dominate this generation. I believe in what I'm seeing and what I've seen. There are economic forces at play here that are coupled with historical trends that back up what I am saying. I am going to enjoy the show in here come December. :)

What's odd is that you had this to say about Mr. Ward:

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC. 

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point. 

Areez

This is odd considering that at the very end of the video here (5:25), he asserts the PS4 is set up for a win. So one of you clearly isn't consistent in his predictions.... based on what I've seen out of the two of you, I'd place my money on Mr. Ward being more reliable, but then again, I don't place much faith in analysts. You do, however, so I suggest you go write a stern letter to Mr. Ward correcting him for all his wrong-headed ways! Perhaps you can convince him otherwise? :)

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

The decline in hardware and to an extent software is the reflection of a very mature console market. This happens when you are at the end of a console gen cycle,  as we have been for some time now. Although the lack of big titles and free to play software on mobile devices could have impact as well.

To mock the buisness aspect of the industry and to say what MS is doing is not working,  is not accurate, given where we are in the cycle. To my knowledge, MS is still generating revenue, despite the decline in sales. And as I addressed earlier, it is not just MS but an entire indusrty in decline. Again because of where we are in the cycle this console gen. The industry is cyclical but for whatever reason you choose to neglect these facts.

And to say that as Sony goes, so does MS. Is not entirely true either.  Was it MS who half asses online gaming for so many years? Was it not Sony who finally decided to have PC based architecture,  similar to the competition? Either way, I am sure both have borrowed certain ideas from one another. 

Has MS made its share of mistakes, sure they have with Xbox One. However, they did reverse many of the unpopular features. I might add that they are not the first nor last company to reverse unpopular decisions.  And to say that MS lacks vision because they reversed their DRM policies is again not entirely true. They only delayed the inevitable as the industry moves closer to digtal content. Their vision of the industry is no different than Sony's. They want their device to be the center of your overall entertainment experience.  Essentially offering a convergence of tech and services as we see in other devices such as smart phones. 

And what software developers has MS alienated and pissed off do to their current pricing? Was their a news story about this here at Gamespot?

I have noticed that you insist on calling any facts presented to you as BS. Which would be fine if your own counterpoints had some facts behind them. Clearly MS has burned you and fir whatever reason you assume that how you feel represents how all gamers feel. On that note if you are really interested in learning about industry trends etc....try following Lewis Ward on twitter, he is an industry analyst for IDC. ZACKS equity research is another good site too. 

Shame-usBlackley

I just gave you hard evidence that systems don't wither out and die as they age if they are handled properly. The PS2 moved another 50 million units from the point when the successive generation came. You just aren't looking at historical evidence. New markets completely open up to consoles as they hit $150, $129, and $99. Microsoft is still three or four price drops from reaching those numbers. The platform will not even likely reach half of those, not while it is still viable anyway. 

I mock them because they are worthy of being mocked. On top of being good for the industry, Microsoft makes a ton of money when software sales are healthy on their platform. For you to assume that because you haven't heard developers picketing in the streets over the 360's poor handling, that this means they are completely happy with how things are. For you to assume that at lower prices, more hardware would not be sold, and thus more software along with it, AND that software developers are both not cognizant of this fact AND assume they are fine with it is ridiculous. We have heard developers bitch and bitch about how expensive and risky it is to make games, and here you are, trying to defend a company holding back those budget markets which history has shown time and again are crucial to the industry and the platform. 

It's simply a matter of economics. Software is a complementary good for hardware. When the demand curve of hardware shifts outward due to a drop in price, the demand curve for software also shifts out. Knowing this, and knowing that the 360 is ancient and has to be dirt cheap to make, do you honestly believe developers are happy with this?

I don't feel burned by Microsoft, as I've pointed out before, the 360 was my system of choice this generation. But seeing where Microsoft wants to take the hobby, and what they tried to do forcefully, I have concluded they are a negative force in the market, if they are to continue down the road they just had to divert from, as you say they are, and I have no reason to doubt that. 

You mean this guy?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlfQVFsWVHs

Yeah, he agrees with me. He believes the $100 difference is going to set Sony up to win the next generation. But industry analysts don't really mean anything to me -- as I have pointd out before there were plenty of analysts who forecast the PS3 to dominate this generation. I believe in what I'm seeing and what I've seen. There are economic forces at play here that are coupled with historical trends that back up what I am saying. I am going to enjoy the show in here come December. :)

What's odd is that you had this to say about Mr. Ward:

I think people are putting way to much stock into the $100 price point, especially here in United States. In Europe, yes it is probably more of a factor. I am of the same opinion as Lewis Ward, gaming industry analyst for IDC. 

Lewis believes that MS has done such a great job executing here in the U.S the last two years, that Sony will have hard time stopping that momentum out of the gate. And that the Xbox One will out sell the PS4 by the end of Q4 2013. Although, globaly he believes the PS4 will be a bit stronger out of the gate at this point. 

Areez

This is odd considering that at the very end of the video here (5:25), he asserts the PS4 is set up for a win. So one of you clearly isn't consistent in his predictions.... based on what I've seen out of the two of you, I'd place my money on Mr. Ward being more reliable, but then again, I don't place much faith in analysts. You do, however, so I suggest you go write a stern letter to Mr. Ward correcting him for all his wrong-headed ways! Perhaps you can convince him otherwise? :)

I am assuming that developers are not angry at MS because I have not read anything that states otherwise.  

I also never stated that MS was going to flat out win this generation.  What I did state was my agreement of what Ward had said about holiday 2013 here in the U.S. Which was taken from a recent GamesBeat article, that took place after the E3 interview you linked. My assertion that the $100 difference was not going to be a huge deal in U.S. is my own opinion,  and not Wards. Although I do agree, that globally the PS4 will lead,  as they are now. I do not believe that will be yhe case here in the U.S. As Ward has indicated in his analysis after the E3 interview you posted.

Also....The article I reference was in regard to Q4 and not the entire console generation. BAH! I wish I could post the link through my phone, but for whatever reason I cannot.

A couple things regarding console management.  Both MS and Sony are going to drop the prices of their consoles for the holiday. Both the 360 and PS3 will be supported for a few more years into the new gen. This generation is unique because we did not see the next gen releases five years after the 360 and PS4.

What I do not agree with, is the notion that the decline in hardware and software sales is, all of Microsofts fault. And that game developers ate all of the sudden pissed at them. Yes,  lower prices will help, but the timing must be right prior to the release of the next gen.

A lot of gamers still have all this controversy stuff in their head too about all the DRM crap that was recent. They started righting the ship here but I think the damage will still have an impact on holiday sales, as well as the price.GodModeEnabled

A couple things regarding console management.  Both MS and Sony are going to drop the prices of their consoles for the holiday. Both the 360 and PS3 will be supported for a few more years into the new gen.Areez

Here's my thing on the whole situation. If they have already started shipping the Xbox One why doesn't Walmart have one on display?RimacBugatti

When anyone can readily walk into a store and absolutely expect it to be there? Probably mid to late February.

Conversely, the PS4 will sell well enough that it will not be readily available until April 2014 at the earliest. Like the PS2, it will take months for supply to catch up with demand. Sony will not entertain a price cut for at least 2 years, maybe more.GalvatronType_R

If Sony hits their manufacturing targets PS4s should be readily available well before April even if it is the fastest selling system ever made. Also, if Sony is bright they will aggressively and quickly cut costs the way they did in the PS1 and PS2 eras. High prices help push the age of the average gamer up (the more expensive a toy is the slower parents are to buy it for their kids) and that's not a good direction to go in.