Games are Immature

Are they?
I just read David Cage's comment concerning the industry. But what is a 'mature' game? and how does he define it? imo his own comment is quite revealing. He refers to Peter Pan as 'immature' - well sure its a childrens story but is it not also intelligent and full of interesting themes? assuredly.

I think his comment is a symptom of what has already happened in literature: 'intelligent' and 'mature' art has been redefined to mean 'egocentric', 'pedantic' and microcosmic. Ie if a game/book does not concern itself with human psychology, relationships or family ties it isn't 'mature' or intelligent. This is, in essence, postmodernism and is being heralded + maintained by an ever increasing amount of selfcentered, neo-feminist, pre-menstrual female authors - like Fay Wheldon.
Personally i'd argue that a significant part of fantasy and sci-fi is more intelligent. Within literature i can think of The Lord of The Rings, The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Scott Bakker's somewhat dense books and alot more. Within sci-fi there is Dan Simmons, Greg Bears and several others that i have yet to read (i primarily read fantasy) Common to such literature is a focus on the macrocosmic, the rise and fall of empires, the formation and migration of culture and a contemplation upon religion and magic. In particular LOTR contained a critique of the modern age and a worship of the pre-industrial beauty in nature. My point is this: How is THIS less intelligent than book nr. fivehundredandtwentythree by pissed-off-self-possesed-female number twohundred once again concerning 'why i hate men and what i do about it'.
Is this what David Cage wants to see in gaming!? dear god i hope not. I dont see why themes of family, psychology and relationships should be any better than themes of religion, mythology and culture (stuff that nerds like us thrives upon and that drove Dungeons and dragons + warhammer forward)
Dont get me wrong - there is far too much CoD and shoot-this-and-get-an-achievement within gaming today. But i dont want to see more 'Heavy Rain' -
I want to see more Dark Souls, Journey etc. Dont let this stuff die just because some self obsessed chick with a degree in english literature and psychology tells you it isn't 'mature'. Guess what? Tolkien was a Professor of Anglo-Saxon, how is that not 'mature' or 'intelligent'?

You do have a point - But a game does not neccesarily have to be storydriven to be intellectually mature. The DayZ mod for ARMA 2 is a good example of this. Also games like the Total War series are, i would argue, per definition intelligent entertainment. They certainly fueled my love for history, just like Warcraft and WoW fueled my interest in mythology and polytheistic religions.
I really believe the problem here is one of racism - Some people would write all this off simply because they themselves prefer the more pedantic themes in art.

If Cage's idea of "mature" games are ones like Heavy Rain or Beyond Two Souls, forget it. He makes interactive movies, not games.

Also I think to say games are immature is a broad and sweeping generalization that doesn't accurately describe the industry. Yes, some games do come across as immature - a recent example of this being Hitman: Absolution's trailer with the "sexy" nun assassins - but many other games do come across as mature to me. Red Dead Redemption, The Witcher 2, and Bioshock just to name a few off the top of my head.

I hate it when stories try to be deep and though provoking but forgetting the tale of the story. I think it is immature to think you have a deep message and that is the only part of the story you focus on.

Video games are about problem solving. CoD is about thinking through to handles the groups of the enemies.

Thing like planning ahead and quick thinking are the things that games encourage the best. My point is that video games can be very mature in problem solving.

I have never played Heavy rain but from what I seen of it seem to be a more immature video game than CoD.

It'd be more correct to say that "some" games are immature, like Borderlands. It's just an over the top, inappropriate good time. However, others are very mature, like Silent Hill 2 or Shattered Memories, or even E rated games like Majora's Mask and Radiant Historia. Games can be very mature, or immature. There's a place for both types. It's far too general and sterotypical to say all games are immature.

Well said on the whole. It's kind of the same thing with movies, not as much with books. If someone says something about a movie being intelligent or mature, it seems they generally are referring to the "arty" type movies like The Fountain or 8.5. It's just a side effect of being human. People want something to make themselves feel better or special. Personally, I think Mr. Cage should be looking at The Walking Dead if he wants to see a "mature" game that is also an engaging experience without tripping over gameplay. I just finished the first episode of that and was very impressed.guynamedbilly

I just think that we, as gamers, should watch out and not 'stand down' and 'surrender' like literature did. Literature let postmodernism take over - and now it is coming to flood gaming too (right now heralded by Mr. Cage) we shouldnt let these morons define 'maturity' and 'intelligence'. We should be proud of our D&D and Warhammer - If we are not, we may end up like litterature did.

Sorry to double-post. I should probably define what i mean with 'intellectually mature' games. I think a game is mature and intelligent when it has RELEVANT point which it is trying to make. A message to convey so to speak.
I'd argue that The Elder Scrolls: Oblivion and Skyrim, while having a so-so story, is still intellectually mature because it - like Tolkien - wants you to be awed by natural beauty. It pedestalizes the 'natural' and the 'grandeur of nature' and this is definitely an intelligent message to get across to people.
Likewise BioShock and Deus Ex are both examples of transhumanism in gaming - While i'd argue that BioShock is the more dystopic of the two while Deus Ex seems more focused on the good aspects of it. In other words these games concern themselves with our future as a species - something that is assuredly relevant and important to think about.

Well gamers are an immature bunch, by and large. Just walk into any Gamestop - I guarantee you won't find it filled with adults. And developers know this. They're not going to try to sell Shakespeare to 15 year old's.

I do wish games didn't have to be quite so immature though. For instance I'm currently playing Final Fantasy XIII-2, and the moral of the story, that immortality is the greatest curse that could be inflicted upon a person, is actually quite mature. But all the dialogue in the game is on the level of an After School Special - there's no depth or maturity to it at all (and don't even get me started on that damned moogle). And I don't see any reason for that. I think even young people would enjoy characters that speak and interact with each other in a more realistic and believable manner.

Games like all other type of stories are be mature in parts but also immature in other parts.

Look at the Dark Knight Rises it is mature in ways but also immature in ways.

I don't agree with his comment entirely. Sure, Heavy Rain and Beyond have mature storylines, but many other games are mature in story execution and gameplay not featuring gore for gores sake.

Are they?
I just read David Cage's comment concerning the industry. But what is a 'mature' game? and how does he define it? imo his own comment is quite revealing. He refers to Peter Pan as 'immature' - well sure its a childrens story but is it not also intelligent and full of interesting themes? assuredly.

I think his comment is a symptom of what has already happened in literature: 'intelligent' and 'mature' art has been redefined to mean 'egocentric', 'pedantic' and microcosmic. Ie if a game/book does not concern itself with human psychology, relationships or family ties it isn't 'mature' or intelligent. This is, in essence, postmodernism and is being heralded + maintained by an ever increasing amount of selfcentered, neo-feminist, pre-menstrual female authors - like Fay Wheldon.
Personally i'd argue that a significant part of fantasy and sci-fi is more intelligent. Within literature i can think of The Lord of The Rings, The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Scott Bakker's somewhat dense books and alot more. Within sci-fi there is Dan Simmons, Greg Bears and several others that i have yet to read (i primarily read fantasy) Common to such literature is a focus on the macrocosmic, the rise and fall of empires, the formation and migration of culture and a contemplation upon religion and magic. In particular LOTR contained a critique of the modern age and a worship of the pre-industrial beauty in nature. My point is this: How is THIS less intelligent than book nr. fivehundredandtwentythree by pissed-off-self-possesed-female number twohundred once again concerning 'why i hate men and what i do about it'.
Is this what David Cage wants to see in gaming!? dear god i hope not. I dont see why themes of family, psychology and relationships should be any better than themes of religion, mythology and culture (stuff that nerds like us thrives upon and that drove Dungeons and dragons + warhammer forward)
Dont get me wrong - there is far too much CoD and shoot-this-and-get-an-achievement within gaming today. But i dont want to see more 'Heavy Rain' -
I want to see more Dark Souls, Journey etc. Dont let this stuff die just because some self obsessed chick with a degree in english literature and psychology tells you it isn't 'mature'. Guess what? Tolkien was a Professor of Anglo-Saxon, how is that not 'mature' or 'intelligent'?

gufberg

The TC must be dealing with some serious issues involving women in his personal life.

Did no one notice that the TC's claims about what Cage said bore no relation to what Cage actually said? Gamasutra didn't post the whole interview, but here is what they did post.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/176082/Heavy_Rain_director_tells_game_industry_its_time_to_grow_up.php

"I think we should have more courage in our industry and take more risks, because I think this is what the industry needs now. I mean, how many first person shooters can you make? How many monsters/aliens/zombies can you kill in games? There's a moment where we need to grow up. We need to grow up," Cage told Gamasutra.
"I often think that the industry suffers of the Peter Pan syndrome. It's the fact that we don't want to grow up, so we stay kids. But there is a moment where you need to grow up as an industry. And you cannot keep up with the Peter Pan syndrome. You need to grow. And I think this is the right time," he said.

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]Well said on the whole. It's kind of the same thing with movies, not as much with books. If someone says something about a movie being intelligent or mature, it seems they generally are referring to the "arty" type movies like The Fountain or 8.5. It's just a side effect of being human. People want something to make themselves feel better or special. Personally, I think Mr. Cage should be looking at The Walking Dead if he wants to see a "mature" game that is also an engaging experience without tripping over gameplay. I just finished the first episode of that and was very impressed.gufberg

I just think that we, as gamers, should watch out and not 'stand down' and 'surrender' like literature did. Literature let postmodernism take over - and now it is coming to flood gaming too (right now heralded by Mr. Cage) we shouldnt let these morons define 'maturity' and 'intelligence'. We should be proud of our D&D and Warhammer - If we are not, we may end up like litterature did.

Do you read modern fantasy novels? I read more than I game and there's quite a bit of excellent fantasy being written (which I'm sure I'm catching only a fraction of, since I tend to find authors and then stick with them). Think Glen Cook, George RR Martin and Richard Lee Byers.

[QUOTE="gufberg"]

[QUOTE="guynamedbilly"]Well said on the whole. It's kind of the same thing with movies, not as much with books. If someone says something about a movie being intelligent or mature, it seems they generally are referring to the "arty" type movies like The Fountain or 8.5. It's just a side effect of being human. People want something to make themselves feel better or special. Personally, I think Mr. Cage should be looking at The Walking Dead if he wants to see a "mature" game that is also an engaging experience without tripping over gameplay. I just finished the first episode of that and was very impressed.CarnageHeart

I just think that we, as gamers, should watch out and not 'stand down' and 'surrender' like literature did. Literature let postmodernism take over - and now it is coming to flood gaming too (right now heralded by Mr. Cage) we shouldnt let these morons define 'maturity' and 'intelligence'. We should be proud of our D&D and Warhammer - If we are not, we may end up like litterature did.

Do you read modern fantasy novels? I read more than I game and there's quite a bit of excellent fantasy being written (which I'm sure I'm catching only a fraction of, since I tend to find authors and then stick with them). Think Glen Cook, George RR Martin and Richard Lee Byers.

I'm not sure you understand what i wrote. I dont misrepresent what Cage said i draw parallels between what has happened in literature and what is maybe about to happen in gaming.
Concerning modern fantasy: I read alot of modern fantasy - but i think you missed my point. My point is that mainstream academia frown upon the genre as a whole for not being 'intelligent' or 'mature' their definition of these two words does not allow for the themes that fantasy has traditionally explored and continues to. I dont find George Martin particularily intelligent though. The man makes amazing plots and has a great characterization - but in terms of philosophy the books hasn't got much going for them imo.

LOL...

he wasnt making any judgement on peter pan :P he was referring to puer aeternus.

anyway, i agree that there are a lot of immature games. does that make video games less mature than other media with mainstream success? i dont think there is much disparity. there are mature films and there are also a lot of films about explosions, spectacle, and sophomoric sexual obsession. there are mature musicians and there are chauvinistic guitar masturbators, musicians who glorify gang culture, and tweeny pop stars singing about their first kiss.

the important part is that there are mature games out there along with other stuff that deserves a place as well. they just arent all desperately humping the leg of cinema.

he wasnt making any judgement on peter pan :P he was referring to puer aeternus.

anyway, i agree that there are a lot of immature games. does that make video games less mature than other media with mainstream success? i dont think there is much disparity. there are mature films and there are also a lot of films about explosions, spectacle, and sophomoric sexual obsession. there are mature musicians and there are chauvinistic guitar masturbators, musicians who glorify gang culture, and tweeny pop stars singing about their first kiss.

the important part is that there are mature games out there along with other stuff that deserves a place as well. they just arent all desperately humping the leg of cinema.

LoG-Sacrament

:evil: You're suggesting the TC misunderstood something he read?! Clearly sir, you are the one who misunderstands the TC!

He criticizes the industry for having too many FPS, when all I've seen from him is two really samey barely playable movie games with bad stories and terrible characters. Oh and he puts teh b00bies in his games, so I guess that's mature. At least as mature as the average internet porn site. David Cage is as much a useless talking head as Peter Molyneux or David Jaffe. All of them are hacks in love with the sound of their own voices.

Dialogue from the "mature" Heavy Rain

"Son, would you like a snack?"

"Yes I would love a snack"

"I'll put your snack in the microwave"

"Your snacksready"

"Thanks for the snack"

Most emotional game evar!

You do have a point - But a game does not neccesarily have to be storydriven to be intellectually mature. The DayZ mod for ARMA 2 is a good example of this. Also games like the Total War series are, i would argue, per definition intelligent entertainment. They certainly fueled my love for history, just like Warcraft and WoW fueled my interest in mythology and polytheistic religions.
I really believe the problem here is one of racism - Some people would write all this off simply because they themselves prefer the more pedantic themes in art.

gufberg

jesus christ..

why do ppl have to say things in such a complicated manner on the internet?

feels like im reading Advanced English Literature.

He criticizes the industry for having too many FPS, when all I've seen from him is two really samey barely playable movie games with bad stories and terrible characters. Oh and he puts teh b00bies in his games, so I guess that's mature. At least as mature as the average internet porn site. David Cage is as much a useless talking head as Peter Molyneux or David Jaffe. All of them are hacks in love with the sound of their own voices.

SteveTabernacle

At no point has David Cage ever stated that mature content equals mature game. In other interviews he's praised the work of Team Ico and thatgamecompany, neither of which have ever made a game with mature content. On a related note, he's stated that the industry needs to offer a broader range of games, but he doesn't want the existing categories of games to go away. What is objectionable about that?

I know I am

Games just need to be fun. I don't care if they are "mature" or not.

That being said, there are some games that are so immature that I don't want to play them. An example of this is Duke Nukem Forever.

I realize now that i completely misunderstood Cage's Peter-Pan reference. Sorry about that - though it doesn't change my point.

The 'snack' comment is by the way completely hilarious - This pretty much sums up the action in modern danish literature at least (im danish). I can already hear my teacher bait us " .. Maybe the SNACK is a SYMBOL of something!"

Ofcourse the gaming community is totally different from the average book reader - It may, fortunatly, not be possible to redirect gaming in a postmodern direction.

he wasnt making any judgement on peter pan :P he was referring to puer aeternus.

anyway, i agree that there are a lot of immature games. does that make video games less mature than other media with mainstream success? i dont think there is much disparity. there are mature films and there are also a lot of films about explosions, spectacle, and sophomoric sexual obsession. there are mature musicians and there are chauvinistic guitar masturbators, musicians who glorify gang culture, and tweeny pop stars singing about their first kiss.

the important part is that there are mature games out there along with other stuff that deserves a place as well. they just arent all desperately humping the leg of cinema.

LoG-Sacrament